Feds go after the Mod Chip industry

[Dervacumen]

Something about being a violation of the DMCA

I guess Nintendo's threat of a few months ago had a little more substance than most people thought.

[HaRuMaN]

boo!

[Green Giant]

GAY...

"These crimes cost legitimate businesses billions of dollars annually and facilitate multiple other layers of criminality, such as smuggling, software piracy and money laundering."

Wow, I guess I should cancel that shipment from the cartel for this weekend.  Have to move the laundering business offshore now.
Those damn modchipers and their money laundering.

Well, time to go have my parents hold some game systems for me.

[SNAAKE]

wow..I like how they make it sound like its a multi billion $ business. "money laundering and smuggling" 

[SavannahLion]

It's ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up how Nintendo and other companies are able to shoehorn the legality of hardware modification under an umbrella law like the DMCA, then laugh in the face of the consumers. Even worse when dickless ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- faced jerkwads calling themselves news reporters tilt the story making the ---fudgesicle--- knobs the victim.

When are judges and the general public going to figure out the hardware is a tool? It's still perfectly legal (as of this writing) to buy a crowbar, but it's obviously not legal to break into someones house with it. It won't be long before they require an ID, a fingerprint and a bank statement so people can buy tools more sinister than a measuring stick.

How I would love to see Bill Clinton's head crushed under truck tire on national TV for the mess he created.

[DarkBubble]

AGAIN?!   

Honestly, just because Sony's in a world of hurt, it doesn't mean that it's time for you to return to your old Gestapo tactics, Nintendo.  And to think, both the DS and the Wii were on my list.

*raises middle finger*  I'm doing this as hard as I can!

 

[danny_galaga]

yeah, just when i was forgetting how nasty nintendo were in the 90s! making it illegal to mod a console is akin to making hotrods illegal in my books...

[northerngames]

Microsoft, ESA and Nintendo Press Release on U.S. 'ModChip' Raids
>> Microsoft, The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) and Nintendo posted press releases concerning the raids on US modchip resellers.

The Microsoft press release:

Microsoft Corp. today issued the following statement in support of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) anti-piracy enforcement actions taken against distributors of modification chips designed to circumvent copyright protection on popular game consoles, including the Xbox® and Xbox 360™ game consoles:

"Microsoft applauds ICE for its effort to reduce piracy and protect the intellectual property of Microsoft and its industry partners. This is an important step in the continuing fight against piracy and the threat it presents to the global economy and consumers throughout the world."

The ESA press release:

The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) today commended U.S. law enforcement agents and prosecutors' work in undertaking the nation's first and largest anti-piracy raid of its kind. The action, code-named "Operation Tangled Web," targeted retailers selling modification chips through the Internet for the Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony game console systems. Law enforcement executed 32 search warrants in more than 20 localities across the country within a 24-hour period.

"Plain and simple, selling and distributing products to illegally bypass game consoles' piracy protections is a crime with real-life consequences. This is not a game; we're talking jail time. Enforcement initiatives of this scope send a clear message to both the public and pirate community that this illegal activity will not be tolerated," said Michael D. Gallagher, president of ESA, the trade association representing U.S. computer and video game publishers. "We commend Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), the U.S. Department of Justice, and the participating U.S. Attorneys' offices for targeting individuals and groups selling 'mod-chips' and pirated game software."

Modification chips or "mod-chips" are typically installed in video game console systems to circumvent the technological protection measures and enable the user to play pirated game software. These chips, as well as other circumvention devices, are illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

"As an industry, we protect our intellectual property, encourage our government to crack down on those who break the law, and urge other governments to take similar action against video game pirates. Yearly worldwide piracy costs total over $3 billion and it impinges on businesses and employees who create, develop, and distribute innovative products," said Gallagher. "The ESA will work with federal law enforcement to ensure that those engaged in the illegal trade of circumvention devices are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."

The Nintendo Press Release:

Today U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents executed 32 federal search warrants in 16 states as part of an investigation into the alleged sale and distribution of illegal modification chips for various video game consoles, including Nintendo's Wii™ home video game system. The mod chips designed for the Wii console circumvent the security embedded in the hardware and allow users to play counterfeit Wii software.

This Immigrations and Customs Enforcement investigation represents the largest national enforcement action of its kind targeting video game piracy. Nintendo has worked closely with this branch of the Department of Homeland Security, and fully supports its actions and other investigations currently underway.

"Nintendo and its developers and publishers lost an estimated $762 million in sales in 2006 due to piracy of its products," said Jodi Daugherty, Nintendo of America's senior director of anti-piracy. "Nintendo's anti-piracy team works closely with law enforcement officials worldwide to seize mod chips and counterfeit software. Since April, Nintendo has seized more than 91,000 counterfeit Wii discs globally."

[Green Giant]

This will be hilarious if they actually try to bring someone to court for just having a modchip installed.  Especially if they only have copies of games they actually own.

This brings ownership rights of anything you own into question.  Is that really your tv or are you renting the technology from the maker.  Do I own this computer I am using or should I ask AMD if I can keep typing or overclock their processor?

[Samstag]

I'd imagine that they're only busting people who were installing chips and preloading illegal content.

A quick browse through craiglist would turn up hundreds more potential busts.

[Dervacumen]

The Nintendo Press Release:

"Nintendo and its developers and publishers lost an estimated $762 million in sales in 2006 due to piracy of its products"
"Since April, Nintendo has seized more than 91,000 counterfeit Wii discs globally."

Let's see here.  Assuming games cost $50 each, a $762M loss would mean 15,240,000 illegal copies in 2006.
In four months, Nintendo seized 364,000 copies.  Extrapolated out to a year that's 1,092,000 illegal copies they could confiscate.  I suppose that's a reasonable estimate if you assume they are only confiscating 7% of the available illegal copies, primarily from the big players.
With that much on the line I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo was working on a way to brick wii's with modchips installed, or at the least prevent new titles from running.  I mean, if most of the mod chips can be updated via DVD doesn't it make sense that Nintendo would reverse engineer the modchip update software and use it to create their own detection code on their new releases?

I suspect the ensuing lawsuits might prevent them from doing so.

[ChadTower]

It also doesn't account for people downloading game images and burning themselves or people renting and copying themselves.

[tommy]

Death to the ripoff that is gamestop.

[patrickl]

It's always a bit of a guess what their loss is. Do they count every copy that might ever be made? If people download games or buy cheap copies, it's not realistic to claim the same people would have bought all those games if they had to pay full price.

[Green Giant]

I'd imagine that they're only busting people who were installing chips and preloading illegal content.

A quick browse through craiglist would turn up hundreds more potential busts.

"investigation into the alleged sale and distribution of illegal modification chips for various video game consoles, including Nintendo's Wii"

There is no illegal software that can be preloaded onto the wii, and the article says distribution of mod chips, not the games.  If they raid some guys house who people hire to install modchips, what will be there argument?  Lots of places adds out there say we will install your modchip for you.

The only case they have is if these people give you copies of games or with an xbox, have it preloaded on the system.  Hell you could sale xbox's with them that have the software to rip the games already loaded.

If the raids weren't for people selling illegal games, just selling modded systems, then the government is about to get a countersuit.

[ahofle]

If the raids weren't for people selling illegal games, just selling modded systems, then the government is about to get a countersuit.

It is apparently part of the ridiculous Digital Millennium Copyright Act:
"...criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works (commonly known as DRM) and criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, even when there is no infringement of copyright itself."

I always thought the modchips themselves were legal (until yesterday).  As my infinitely bad luck would have it, I lost my Wii in this raid.  The modder actually called me.  My Wii was packed up and just about ready to ship out that morning.  He said they took all his consoles (including mine) and his home computer, but didn't charge him with anything.  I know it's pretty unlikely they would go after little fish like me, but I'm pretty nervous about them having my name/address which was in his customer database.    The funniest part about this to me is that this little 'operation' is being performed by the US Customs and Immigrations Departments, who apparently rank busting illegal solderers higher than watching our borders and stopping illegal immigration.

[Green Giant]

As my infinitely bad luck would have it, I lost my Wii in this raid.  The modder actually called me.  My Wii was packed up and just about ready to ship out that morning.  He said they took all his consoles (including mine) and his home computer, but didn't charge him with anything.

Wow, that sucks man.  I feel for you there.  As long as you don't have any illegal games, it shouldn't be a problem. 

After seizing game systems and attacking people putting the chips in, this will get some major awareness.  This is the sort of thing that goes all the way to the supreme court.  Sucks for you cause if that happens, you won't see your wii again until after the Wii2 comes out.

They never got mad at tv makers for having tuners built in that would allow a tv to steal cable.  Wonder if they are gonna go after gun makers since guns are used in crimes.

[ChadTower]

Sounds like you got lied to, bro... law enforcement doesn't go into people's homes, seize their goods, and not charge the person with anything.  It's either illegal to have them, and they get charged / good seized, or it's not illegal and they do nothing.

[tommy]

What do you guys think the purpose of all this is for? They don't want people stealing software and do not want anyone making mods to encourage that sort of thing. It's not difficult to understand. You spend good money and effort to make a game and just want the money you deserve from customers who would buy your work, that's all, and the law is protecting those people in anyway they can.

[whatzcrackn]

Whatz-a-mod-chip 

[HaRuMaN]

Sounds like you got lied to, bro... law enforcement doesn't go into people's homes, seize their goods, and not charge the person with anything.  It's either illegal to have them, and they get charged / good seized, or it's not illegal and they do nothing.

Was Harpal modding that Wii??    

[Howard_Casto]

Allow me to take a step back here an be devil's advocate for a minute.  They didn't take this action back when modchips had a valid use (homebrew). They decided to act now, when the wii and 360 modchips literally can only be used to circumvent copyright protection... in other words they are only useful for piracy. 

I have a wii, but I sure haven't bought/made a modchip for it yet.  Why?  Well aside from running illegal copies of brand new games, I can't do anything with it. 


I will say the profit losses are extremely exaggerated, as is the "danger" of such mods.  The problem I always have with these estimates is they neglect to mention that the manufacturer's don't lose a dime from piracy (you don't swipe a copy off the shelf, you download a copy off the net, meaning no physical product is stolen.. only "i.p.") and generally speaking, people willing to steal games aren't the ones buying said games, meaning they didn't lose a potential sale.

These mod-chip manufacturer's seriously rip off their customers btw.  The average modchip is about 5 bucks in parts (often parts you can buy off the shelf), yet they generally start at 40 bucks..... averaging out to around 50-60 bucks a chip.   So while defending your personal rights is one thing, I wouldn't exactly side with the mod-chip makers and "pro" installers, who are screwing you and the original manufacturer at the same time.

[ahofle]

Sounds like you got lied to, bro... law enforcement doesn't go into people's homes, seize their goods, and not charge the person with anything.  It's either illegal to have them, and they get charged / good seized, or it's not illegal and they do nothing.

That thought crossed my mind, but I highly doubt it.  His entire website is shutdown too. 

Also, in response to Howard, the wiikey modchip can be used to run Gamecube homebrew on the Wii (which I was really interested in as I hear there are some good emulators for it).

[danny_galaga]

It also doesn't account for people downloading game images and burning themselves

[ChadTower]

That thought crossed my mind, but I highly doubt it.  His entire website is shutdown too. 

Of course it is shutdown... he's afraid to maintain the business.  Sending out those units is illegal, he knew it then but now he's afraid they'll come down on him.  So he closed up shop and kept whatever units he had in for service.  What he told you happened is an illegal seizure if no one was charged with anything.

[ahofle]

Well maybe it is a scam (I would actually feel BETTER if that were the case), but he is one of the biggest modders in the country, so I can't imagine he would be excluded from the raids.  Also he sounded genuinely freaked out on the phone when he called me.  I just figured the police raiding the place wouldn't know a modchip from a potato chip, or even know how to open a Wii, so anything they confiscated would be taken to the lab for examination and then the charges would be filed.  Also, I've never heard that you have to have charges prepared to obtain a search warrant, just probably cause.

[ChadTower]

A search warrant is different from seizure of goods.  It's either illegal to have them (and thus you can be arrested on the spot) or it's not, and they can't seize something legal to have.  They have a warrant to search for illegal goods... and of course, by their nature, they are illegal, so he'd be arrested for possessing them.

It's possible he had them at a different site and thus he wasn't there when they took them.  It's also possible they didn't arrest him if they couldn't tell by looking whether or not they were modded.

[Samstag]

A search warrant is different from seizure of goods.  It's either illegal to have them (and thus you can be arrested on the spot) or it's not, and they can't seize something legal to have.  They have a warrant to search for illegal goods... and of course, by their nature, they are illegal, so he'd be arrested for possessing them.

While this all makes sense, it's not the way things work.  When computers are involved it's fairly common for a police raid to involve taking everything that might be remotely connected to the crime including every PC and console in the home/business, every disk of any kind, etc.  They can keep it all quite a long time, whether they ever charge you with a crime or not.

Ask Steve Jackson about that!

[northerngames]

here is what a convicted person of this had to say this was a member from another site that made the news today..




FallsInc - When ICE hit me, they had a warrant for my grandma's house where I had all my packages sent. They had a picture of the house, and a description of it, meaning they were ready to come find me. When they were there, they didn't find much, since I hadn't had my computer and most modding stuff there for a while, but I continued to have the orders sent there for security of the packages. They went in the house and woke everyone up and watched them get dressed and started going though everything that was in my old room, and the stuff I had in the garage. They took anything that was related to gaming. They opened all the mail I had waiting for me there (which included someone's Xbox and $150 for a mod and 400gb), and took all the consoles and all console parts that I had stored there they even took my original xbox1 games, that were in retail cases. They took my 360, power brick and video cable, while its modded with xtreme 5.1b, it has never had 1 single burned game booted on it. They also felt it necessary to take all my old Xbox parts, mostly dead, my controllers for the 360 and Wii (?) and packed it in a box, and left.

They got my phone number from my grandma and they called me, but I was sleeping, just like everyone else in Ohio. They eventually figured out where I was, and came to find me at my girlfriends' house. They asked me about modding and what I did, and how I did it. They showed me the list of modchips that they collected, and asked me if I ever imported modchips from Canada. I told them I did, but I didn't know it was a Canadian site until after I made the order. They asked me how much money I made, and how many mods I've done, and how many chips I still had, and where they were and where my computers were.

I wasn't forced to turn over my stuff since they didn't have a warrant for where it all was, but they told me that if I volunteered it, it would look better when the case is reviewed. They also said that I would have a better chance of getting it back (at first, they promised that I would get it back in 10 days, but once we got to the location, that was changed to "better chance" and "looks better in the eyes of XX". I did the only thing I felt I could do, I let them take what they wanted. We went to where I had my workshop area. They took my laptop, and desktop, and the soldering iron (which was one of their main things to find for some reason). All the chips and relative parts were taken on the recommendation of the computer forensics guy who was to be doing the analysis on my things.

In their defense, the ICE people who came to my girlfriends house were nice people, and they tried to help me make the right decision. I knew they were just doing their job, but I have been out of work since early may, and modding is the only thing that was keeping me above water with the bills. Now I can't mod, and I can't even sell anything off to pay for bills either since it has all been confiscated due to a ludicrous interpretation of the DCMA. Now it's all said and done, and I just have to wait for them to decide what I did wrong, but while I'm waiting, I have NOTHING of any worth anymore, other than a computer monitor, and my car. Because of what happened I'm not allowed to see my girlfriend and our 4 month old daughter, and last night, I slept in my car and my girlfriend sent me a text message telling me it felt like someone was taking me away from her. They took my life away. I would like to formally thank Microsoft and Nintendo for cracking down on the little guy with a soldering iron in his garage, rather than going after the people that are responsible for the bootlegs being available.

[ChadTower]

Oh man, that guys effed himself over thoroughly.  He admitted right to them what he was doing?

Get a lawyer, man.  Get a lawyer before you start talking.

[shardian]

Oh man, that guys effed himself over thoroughly.  He admitted right to them what he was doing?

Get a lawyer, man.  Get a lawyer before you start talking.

If they didn't read him his rights before asking him to tell them info, then his rights were violated and he can get off scott free. He BETTER at least get a public defender.

[Texasmame]

Sounds like you got lied to, bro... law enforcement doesn't go into people's homes, seize their goods, and not charge the person with anything.  It's either illegal to have them, and they get charged / good seized, or it's not illegal and they do nothing.

Untrue.

Charges can be brought after the search. 

[Texasmame]

That thought crossed my mind, but I highly doubt it.  His entire website is shutdown too. 

Of course it is shutdown... he's afraid to maintain the business.  Sending out those units is illegal, he knew it then but now he's afraid they'll come down on him.  So he closed up shop and kept whatever units he had in for service.  What he told you happened is an illegal seizure if no one was charged with anything.

Again, untrue.

[Texasmame]

Oh man, that guys effed himself over thoroughly.  He admitted right to them what he was doing?

Get a lawyer, man.  Get a lawyer before you start talking.

If they didn't read him his rights before asking him to tell them info, then his rights were violated and he can get off scott free. He BETTER at least get a public defender.

AGAIN, untrue.

This thread is funny.   

[ChadTower]

You're actually going to dispute that he shouldn't have admitted to the cops what he was doing, rather than having an attorney present?

sharidan, he only has to hear his rights if they arrest him.  But he should already know that talking to cops, if you're the suspect, is always lose-lose-lose.

[Green Giant]

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.  Sucks for the guy losing all his stuff, but will be interesting to see what happens if they tell him modifiying hardware is illegal.

You can't start claiming modding hardware to enable it to possibly steal something is illegal.  If this sneaks by an appellate court and possibly the supreme court, I will be shocked.  They will be able to raid anyone without probable cause saying their computer could be used to download movies since it has an internet connection.

I see this going nowhere at all.  Like the kid said, he has done nothing.  Go after people offering up the illegal games.

Think about the guys on this forum that have made racing cabs using a modded xbox.  If they own 10 racing games and made things simple with a modchip, what is the crime.  I wouldn't want to have to have access to the xbox to change a game if I was them.    No more mame on an xbox cab either. 

[Texasmame]

You're actually going to dispute that he shouldn't have admitted to the cops what he was doing, rather than having an attorney present?

sharidan, he only has to hear his rights if they arrest him.  But he should already know that talking to cops, if you're the suspect, is always lose-lose-lose.

In regards to that first question - that's neither right nor wrong, it's just a matter of opinion.

Also, Miranda doesn't come into play unless he is in custody (arrested) AND they are going to question him about things that pertain to the arrest.  Just because you're arrested doesn't mean you get Mirandized automatically.  That's just on T.V.   

[Texasmame]

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.  Sucks for the guy losing all his stuff, but will be interesting to see what happens if they tell him modifiying hardware is illegal.

You can't start claiming modding hardware to enable it to possibly steal something is illegal.  If this sneaks by an appellate court and possibly the supreme court, I will be shocked.  They will be able to raid anyone without probable cause saying their computer could be used to download movies since it has an internet connection.

I see this going nowhere at all.  Like the kid said, he has done nothing.  Go after people offering up the illegal games.

Think about the guys on this forum that have made racing cabs using a modded xbox.  If they own 10 racing games and made things simple with a modchip, what is the crime.  I wouldn't want to have to have access to the xbox to change a game if I was them.    No more mame on an xbox cab either. 

Well, if they can substantiate that he was advertising his services under the guise that they could be used for playing illegal copies of games, that could be problematic for him.  However, the bigger problem would be for him to prove that the modding services he did ALSO allowed for other, clearly legal, things to be done on the system - like homebrew.

If he can show that he didn't hype up the illegal aspects of his work to potential customers AND that his work could also be used for legitimate, legal purposes, he SHOULD be fine.  But you never know - it's all a crap shoot in the forked up legal system.  

[SNAAKE]

real question is, should I hide my xbox or what..I dont want anyone take that. I have my xbox live street fighter winning record there. SS rank and 90% win ratio..I wanna keep it for the sake of my ego

or we should burn our mame cabinets..before you know they will raid mame cabinet builders too. LOOK ! he is playing pacman without paying for like the 9000th time..GET HIM !!

[geomartin]

real question is, should I hide my xbox or what..I dont want anyone take that. I have my xbox live street fighter winning record there. SS rank and 90% win ratio..I wanna keep it for the sake of my ego

or we should burn our mame cabinets..before you know they will raid mame cabinet builders too. LOOK ! he is playing pacman without paying for like the 9000th time..GET HIM !!

Actually, this could become a real threat.  Microsoft and Nintendo are sure to point out that MAME is a threat to their classics available on their download services.  I could easily see them going after ROM burners.

[danny_galaga]

Oh man, that guys effed himself over thoroughly.  He admitted right to them what he was doing?

Get a lawyer, man.  Get a lawyer before you start talking.

If they didn't read him his rights before asking him to tell them info, then his rights were violated and he can get off scott free. He BETTER at least get a public defender.

AGAIN, untrue.

This thread is funny.   

all they have to do is call him a terrorist...

[Dervacumen]

I could easily see them going after ROM burners.

It's kind of amazing they aren't, actually.

...before you know they will raid mame cabinet builders too.

How many of the confiscated cabinets would find themselves in a police station lunchroom?

[shmokes]

I love that people talk about a ridiculous "interpretation" of the DMCA.  Mod chips, according to the DMCA, are simply illegal.  Period.  It says it plainly.  The law is bad, not the interpretation of it.  The law or at least portions of the law, need to be overturned not reinterpreted.

[Grasshopper]

I think the issue is not the wording of the DMCA but the fact that it appears to be in direct conflict with laws already in place relating to property rights. That's where the law is potentially open to being challenged.

And let's not forget that the Australian version of the DMCA was successfully challenged.

[tommy]

I can compare this situation to it being legal to sell pipes for smoking in stores. While it is legal to sell the pipe everyone knows that it will be used to smoke illegal drugs. While the modded console should and is legal to own and buy the parts, we all know it will be used to play games you legally do not own. The point is , don't think you're fooling anyone when you buy something that is well known and has a bad rep for being used in an illegal way.

No one buys a colorfull pretty pipe to smoke tobacco and no one uses a console mod legally.

[shmokes]

The difference is that pipes are legal, whereas the DMCA specifically makes mod chips illegal.  It is, admittedly, the same thing in spirit.  But the difference is, actually, pretty important.

[ChadTower]

The difference is that a person can choose to smoke pot in a pipe.  They can also choose to smoke tobacco in a pipe.  The pipe has a legal purpose.

The modchip has no legal purpose.  And before someone waves the homebrew flag, circumventing device security in order to run unlicensed homebrew software is not a legal purpose.

[hypernova]

The modchip has no legal purpose.

What about playing an out of region game that isn't available in your own?  I'm not buying a Japanese PS2 to play my FFX International.  The way I figure it, I have a right to play a game from across the ocean, without buying the hardware with it.  Region lockout is a crock of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[sosuke]

I'm still trying to figure out why nintendo region locked the wii. It makes me sad. I can play Japanese games on my DS but not my Wii?  Oh well I guess there is no valid case for mod-chips....

[shmokes]

The difference is that a person can choose to smoke pot in a pipe.  They can also choose to smoke tobacco in a pipe.  The pipe has a legal purpose.

The modchip has no legal purpose.  And before someone waves the homebrew flag, circumventing device security in order to run unlicensed homebrew software is not a legal purpose.

That's exactly right.  It's bad law, as I should be able to do whatever the eff I want to with electronics that I've purchased, and if that means modifying it so I can play homebrew (something that is none of the company's business), I should be able to.  But it is, nevertheless, illegal.  It shouldn't be illegal, but it is.  If they outlawed glass pipes, based on what they are often used for, it would be the same thing, and it too would be bad law.  But so far, they haven't done that which makes the two examples quite different.

[ChadTower]

The modchip has no legal purpose.

What about playing an out of region game that isn't available in your own?  I'm not buying a Japanese PS2 to play my FFX International.  The way I figure it, I have a right to play a game from across the ocean, without buying the hardware with it.  Region lockout is a crock of ---Cleveland steamer---.

Region lockout is a necessary evil.  Playing out of region games is also not a legal use.  The unfortunate fact is that region coding is the only way to protect the various rights of various copyright holders via international copyright law. 

[shmokes]

I disagree.  The supposed reason for region lockouts is so that rights aren't diluted, for example, a game that is published by Koei in Japan, might be sold to Activision for distribution in the U.S., and the title isn't worth as much to Activision if people are able to import the game from Japan, because then Koei is making the money on those purchases, rather than Activision, even though the buyer lives in Activision's territory.  But that's nonsense.  Hardly anyone imports, and if they do, they get a different product.  Activision is going to territorialize the thing, translating menus into English and probably doing new voicework, or at the very least adding English subtitles.  An importer is importing a different product than the one Activision is selling, and if they want the benefits Activision brings to the table, they will have to buy the Activision-published title.  The fact is, the number of importers is so small to begin with as to be irrelevant, but in reality, even they tend to be hard core and just import a handful of titles to get their hands on them early, while STILL eventually buying the American version as well once it is released.  Region lockout is an anticompetitive crock of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and should be illegal, rather than making it illegal to circumvent.

[ChadTower]

I disagree.  The supposed reason for region lockouts is so that rights aren't diluted, for example, a game that is published by Koei in Japan, might be sold to Activision for distribution in the U.S., and the title isn't worth as much to Activision if people are able to import the game from Japan, because then Koei is making the money on those purchases, rather than Activision, even though the buyer lives in Activision's territory.

It's not a law written specifically for video games... it applies straight across the board for many types of IP.  I see no problems with it other than that people want what they want how they want it and don't like dealing with realities like IP ownership.

[Samstag]

I disagree.  The supposed reason for region lockouts is so that rights aren't diluted, for example, a game that is published by Koei in Japan, might be sold to Activision for distribution in the U.S., and the title isn't worth as much to Activision if people are able to import the game from Japan, because then Koei is making the money on those purchases, rather than Activision, even though the buyer lives in Activision's territory.

It's not a law written specifically for video games... it applies straight across the board for many types of IP.  I see no problems with it other than that people want what they want how they want it and don't like dealing with realities like IP ownership.

You don't see a problem with the fact that in running XBMC on your xbox YOU are breaking the same law that is getting these people busted?  You don't have a problem with the fact that the feds can enter your home and take all your consoles because of this?

[Green Giant]

Why do people claim the only reason for modchips is to run games illegally.

I know 3 different people who have modded systems.  One of them uses it illegally, but the other two don't.

One is a friend of mine from Japan.  He prefers the Japanese RPG's as well as other Japanese games simply because he can read japanes better.  He still wants to play American games, but not have to go through the trouble of owning 2 PS2, and they don't import every game overseas to America.  Another guy has kids.  His kids destroy his discs.  He has gone through several copies of games he owns.  How do you suggest he replace his games when they get destroyed.  Take it to best buy and tell them it scratches to easily.

Last I checked, they ruled it legal to make MP3's out of music you already own so long as you don't distribute them.  Would the DMCA make all mp3 ripping software illegal now since it could be used to distribute music to people who don't rightfully own them?  Why aren't they after that too?

[Green Giant]

No worries about mame:

"Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

[shardian]

No worries about mame:

"Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

Please don't drag MAME into this. It and the DMCA has been discussed TOO MANY times on here and it always gets ugly.

[ChadTower]

Dude, the law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law.  Modding your console to play Japanese games is not legal, whether you want it to be or not.  If your friend wants to play Japanese games the legal method is to get a Japanese console.  His convenience and cost are not relevant to the law.

Dude's kids destroying his discs don't make it legal to use backups.  It simply doesn't.

Now, I don't have any issues with modding the console to do those things, but pretending they are legal is personal denial.

I do run XBMC.  I'm not worried about it... they haven't and likely never will go after end users.  Especially people do did their own mod and only their own mods.  They'll go after people profiting financially from the process.  That's not me.

[shmokes]

The law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law.  But when Rosa Parks gets all back of the bus on us, some people talk about the law being clear, and some people talk about the law being bad.  It is bad law for all the reasons that Green Giant said it is.

[Dervacumen]

Dude's kids destroying his discs don't make it legal to use backups.  It simply doesn't.

I believe that would be me.  And the cost of the ensuing lawsuit probably keeps anyone from bugging me.
Heck I could mount my own defense with no legal background and cost the system and taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.  And they could confiscate nothing since I haven't found a Wii game I even want to buy yet.  Crap, I haven't even found one that I want to illegally copy.  And I've rented a few.  I guess they could take my chip.  It's not installed yet and I've had it since May.

I also driven an average of 5-10 MPH over the speed limit on the freeway for the last 20 years without a ticket.  I like to live on the edge.

[ChadTower]

And some people will compare region encoding on a video game platform to a major human rights problem.   

Keep the analogies in scale, man.

I got a ticket for going 20 in a 15 in the fall.   

[Green Giant]

Stop saying the law is clear!!!  I just read the DMCA.  It is not clear.

The portion they are attempting to apply to these modchip installers is extremely ambiguous.

"‘‘(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
‘‘(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
‘‘(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;   
‘‘(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. "

This clearly states that the burden of proof is on the government to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the installer knows the modchip with a hacked bios.

This is an exact copy of the law.  Stop saying it is clear.

All the installer would need do is show there are alternative uses for the modchip.  If he does not install bios or offer any information on where to get it, he is innocent.  There are completely original xbox bios' that can be installed with a modchip.  They do not infringe in any way on the bios that comes with an xbox.  The fact that something like this exists makes him innocent unless he was stupid enough to offer advice on installing a hacked bios.

[Green Giant]

Modding your console to play Japanese games is not legal, whether you want it to be or not.  If your friend wants to play Japanese games the legal method is to get a Japanese console.  His convenience and cost are not relevant to the law.

Dude's kids destroying his discs don't make it legal to use backups.  It simply doesn't.

I was referencing those examples because several people have claimed the one and only use for a modchip is to play games you do not own.  You can legally own an imported game which you buy overseas, but a modded system or a whole new system from Japan are the only ways to play it.  Just trying to explain to people that there is more to a modchip than playing copied games.

[ChadTower]

There is no alternative use for the modchip.  The law covers all potential uses:  backups (illegally copied software), homebrew (unlicensed software), region circumvention.

There is no other purpose.

No one has claimed the only purpose is to play games you do not own.  Not here.

[patrickl]

You are allowed to make a backup.

[ChadTower]

That is one of those "grey areas" most people talk about.  As I understand it, you are allowed to make a backup if you don't have to circumvent copy protections in the process, because security circumvention is specifically illegal.  Since few console games can be copied without circumventing the physical security on the disc, the law seems to preclude console games from that concept.

[patrickl]

Oh, I thought you were always allowed to make a backup, but that it's not a right. So you cannot claim that DRM is keeping you from your "right" to make a backup.

On the other hand if installing a mod chip is not illegal if you can find a non-illegal use for it then making and using a legal backup would make it all legal wouldn't it?  Or is that really stretching it?

[ChadTower]

Depends on the modchip.  Some do more "alteration" than others.

[Samstag]

Stop saying the law is clear!!!  I just read the DMCA.  It is not clear.

The portion they are attempting to apply to these modchip installers is extremely ambiguous.

"‘‘(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
‘‘(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

It is clear.  This is the important part in regard to modchips.  If the manufacturer designs copy protection into the system, it is illigal to produce or distribute any device that breaks or circumvents the protection.  That means that no matter what purpose you actually use the modchip for, the fact that you are bypassing a security feature makes your mod illegal.  Also note that it covers services, so even a softmod that breaks protection is outlawed.

This does not cover making your own mp3s from an audio CD because there is no security built into an audio CD.

[patrickl]

This does not cover making your own mp3s from an audio CD because there is no security built into an audio CD.

RIAA claims that ripping mp3 files from audio CD's is illegal though.

[ChadTower]

RIAA will say anything to get you to buy a CD.  The game industry has suffered little as a result of piracy... the music industry, on the other hand, has been torn down raped slapped around and laughed at.

[Green Giant]

There is no alternative use for the modchip.  The law covers all potential uses:  backups (illegally copied software), homebrew (unlicensed software), region circumvention.

There is no other purpose.

No one has claimed the only purpose is to play games you do not own.  Not here.

The law specifically says modification of software to break the copyright protection.  Modchips as a hardware piece are just chips holding code.  The code on them is what causes problems.  As a whole, modchips from the manufacturer only come with a homewritten bios that allows homebrew applications, nothing that would be called illegal.  The bios that bypasses copyright is the illegal part.

Homebrew is the area that will save modchips.  As long as a developer writes his own entirely new bios for an xbox, it is legal.  You are just using the hardware, not changing the internal xbox bios that protects copyright.  Should the new bios created from scratch allow play of copied games, then it is illegal, otherwise they have no case. 

However, this is the important part, if the entirely new homebrew firmware/bios only allows homebrew applications, possibly even windows or linux, then it is legal.

They are probably forced to confiscate the systems from the modder to see if he has uploaded any illegal bios'.  The modchip allows the bios to be installed, but until you actually recommend this or install this, you have not violated the DMCA.  If the guy never emailed anyone with tips on installing a bios to bypass the xbox copyright, then he has not broken the DMCA.

Remember that the government will have to prove that the vast majority of modchip users only use modchips to play backed up games.  Since this is impossible, they will have to show anyone installing a modchip provided information that would allow the user to bypass xbox copyright protection.

[ChadTower]

Except that the Xbox requires the bios to be compiled with an official, signed, Microsoft XDK or else the Xbox will reject it.

There is no way to duplicate that without the XDK and the only way to get the XDK is to license or steal it.  That makes it impossible to write an Xbox bios from scratch without a license.

[Green Giant]

This does not cover making your own mp3s from an audio CD because there is no security built into an audio CD.

RIAA claims that ripping mp3 files from audio CD's is illegal though.

Hence the reason I haven't bought a cd in over 4 years.  I don't think I have seen someone use a portable cd-player since then too.

[Green Giant]

Except that the Xbox requires the bios to be compiled with an official, signed, Microsoft XDK or else the Xbox will reject it.

There is no way to duplicate that without the XDK and the only way to get the XDK is to license or steal it.  That makes it impossible to write an Xbox bios from scratch without a license.

"There are two types of alternative BIOS in wide use on Xbox modchips. The first is the completely legal Cromwell BIOS, and its derivatives, which were developed by the Xbox Linux Project and contain 100% "cleanroom" GPL-licensed code which can be used to boot Linux from the Xbox hard drive or DVD drive."

This turns the xbox into a computer.  You do not need anycode from microsoft, hence it is 100% legal.

[Green Giant]

Cromwell is a replacement firmware for the Microsoft Xbox gaming console that has been developed by the Xbox Linux Project. If programmed onto the onboard flash chip of the Xbox or a modchip, it can boot the Linux operating system and practically convert the Xbox into a full PC.

It is unusual in that it is a legal firmware (because it does not use any of Microsoft's code to function) and was developed primarily through reverse-engineering of the original MS bios and its boot process. In light of this, many Xbox modchip manufacturers ship this firmware with their chips to avoid litigation and copyright infringement claims.

Using this firmware makes modchips perfectly legal.  They are not in violation of the DMCA as long as this code exists.  Other systems could be more problematic, but if the modder was working on an xbox, he did nothing wrong.

[slycrel]

Sounds like you got lied to, bro... law enforcement doesn't go into people's homes, seize their goods, and not charge the person with anything.  It's either illegal to have them, and they get charged / good seized, or it's not illegal and they do nothing.

Not true.  This kind of crap has happened before and will continue to happen.

Check out this quote about operation sundevil in the early 90's...
http://www.chriswaltrip.com/sterling/crack3b.html

        Hackers are generally not indicted (if at all) until the evidence in their seized computers is evaluated -- a process that can take weeks, months -- even years. When hackers are arrested on the spot, it's generally an arrest for other reasons. Drugs and/or illegal weapons show up in a good third of anti-hacker computer seizures (though not during Sundevil).

Anyhow, just thought I'd point that out.  It's certainly not unheard of for this to happen.  It may or may not be legal, but it does happen.

Sorry for the sidetrack.  I've been stuck in WoWland so haven't been here for a few days.  =)

[Samstag]

This does not cover making your own mp3s from an audio CD because there is no security built into an audio CD.

RIAA claims that ripping mp3 files from audio CD's is illegal though.

It's copyright infringment,  but it's not covered by the DMCA because it doesn't break any protections.  I mentioned it because green Giant asked how it was different.

[Samstag]

Oops.  My edit skills suck today.

[Samstag]

Cromwell is a replacement firmware for the Microsoft Xbox gaming console that has been developed by the Xbox Linux Project. If programmed onto the onboard flash chip of the Xbox or a modchip, it can boot the Linux operating system and practically convert the Xbox into a full PC.

It is unusual in that it is a legal firmware (because it does not use any of Microsoft's code to function) and was developed primarily through reverse-engineering of the original MS bios and its boot process. In light of this, many Xbox modchip manufacturers ship this firmware with their chips to avoid litigation and copyright infringement claims.

Using this firmware makes modchips perfectly legal.  They are not in violation of the DMCA as long as this code exists.  Other systems could be more problematic, but if the modder was working on an xbox, he did nothing wrong.

The firmware is perfectly legal.  The modchip is not.  It breaks the xbox's designed control in order to run the legal firmware. 

Edit: Fixed my pitiful quote-fu.

[ChadTower]

That "legal firmware" is highly questionable... this is one area where just as many people say "hell no it's not" as declare it perfectly legal.  Without decompiling it to see if it is actually XDK signed there is no way to know.

[Green Giant]

Cromwell is a replacement firmware for the Microsoft Xbox gaming console that has been developed by the Xbox Linux Project. If programmed onto the onboard flash chip of the Xbox or a modchip, it can boot the Linux operating system and practically convert the Xbox into a full PC.

It is unusual in that it is a legal firmware (because it does not use any of Microsoft's code to function) and was developed primarily through reverse-engineering of the original MS bios and its boot process. In light of this, many Xbox modchip manufacturers ship this firmware with their chips to avoid litigation and copyright infringement claims.

Using this firmware makes modchips perfectly legal.  They are not in violation of the DMCA as long as this code exists.  Other systems could be more problematic, but if the modder was working on an xbox, he did nothing wrong.

The firmware is perfectly legal.  The modchip is not.  It breaks the xbox's designed control in order to run the legal firmware. 

Edit: Fixed my pitiful quote-fu.

That is the very argument that will be debated in court.  The DMCA is so obscure that any halfway decent lawyer will be able to use it to either defend or persecute someone.  This should be interesting to watch.  It could easily go to the supreme court or warrant a new revision to the bill to clarify things.

[Green Giant]

If companies really want to protect their products, they should modify the hardware.  The Wii has 5 little solder points that serve absolutely no reason but to make attaching a modchip easier.  You would think friction welding the case together instead of easy to remove screws would reduce the people willing to mod their system to a handful.

The applications of this law are far to vague.  It won't be long till companies are using it to sue other companies instead of taking on the little guy.  Anyone know when support and production of the PS2 and xbox will end?  After it is off the market it is fair game.

[ChadTower]

If companies really want to protect their products, they should modify the hardware.  The Wii has 5 little solder points that serve absolutely no reason but to make attaching a modchip easier. 

They're probably surface test points for use in debugging and automated testing during manufacturing.  That's what most console mod spots are actually.  There is nothing on the board that is there for no reason.  Everything on that motherboard cost money to put there.

[shmokes]

And some people will compare region encoding on a video game platform to a major human rights problem.   

Keep the analogies in scale, man.

I got a ticket for going 20 in a 15 in the fall.   

Oh yay, the analogy police are back who don't understand the purpose of an anology.   

The difference in scale is to help you understand a concept you were unable to grasp.  The strong analog is meant to help you grok the concept of a thing not being right just because it is legal or wrong just because it is illegal, not to suggest that the two things are equal in importance.  Or do you mean to tell me that unless we are talking about major human rights issues all laws are good and just?

[Havok]

F Nintendo, F Microsoft and F Sony.

Show them how much they are going to lose this year by not supporting them...

[ChadTower]

The difference in scale is to help you understand a concept you were unable to grasp.  The strong analog is meant to help you grok the concept of a thing not being right just because it is legal or wrong just because it is illegal, not to suggest that the two things are equal in importance.  Or do you mean to tell me that unless we are talking about major human rights issues all laws are good and just?

Save the hyperbole for someone who needs it to grasp a concept.  It's not worth using in a reasonable discussion among intellingent people as all it does is dilute the point with a comparison to something completely unlike the topic.  You and I both know this is nothing like civil rights.

[shmokes]

Once again, the analogy was made to point out that illegality != wrong.  However, I don't divorce it completely from a civil rights issue, as property is clearly mingled up in civil rights (4th amendment).  When Microsoft sells you something and continues to exercise what look very much like property rights (telling you how you can and cannot use it), there are civil rights issues implicated, which is why we will likely see these issues playing out in federal, possibly the Supreme Court.

Dude, the law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law. 

You're making statements like this that suggest that it's just black and white -- if the law says so, it is so.  Rosa Parks is an obvious example of that not being the case.  I used Rosa Parks because you obviously understand the concept in this context; wtf would be the point in using an analog that would be just as difficult for you to understand as the mod chip thing?    

[KenToad]

I think you're both right. 

Shmokes, the analogy is not wrong, but definitely ridiculously extreme, and so carries a whole can of worms unrelated to the point, i.e. property rights and civil rights are not really comparable, IMO.

But, Chad, you are somewhat irritating in your persistent rationalizing of injustice in this world.  What happened to those guys who modded consoles is effing scary in its blatant harassment of the little guy in a large problem.  That's worth admitting. 

Anyway,   

[Green Giant]

Dude, the law is clear, and the feds are acting according to the law. 

Just to point out, the law isn't clear.  It is just about as obscure as you could expect something from congress to be.  I could easily defend those modders using the very law the government is using to persecute them.  You could also use that very law to do a search and siezure of basically anyones computer assuming it has access to the internet.

[shmokes]

The law is crystal clear, it doesn't matter if the mod chip has alternative purposes if the primary purpose is illegal.  The law states that.  It's also worth noting that running linux or homebrew on the system still requires that you "[circumvent] a technological measure that effectively controls access".  The mod chip does absolutely nothing other than exactly that.  It circumvents the boxes security.  It breaks the law, in a very clear way, before any software is even installed.  It's a ridiculous law that needs overturned as soon as possible, but it's still the law, and it's not ambiguous.

[SavannahLion]

My eyes glazed over on this last page, so I don't know if it's been commented on.

I don't know of any court case where hardware chips, such as a mod chip, was declared illegal. There are court cases where circuit designs within the chip infringes patents, but the hardware itself is usually not. In the case of the Wii, it's doubly a problem.

Some of the Wii chips out there are based on controllers from Atmel and Microchip, readily available to any hobbyist (for now). I have a Wii and I also have some of the controllers in the same house. Under DMCA, it can be construed that I'm illegally installing the controllers into the Wii even though I have not done so. But the real danger doesn't lie there, the real danger lies with how the case is handled. If you think carefully about it. If the raid captures the general purpose microcontrollers I mentioned and the judge allows the evidence into the case, that could conceivably pave the way for bigger problems in the future. eg asinine restrictions on controllers. What if Randy can't purchase his controllers because of some silly restriction placed on their purchase, even though his devices have nothing to do with the mod chips? What if the manufacturers, so fearful of repercussions from the DMCA, discontinue whole lines of controllers and weaken entire markets because of their use in DMCA illegal mods (which was a protected right by the way)?

Yeah, I know I'm reaching but no one seems to get it. I work in a storage facility where old records are kept. Most of the time, examining rat ---Cleveland steamer--- is more interesting than pulling up old laws from 1855. But once in a great while, a gem or two will fall out. Here's one. Back in the early 1980's or so, a motorcycle helmet law tried to make its way through the Legislature. Hundreds of people bitched and moaned and wrote letters to the Governor about the injustice and unfairness of the law. "People should have the right to choose whether they wear helmets or not," they wrote. "The law should not force people to make choices for them," they shouted. The law was vetoed. Around 1985 (IIRC), the law found it's way into the Legislature again. This time, it specified that helmets were a requirement only for children under 16 (IIRC). For those over 16, it was still a choice. Again the people howled, but not as loudly. Many people simply grumbled that it was reasonable that children should wear helmets, as long as it wasn't a requirement for adults. So the law was passed.

That 1985'ish law did something though. About five years later, the original law of adults wearing helmets entered the legislation again. But something weird happened. The law passed. Yeah, there was a lot of howling. Sure there were people who refused. But by then the under 16 crowd are now 21, way past the legal voting age and many had children of their own. Parents, who saw their children wearing helmets, essentially encouraged the bill to pass through the legislation.

There are lots and lots of examples like that. Small laws that get passed (DMCA) which make way for other laws which make way for even bigger laws. Everyone is so hell bent on focusing on the DMCA (which someone should) that nobody is really focusing on the bigger picture. That the DMCA, combined with other laws, is going to to suppress people around the world in an unparalleled way. Look at how the DMCA affects other countries, such as Germany.

There is something seriously ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up with this country when the voter turnout is barely 50% (by comparison, some countries are as high as 95%), that there isn't an uproar (not just bitching) over those damn diebold machines, that someone (Debra Bowen) stands up and actually decertifies voting machines with practically zero news coverage. What the ---fudgesicle--- were we thinking, impeaching Clinton over sex? We should've kicked Clinton's ass out over the DMCA. Instead this country just farted, rolled over, and replayed Clinton's "boxers or briefs" question in between episodes of Friends.

What we need is the people to get pissed off and we need to fight back. We need another Tiananmen Square to get peoples attention. Don't worry, with the iPod, you won't hear the tank drive up.

I think I'm done ranting now.  I don't feel any better though. 

[Green Giant]

The law is crystal clear, it doesn't matter if the mod chip has alternative purposes if the primary purpose is illegal.  The law states that.  It's also worth noting that running linux or homebrew on the system still requires that you "[circumvent] a technological measure that effectively controls access".  The mod chip does absolutely nothing other than exactly that.  It circumvents the boxes security.  It breaks the law, in a very clear way, before any software is even installed.  It's a ridiculous law that needs overturned as soon as possible, but it's still the law, and it's not ambiguous.

You are miss quoting and leaving out the important stuff in your quote, but you just proved my point that reading it different ways can either condone or defend modchips.

It specifically states, "‘‘(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
‘‘(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;"

Removing the bios entirely is comparable to actually removing the chip itself or destroying an xbox.  Clearly breaking it is not against the law.  Then a modchip can allow you to drop the linux operating system onto the xbox.  Unless the feds get a confession from a modchip maker admitting their chip is designed for the sole purpose of circumventign copyrighted material, they have no case.  You can easily argues point B of the law which states it must have limited significance outside of bypassing the xbox bios.  Since you can replace the xbox bios with an original bios, you are not circumventing a boxes security. 

If they really want a case, they should go after anyone and everyone providing access to the hacked xbox bios.  Now other systems will be harder to defend as I don't think the PS2 or Wii modchips can utilize any software that wasn't hacked from the orignal makers.

There is something seriously ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up with this country when the voter turnout is barely 50% (by comparison, some countries are as high as 95%),

You are stretching it a bit there.  Only one country, Australia, actually reached 95% voter turnout, and they only made that because you get fined for not voting.  Malta has the highest legal voter turnout at 94%.  The main factor is that most Americans are happy with life and have no reason to run to the polls.

Well, actually there is one country.  North Korea recently had an election with 99.9% of the population voting.  The amazing thing is that Kim Jong recieved 100% of the vote from those people.  Damn, wish we had that kind of support for out government.

[shmokes]

 Since you can replace the xbox bios with an original bios, you are not circumventing a boxes security. 

Of course you are.  The Xbox bios is part of the box's security.  The sole purpose, in fact, of replacing the Xbox bios with an original bios (or hacked bios, for that matter) is specifically to circumvent the box's security so that you can run unsigned code on the hardware.  Your logic about removing the bios is akin to breaking the box, and since breaking the box is not illegal, removing the bios must also not be illegal is completely wacky.  You've got your Venn diagram all ass backwards in your head.  Smashing your Xbox over someone's head would also break the system, but that doesn't make it legal just because breaking your Xbox is legal.  The loophole you're trying to capitalize on doesn't exist.

[northerngames]

what if a tsop went bad on an origanal xbox and it flash's orange and red and no longer works or will work and you threw a chip in with the same stock bios in order to make the console work again like stock?

it would do nothing but work like an origanal xbox that way.

therefore it was used as a repair tool.

[Green Giant]

what if a tsop went bad on an origanal xbox and it flash's and you threw a chip in with the same stock bios in order to make the console work again?

it would do nothing but work like an origanal xbox that way.

According to shmokes, it would be illegal to do that.  The xbox bios is just a small chip that can easily be removed and flashed with some extra hardware.  All the modchip does is circumvent removing the bios chip.  You cold easily completely remove the chip and drop in a replacement from whoever made it.  Would this be illegal too?  I would say it isn't, but I guess some people think otherwise. 

Completely changing the bios with a new one that runs linux is not bypassing Microsoft security.  The point of the law is to prevent anything that can bypass copyrighted material.  The optional linux operating system for xbox does not in any way allow copyrighted microsoft games to be viewed, played, or utilized in any way.

And removing the bios is akin to destroying an xbox.  If I took out your bios chip and trashed it, by your theory it would be impossible to repair legally, even if you just flashed a new chip with the original unhacked xbox bios.

Smashing your Xbox over someone's head would also break the system, but that doesn't make it legal just because breaking your Xbox is legal. 

Actually smashing it over someone's head is illegal but for completely different reasons.


Have you actually taken a look at the DMCA?  Not just a summarization.

[northerngames]

Team-Xecuter got raided also they were probably the leading brand of xbox aftermarket parts since they ran there own cromwell based bios off linux there site is still up and they did not take all of there harddrives pc and video game stuff away like others apparently they were asked not to do it no more and they agreed that they would not mkae them no more but I dont recall them saying anyone got in trouble.

EDIT: as for my prior post above shmokes is probably right becuase in the laws eye's that tsop could have been removed and replace by another off another motherboard just as easy as having the repair chip installed.

[Green Giant]

So far I don't think anyone has been charged with anything for making/distributing modchips.

Stuff has been confiscated, but no charges filed.  They are trying to make a case first.

But like I have been saying this whole time, they have no case unless they can show a modchip maker/distributer provided access to hacked xbox bios or a location to obtain it.  Unless the law is revised, team-xecuter can start back up production of their modchips.

[northerngames]

nothing was taken form them and they agreed to cease production of the chips but they are still going to make the aftermarket case's fans etc.

they were not selling an illegal bios on any of thier products nor copyrighted games so I assume that is why nothing was ceased.

[More Cowbell]

Team-Xecuter got raided also they were probably the leading brand of xbox aftermarket parts since they ran there own cromwell based bios off linux there site is still up and they did not take all of there harddrives pc and video game stuff away like others apparently they were asked not to do it no more and they agreed that they would not mkae them no more but I dont recall them saying anyone got in trouble.

EDIT: as for my prior post above shmokes is probably right becuase in the laws eye's that tsop could have been removed and replace by another off another motherboard just as easy as having the repair chip installed.

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

[ChadTower]

The xbox bios is just a small chip that can easily be removed and flashed with some extra hardware. 

This is not true.  The Xbox BIOS exists in multiple parts in multiple places on the motherboard with parts of it specifically hidden in larger packages and dynamically loaded at boot time via jump opcodes.  That's why it took an EE PhD candidate to find it.  There is no single ROM that holds the entire BIOS and the BIOS is in fact physically implemented in a manner that makes it impossible to even read it without going through the system's security.

[Green Giant]

Still seems like a sketchy implementation of the law.  Wonder why microsoft waited so long to squelch the modchip industry.  All they are doing is applying an old law in a new way.

This is probably why nintendo is cracking down.  The xbox is to far gone on modification to stop now, but the wii modchip industry could be destroyed before it can grow.

This is not true.  The Xbox BIOS exists in multiple parts in multiple places on the motherboard with parts of it specifically hidden in larger packages and dynamically loaded at boot time via jump opcodes.  That's why it took an EE PhD candidate to find it.  There is no single ROM that holds the entire BIOS and the BIOS is in fact physically implemented in a manner that makes it impossible to even read it without going through the system's security.

As for that, guess I was thinking of a friend I knew that worked at a certain major computer/printer maker that would softmod xbox's by flashing a chip he took out of it.

[northerngames]

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

not much I guess it's more of a bad habit

just curious, do you burn foreigner's at the stake? 

[Samstag]

Just curious, how much time does it save you to not type any punctuation or capitals? 

not much I guess it's more of a bad habit

just curious, do you burn foreigner's at the stake? 

Don't let them get you down, man.  I had a friend like you who came from an underpriviledged country.  The whole town had one solitary keyboard they all had to share.  And they couldn't even afford a full keyboard.  Once a year after the fall harvest they would pool their small resources and buy another letter.  It's a little-known fact that they actually invented leet-speak, because they found that they could use a few numbers to signify many different letters.

Anyway, just wanted you to keep up your spirits.  One day your town will be able to afford a shift key.  With luck, you may become wealthy and purchase some punctuation keys.  Good luck!

[ChadTower]

He could get by with just the period key.  That's affordable.

[More Cowbell]

Pat Sajak charges way too much for vowels though.

[Samstag]

Pat Sajak charges way too much for vowels though.

4310J

Ok, so the J makes a pretty lame U, but I just saved you $1250!

[northerngames]

now were into wheel of fortune and poor people 

[elvis]

It's hilarious that American law treats mod-chippers in the same fashion as rapists and murderers.  The whole thing is an utter farce.  I imagine images of federal police busting in doors with rams, guns drawn, handcuffing "dangerous criminals" and confiscating chips and soldering irons.  The whole thing is laughable at best.  Go find some real criminals.

Nobody is going after the people doing the actual copyright infringement - the warez scene and bootleggers.  Too difficult perhaps?  Much easier to go and bust a few nerds instead.   People go on and on using copyright material illegally long after you put the mod-chippers in jail.

And lets not forget these utterly ludicrous "costs" the games industry keeps coming up with.  "Piracy costs us X billion dollars a year!!!".  Oh really?  You're assuming that every filthy little copyright infringer would pay for the 100 games they download and burn?  Remembering that most by demographic studies are unemployed children.  Assuming each and every copyright infringement would otherwise be a real sale if it was prevented is the silliest thing the games industry continues to profess each and every year.  Wake up to yourselves!

The DMCA itself is utterly stupid.  Anti-tinker laws trying to stop consumers doing what they like with their own hardware post-purchase.  I'm certainly against copyright infringement (buying games keeps the games industry alive, mmmkay?), but this is just silly.

I'm happy I live in a country that had the common sense to tell the DMCA to go suck itself.  I legally (in my country) mod for import play, and I pay for legitimate games from overseas.  If and when laws are put in place to prevent me from doing this, I'll stop buying games all together, and not give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- when we see another games industry crash ala 1983.

Ironically, if console manufacturers gave us

1) Region-free gaming and

2) The ability to run homebrew as we please

The whole reason for legal modchips would vanish.  I would certainly be a happy gamer if both of the above came standard with each console.  It was standard in the days of the Commodore 64 and Amiga.  Nintendo were the biggest pushers of import restrictions back in the day, and it seems modern consoles follow suit mindlessly.  Perhaps listening to your customers' requests would be a good start?

[sosuke]

Where do you live? I'll add it to my list of places I might want to move to!

[Grasshopper]

Where do you live? I'll add it to my list of places I might want to move to!

Australia.

Nice beaches too...