Yet another Tempest - Done!

[Paladin]

I just scored my third converted Tempest!  Due to several factors, the previous two cost me about $1000 each to finish.  After getting them up and running, I still had board/monitor issues crop up.  When I sold each one, they decided to flake out when the buyers showed up.

I've decided that this time I'm going to put a computer monitor in it and run MAME rather than spending the big bucks and going through the headaches of the original hardware.  I also plan on keeping this one - but of course that's what I said about the other two (and the one I had in the 90's).  As of now all I plan on running in it is Tempest, as I already have a 25" vertical MAME cab with arcade monitor.

I still had a few extra parts from my previous restores: unhacked control panel with passable CPO, original spinner and lighted cone buttons.  I've got a Mini-PAC, but am having trouble getting it to work with the Atari spinner optic board.  I've ordered an encoder board from fixumdude that should solve that problem.

I'll be looking for a cheap 21" monitor on craigslist for the display.  I recently gave away my spare computer to a friend at work that needed an upgrade, so I'll have to come up with a cheap PC.  I plan on replacing all the artwork with repro's, but I'll try to get it running first as the side art, CPO and marquee come to about $200.

I'm interested in the monitor mounting solutions being used by the couple other Tempest projects, as I've only dealt with vector and raster arcade monitor mounting so far.

When I removed the black vinyl from the sides I found that it had been replaced before, and most of the original art must have stuck to that vinyl.  The picture below shows the better of the two sides.  Before deciding to use my unhacked control panel, I stripped the panel that came with the cab.  I found it had been a Tempest, then an Arknoid, then some Fabtek game and finally Aero Fighters.  The bolts that held the metal lock bar on had been bent inside the cabinet, so I had to use a hacksaw to cut the bolts off close to the nuts in order to unscrew them.


 

[johnm160]

Nice find, I wish I could have found a donar cabinet to start with.

Monitor mounting was not as bad as I thought it woud be. Just be sure to figure out what the max mounting depth that will still allow you to close the back door is.

And don't go to fast, I don't want you finishing before me! 

[Paladin]

No worries on the speed, I'm still trying to finish my Defender cocktail which I'll problably sell as soon as it's working so I can use the money on the Tempest.

I just went over your project post again and think I may not be able to fit a 21" in there.  For the back door I was going to make a new one with a bubble in the back to fit whatever monitor I end up with - but after re-reading your project it looks like there may be more clearance issues to deal with than depth.

Do you think your 19" monitor is close enough in size to a 19" arcade monitor that you wouldn't really notice the difference?  I think 19" means 18" viewable, which sounds pretty darn close.  I also used to keep my original games about 1/2" away from the sides of the screen to lessen the strain on the monitor circuitry.

There are usually several free 19" monitors on craigslist, but the free 21" seem to go really quick.  Hmmmm...

[johnm160]

The bubble in the back is a nice idea. The other main issue will be the space between the bottom of the marquee and the top of the control panel.

I am going to my inlaws house today, my other mame machine is there with a 19" arcade monitor in it. I will measure it and compare it to the 19" PC monitor I have in the tempest.

I will post the results later tonight or tomorrow morning for you.

-John

[MaximRecoil]

Have you thought about running VectorMAME in it? That way you don't have to deal with the original hardware, but you still have the color vector monitor, which is a big part of the appeal of any vector game IMO.

[Paladin]

Yea, but a working vector monitor is around $300.  Also consider that the majority of vector games were horizontal, where Tempest is vertical.

[johnm160]

After looking at the 19" PC monitor in my Tempest and the arcade monitor in my other machine the difference is just under an inch on the diagnal. To stand there and look at them, I cannot say I REALLY noticed a difference. The machines are not in the same location so I am not compairing side to side. But I cannot say I notice that it is smaller when I am playing it.

Hope this helps

[theCoder]

I also plan on keeping this one - but of course that's what I said about the other two (and the one I had in the 90's). 

You must be pretty good at Tempest.  What is your record score / level?

[Paladin]

Thanks for checking that, it looks like I'll go with a 19".  It sounds like the extra hassle of mounting a 21" isn't really worth the difference in size.

As for my high score, I've forgotten it since it was back in the 80's.  I know it was somewhere in the 800,000's.  The arcade I used to play at had revision 1 ROMs and I can't remember if I got that score by using the cheat to start at a high level, or if it was "legit".  For what it's worth, my friend and I discovered the 40 free credit and level start cheat codes on our own by accident.

Even though I've had a couple machines in the last few years, I still haven't had a marathon session.  After building them I don't seem to play them much.  I never even bother to play it on my MAME cabinet, as it doesn't have a spinner.  Once I get this project running I'm planning on seeing what I can do. 

[Chris G]

Ah, Dr. Tempest is at it again!    Will have to come check it out and get a proper Tempest lesson when you're done.  But first - finish that cocktail!

 
Chris

[Luigi]

It seems that almost every arcade collector in USA got at least one Tempest 


Here in Germany it's almost impossible to find one 

[ChadTower]

Anyone who restores Tempests is all right with me.  One of the all time great games.

If it makes you feel better, Luigi, I'm a vector person and I don't have one either. 

[Luigi]

Anyone who restores Tempests is all right with me.  One of the all time great games.

If it makes you feel better, Luigi, I'm a vector person and I don't have one either. 

I once had a Tempest spinner in my hands and gave it away.....

Meanwhile I would build a Tempest from scratch with a Mame-PC..... 

[ChadTower]

I have a Tempest spinner.  I have no Tempest to put it in.

[Paladin]

I just got a replacement optic board from "fixumdude".  Very fast shipping, and a quality product.  I was having a hard time getting the original Atari optic board to work with the Mini-PAC, as the signal voltage was too high.  I added a 1K ohm resistor to the signal lines, but it pulled it down too much.  I decided to order an optic board from fixumdude rather than spending more time and money on soldering different value resistors to the Atari board until I hit the right one.

I drilled a couple holes in the new optic board, mounted it to the Tempest spinner and Mini-PAC and it worked first try!

[johnm160]

I see you got the spinner working but just for reference the original spinner worked perfect with an Optiwiz from GGG.

[rockin_rick]

I also am planning on a Tempest replica with PC monitor.  The unique emulation requirements vs. 'normal' mame games (spinner, high res screen) along with a cool cab, and awesome game makes a prime canidate for a dedicated cab.

Back to the monitor for a bit...  Could someone measure the distance from the monitor mounting board to the back/back door?  I'm thinking a couple measurements, say at the top of the opening for the monitor and perpendicular back and also at the bottom of the opening perpendicular back.  It would be most appreciated...

Thanks,
Rick

[Paladin]

Top of the mounting board to back is 12", bottom to back is 17".  That's measuring from the back of the board, not including the board.  The board is 3/4" thick.

I just got a used 19" PC monitor and spent the afternoon de-casing it and making a couple small brackets to keep the chassis attached to the tube.  Now I just have to figure out how to stuff it in there.

A rough try shows that I'll have to enlarge the width of the original monitor opening.  I've had converted Tempest's that had horizontal monitors in them, and Atari even did it to convert them to Major Havoc so I won't feel too guilty about cutting it.  I'll make sure the original mounting bolts are untouched so it can still be returned to original hardware.

I won't able to tell if I have to modify the back door until I figure out how to mount it.  I'll post more pics when I've figured a way to shoehorn it in there.

[Paladin]

Another Tempest just popped up on Seattle craigslist.  This one's had a control panel graft.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/312544529.html

[Paladin]

Played my first game of Tempest tonight!  I mounted a de-cased 19" PC monitor to a piece of wood, then tipped the cab on it's face and attached the wood to the cab.  Mounted it from behind you might say...

Then to make sure the monitor still worked after all the jostling around I hooked my control panel (Mini-PAC) and monitor to my laptop, and started up a game.  Made it from level 9 to 28 in my first game.  You can see in the pics that I play cross-handed.  Using my left hand to fire just doesn't feel right!

I've got more pictures and details on my website at:
http://home.comcast.net/~dark.paladin/tempest3

[ChadTower]

How is the monitor dealing with the speed of the game?  Rasters commonly have a bit of trouble, the XYs were built for raw speed.

[Paladin]

Are you reffering to raster arcade monitors?  I'm using a 19" CRT PC monitor, and don't notice any speed issues.  I would think a modern PC monitor would be just as fast as a 25 year old vector monitor.

How would you tell if the monitor isn't dealing with the speed?  Would it be blurred, or have jerky movement?  I guess it runs fine as I don't see any odd behaviour, but I don't know what to look for.

[ChadTower]

Are you reffering to raster arcade monitors?  I'm using a 19" CRT PC monitor, and don't notice any speed issues.

That is a raster monitor, for the most part the same as an arcade monitor, just running at a different frequency.  The tube itself isn't all that different in either case nor is it all that different (if at all) from a vector monitor.  It may vary in terms of depth and deflection angle but that's pretty much it.

I would think a modern PC monitor would be just as fast as a 25 year old vector monitor.

Not at all.  A vector monitor is drawing only the lines that are specifically requested by the game board.  A raster monitor is performing a set frequency of complete screen (line by line) scans regardless of what it is drawing.  A PC monitor is drawing at 60khz (or a bit higher if configured that way) but that would still be far less efficient than directly drawing based on the raw XY coordinates.  This is why the vector monitor only draws lines and points and also why the vector monitor has no background.

How would you tell if the monitor isn't dealing with the speed?  Would it be blurred, or have jerky movement?  I guess it runs fine as I don't see any odd behaviour, but I don't know what to look for.

I'm guessing it would vary by monitor and possibly by how efficient the vector translation component of MAME works.  I haven't seen it firsthand very much so it's hard to tell.  The bottom line here is whether or not you're happy with what you have, really, so if it looks good to you you're all set.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the education!  I wasn't thinking about the whole screen vs. just the vectors issue.  I can see how that would definately make the raster type monitor work harder.  I'll have to pay attention once I get the cabinet further toward completion and get up to the higher levels with more going on.

This is the first time I've heard of this issue being raised, I wonder if anyone else has any input.

[Paladin]

I went to make the monitor bezel, and didn't like how far the monitor was from the glass.  I ended up cutting a couple 1" strips from the original mounting board so I could mount the monitor through the front.  In no way did I alter the ability to mount an original Tempest monitor in the future.  The cuts are covered by the bezel, and are not as dramatic as the cuts that my last two converted machines had.  Another benefiet is that the monitor doesn't stick so far out the back.  I'll still have to make a custom back door though.

I then made a bezel out of some mat board I had left from another project.  The board has a white core, but I used a black marker to fix that after I took the picture below.  I still have to glue the 4 pieces of mat board together, and find or buy the smoked glass.  The cabinet came with clear plexi.

[ChadTower]

Tempest definitely needs a smoked glass.  Be careful how dark you go, though, as vector monitors show up much better through smoked glass than a raster showing an emulated vector image.  Keep it fairly light.

[rockin_rick]

That's looking good.  I checked out your pics on your webpage, too.  Thanks for taking the time to post this info!

To move the monitor forward (from your original location), did you just mount the new monitor mounting board to the front of the original mounting board rather than the rear?

Could you post some more pics of how the monitor mounted to the board (either here or to your webpage)?

Could you post pics of your homemade chassis-to-tube brackets?

Do you think that you could reposition the chassis relative to the tube to get it to fit in the cab more?  Does the neck board stick out?

How close is the front of the monitor glass to the back of the bezel glass (that you don't have yet)?  Could you bring it forward more?  What if you had the monitor glass touching the bezel glass?


How deep is your monitor?  You probably can't measure it now, but...

from the front of the glass to the back of the neckboard?
front of glass to back of chassis?

If not measureable, how bout from the back of the new mounting board to those...

What is the model and make of your monitor?  (curious to what the advertised depth is...)

Top of the mounting board to back is 12", bottom to back is 17".  That's measuring from the back of the board, not including the board.  The board is 3/4" thick.

Are these dimensions from the original monitor mounting board?  Are they measurements horizontally back (aka perpendicular to the back panel) or are they perpendicular from the monitor mounting board?

Tempest definitely needs a smoked glass.  Be careful how dark you go, though, as vector monitors show up much better through smoked glass than a raster showing an emulated vector image.  Keep it fairly light.

I'm curious now... I got a couple pieces of midway (galaga type) smoked plexi in storage that I'll dig out and try out in front of my monitor and see how much it 'dims' the 'vectors'.  I'll try to get to that tonight and post pics if you'd like.


Thanks,
Rick

[Paladin]

Wow, a lot of questions there.  I'll try to answer them, let me know if I miss something.

The monitor is a 19" Viewsonic PF790 manufactured in 2000.  I removed the monitor from the case and the gray metal that's holding the chassis was already there.  I only had to make 2 small brackets to attach the chassis assembly to two of the mounting brackets on the tube.

My first attempt was mounting the monitor board behind the original Tempest mounting board, then I moved it to the front.  All this did was move the monitor 3/4" closer to the glass - and make it a lot easier to get in/out of the cab.

I could move the monitor 2 more inches forward, then it would be just about touching the glass.  This would get the monitor real close to fitting with the back door on.  What sticks out the most is the chassis, not the neckboard.  If I wanted to take the time to extend all the chassis wires I could mount the chassis so the back door would fit, but I'm not comfortable messing with monitors any more than necessary.

The plywood mounting panel I'm using is only 1/2 inch thick.  If I used thicker wood it would have the effect of bringing the monitor closer to the glass.  I could also make some spacers to put between the Tempest and the monitor board if I wanted to make it move forward.  I'll have to think about whether to try that once I run it again, although it would mean adjusting the bezel I just made.

The decased monitor is 16 and 1/2 inches from front of the monitor glass to the end of the neckboard, 17 and 1/2 from front of monitor glass to back of chassis.

I've got a piece of tinted plexi from a Midway cocktail cabinet, I think I'll put it in front of the monitor next time I test it to see how it looks.

To mount the monitor onto the wood, I removed the monitor from the plastic case then laid it on a piece of cardboard that was larger than the monitor.  I drew an outline around the tube on the cardboard, then cut it out.  I then transfered that to the wood, then cut it out.  It took several small adjustments to get the monitor to fit correctly. 

Most all monitors have small tabs at the corners that are used to attach them to the plastic case, just like arcade monitors use corner tabs to mount the tube to the metal frame.  You have to make your tube opening just large enough for the tube to fit through, as well as leave enough material to drill holes alligned with the mounting tabs.

The first picture shows one of the bottom mounting tabs that has a bolt running through it and the wood.  The second picture shows the small metal bracket I made that lines up with another mounting tab, and holds the chassis in its original position.

[rockin_rick]

Thanks for all your info, it helps a lot.  Sorry for the long list, I thought I'd just get it all out at once, rather than a bunch of back and forth postings...

[guiltily asking]Since you said to let you know if you missed one, I would be interested in knowing....[/guiltily asking]

Top of the mounting board to back is 12", bottom to back is 17".  That's measuring from the back of the board, not including the board.  The board is 3/4" thick.

Are these dimensions from the original monitor mounting board?  Are they measurements horizontally back (aka perpendicular to the back panel) or are they perpendicular from the monitor mounting board?

Thanks,
Rick

Thanks for taking the time to post your progress with this project!

Rick

[rockin_rick]

Any progress on this?

Rick

[Paladin]

I haven't posted an update as I've been working on some small but annoying software issues.

I got my volcano buttons wired up to the Mini-PAC, but although they worked when I manually pressed the caps and num lock keys on the keyboard they didn't work in MAME.  Some searching directed me to upgrade my MAME version to one that supports the led_mode switch.  After setting led_mode to usb, the lights work as they should.

My other cab uses noname .63, which has the "ok to continue" and "press any key" prompts removed.   It runs all the classics I'm interested in so I never felt a need to upgrade (other than to fix the Robotron speed issue).  Now I'm running .103, and the volcano buttons flash the way they're supposed to, but now I've got the "press any key" message every time Tempest starts.  Since this is going to be a Tempest only cab, I really don't want that nag screen there.  I don't know when I'll have a chance to learn how to compile it myself, but it's now on the TO DO list.

Another thing that changed between the two versions is that the default analog control settings in .63 worked perfectly with my spinner, but now I've got backspin to deal with.  I haven't tried the "dial" option in the .ini file, maybe that'll help - otherwise I'll just have to keep messing with it until I get the settings right.

On the construction side of it, I've added some 1/2" spacer blocks to my monitor mounting plate to get the monitor a little closer to the front.  This has thrown my monitor bezel out of whack, so I need to make another one.  I've also added a box to the back door with a PC fan in it.  The fan is running on 5v from the PC which makes it run slow enough that you can't hear it, but it draws warm air out from right behind the monitor.

Rick, I've attached a picture with some measurements that are as close to accurate as I could get.  I think they're what you were looking for.

[rockin_rick]

Thanks for the info.  The extra box doesn't look as intrusive as I had imagined.  I suppose keeping it as small as needed helps.

With the led volcano's, did you connect a resistor between the led and the mini-pac?  What value did you use?

With the analog control settings, perhaps you now have your mouse settings (speed, acceleration) effecting your input.  Or maybe it was the other way around.  I don't know a lot about it, but I'm pretty sure that the input method has changed somewhere along the way, and what version of windows you use matters, too.  Good info here (not turbotwist specific) -

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=62774

Rick

[Paladin]

I did use a 220 resistor with each of the original LED's.

Thanks for that link, it made me dizzy reading all that technical info!  It did bring up some points that I'll have to check on, such as what my mouse settings are on the XP based PC I'm using.

[Paladin]

Finally got to do some more work on the Tempest.  I finished the interior sides.  There were holes drilled all the way through the cab, presumably to hold a loose control panel on.  I filled the holes with wood putty, then sanded the slightly puffed sides smooth.  Next came primer and satin black paint.

I've also stripped the bad side art off, so next up will be sanding and patching the sides in preperation for new side art.  This is where it starts to get expensive...

Sides before:


Sides after:

[Paladin]

Finally got my artwork in.  I've got one side on, with new t-molding.  When I flipped it over to do the other side I found a couple areas that needed a bit more bondo and sanding.  Looking good so far!  I can't wait to get it back upright and put the electronics back in!

[ChadTower]

Nice!  I love a minty Tempest... enough that I just bought one.   

[More Cowbell]

This is a great thread. I have a nice stripped Tempest cab that I had planned on putting MAME in dedicated to Tempest. Great idea with the monitor mounted on a board and then mounted to the existing Tempest monitor board. I've looked at it 100 times and never considered that. It should be quite easy now. 

[Paladin]

I made a monitor bezel out of matt board, and put on a piece of graylite tempered glass.  I've also replaced the coin door with one in much better shape.  I'll eventually replace the control panel overlay, but the damage to it is on the bottom side, and you don't really notice it when looking at the cabinet in person.

The glass is so dark that I'll have to bump up the brightness of the monitor a little.  I also need to start playing around with hiding the windows desktop.  I have a power strip behind the coin door, so you just flip the switch to power it all on and it boots XP and starts Tempest.   When you're done you press P1 and P2 at the same time and Tempest/XP both shut down.  Then just turn off the power switch.

Because the major construction and hardware install is finished, I'm calling this one done!

[Level42]

That cab is so beautiful, it would deserve an original PCB and vector monitor........but hey, that's easier said than done....

[leapinlew]