Mr. Asterik (aka Barry Bonds) breaks the record

[RTSDaddy2]

I wasn't 100 percent sure if this should be here or in politics...we'll try here...feel free to move it if need be.

Thank god this is over.  All the Bonds supporters can now cheerfully gloat and claim this juiced up dude as the new home run king.  Whoopee.

There is only ONE true king of home runs and his name is Henry "Hank" Aaron. Period. This is one you'll never change my mind on, so don't even bother to try.  All the flaming posts in the world will never convince me that Aaron isn't a better player than Bonds.

I have heard it said that McGwire and Sosa's single season run records need asteriks also.  I agree - anyone of these blowhards that made it through the steroid era of baseball needs asteriks by ANY record they tied or broke. 

To those that say Bonds never used the stuff, I say come on - has anybody seen the footage of him in a pirates uniform when he started out, verses today in a Giants uniform. What? You're telling me that's just fat / old age? Yeah, whatever.  If that's the case, then give me a contract - I'm in at least as good a shape as he is right now, and we're not that many years apart in age (I'm a tad younger, I think, at 39).

There will also be those that say Aaron should have been there.  I say to the devil with that.  Henry Aaron owes not one single person a blasted thing.  Where were all of you when he was receiving death threats during his run?  Bonds has no clue - NOT ONE - of what Aaron went through.  This "steroid investigation" pales in comparison to what Aaron endured.  I know you Bonds lovers cannot stand that, but it's true. Finally, come to grips with this: Bond's record will stand at best only 8 to 10 years before A-Rod breaks it at the clip he's going right now (if he stays healthy) - a paltry number compared to Ruth and Aaron.

At any rate, it's finally over and now the sports world can FINALLY focus on something else...like SEC football (go Dawgs), or hockey, or something such as that.

Whew....(pant, pant, pant)....Boy, do I know how to make friends or what?   

[billf]

I agree with your post in its entirety RTS.

Below is what I posted in the other Bonds thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69108.0

Well Barry passed Aaron tonight.  I didn't see it happen, but apparently they ran a taped message from Aaron on the stadium board.  Here is what he said:

"It is a great accomplishment which required skill, longevity and determination."

"Throughout the past century, the home run has held a special place in baseball and I have been privileged to hold this record for 33 of those years. I move over now and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historic achievement."

"My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams."

Aaron is a class act.

[RTSDaddy2]

Well, I feel a bit idiotic for starting a second thread on this...what with the previous one not more than two-three notches down.  Sorry, it must have been the steroids acting up. Well, not really....I mean, you know I didn't know what was in that pill the wife gave me.  Guess that was why I was awake at 4 AM crowing like a rooster.  But I really didn't know what it was...   

[patrickl]

I didn't know what was in that pill the wife gave me.  Guess that was why I was awake at 4 AM crowing like a rooster

Hey, we don't need to know what you and your wife are doing at 4AM after she slipped you some Viagra

[Malenko]

Where were all of you when he was receiving death threats during his run?

Lets see 1974...... I was still sperm in my dad's sack.

Speaking of ball bags, who exactly cares about Barry Bonds anymore?

[shardian]

I don't care that he broke the record. It is sad really because he was a GREAT baseball player regardless of his personality and I respected him before the steroids as a ball player. Why he felt the need to juice up I'll never know. He was already bound for the hall and had nothing to prove other than what he was already proving. He is the only member of the 500-500 club, and he would have achieved that regardless of the 'roids. I would totally give him 40 a year during the roid era even without the roids because at that point in his career he would most likely be turning from speed to heavy lifting anyways. The guy has a beautiful swing and a great eye. He has a near .300 career average. He could have taken his place as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, ever with pride. Instead, his legacy is bloated and tainted. It is truly sad that Aaron had to give a video message instead of being there to congratulate Bonds. For goodness sakes, he was bred for greatness. Frikking Willie Mays is his Frikkin Godfather for goodness sakes! Now I can't help but think he is the biggest disgrace to ever wear a baseball uniform. Every time he steps out there, and every record he breaks now is a spit in the face of every true baseball great that ever played.

I used to love baseball, back when it was a true game of strategy and intelligence. Now it's just a glorified homerun contest. Stolen bases are a relic of the past, even though they have always been an extremely important part of strategy. I mean, could you imagine soccer if all the teams picked up juiced up guys who could kick the ---Cleveland steamer--- out of the ball from mid-field at goal? The game would suck and lose its interest.
In basketball, which is more entertaining, watching the 8' 300 lb guy push a guy down to the basket then reach up and drop the ball in, or a team like the suns who use real basketball skills to dazzle their oponents.
This is how I feel about baseball now. I can't stand to watch a full game, and it is to the point I can't even stomach the sportscenter recap. Ooooh, another homerun. I got so excited the other day when a coworker asked me why in the world the Reds pulled an outfielder in to play as an additional infielder in a situation. You mean pros actually use strategy still?? Manufacture a run, wtf is that?

Ok, I am done now.

[CCM]

meh, baseball... who cares...

[shardian]

"I used to love baseball, back when it was a true game of strategy and intelligence."

I can write the entire strategy on a soggy cocktail napkin.  It's the only sport of which I'm aware where it's always known EXACTLY what a player should do at EXACTLY every moment.  There's no room for improvisation and it's really just a bunch of individual athletes playing their position.

I never said the players had to be smart. The coach has to be smart. For a coach, baseball is like a chess match and the players are their pawns.

[ChadTower]

Catchers have to be very intelligent.

[shardian]

Catchers have to be very intelligent.

I loved catching, though my knees didn't. The only thing that thoroughly pissed me off about catching back in my younger years was that no matter what I did, or anyone else did on the field, the pitcher always got the game ball. I never liked pitching, and I HATED shortstop.

[ChadTower]

I liked catching but never caught on a team where the coach wasn't calling most of the pitches.  That takes most of the fun out of catching.  By the time I got up to the ages where you're calling your own game I was playing centerfield.

[billf]

I liked catching but never caught on a team where the coach wasn't calling most of the pitches.  That takes most of the fun out of catching.  By the time I got up to the ages where you're calling your own game I was playing centerfield.

I played organized baseball for six years up to about age 13.  So we never got to the point of "calling pitches".  Heck we didn't have any pitches beyond a "fastball".  Our goal was just to get it over the plate near the strike zone.  That said, I was primarily a pitcher, catcher, shortstop and first basemen.  I have played each position on the field for at least one game.  Third base in my opinion was the worst - hits just seemed to get there so fast.  Never like the outfield either.  I loved pitching and especially loved catching.

[shardian]

Third base was my second favorite position. My last year of playing American Legion ball when I was 17, I played 3rd base for the first time in a few years - on a turf field no less. A zinger got hit my way and I fielded it and threw it to first without even realizing what happened. It's funny, when I played 3rd base I never had a problem fielding the quick hits, but at SS I could NEVER field the ball. I only played SS in a game once and had 2 consecutive errors.

90% of the time I played either catcher or 3rd base.

And Jim, just because you have no clue as to how baseball strategy works doesn't mean the game is simple.

[ChadTower]

I always enjoyed the infield a lot more than I did outfield.  I got stuck out in centerfield at about 13 when I started to become the fastest guy on most teams.  Best match for what I had to offer, I guess, but I always had to fight to stay engaged in the game when in the outfield.

[billf]

Yep, got to put the fastest and strongest arm in centerfield.  I know what you mean about staying engaged especially at a little league level.  That's why I really liked to play catcher or pitcher.  You're involved in every play.  I played right field for an all-star game once and was bored to tears out there.

Funny Sharidan, I played many a games at shortstop, but couldn't handle third.   

[shardian]

I liked catching but never caught on a team where the coach wasn't calling most of the pitches.  That takes most of the fun out of catching.  By the time I got up to the ages where you're calling your own game I was playing centerfield.

I was allowed to call pitches my last year of little league. Of course, that was only because we had a kid who actually had three decent pitches and could actually place. I also knew how every kid in the league batted because I was at pretty much every single game in town back then. I didn't think much of it back then, but he was damn good for his age as a pitcher. He was a starter in high school. As a catcher, you tend to take for granted that a pitcher will throw it where you want it.

I had two wild guys in Legion ball that were all over the place. The most embarrassing game ever for me was when one of the guys was obviously out of gas, but we always played a double header so he had to finish the first game. He threw about every other ball into the dirt, and all the other ones over the batters head. I was using someone else's equipment and glove, of which he used a cap and mask (which I HATE) and a glove that was too small. After every wild pitch I had to put that damn cap and mask back on and fight to squeeze my hand into the glove. Talk about feeling all eyes on you.

[ChadTower]

As a coach I've never allowed any sort of breaking pitches from anyone not at the high school level.  It's not productive or healthy for the kid's arm and too many kids never master location or off speed work when they rely on a curveball to get outs.  Plenty of time to learn breaking stuff in high school.

[billf]

I liked catching but never caught on a team where the coach wasn't calling most of the pitches.  That takes most of the fun out of catching.  By the time I got up to the ages where you're calling your own game I was playing centerfield.

I was allowed to call pitches my last year of little league. Of course, that was only because we had a kid who actually had three decent pitches and could actually place. I also knew how every kid in the league batted because I was at pretty much every single game in town back then. I didn't think much of it back then, but he was damn good for his age as a pitcher. He was a starter in high school. As a catcher, you tend to take for granted that a pitcher will throw it where you want it.

On one of my little league teams, we had the fastest pitcher in the league.  He threw the ball hard.  None of the other kids who played catcher on our team wanted to catch when he pitched.  It was told to me, when Travis pitches you're playing catcher.  I had a great time catching him.  It was fun.  Not a lot of hits when he pitched so the fielders probably got a bit bored.

[billf]

As a coach I've never allowed any sort of breaking pitches from anyone not at the high school level.  It's not productive or healthy for the kid's arm and too many kids never master location or off speed work when they rely on a curveball to get outs.  Plenty of time to learn breaking stuff in high school.

Yep, learn to throw first.  Then learn to place it where you want it.  Then learn breaking ball stuff.

[Jouster]

meh, baseball... who cares...

I second that...driving into work this morning was rough...nothing but baseball talk.  I nearly fell asleep three times!

Jouster

[shardian]

I liked catching but never caught on a team where the coach wasn't calling most of the pitches.  That takes most of the fun out of catching.  By the time I got up to the ages where you're calling your own game I was playing centerfield.

I was allowed to call pitches my last year of little league. Of course, that was only because we had a kid who actually had three decent pitches and could actually place. I also knew how every kid in the league batted because I was at pretty much every single game in town back then. I didn't think much of it back then, but he was damn good for his age as a pitcher. He was a starter in high school. As a catcher, you tend to take for granted that a pitcher will throw it where you want it.

On one of my little league teams, we had the fastest pitcher in the league.  He threw the ball hard.  None of the other kids who played catcher on our team wanted to catch when he pitched.  It was told to me, when Travis pitches you're playing catcher.  I had a great time catching him.  It was fun.  Not a lot of hits when he pitched so the fielders probably got a bit bored.

My first year of little league we had one of those guys on my team, but I was not allowed to catch him. Every little league has one of those freak-like early puberty kids who can throw in the high 70's and hit everything out of the park.

You HAVE to have a good glove to catch those fellows. I never had the greatest catchers mitt. I have a closet full of old ones - I can't pass up a catchers mitt at a flea market or rummage sale.

[Chris G]

I played a little IM softball in college.  I  liked to play outfield so's I could stare at the coed's asses in the infield.  That's about the only thing I can recall liking about the game. 

[ChadTower]

I tried softball.  Fast pitch was okay but the league was filled with superfrustrated old guys convinced they had once been one break away from the majors and were still just a couple more away from what they were ten years ago.  The slightest thing would start guys screaming, guys would strike out and whip their bat and helmet to the ground, it was just a really uncomfortable place for a person just looking for decent level of play without being delusional about it.

Then I tried slow pitch... that was just boring as hell.  Fat guys and pop flies for three hours.

[shardian]

I tried softball.  Fast pitch was okay but the league was filled with superfrustrated old guys convinced they had once been one break away from the majors and were still just a couple more away from what they were ten years ago.  The slightest thing would start guys screaming, guys would strike out and whip their bat and helmet to the ground, it was just a really uncomfortable place for a person just looking for decent level of play without being delusional about it.

Then I tried slow pitch... that was just boring as hell.  Fat guys and pop flies for three hours.

All the reasons I have given up on baseball are right there. I haven't even handled a bat in probably 2 years now. We had a HS ball field across from our first apartment on which I taught my wife how to hit. We were over there every evening all summer. She could hit the ball regularly and even pop fly out of the infield by the end of the summer!

[ChadTower]

Heh.  My mother was really good at softball.  When I was kid she used to strike guys out cold.  Some would get really pissed, too, since I guess it damaged their fragile egos to get struck out by a woman. 

[shardian]

Heh.  My mother was really good at softball.  When I was kid she used to strike guys out cold.  Some would get really pissed, too, since I guess it damaged their fragile egos to get struck out by a woman. 

That's cool. I wish my wife was athletic, but she is FAR from it. She's more like an "accident waiting to happen" clutsy. Hopefully my little girl will inherit my coordination instead of mommies.

[shardian]

Strategy though?  Pfft.  Run to the ball, catch it, throw it to the ONE PLACE you're supposed to EVERY SINGLE TIME in that situation.

You've totally missed the point. Just because your sandlot games have no organization doesn't mean there is strategy involved in baseball.
Since you are closed off to any reality on this argument, I'll just leave it at that as trying to relay the intricacies of baseball are lost to you.

[ChadTower]

I would enjoy a laid back adult baseball league.  I've never seen one.  Or even a competitively intense league that wasn't full of dillholes.

I have to say that is the one thing I loved about semipro football.  Very few prima donnas and delusional guys.  There was a real sense of guys understanding how lucky they were to be able to suit up at all and appreciation that for any player it can end permanently on any given play.  It was the complete opposite of what I experienced in fast pitch softball.

Plus, if someone ticked you off, it wasn't hard to find a way to crack heads with them and get it off your chest.   

[shardian]

There is an adult baseball league across the river in Ohio around here, and one of my former coworkers played in it for a while. Unfortunately, they take their games more serious that alot of minor league teams. That league is loaded with college players. WAY out of my league at this point, I'm not exactly in "playing shape".

[ChadTower]

I'm slowly slipping away from sight of playing shape.  I've noticed that on this side of 30 it gets harder and takes longer to get back, too. 

[shardian]

I'm slowly slipping away from sight of playing shape.  I've noticed that on this side of 30 it gets harder and takes longer to get back, too. 

You'll face reality some day.

[Chris G]

At least you're keeping your fingers in shape, though.

Semi-pro knitting here you come!

[ChadTower]

Hell no.  I'm gearing up for quasi-pro state funded finger pointing.  I'll be a Senator before you know it.

[Justin Z]

1st and 2nd, one out, down by one run in the seventh.  You're the visiting team.  Do you . . .

1. Baserunning
(a) Hit and run?
(b) Double steal?
(c) Delayed steal?

2. At the plate
(a) Approach pitches aggressively?
(b) Wait for pitches and try to draw a walk?
(c) Sacrifice bunt?
(d) Drag bunt?
(e) Slash?

As for defense, do you

(a) play in your corners?
(b) play at double play depth?
(c) execute a wheel play?

I've probably missed about half of the possible options above, and didn't include about 10 other important points of data to consider, all in real time, as a manager for either side.  Though there are always odds to play, managers who most often go with their gut and get it right are considered the great ones.

Do you have any other questions about the intricacies of baseball strategy, Jim?

[shardian]

1st and 2nd, one out, down by one run in the seventh.  You're the visiting team.  Do you . . .

1. Baserunning
(a) Hit and run?
(b) Double steal?
(c) Delayed steal?

2. At the plate
(a) Approach pitches aggressively?
(b) Wait for pitches and try to draw a walk?
(c) Sacrifice bunt?
(d) Drag bunt?
(e) Slash?

As for defense, do you

(a) play in your corners?
(b) play at double play depth?
(c) execute a wheel play?

I've probably missed about half of the possible options above, and didn't include about 10 other important points of data to consider, all in real time, as a manager for either side.  Though there are always odds to play, managers who most often go with their gut and get it right are considered the great ones.

Do you have any other questions about the intricacies of baseball strategy, Jim?

Not to mention considering who exactly is at bat. How to pitch said person at bat. Are they a pull hitter, swing for the fence hitter, contact hitter.
Its the seventh inning, what shape is the pitcher in? I have two relievers warming in the bull-pen. Do I bring one of them in or let the pitcher work out of the jam? Which reliever do I bring in?

I can just see Jim watching a game after a guy hits a sac fly and saying, "What a bunch of dumbasses, he popped out and his teamates are high fiving him. Don't the realize he's out!"

[More Cowbell]

I play in a competetive men's league here in Chicago. The league is great and the dillhole factor is relatively low. I've played my whole life and coach my kids and do pitching coaching for other people's kids as well. I love the sport but I won't spend a minute trying to defend it against people who don't like it. It's tough to convince people that it's not boring, slow, and predictable. I can't even convince my own wife of that (baseball, not sex).

As far as Barry and steroids go, I'm split on it. I guess I'm not as hyped up on the steroids = cheating thing. Is it because steroids allow you to improve muscle mass more than you could naturally? If so, what other unnatural improvements should be outlawed in baseball? Lasik? Tommy John surgery? Doesn't weight lifting in general increase your body mass to an unnatural state? If you want asteriks next to names, you could find reasons for anyone at any time (pitching records in the dead ball era or back when the mound was 15" high, hitting records pre-1940's back when they used pocketless gloves and the pitcher who threw 90+ was rare). I will say that Bonds cheats in one way, his armor. That arm thing should not be allowed.

[shardian]

Sorry, but I stand fully by what I said.  There's nothing unpredictable in baseball.

Ummm, you only succeeded in proving Justin Z's point, although badly. The argument is not "is baseball unpredictable" ( you never know what will happen on any given pitch except an intentional ball BTW), the argument is does baseball require strategy. By answering the questions, you show that strategy is involved in deciding what to do. So what if every player knows what to do on any given play. That is what they are supposed to do. In any sport at a competitive level, it is assumed that all players understand the basic strategy of the game. There is much more to what happens than how a player reacts.  Like I said before, you have no clue what you are talking about. Kindly return to answering pinball questions. At least you know what you are talking about in that subject.

[ChadTower]

To me, the steroids question is easily answered.

What is cheating?  Cheating is breaking the rules of the organization.

Were steroids against the rules?  No.  If they are within the rules then using them is not cheating.  Anyone can do it.

The followup comment is usually "But they were illegal."  That just makes them a crime... it doesn't make them cheating.

They are against the rules now, so now they are cheating.  But not then.

EDIT:  fixed bbcode

[shardian]

Ummm, you only succeeded in proving Justin Z's point, although badly.

Uhm... no.

The argument is not "is baseball unpredictable" ( you never know what will happen on any given pitch except an intentional ball BTW), the argument is does baseball require strategy.

ORLY?  Here's what I originally said:

I can write the entire strategy on a soggy cocktail napkin.  It's the only sport of which I'm aware where it's always known EXACTLY what a player should do at EXACTLY every moment.  There's no room for improvisation and it's really just a bunch of individual athletes playing their position.

Like I said before, you have no clue what you are talking about. Kindly return to answering pinball questions. At least you know what you are talking about in that subject.

Don't know what I'm talking about, but you passionately confirm everything I say. 

Do you know how to have a discussion online?

OMG. Worst...troll...ever.

[shardian]

To me, the steroids question is easily answered.

What is cheating?  Cheating is breaking the rules of the organization.

Were steroids against the rules?  No.  If they are within the rules then using them is not cheating.  Anyone can do it.

The followup comment is usually "But they were illegal."  That just makes them a crime... it doesn't make them cheating.

They are against the rules now, so now they are cheating.  But not then.

EDIT:  fixed bbcode

In the great words of Al bundy "It's only cheating if you get caught." (The special olympics episode was one of my fav's.)

True, he technically didn't cheat by the rulebook of MLB. In the court of public opinion, which holds far more consequences than a real court in some cases (just ask Mike Vick), he is guilty of cheating. Remember how McGwire and Sosa were treated during their run. You'd swear they were frikkin Medal of honor war heroes they were held up so high. You know that deep down Bonds wishes he were treated like that.

On the contrary though, don't forget that his purgery case is still pending. It's likely though that nothing will come of it.