An open letter to Nintendo...

[ChadTower]

That dude is badass.  Someone once took a swing at him and dude got bit 8 times before he hit the ground.

[sphetr2]

It is as much a button masher as Soul Caliber.  Bad/inexperienced players mash.  Good players do not mash.

In fact, they are very much the same, but implemented in a different way.

I have to disagree. In some of the levels of ssbm, there is no way you can button mash. Hyrule Temple? Don't think so, it's too big. You have to move much more in smash bros. than soul calibur.

[ChadTower]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

[sphetr2]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

Yea, I can piss on the controller as well. All the same.

Seriously, at first, you may be right. But after 1 or 2 games (which still constitutes beginner) the player should notice that button mashing will get you nowhere.

[pointdablame]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

Yea, I can piss on the controller as well. All the same.

Seriously, at first, you may be right. But after 1 or 2 games (which still constitutes beginner) the player should notice that button mashing will get you nowhere.

you do realize that you are actually AGREEING with Chad... yet arguing with him at the same time... right?

[sphetr2]

you do realize that you are actually AGREEING with Chad... yet arguing with him at the same time... right?

Thus, they cancel out and I am simply acknowledging his existence. 

[Howard_Casto]

I stand corrected then.  BOTH games are horribly akward to play then.  To be honest I made it through ssb without knowing special move one, wrote it off as a kiddie game and it never saw the light of day again.  I'm not a big fan.  Like the dragonball games they make the special moves too easy.  There's no sense of accomplishment involved when all you have to do to throw a fireball is press A.  I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

[ChadTower]

Isn't SSB designed to be a party game?  The levels are more for single player practice than anything else.  "Making it through" is only seeing the weaker side of the game.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

Because complicated directional inputs are not required for ssb it doesn't much matter that the gc controller is layed out horribly for fighters.  When you play something like mortal kombat da on it, however, the limitations of the layout become apparent.  It becomes even more apparent on games like svc2, where you often have to press all three punches, or all three kicks to perform a special move, something that is nearly impossible on the gc layout.  On a standard 4 button layout, however, this is easily done by laying your thumb across two buttons (punch or kick) and pressing the third, which is mapped to a shoulder button.  You never have to re-align your thumb with a standard layout, you just rotate your thumb to cover row 1 or row 2 and press the desired button(s).  There aren't any rows on the gc controller, you have a diagonal row for a and b, which overlaps with a curved row of x and y.  To press x an y at the same time without pressing a you literally have to let go, move your hand up slighty, and carefully lay your thumb across both without hitting a, which is sort of in the way.  Pressing b and y is nearly impossible unless you put a finger in the mix.  Again, doing any of these combos is real easy on a standard layout.  You guys missed the point, hopefully now you get it. 

(please no more defending "game x" comments, i'm trying to get us back on topic)

[sphetr2]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

That's because fireball isn't a special move. Smash attacks are the special moves, and, while the combo is not nearly as complicated, it involves more skill.

Who wants to do a freaking down-down/forward-forward punch for a special move anyway? I can't see how you find harder combos more enjoyable. For me it's just annoying, trying to learn different combos for different games.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

You do realize that the only character that has a projectile attack in SC2 is Link, who was a special unlockable character only available on the gamecube.  It seems obvious you never actually played SC for more then 5 minutes, otherwise you would know that the moves are a lot more complicated then pushing one button and far more complex then doing moves in street fighter or mortal kombat.  I could go into more detail as to why, but thats not what this thread is about.  

ssb is a fighting game that does have a lot of depth, but is also simple enough that you can button mash.  Hows the saying go, easy to learn hard to master.  I'm not going to say it more complicated then SF, MK, or SC, since it obviously is not, but that doesn't mean its not a fighter.  AFAIK, ssb is the only fighter that plays best with the gamecube controller.

(please no more defending "game x" comments, i'm trying to get us back on topic)

Sorry, I had to since you seemed to have little knowledge about SC and was making assumptions about it.  And I agree with you about the controllers though, the PS2 controller is the best one for fighting games, the GC controller is the worst, at least in my opinion.  A friend of mine bought a ps2 controller and an adapter so that he could play SC on his gamecube with the ps2 controller.  I didn't miss your point about controllers at all, but I never like it when people make info up to defend their point.

The gamecube controller, like the Wii controller, is so different from normal controllers that the best games are ones made specifically for it.

[shmokes]

The Gamecube controller isn't intrinsicly bad for fighters.  That's absurd.  It is just bad for fighters that are designed to play well on the Super Nintendo gamepad.  There's no reason at all that a move designed to be performed on a Playstation pad should be performed in the same way on the Gamecube pad, except developer laziness.  Third party fighters suck on the Gamecube, not because the Gamecube controller sucks (it doesn't), but because the Gamecube was not very successful so it only got ports, and the ports weren't handled properly. 

[Crax]

The Gamecube controller isn't intrinsicly bad for fighters.  That's absurd.  It is just bad for fighters that are designed to play well on the Super Nintendo gamepad.  There's no reason at all that a move designed to be performed on a Playstation pad should be performed in the same way on the Gamecube pad, except developer laziness.

I may be misunderstanding you, but having the same move in a game performed differently on different systems would be ridiculous and not doing has nothing to do with a developer being lazy.  If I throw a fireball with a guy on my playstation and go to my friends house to play the same game on his gamecube, it should be the same move.

[Howard_Casto]

Agreed, I don't know what shmokes is smokin, but games that are multi-platform are SUPPOSED to play exactly the same.  That's the whole point of releasing the same title.  If you are going to go mucking about with the moves then you might as well make a new game from the ground up, taking advantage of that particular consoles strengths.  This isn't finacially possible for most developers.  Plus it's just dumb.  Having a game with the same moveset that is forced to use fewer buttons (the only easy way to eliminate the fighter problem would be to just use 4 buttons instead of 6) turns out awful.  I know because they've done it before.  Go try playing mk on the gameboy or gamegear and tell me how it's a good thing to alter movesets based on the controls given.   

I'm not sure what you say that it is only bad for fighters designed around the snes gamepad because  sf, kof, sc, tekken, vf, doa console ports are all based around the 4 button layout.  So, um ALL fighters are designed around the snes layout would be a fair statement.

Some peolple were all excited about the new controls for mka on the wii.  My first thought was "So they've made the special moves so easy that anyone can do them.  That sucks!"

A rather disturbing trend on the wii right now is to re-release old games with wii controller schemes.  This is a bad thing.  I saw a new prince of persia was going to be released and I thought "Sweet!!!!" until I looked at the screnshots.  They are re-releasing the two thrones on the wii.  The two thrones was released in 2005. 

The two things don't seem related but they actually are.  Taking a game designed for one set of controls and retro-fitting it for another set of controls doesn't make a game any better, it usually makes it worse.  So having a gc port's controls modified specifically for the controller is just as dumb an idea as taking a 2 year old game and re-releasing it with wii controls slapped on.  They were both designed to be played on a regular xbox/ps2 arranged pad.  So let us frikkin play them that way!

[ChadTower]

Console games like Soul Caliber 2 are all ports.  Every version.  They're arcade games ported to consoles and thus no matter what console you're on, you're working with a roughly tweaked control scheme.

[MajorLag]

I have to disagree with Howard. If you can't make your game comfortable to play with a certain console's controller, then you shouldn't bother porting it.

Which is what I was getting at with my other statement really. SSB IS a fighting game, but it is not a traditional one because instead of trying to map a control scheme that works well on a completely different layout, the control scheme was tailored to the controller that players would actually be using. If you can't be bothered to do that with your game, then you shouldn't even port it.

Nintendo redesigned the controller in an effort to address the problems that have plagued them since their inception. But some game developers were too stuck in the past to take advantage of it and just wanted to shovelware their latest eye-candied rehash of games that were successful in 1993.

[ChadTower]

SSB isn't a port.  It's a native game.

[AtomSmasher]

A rather disturbing trend on the wii right now is to re-release old games with wii controller schemes.  This is a bad thing.  I saw a new prince of persia was going to be released and I thought "Sweet!!!!" until I looked at the screnshots.  They are re-releasing the two thrones on the wii.  The two thrones was released in 2005. 

The two things don't seem related but they actually are.  Taking a game designed for one set of controls and retro-fitting it for another set of controls doesn't make a game any better, it usually makes it worse.  So having a gc port's controls modified specifically for the controller is just as dumb an idea as taking a 2 year old game and re-releasing it with wii controls slapped on.  They were both designed to be played on a regular xbox/ps2 arranged pad.  So let us frikkin play them that way!

I agree that ports coming to the Wii generally does suck, but if you remember, the DS had the same exact problem when it launched.  The majority of the games in the first 6-12 months for the DS was either ports or minigames.  I think the problem comes from the completely new control scheme, it just takes the developers a while to figure out how exactly to take advantage of it.  Plus its a lot faster and easier to port a game then to make a new one, so publishers are just looking to make a quick buck while theres still few games available for the Wii. 

[Howard_Casto]

Console games like Soul Caliber 2 are all ports.  Every version.  They're arcade games ported to consoles and thus no matter what console you're on, you're working with a roughly tweaked control scheme.

No, not really. 

sf: two rows of 3
tekken: two rows of 2
sc: one row of 4 or two rows of 2, depending upon the cabinet
mka and beyond: released on consoles only

Do you see me mentioning a bunch of straight (or slightly curved) rows? Yes.  Do you see me mentioning a diagonal T shape (the shap of the gc layout)? No. 

You see the snes and genesis revision 2 controllers were specifically designed for fighters in mind as at the time they were literally the only games that used 6 buttons. This isn't speculation either, this is fact, go look up some old interviews from nintendo and sega if you don't believe me. Nintendo made two rows of 4 and shoulder buttons to save space, Sega made two rows of three.  The standard layout used by everyone but nintendo (ironically) today is a direct result of early console manufacturers wanting to port arcade games. 

So to say that they are all rough ports control-wise is silly when two of the consoles from that generation sported a layout designed specifically for fighters and one didn't.

I've honestly never heard so much fanboy-ism fighting this one point I wanted to make.  You can't call an entire genre of games old, wrong or shovelware just because nintendo abandonded it long ago because japaneese school girls (their target audience for the gamecube apparently) found them too complicated to play. 

And majorlag you are agreeing with me actually.  These games suck on the gc because they shouldn't have been ported.  They shouldn't have been ported because the gc controller sucks for them and the only way to fix it would be to radically alter the games, which would also suck.  The gc had horrible third-party support mainly due to the controller weather you guys like it or not. 

I used fighting games as an example but ANY multi-platform game that required you to press combinations of a/b and y/x at the same time were hard to play on the gc and thus very few multi-platform games made it to the gc and when they did, they didn't sell well because the game could be played with better controls on the ps2 or xbox.  That and the smaller disc space killed it.  In all other aspects it could compete with the other two consoles, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these differences were to blame.

I loved my gamecube, but I only own like 8 titles for it and they are all in-house nintendo jobs save bomberman (which I hate but got for free) resident evil 4 and viewtiful joe.  So they are all first party games with the exception of two gamecube exclusive (at the time) titles.  Why didn't I buy any multi-platform games?  Because I have those on my xbox. 

So to recap:

Making an entirely new controller type and thus inventing a new way to play (wiimote)=good thing
Taking an old controller type and screwing around with it (gc controller ps3/prototype controller)=bad thing.

Forcing developers to use less buttons when you don't offer them anything in return is a step backwards, and that's why the gc controller failed.  Imagine if the n64 would have used a 2 button pad and nintendo's response was "we felt that 6 buttons confused the player so we are limiting developers to two buttons and a dpad" you would have thought they were nuts right?  Well that's basically what they did with the gc controller, making the x and y buttons so small and out of the way that they are essentially unuseable as primary buttons and forced to be secondary buttons. 

You can't deny that it's easier to press y on an xbox controller or ps2 controller than on a gc controller.  And by "press" I don't mean press it at your leisure to toggle a visor or map, I mean rapidly tap it and quickly switch to other buttons on the controller, without having to worry about hitting another neighboring button.  And that was my point, why you guys keep bringing up this other crap is beyond me unless it's due to pure fanboy-ism. 

I love nintendo, but I'm more than willing to point out their mistakes.  Anyone that thinks the gc design isn't a mistake is in denial.

[shmokes]

Howard,  there's so much nonsense there I don't know where to begin (aside from the radically changing fighting game moves based on the controller; on reflection, I agree that's probably not a great idea).

For one thing, hardly any games have you press multiple buttons simultaneously.  You're blowing that out of proportion.  And even if games do make you press two buttons simultaneous, the Gamecube is superior than the competitor's gamepads by far.  Pressing A plus any other face button is incredibly easy.  Hell, you can press A+X+Y quite easily with the tip of your thumb alone, and A+B+X are lined up in a perfectly straight line if you wanted to lay your thumb across all three and press them simultaneously.  I'm not saying that any fighter's controls scheme can be easily fit onto a Gamecube pad, but I am saying that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

And to suggest that the controller is the reason Gamecube suffered in North America, rather than its perceived target audience being 12 years old is ridiculous.  To suggest that third parties abandoned Nintendo because of the Gamecube controller, rather than due to Nintendo's strongarm tactics while trying to preserve its lucrative cartridge manufacturing business with the N64 is ridiculous.  In short, to suggest that the Gamecube would have been any greater success had they merely arranged the face buttons on their controller in a traditional diamond pattern is just daft.

You need to go put a Gamecube pad in your hand right now and hold it while rereading your post.  X and Y are "so small and out of the way"?  What are you talking about?  The X and Y buttons are as big or bigger than the buttons on an Xbox or PS.  And everything is easier to reach, too.  My thumb rests constantly over both the A and the Y button, and I have tiny little girl hands.  In order for you thumb to not automatically rest directly over the Y button when holding a Gamecube pad, you would have to keep your thumb unnaturally contorted in an extremely uncomfortable position.  Nobody would do this.  To say that the Y button is out of the way, is like saying the spacebar on your keyboard is out of the way.  It's sitting right under your thumb while in home position.  Additionally, the X button, from there, is just a slight roll of my thumb to the right and the B button is just a slight roll to the left.  The buttons on a Gamecube controller are considerably more accessible and easy to hit than the other systems, whether I'm pressing them at my leisure or in the heat of complicated battle.  Seriously, before you respond to this, go put a controller in your hands (preferrably a Wavebird, since that's all I have to go off of right now, but I think the button layout and dimensions are identical on a standard controller)

And BTW, taking an old controller type and screwing around with it = SNES, Dual Shock 2, Xbox Controller S, Gamecube controller. 
All of these controllers significantly bettered their predecessors.

[versapak]

I hated the GC controller.

I found it to be too small, and the layout sucked.

Seriously... Who the heck has a problem finding buttons on a normal diamond layout? There was nothing innovative about the GC controller, and there was no need what-so-ever for the funky layout it had. It was just different for the sake of being different.

Last gen I found the Logitech wireless precision controller to be the best. It had an excellent size and shape. It suffered from the boneheaded start/back/black/white layout of the Xbox S controller, but of that generation had the best in hand feel.

Of all time as of yet though...

I find the 360 controller to be the perfect controller size, shape, and layout. The only thing I find lacking on it is the D-pad, but it just seems that quality D-pads are a thing of the past, because none of the console makers have had a quality one in years.

[shmokes]

Versapak,

I'm guessing that you have rather large hands.  I had heard a lot of good things about the Logitech Precision controller so that was the one I planned to get when I bought my first wireless Xbox controller.  But then I handled it in the store and just thought it felt too big and unwieldy, much like the original Xbox controller.  Also, FWIW, I think the black and white buttons on the S controller are much better placed than the original two-rows-of-three layout.

Also FWIW, I am a Nintendo fanboy to some extent, but I'm not a nutso fanboy.  My Xbox got about ten times the playtime in the last gen than my Gamecube.  Of the next gen systems I really want a PS3 because I never owned a PS2 so there are a lot of exclusives I missed out on.  I don't think that the Gamecube controller is superior to the others because Microsoft is the suX0r.  I love my Xbox, and in spite of awful analog stick placement and a retarded button naming scheme, I really want a PS3.  That doesn't make me right, of course.  But this ain't, as Howard says, just fanboyism talking.  It's my honest opinion.

[versapak]

Versapak,

I'm guessing that you have rather large hands.  I had heard a lot of good things about the Logitech Precision controller so that was the one I planned to get when I bought my first wireless Xbox controller.  But then I handled it in the store and just thought it felt too big and unwieldy, much like the original Xbox controller.  Also, FWIW, I think the black and white buttons on the S controller are much better placed than the original two-rows-of-three layout.

Also FWIW, I am a Nintendo fanboy to some extent, but I'm not a nutso fanboy.  My Xbox got about ten times the playtime in the last gen than my Gamecube.  Of the next gen systems I really want a PS3 because I never owned a PS2 so there are a lot of exclusives I missed out on.  I don't think that the Gamecube controller is superior to the others because Microsoft is the suX0r.  I love my Xbox, and in spite of awful analog stick placement and a retarded button naming scheme, I really want a PS3.  That doesn't make me right, of course.  But this ain't, as Howard says, just fanboyism talking.  It's my honest opinion.

I never thought of myself as having big hands, but I was always comfortable holding the original behemoth controller for Xbox, so I guess they are definitely less than girly.

I do agree that the black and white button placement on the S was better than the 6 button config of the original, but it still sucked. A problem nicely fixed this generation, and I really do believe that with a better D-pad the 360 controller would be my perfect controller.

Don't get me wrong either. I use hate in a less hostile way then the word probably implies. I found the GC controller to be plenty usable. It just really seemed needlessly different to me. There was not a single game released on cube where it hit me,  "Oh yeah, that is why they chose to make their controller lacking for 90% of the other games released.".

[shmokes]

Speaking of an open letter to Nintendo:

WHERE THE ---fudgesicle--- ARE THE CONTROLLERS???

Everybody understands system shortages during a console launch.  But peripheral shortages?  That's unheard of.  People who bought a Wii in November are still stuck with only one remote.   

[Zero_Hour]

Nintendo online seems to have them in stock pretty regularly (at least I was able to get one from them earlier this week). Everywhere else seems as spotty as the consoles themselves - gotta be there right place, right time.

[somunny]

Speaking of an open letter to Nintendo:

WHERE THE ---fudgesicle--- ARE THE CONTROLLERS???

Everybody understands system shortages during a console launch.  But peripheral shortages?  That's unheard of.  People who bought a Wii in November are still stuck with only one remote.   

Every Target I've been in (Phoenix, Scottsdale) has had them in stock recently.  Need one?

[shmokes]

Actually no, thanks.  My neighbor does.  He wanted to find one before our Superbowl party tomorrow so we could get 4-player going on.

[jelwell]

Stay on target, stay on Target!

I'll throw my two cents in here:

The VC games need to have demos available for them.  One level or timed.  Let me try before I buy.

There's a reason they don't offer demos of the vc games.  For many of the games the time you want to spend with them is so short you'd just download the free demo and never play it again. 

But I do this on my friend's XBOX all the time - play the demos repeatedly and never purchase. Yet Xbox live allows it and still they make money. I guess the VC games aren't of the same high quality. (don't ask me if I'm talking about a 360 or not - I wouldn't even know the difference, and my friend has both)

I don't see me buying any VC games anytime soon anyways though. I have all the classics on my arcade cabinet. And the more recent games are likely to have a sequel with "better" wii/mote integration, soon enough at least.
Joseph Elwell.