Feds go after the Mod Chip industry

[ChadTower]

That "legal firmware" is highly questionable... this is one area where just as many people say "hell no it's not" as declare it perfectly legal.  Without decompiling it to see if it is actually XDK signed there is no way to know.

[Green Giant]

Cromwell is a replacement firmware for the Microsoft Xbox gaming console that has been developed by the Xbox Linux Project. If programmed onto the onboard flash chip of the Xbox or a modchip, it can boot the Linux operating system and practically convert the Xbox into a full PC.

It is unusual in that it is a legal firmware (because it does not use any of Microsoft's code to function) and was developed primarily through reverse-engineering of the original MS bios and its boot process. In light of this, many Xbox modchip manufacturers ship this firmware with their chips to avoid litigation and copyright infringement claims.

Using this firmware makes modchips perfectly legal.  They are not in violation of the DMCA as long as this code exists.  Other systems could be more problematic, but if the modder was working on an xbox, he did nothing wrong.

The firmware is perfectly legal.  The modchip is not.  It breaks the xbox's designed control in order to run the legal firmware. 

Edit: Fixed my pitiful quote-fu.

That is the very argument that will be debated in court.  The DMCA is so obscure that any halfway decent lawyer will be able to use it to either defend or persecute someone.  This should be interesting to watch.  It could easily go to the supreme court or warrant a new revision to the bill to clarify things.

[Green Giant]

If companies really want to protect their products, they should modify the hardware.  The Wii has 5 little solder points that serve absolutely no reason but to make attaching a modchip easier.  You would think friction welding the case together instead of easy to remove screws would reduce the people willing to mod their system to a handful.

The applications of this law are far to vague.  It won't be long till companies are using it to sue other companies instead of taking on the little guy.  Anyone know when support and production of the PS2 and xbox will end?  After it is off the market it is fair game.

[ChadTower]

If companies really want to protect their products, they should modify the hardware.  The Wii has 5 little solder points that serve absolutely no reason but to make attaching a modchip easier. 

They're probably surface test points for use in debugging and automated testing during manufacturing.  That's what most console mod spots are actually.  There is nothing on the board that is there for no reason.  Everything on that motherboard cost money to put there.

[shmokes]

And some people will compare region encoding on a video game platform to a major human rights problem.   

Keep the analogies in scale, man.

I got a ticket for going 20 in a 15 in the fall.   

Oh yay, the analogy police are back who don't understand the purpose of an anology.   

The difference in scale is to help you understand a concept you were unable to grasp.  The strong analog is meant to help you grok the concept of a thing not being right just because it is legal or wrong just because it is illegal, not to suggest that the two things are equal in importance.  Or do you mean to tell me that unless we are talking about major human rights issues all laws are good and just?

[Havok]

F Nintendo, F Microsoft and F Sony.

Show them how much they are going to lose this year by not supporting them...

[ChadTower]

The difference in scale is to help you understand a concept you were unable to grasp.  The strong analog is meant to help you grok the concept of a thing not being right just because it is legal or wrong just because it is illegal, not to suggest that the two things are equal in importance.  Or do you mean to tell me that unless we are talking about major human rights issues all laws are good and just?

Save the hyperbole for someone who needs it to grasp a concept.  It's not worth using in a reasonable discussion among intellingent people as all it does is dilute the point with a comparison to something completely unlike the topic.  You and I both know this is nothing like civil rights.

[shmokes]

Once again, the analogy was made to point out that illegality != wrong.  However, I don't divorce it completely from a civil rights issue, as property is clearly mingled up in civil rights (4th amendment).  When Microsoft sells you something and continues to exercise what look very much like property rights (telling you how you can and cannot use it), there are civil rights issues implicated, which is why we will likely see these issues playing out in federal, possibly the Supreme Court.

Dude, the law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law. 

You're making statements like this that suggest that it's just black and white -- if the law says so, it is so.  Rosa Parks is an obvious example of that not being the case.  I used Rosa Parks because you obviously understand the concept in this context; wtf would be the point in using an analog that would be just as difficult for you to understand as the mod chip thing?    

[KenToad]

I think you're both right. 

Shmokes, the analogy is not wrong, but definitely ridiculously extreme, and so carries a whole can of worms unrelated to the point, i.e. property rights and civil rights are not really comparable, IMO.

But, Chad, you are somewhat irritating in your persistent rationalizing of injustice in this world.  What happened to those guys who modded consoles is effing scary in its blatant harassment of the little guy in a large problem.  That's worth admitting. 

Anyway,   

[Green Giant]

Dude, the law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law. 

Just to point out, the law isn't clear.  It is just about as obscure as you could expect something from congress to be.  I could easily defend those modders using the very law the government is using to persecute them.  You could also use that very law to do a search and siezure of basically anyones computer assuming it has access to the internet.

[shmokes]

The law is crystal clear, it doesn't matter if the mod chip has alternative purposes if the primary purpose is illegal.  The law states that.  It's also worth noting that running linux or homebrew on the system still requires that you "[circumvent] a technological measure that effectively controls access".  The mod chip does absolutely nothing other than exactly that.  It circumvents the boxes security.  It breaks the law, in a very clear way, before any software is even installed.  It's a ridiculous law that needs overturned as soon as possible, but it's still the law, and it's not ambiguous.

[SavannahLion]

My eyes glazed over on this last page, so I don't know if it's been commented on.

I don't know of any court case where hardware chips, such as a mod chip, was declared illegal. There are court cases where circuit designs within the chip infringes patents, but the hardware itself is usually not. In the case of the Wii, it's doubly a problem.

Some of the Wii chips out there are based on controllers from Atmel and Microchip, readily available to any hobbyist (for now). I have a Wii and I also have some of the controllers in the same house. Under DMCA, it can be construed that I'm illegally installing the controllers into the Wii even though I have not done so. But the real danger doesn't lie there, the real danger lies with how the case is handled. If you think carefully about it. If the raid captures the general purpose microcontrollers I mentioned and the judge allows the evidence into the case, that could conceivably pave the way for bigger problems in the future. eg asinine restrictions on controllers. What if Randy can't purchase his controllers because of some silly restriction placed on their purchase, even though his devices have nothing to do with the mod chips? What if the manufacturers, so fearful of repercussions from the DMCA, discontinue whole lines of controllers and weaken entire markets because of their use in DMCA illegal mods (which was a protected right by the way)?

Yeah, I know I'm reaching but no one seems to get it. I work in a storage facility where old records are kept. Most of the time, examining rat ---Cleveland steamer--- is more interesting than pulling up old laws from 1855. But once in a great while, a gem or two will fall out. Here's one. Back in the early 1980's or so, a motorcycle helmet law tried to make its way through the Legislature. Hundreds of people bitched and moaned and wrote letters to the Governor about the injustice and unfairness of the law. "People should have the right to choose whether they wear helmets or not," they wrote. "The law should not force people to make choices for them," they shouted. The law was vetoed. Around 1985 (IIRC), the law found it's way into the Legislature again. This time, it specified that helmets were a requirement only for children under 16 (IIRC). For those over 16, it was still a choice. Again the people howled, but not as loudly. Many people simply grumbled that it was reasonable that children should wear helmets, as long as it wasn't a requirement for adults. So the law was passed.

That 1985'ish law did something though. About five years later, the original law of adults wearing helmets entered the legislation again. But something weird happened. The law passed. Yeah, there was a lot of howling. Sure there were people who refused. But by then the under 16 crowd are now 21, way past the legal voting age and many had children of their own. Parents, who saw their children wearing helmets, essentially encouraged the bill to pass through the legislation.

There are lots and lots of examples like that. Small laws that get passed (DMCA) which make way for other laws which make way for even bigger laws. Everyone is so hell bent on focusing on the DMCA (which someone should) that nobody is really focusing on the bigger picture. That the DMCA, combined with other laws, is going to to suppress people around the world in an unparalleled way. Look at how the DMCA affects other countries, such as Germany.

There is something seriously ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up with this country when the voter turnout is barely 50% (by comparison, some countries are as high as 95%), that there isn't an uproar (not just bitching) over those damn diebold machines, that someone (Debra Bowen) stands up and actually decertifies voting machines with practically zero news coverage. What the ---fudgesicle--- were we thinking, impeaching Clinton over sex? We should've kicked Clinton's ass out over the DMCA. Instead this country just farted, rolled over, and replayed Clinton's "boxers or briefs" question in between episodes of Friends.

What we need is the people to get pissed off and we need to fight back. We need another Tiananmen Square to get peoples attention. Don't worry, with the iPod, you won't hear the tank drive up.

I think I'm done ranting now.  I don't feel any better though. 

[Green Giant]

The law is crystal clear, it doesn't matter if the mod chip has alternative purposes if the primary purpose is illegal.  The law states that.  It's also worth noting that running linux or homebrew on the system still requires that you "[circumvent] a technological measure that effectively controls access".  The mod chip does absolutely nothing other than exactly that.  It circumvents the boxes security.  It breaks the law, in a very clear way, before any software is even installed.  It's a ridiculous law that needs overturned as soon as possible, but it's still the law, and it's not ambiguous.

You are miss quoting and leaving out the important stuff in your quote, but you just proved my point that reading it different ways can either condone or defend modchips.

It specifically states, "‘‘(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
‘‘(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;"

Removing the bios entirely is comparable to actually removing the chip itself or destroying an xbox.  Clearly breaking it is not against the law.  Then a modchip can allow you to drop the linux operating system onto the xbox.  Unless the feds get a confession from a modchip maker admitting their chip is designed for the sole purpose of circumventign copyrighted material, they have no case.  You can easily argues point B of the law which states it must have limited significance outside of bypassing the xbox bios.  Since you can replace the xbox bios with an original bios, you are not circumventing a boxes security. 

If they really want a case, they should go after anyone and everyone providing access to the hacked xbox bios.  Now other systems will be harder to defend as I don't think the PS2 or Wii modchips can utilize any software that wasn't hacked from the orignal makers.

There is something seriously ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up with this country when the voter turnout is barely 50% (by comparison, some countries are as high as 95%),

You are stretching it a bit there.  Only one country, Australia, actually reached 95% voter turnout, and they only made that because you get fined for not voting.  Malta has the highest legal voter turnout at 94%.  The main factor is that most Americans are happy with life and have no reason to run to the polls.

Well, actually there is one country.  North Korea recently had an election with 99.9% of the population voting.  The amazing thing is that Kim Jong recieved 100% of the vote from those people.  Damn, wish we had that kind of support for out government.

[shmokes]

 Since you can replace the xbox bios with an original bios, you are not circumventing a boxes security. 

Of course you are.  The Xbox bios is part of the box's security.  The sole purpose, in fact, of replacing the Xbox bios with an original bios (or hacked bios, for that matter) is specifically to circumvent the box's security so that you can run unsigned code on the hardware.  Your logic about removing the bios is akin to breaking the box, and since breaking the box is not illegal, removing the bios must also not be illegal is completely wacky.  You've got your Venn diagram all ass backwards in your head.  Smashing your Xbox over someone's head would also break the system, but that doesn't make it legal just because breaking your Xbox is legal.  The loophole you're trying to capitalize on doesn't exist.

[northerngames]

what if a tsop went bad on an origanal xbox and it flash's orange and red and no longer works or will work and you threw a chip in with the same stock bios in order to make the console work again like stock?

it would do nothing but work like an origanal xbox that way.

therefore it was used as a repair tool.

[Green Giant]

what if a tsop went bad on an origanal xbox and it flash's and you threw a chip in with the same stock bios in order to make the console work again?

it would do nothing but work like an origanal xbox that way.

According to shmokes, it would be illegal to do that.  The xbox bios is just a small chip that can easily be removed and flashed with some extra hardware.  All the modchip does is circumvent removing the bios chip.  You cold easily completely remove the chip and drop in a replacement from whoever made it.  Would this be illegal too?  I would say it isn't, but I guess some people think otherwise. 

Completely changing the bios with a new one that runs linux is not bypassing Microsoft security.  The point of the law is to prevent anything that can bypass copyrighted material.  The optional linux operating system for xbox does not in any way allow copyrighted microsoft games to be viewed, played, or utilized in any way.

And removing the bios is akin to destroying an xbox.  If I took out your bios chip and trashed it, by your theory it would be impossible to repair legally, even if you just flashed a new chip with the original unhacked xbox bios.

Smashing your Xbox over someone's head would also break the system, but that doesn't make it legal just because breaking your Xbox is legal. 

Actually smashing it over someone's head is illegal but for completely different reasons.


Have you actually taken a look at the DMCA?  Not just a summarization.

[northerngames]

Team-Xecuter got raided also they were probably the leading brand of xbox aftermarket parts since they ran there own cromwell based bios off linux there site is still up and they did not take all of there harddrives pc and video game stuff away like others apparently they were asked not to do it no more and they agreed that they would not mkae them no more but I dont recall them saying anyone got in trouble.

EDIT: as for my prior post above shmokes is probably right becuase in the laws eye's that tsop could have been removed and replace by another off another motherboard just as easy as having the repair chip installed.

[Green Giant]

So far I don't think anyone has been charged with anything for making/distributing modchips.

Stuff has been confiscated, but no charges filed.  They are trying to make a case first.

But like I have been saying this whole time, they have no case unless they can show a modchip maker/distributer provided access to hacked xbox bios or a location to obtain it.  Unless the law is revised, team-xecuter can start back up production of their modchips.

[northerngames]

nothing was taken form them and they agreed to cease production of the chips but they are still going to make the aftermarket case's fans etc.

they were not selling an illegal bios on any of thier products nor copyrighted games so I assume that is why nothing was ceased.

[More Cowbell]

Team-Xecuter got raided also they were probably the leading brand of xbox aftermarket parts since they ran there own cromwell based bios off linux there site is still up and they did not take all of there harddrives pc and video game stuff away like others apparently they were asked not to do it no more and they agreed that they would not mkae them no more but I dont recall them saying anyone got in trouble.

EDIT: as for my prior post above shmokes is probably right becuase in the laws eye's that tsop could have been removed and replace by another off another motherboard just as easy as having the repair chip installed.

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

[ChadTower]

The xbox bios is just a small chip that can easily be removed and flashed with some extra hardware. 

This is not true.  The Xbox BIOS exists in multiple parts in multiple places on the motherboard with parts of it specifically hidden in larger packages and dynamically loaded at boot time via jump opcodes.  That's why it took an EE PhD candidate to find it.  There is no single ROM that holds the entire BIOS and the BIOS is in fact physically implemented in a manner that makes it impossible to even read it without going through the system's security.

[Green Giant]

Still seems like a sketchy implementation of the law.  Wonder why microsoft waited so long to squelch the modchip industry.  All they are doing is applying an old law in a new way.

This is probably why nintendo is cracking down.  The xbox is to far gone on modification to stop now, but the wii modchip industry could be destroyed before it can grow.

This is not true.  The Xbox BIOS exists in multiple parts in multiple places on the motherboard with parts of it specifically hidden in larger packages and dynamically loaded at boot time via jump opcodes.  That's why it took an EE PhD candidate to find it.  There is no single ROM that holds the entire BIOS and the BIOS is in fact physically implemented in a manner that makes it impossible to even read it without going through the system's security.

As for that, guess I was thinking of a friend I knew that worked at a certain major computer/printer maker that would softmod xbox's by flashing a chip he took out of it.

[northerngames]

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

not much I guess it's more of a bad habit

just curious, do you burn foreigner's at the stake? 

[Samstag]

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

not much I guess it's more of a bad habit

just curious, do you burn foreigner's at the stake? 

Don't let them get you down, man.  I had a friend like you who came from an underpriviledged country.  The whole town had one solitary keyboard they all had to share.  And they couldn't even afford a full keyboard.  Once a year after the fall harvest they would pool their small resources and buy another letter.  It's a little-known fact that they actually invented leet-speak, because they found that they could use a few numbers to signify many different letters.

Anyway, just wanted you to keep up your spirits.  One day your town will be able to afford a shift key.  With luck, you may become wealthy and purchase some punctuation keys.  Good luck!

[ChadTower]

He could get by with just the period key.  That's affordable.

[More Cowbell]

Pat Sajak charges way too much for vowels though.

[Samstag]

Pat Sajak charges way too much for vowels though.

4310J

Ok, so the J makes a pretty lame U, but I just saved you $1250!

[northerngames]

now were into wheel of fortune and poor people 

[elvis]

It's hilarious that American law treats mod-chippers in the same fashion as rapists and murderers.  The whole thing is an utter farce.  I imagine images of federal police busting in doors with rams, guns drawn, handcuffing "dangerous criminals" and confiscating chips and soldering irons.  The whole thing is laughable at best.  Go find some real criminals.

Nobody is going after the people doing the actual copyright infringement - the warez scene and bootleggers.  Too difficult perhaps?  Much easier to go and bust a few nerds instead.   People go on and on using copyright material illegally long after you put the mod-chippers in jail.

And lets not forget these utterly ludicrous "costs" the games industry keeps coming up with.  "Piracy costs us X billion dollars a year!!!".  Oh really?  You're assuming that every filthy little copyright infringer would pay for the 100 games they download and burn?  Remembering that most by demographic studies are unemployed children.  Assuming each and every copyright infringement would otherwise be a real sale if it was prevented is the silliest thing the games industry continues to profess each and every year.  Wake up to yourselves!

The DMCA itself is utterly stupid.  Anti-tinker laws trying to stop consumers doing what they like with their own hardware post-purchase.  I'm certainly against copyright infringement (buying games keeps the games industry alive, mmmkay?), but this is just silly.

I'm happy I live in a country that had the common sense to tell the DMCA to go suck itself.  I legally (in my country) mod for import play, and I pay for legitimate games from overseas.  If and when laws are put in place to prevent me from doing this, I'll stop buying games all together, and not give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- when we see another games industry crash ala 1983.

Ironically, if console manufacturers gave us

1) Region-free gaming and

2) The ability to run homebrew as we please

The whole reason for legal modchips would vanish.  I would certainly be a happy gamer if both of the above came standard with each console.  It was standard in the days of the Commodore 64 and Amiga.  Nintendo were the biggest pushers of import restrictions back in the day, and it seems modern consoles follow suit mindlessly.  Perhaps listening to your customers' requests would be a good start?

[sosuke]

Where do you live? I'll add it to my list of places I might want to move to!

[Grasshopper]

Where do you live? I'll add it to my list of places I might want to move to!

Australia.

Nice beaches too...