An open letter to Nintendo...

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, the honeymoon is over, as much as I love my wii, as much as I think it is already the definative winner of this round's console wars, I have some complaints. 

1.  Why do I have to go through the wii channels interface to play a game?  I mean, if the console is powered down (or in sleep mode) and I insert a disc shouldn't it boot the disc right up?  Ok fair enough, that might be confusing to some people (people who still eat paste) so how about this..... How about when you insert a disc and you aren't in any other channel (or the console isn't on) it automatically takes you inside the games channel with a "press any button to load, home to cancel" message.  Why the message?  We'll get to that next. 

2.  How come I have to use a wiimote to navigate the channels interface?  (At this point some of you are thinking "Why the hell would you want to?"  Well you guys are dumb, so just bear with me).  Games that use the classic controller or gamecube controller (including, oh I dunno every single gamecube game).  Don't really use the wiimote, but you still have to naviagte through the channels to select the game and usually still have that stupid safety screen on bootup, which you need the wiimote to get through.  Coupled with complaint #1 this is a huge error in an otherwise flawless interface. 

3.  No calibration screen for the ir pointer?  Come On!  Granted I know exactly why you left it out.  You built the system for little old ladies and children to and a calibration screen would scare them.  Also the games out (so far) don't need a pixel perfect calibration.  However I know how triangulation works, so I also know if the wii had a very simple (point your remote at the center/top-left/bottom-right area of the screen wizard and the wiimote would have lightgun quality accuracy.  Should it be optional?  Of course, but you should have still included it. 

4.  Do you guys have a battery tree over at Nintendo headquarters?  We sure as hell don't.  Granted, I know that there are some third party recharging stations coming out, but seeing as all they do is add a new face-plate with two contacts to it and a set of rechargeable batteries, couldn't you guys have included that functionality in the first place? Heck, it'll be so simple to do I might even make one myself... with proper resistance you should be able to recharge batteries via the usb port in the back of the wii.  That's why it makes me so mad that you didn't go that extra step for us.

5.  You want me to pay 5 bucks for nintendo baseball?  Did I read that wrong?  Come on guys, if you want us to fork over a few bucks for some real classics (notice I said" a few," which is three... not 5, not 15) we're ok with that, but half of the stuff you have on the VC is... umm playable at best.  Why not throw us a bone and give away some of the crappier titles for free?  Heck how about a "buy 3 get one free" deal?  Anything man, you are robbing the poor stupid masses, who don't know how worthless some of these games are, blind.  I thought you guys were supposed to be all nice and stuff.

6.  Where is Mario?  Christmas?  WTF?  I mean come on guys, you made us wait a whole year for mario sunshine, only to find out that it's a "eh it's ok" game at best.  When you delay Mario on your next system, it makes me a little nervous.  So help me if you screw up Mario this go around I'll hunt down Reggie and strangle him to death with my nunchuck attachment. 

7.  How about a NEW game by Nintendo?  We get it, make a mario, make a zelda, make a metroid, make all of the whored-out nintendo mascot games, make a fortune, call it a day.  It'd be nice though, if you guys would come up with a NEW game for us to play.  And no, wii sports/play/ect games don't count, as they are tech demos and aren't true, linear games anyway.  No, porting ds games onto the wii don't count either.  Mind you all of these games I've mentioned are really good, but it'd be nice to be suprised by a new franchise rather than just waiting until the next round of sequels come out.  Here's the plan....  give Miyamoto a bottle of sake, a pencil and pad and lock him in a closet for a weekend.  The man is so talented that that he's bound to come up with the next uber successful game franchise by then.  If he comes out with another Animal Crossing, Nintendogs, or other "non-traditional" game beat him and put him back in for a few more days.  Those games are interesting, but you don't get 40 hours of gameplay and a good story from them.


Ok, I'm done.  I just needed to post that somewhere to get it off my chest.  I'll now revert to trying to find the magical pixie dust deep inside the wii that make it run. 

[HaRuMaN]

 

Blowhard...

[shmokes]

I'm with you on the story, but you do get 40 hours out of Animal Crossing easy.

I am kinda surprised at the lack of a new franchise early on.  With Gamecube we had Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion right at or near launch if I remember right.  It really kinda bugs me that I have to confirm EVERYTHING I do in the Wii Channels.  For Christ's sake, if I click on the Forecast Channel I want the ---fracking--- Forecast Channel.  I wouldn't have bloody clicked on it if I didn't want to see it.  Why do I have to see an intermediary screen?  Why do I have to confirm my choice every ---smurfing--- time?  Is it possible that a person might accidentally click on the wrong thing?  Sure, but it's going to happen a helluva lot less than choosing the right thing.  It ain't going to kill a person to say, "Whoops . . . meant to click News but slipped up and got the Mii Channel instead.  I guess I'll just exit the Mii Channel and try again."  And it's going to happen maybe once a month anyway, so who cares?  Just take me to the channel I click on and be done with it.  Can you imagine if your TV's channel interface was so non-committal?  If, every time you selected a new channel it brought you to a bloody NBC or HBO title screen saying, "Are you sure you want to enter this channel?"  Retarded.

[versapak]

I like that a game doesn't auto launch when I place it in (it should be an option in settings though), but yeah, I do HATE that I have to confirm my selection after clicking on a channel.

Also...


I too hate the fact that you can't navigate the channels screen with other control options. Why the heck do I have to turn on a freakin wiimote, wasting my batteries, just to start a gamecube game that will not even be played with it.




 

[ChadTower]

Luigi's Mansion is awesome... one of the few games in recent memory I bought new and really enjoyed.  I can't believe they didn't expand that into subsequent games.  That game is a lot of fun, cool graphics, and the controls were complex enough to be versatile but without being too heavy to master for the nonmotivated old school gamer like me.

[versapak]

Luigi's Mansion is awesome... one of the few games in recent memory I bought new and really enjoyed.  I can't believe they didn't expand that into subsequent games.  That game is a lot of fun, cool graphics, and the controls were complex enough to be versatile but without being too heavy to master for the nonmotivated old school gamer like me.

Not to mention how incredibly perfect that gameplay would be for the wiimote.

[shmokes]

Don't mention Wiimotes around Chad.  He's afraid of them.   

[ChadTower]

I'm mostly afraid of the price to time of use ratio I'd get out of it, actually.

[lcddream]

granted it should have been a release title nintendi is working on a new game

http://wii.ign.com/articles/706/706715p1.html

[Howard_Casto]

I sorta liked Luigi's mansion as well, but I don't think it sold very well, which is why it never had a sequel.  That and poor old Luigi is the Daffy Duck of the nintendo world... all of the work, none of the credit.

versapak, speaking of wasting batteries, why in the world did they design the channels so that they rumble when you move over them?  Yeah it's a cool little touch, but that has to eat up almost as much juice as the ir camera.  You can turn rumble off in the home menu, but then you have to turn it back on later.  It should be a per-application setting.  

Another gamecube annoyance I've noticed is that that wiimote you have to use to start the game can't be used to stop it.  No home menu inside gamecube games.  It's not a major complaint but it seems silly to be required to have a wiimote nearby to start it up and then not be able to get out.


How come you can't send game saves, video clips and mp3's via email too? If they had a closed memory format I could see it as it'd be a security flaw (hackers could write exploits to write homebrew) but since the wii uses sd memory to get those things on it anyway, that security hole already exists.  


Not having a video/audio channel kinda blows as well.  I mean it can play those files via the photo channel, so why not give us a proper player channel for them? It'd take a nintendo developer a grand total of 15 minutes to write one.  

[ChadTower]

That was effed up.  I click the link, it gives the byline:

E3 2006: Project H.A.M.M.E.R. Details Nailed Down
Nintendo offers further details on the upcoming game for Wii.

And the image right below that is a half naked chick getting sliced open while the rest of it loads.  It's only a few seconds later you can see it's an unrelated ad for Saw III and not game footage or images.

[Howard_Casto]

granted it should have been a release title nintendi is working on a new game

http://wii.ign.com/articles/706/706715p1.html

Are you sure that this isn't a thrid-party game?  Looks very adult for nintendo (not that it would be a bad thing). 

Chad there's a small ad in the article but that's it.  Pics and vids are at the bottom.  Maybe its your browser?  I'm running ie7.

[ChadTower]

I'm running FireFox 2.0.  They are probably loading in a different order.

[MajorLag]

In regards to number 6: Waiting sucks, but remember what Miyamoto says: "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever". Since this is they guy who single handedly brought the market back after the crash and gave us OoT and Mario 64, I'm inclined to trust his judgment.

[ChadTower]

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever".

The first part is so not always true that the statement itself is never true.

[somunny]

I'll throw my two cents in here:

The VC games need to have demos available for them.  One level or timed.  Let me try before I buy.

[ChadTower]

A VC premarital snog.

[leapinlew]

Good feedback Howard.

[Howard_Casto]

I'll throw my two cents in here:

The VC games need to have demos available for them.  One level or timed.  Let me try before I buy.

There's a reason they don't offer demos of the vc games.  For many of the games the time you want to spend with them is so short you'd just download the free demo and never play it again. 

[Tahnok]

Personally, I love the rumble when moving over buttons. I think it gives good feedback when positioning the remote. You can 'feel' your way around the menus and keyboard, just like a real keyboard (although a USB keyboard update would be even better).

[lcddream]

granted it should have been a release title nintendi is working on a new game

http://wii.ign.com/articles/706/706715p1.html

Are you sure that this isn't a thrid-party game?  Looks very adult for nintendo (not that it would be a bad thing).

yep i'm sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_H.A.M.M.E.R.

[Glaine]

ok I usually disagree with Howards opinions on things, but I think his article is 100% spot on here. Some of that stuff I laughed pretty good on, like the battery mention. I've thought Nintendo signed a contract with a battery vendor ever since the rumble pack came out for the 64 and required batteries for no good reason at all (I bought a 3rd party rumble that didn't require batteries and it worked as good or better). I can't really see a flaw in your logic on this one.

[ChadTower]

The original rumble packs needed batteries for a very valid reason.  Controllers at that point were still mostly passive devices - they didn't have a power line to feed a secondary device.

[Howard_Casto]

The original rumble packs needed batteries for a very valid reason.  Controllers at that point were still mostly passive devices - they didn't have a power line to feed a secondary device.

Yeah, those third party rumble packs really put a strain on the n64's puny 3.3v power line.  The fact that they didn't fry up n64's on a daily basis is a testament to how well nintendo builds their products.  The gamecube, on the other hand, had a dedicated 5 volt line just for rumble, and even used a smaller motor, which is why it didn't require batteries. 

[ChadTower]

Having the motor inside the controller, rather than just weirdly hanging off the back, definitely works better.  Smaller motor, less current needed, more directly in the hand where you feel it.  Kind of like swapping out a subwoofer across the room with a transducer in your chair.

[bleemus]

2.  How come I have to use a wiimote to navigate the channels interface?  (At this point some of you are thinking "Why the hell would you want to?"  Well you guys are dumb, so just bear with me).  Games that use the classic controller or gamecube controller (including, oh I dunno every single gamecube game).  Don't really use the wiimote, but you still have to naviagte through the channels to select the game and usually still have that stupid safety screen on bootup, which you need the wiimote to get through.  Coupled with complaint #1 this is a huge error in an otherwise flawless interface. 

Know that you can use the classic controller to move around the pointer.  I haven't tried the GameCube analog sticks, but I do know that the classic controller right analog stick does move around the finger.  I actually like the classic controller better for UI movements, don't have to make my arm tired by pointing.

That only partially solves the problem, though, you still have a Wiimote in the mix; Que Sera, Sera.

[Glaine]

Having the motor inside the controller, rather than just weirdly hanging off the back, definitely works better.  Smaller motor, less current needed, more directly in the hand where you feel it.  Kind of like swapping out a subwoofer across the room with a transducer in your chair.

Indeed. The PS2 controllers IMO have the best rumble feeling, good and strong, in the core of the controller. N64 was ok but not as good. Dreamcast is probably the worst, simply because the pack weighed so much it was a constant reminder that it was there.

[Howard_Casto]

Actually the xbox controller had the best rumble feature and it's sorta non-debateable because it doesn't work like the others.  It had two motors of opposing torque and size that were combined to allow true pc-like force feedback.  The other rumblers on the market pretty much just have an on/off switch.  Of course not many games used it properly so many people didn't know that, but if you get one of the first party games like munch's oddesy it really shows. 

[pointdablame]

slightly off topic, but Munch's Oddysee wasn't first party was it?  I don't recall Oddworld Inhabitants ever being sold to Microsoft???

[versapak]

slightly off topic, but Munch's Oddysee wasn't first party was it?  I don't recall Oddworld Inhabitants ever being sold to Microsoft???

Nope, it was just published by MS.

[Howard_Casto]

At the time, the two companies had a partnership.  I miss-spoke anyway, what I meant was a launch title.  Most of the xbox games after the launch were multi-platform games and thus they used a suckier ps2 rumble scheme. 

[hypernova]

I propose an addition.

You've always made outstanding controllers that were insanely rugged.  I had an N64 for around 8 years before selling it and the controllers with it.  The official Nintendo branded controllers NEVER went bad.  Not even the analog sticks.  Even after all those years, I STILL had the original sticks in those things, tight as they could be.

Now go to the Cube's controllers.  My sticks are wearing themselves out within a year.  And the ironic thing is I play LESS than I did years ago.  I'll tell you what it is.  That cheap plastic you've got in there.  Stop using that crap.
Even the shoulder buttons are acting a bit fruity.  You'll push them in, and in the middle of a drift in MK:DD, the drift will release, while you're still holding the button.  I'm not quite sure what the heck is going on there.  All my controllers are exhibiting that problem at random times.  These things just aren't made to last.

Haven't gotten a Wii yet, but I sure hope durability when it comes to the sticks and buttons has improved.

[ChadTower]

I had an N64 for around 8 years before selling it and the controllers with it.  The official Nintendo branded controllers NEVER went bad.  Not even the analog sticks.  Even after all those years, I STILL had the original sticks in those things, tight as they could be.

N64 sticks were notorious for wearing out.  I've had probably 50-75 of them from my yard sale travels/console work... most of them, by the time the consoles were sold, had almost useless analog sticks.  They are not repairable and use a very proprietary set of parts made of thin plastic.  The N64 analog sticks may have worked well but were not built to last.

[Tahnok]

I had an N64 for around 8 years before selling it and the controllers with it.  The official Nintendo branded controllers NEVER went bad.  Not even the analog sticks.  Even after all those years, I STILL had the original sticks in those things, tight as they could be.

N64 sticks were notorious for wearing out.  I've had probably 50-75 of them from my yard sale travels/console work... most of them, by the time the consoles were sold, had almost useless analog sticks.  They are not repairable and use a very proprietary set of parts made of thin plastic.  The N64 analog sticks may have worked well but were not built to last.

Definitely. Once the powder starts showing up around the analog stick, you know your controller is on the way out. Granted though, I think all my N64 controllers have powder, but they are still playable. They just keep getting rougher and less centered.

[ChadTower]

They become less precise, too.  The powder is ground off plastic from the two sets of rails that both hold the stick to center and read its position.  As the rails grind down, they don't hold it as fast, and they also can't read its position as well.  It's slop and a lessening of precision.

[Howard_Casto]

I wish nintendo would go ahead and switch over to a "real" analog stick.  Mind you the one's on the wii devices are a vast improvement, but compared, to say, an xbox stick they are still kinda cheap.

[ChadTower]

Nintendo isn't working on the "sell the hardware for a huge loss leader" model like Microsoft is...

[Howard_Casto]

Nintendo makes about 50 bucks per console... it's the only console that doesn't lose money.  They could have afforded to give us the 3 dollar sticks instead of the 1 dollar ones.  Besides, analog sticks don't come with the wii, just the accessories, which are virtually pure profit for them. 

The wiimote had a lot of r and d costs, but the classic controller and nunchuck were virtually free in r&d terms because the accelerometers in the nunchuck are the same ones in the wiimote, and the sticks are just standard gamecube sticks with a new rubberized top. 

[versapak]

Nintendo makes about 50 bucks per console... it's the only console that doesn't lose money.  They could have afforded to give us the 3 dollar sticks instead of the 1 dollar ones.  Besides, analog sticks don't come with the wii, just the accessories, which are virtually pure profit for them. 

The wiimote had a lot of r and d costs, but the classic controller and nunchuck were virtually free in r&d terms because the accelerometers in the nunchuck are the same ones in the wiimote, and the sticks are just standard gamecube sticks with a new rubberized top. 

The 360 doesn't lose money any more either.

Though that isn't really your point.

Yeah, Nintendo could easily put a little more quality into their analog sticks, and still be making plenty of money.

[pointdablame]

The 360 doesn't lose money any more either.

Do you have a link for that?  That's interesting.

[hypernova]

I had an N64 for around 8 years before selling it and the controllers with it.  The official Nintendo branded controllers NEVER went bad.  Not even the analog sticks.  Even after all those years, I STILL had the original sticks in those things, tight as they could be.

N64 sticks were notorious for wearing out.  I've had probably 50-75 of them from my yard sale travels/console work... most of them, by the time the consoles were sold, had almost useless analog sticks.  They are not repairable and use a very proprietary set of parts made of thin plastic.  The N64 analog sticks may have worked well but were not built to last.

Definitely. Once the powder starts showing up around the analog stick, you know your controller is on the way out. Granted though, I think all my N64 controllers have powder, but they are still playable. They just keep getting rougher and less centered.

I occasionally found very thin layers of powder.  All I did was clean it off.  Every once in awhile, I opened it all up, including the assembly holding the stick parts together, cleaned it out, and put it back together.  My sticks held up perfectly their entire lives.  I must've been the exception.

[ChadTower]

You do know that the powder is ground off bits of the stick assembly, right?  The reason the powder is there is because the two sets of perpendicular rails that read the stick's position is being ground down by the stick itself.  The presence of that powder is itself evidence that your sticks were not holding up perfectly.

[versapak]

The 360 doesn't lose money any more either.

Do you have a link for that?  That's interesting.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155499



I know I have seen it several other places as well, but my internet is running like a sinking rock, so I will just have to settle for that one link. I dunno if there has been any official statement from MS on the subject, and the linked estimate seems to only apply to the Premium 360.

[ark_ader]

Reading all this about the wii makes me glad I didn't buy one. 

[versapak]

Reading all this about the wii makes me glad I didn't buy one. 

Huh?


If that is what you are getting from the people that own one, then chances are you aren't understanding much of what is said.


The gripes in this thread are so minor to the overall enjoyment of the Wii that to take any kind of stance like the one you state is just ridiculous.

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, the honeymoon is over, as much as I love my wii, as much as I think it is already the definative winner of this round's console wars, I have some complaints. 

What he said.... did you miss that line or something there skippy?

[sphetr2]

I wish the Wii's nunchuk, as well as the GC controller, didn't have that stupid outline around the analog sticks. I don't get it. Why? 

[shmokes]

Are you talking about the octagon shape?  God, I've always loved that.  It makes it much easier to hit the cardinal directions (and diagonals) exactly, while still giving full analog control.  I've often wished for the same when playing the Xbox.

[sphetr2]

Are you talking about the octagon shape?  God, I've always loved that.  It makes it much easier to hit the cardinal directions (and diagonals) exactly, while still giving full analog control.  I've often wished for the same when playing the Xbox.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. I guess you're right about that- on games where you really need to get your directions right (like SSBM, etc.) it is helpful. But I don't like it on the nunchuk.

[Glaine]

Actually the xbox controller had the best rumble feature and it's sorta non-debateable

I wouldn't know because the controller looks like booty. O yeah and what does that huge bubble do in the middle there? Lets see if it is a big ole button. Nope. Maybe it is a screen for showing you a map of the level (like in Crystal Chronicles). Nope. O yeah, it is a huge waste of space and an eyesore and I hate it.

Plus, as Maddox says on his old 2003 page, it isn't really a bonus that the controller is as big as a dreamcast (taken from here http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=xbox_suckit).

[shmokes]

Come now . . . the Xbox hasn't used that controller in years.  That controller hasn't even been available as an option.  The controler S has been standard since shortly after the initial launch and it isn't nearly as big as the original.  Even still, I use the MadCatz Microcons.  They are some of my favorite controllers ever made for any system, beaten out only by the Gamecube controller.  But, then, I have little girl hands.

[ChadTower]

I like smaller controllers too.  I use the smaller MadCatz Cube controllers and have a couple smaller Xbox controllers I prefer (I forget who made them but they have Darth Vader on them and are full of red LEDs).

[Glaine]

Well then I man up to being miss-informed. I haven't paid them much attention so if those aren't in use anymore, my bad. You gotta admit they looked nasty though.

[AtomSmasher]

Actually the xbox controller had the best rumble feature and it's sorta non-debateable

I wouldn't know because the controller looks like booty. O yeah and what does that huge bubble do in the middle there? Lets see if it is a big ole button. Nope. Maybe it is a screen for showing you a map of the level (like in Crystal Chronicles). Nope. O yeah, it is a huge waste of space and an eyesore and I hate it.

Plus, as Maddox says on his old 2003 page, it isn't really a bonus that the controller is as big as a dreamcast (taken from here http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=xbox_suckit).

How exactly does the controller looking like a "booty" have anything to do with how good the rumble feature is?  Does the bubble in the middle reduce the amount of rumble?  I don't see how any of that is relevant.

[shmokes]

I think that controller is just so ridiculous it's hard not to jump on the slightest opportunity to ridicule it.

[AtomSmasher]

I think that controller is just so ridiculous it's hard not to jump on the slightest opportunity to ridicule it.

Hehe, true.

[ark_ader]

Ok, the honeymoon is over, as much as I love my wii, as much as I think it is already the definative winner of this round's console wars, I have some complaints. 

What he said.... did you miss that line or something there skippy?

No.  I have read about issues from other boards and from friends who have had the wii and got rid of it pretty quickly.  Your comments is just icing on the cake. 

Before the wii came out I was pretty excited about it, but was let down after it came out.  I bought a PSP recently and have enjoyed that immensely.  My money will go to the PS3, especially now that it can run OS X.

Howard your comments on this board, I take with great respect and gratitude.  As your keen eye on these matters is always accurate.  Thank you. 

[ChadTower]

Howard your comments on this board, I take with great respect and gratitude.  As your keen eye on these matters is always accurate.  Thank you. 

Now we know he's on the drugs.

[shmokes]

No.  I have read about issues from other boards and from friends who have had the wii and got rid of it pretty quickly.  Your comments is just icing on the cake. 

Before the wii came out I was pretty excited about it, but was let down after it came out.  I bought a PSP recently and have enjoyed that immensely.  My money will go to the PS3, especially now that it can run OS X.

Howard your comments on this board, I take with great respect and gratitude.  As your keen eye on these matters is always accurate.  Thank you. 

What?  Get the ---fudgesicle--- out of here.  You don't have a single friend, let alone plural that managed to get their hands on a Wii and then "got rid of it pretty quickly".  The only way that happened is if you're talking about someone who got the Wii to make some money on Ebay in the first place.  What a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Anybody who doesn't live under a rock knows that the reception of the Wii has been near universally positive.  You may have a friend who got a Wii and didn't like it, but the odds are just too low that you have "friends" in this position.  Hell the odds aren't even that high that you have multiple friends who even managed to acquire one, considering their unavailability up to this point, let alone multiple friends who got them and thought they were crap.

Also, why in the name of god would  you give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about running OS X on a PS3?  Presumeably you'd have to run it through some kind of virtualization software like VMware, since it's built for the X86 architecture, so it would run like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  But even if you got somewhat decent performance out of it, what would be the point?  I mean, I don't buy into the whole "Sony's already lost the Next Gen battle" line.  I think it's way too early to say that, but the way you're going on makes it clear that you are the worst kind of fanboy.

[ark_ader]

No.  I have read about issues from other boards and from friends who have had the wii and got rid of it pretty quickly.  Your comments is just icing on the cake. 

Before the wii came out I was pretty excited about it, but was let down after it came out.  I bought a PSP recently and have enjoyed that immensely.  My money will go to the PS3, especially now that it can run OS X.

Howard your comments on this board, I take with great respect and gratitude.  As your keen eye on these matters is always accurate.  Thank you. 

What?  Get the ---fudgesicle--- out of here.  You don't have a single friend, let alone plural that managed to get their hands on a Wii and then "got rid of it pretty quickly".  The only way that happened is if you're talking about someone who got the Wii to make some money on Ebay in the first place.  What a load of ---Cleveland steamer---.  Anybody who doesn't live under a rock knows that the reception of the Wii has been near universally positive.  You may have a friend who got a Wii and didn't like it, but the odds are just too low that you have "friends" in this position.  Hell the odds aren't even that high that you have multiple friends who even managed to acquire one, considering their unavailability up to this point, let alone multiple friends who got them and thought they were crap.

Also, why in the name of god would  you give a ---Cleveland steamer--- about running OS X on a PS3?  Presumeably you'd have to run it through some kind of virtualization software like VMware, since it's built for the X86 architecture, so it would run like ---Cleveland steamer---.  But even if you got somewhat decent performance out of it, what would be the point?  I mean, I don't buy into the whole "Sony's already lost the Next Gen battle" line.  I think it's way too early to say that, but the way you're going on makes it clear that you are the worst kind of fanboy.

Have you researched your information before you posted that? 

Sorry that my comments have offended you.  I'll buy a wii for my nephew, for his birthday.  Does that make you feel better?   

[somunny]

I think Howard will lose sleep if he knew he was the cause of one person *not* buying a Wii.  Seriously.

[Zero_Hour]

My money will go to the PS3, especially now that it can run OS X.

I hope that's not a primary reason you are buying a PS3, because the chances of it happening are only slightly greater than none at all. If it does happen, I would doubt that it is anything but a hack, and at that point I'd have to consider it a novelty to run and just go back to using Linux on the box. And yes I have researched the topic. Still, if you see any press releases from Apple stating that they will be offering a release for the PS3, by all means post the link.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I can understand completely why you'd want to run os x on a ps3.  I mean, afterall, there aren't any games to play on it, so you might as well get your $600 worth. 

[hypernova]

You do know that the powder is ground off bits of the stick assembly, right?  The reason the powder is there is because the two sets of perpendicular rails that read the stick's position is being ground down by the stick itself.  The presence of that powder is itself evidence that your sticks were not holding up perfectly.

*Sigh*...Yes.  The point is, they were, after 8 years of steady use, still working perfectly.  As with anything, they wouldn't last forever.

Well I can understand completely why you'd want to run os x on a ps3.  I mean, afterall, there aren't any games to play on it, so you might as well get your $600 worth. 

I've read they're contemplating a price drop on their next fiscal year, which I assume is soon.

And I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Nintendo are waiting in anticipation, only to drop their prices in response.  At least, that's my hope.  Bury the PS3.

[Glaine]

Actually the xbox controller had the best rumble feature and it's sorta non-debateable

I wouldn't know because the controller looks like booty. O yeah and what does that huge bubble do in the middle there? Lets see if it is a big ole button. Nope. Maybe it is a screen for showing you a map of the level (like in Crystal Chronicles). Nope. O yeah, it is a huge waste of space and an eyesore and I hate it.

Plus, as Maddox says on his old 2003 page, it isn't really a bonus that the controller is as big as a dreamcast (taken from here http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=xbox_suckit).

How exactly does the controller looking like a "booty" have anything to do with how good the rumble feature is?  Does the bubble in the middle reduce the amount of rumble?  I don't see how any of that is relevant.

It is relevent because I don't play with booty looking controllers. The fact that it rumbles well does not redeem the controller in my eyes because at that point the look and feel of that behemoth was a more pressing issue. My point is that gaming is a package deal, needing good controls (but not too many of them like GameCube pads), sleek shape, not needlessly large. And then after those things, extras like LED displays, rumble, memory cards, etc.

We need a smiley with a flamethrower now cuz everyone will assume this is a flame war. 

[ChadTower]

I wouldn't know because the controller looks like booty.

How exactly does the controller looking like a "booty"? 

It is relevent because I don't play with booty looking.

[shmokes]

(but not too many of them like GameCube pads)

Are you saying the GameCube had too many controls?  The Gamecube controller has fewer buttons than either the Xbox or the PS2.  Am I reading your post right?

PS2: Two analog sticks, 6 face buttons, D-Pad (4 buttons), 4 shoulder buttons = 14 buttons + 2 sticks

Xbox: Two analog sticks, 8 face buttons, D-Pad (4 buttons), 2 shoulder buttons = 14 buttons + 2 sticks

Gamecube: Two analog sticks, 5 face buttons, D-Pad (4 buttons), three shoulder buttons = 12 buttons + 2 sticks

[ChadTower]

The Xbox is the only one that you can press the sticks, yes?

[Howard_Casto]

No you could on the ps2 as well. 

"Stick clicking" should be outlawed though.  You use tiny movements to line things up with the stick only to have to press down on it, which of course throws the direction off again. 

Btw, I have no clue how this became a debate about controllers when I was talking about the rumble feature. 

For the record the xbox classic (not s) controller is STILL better than the playstation controller imho because sony's controllers are too tiny.  I don't have large hands by any means, but when I have a sony controller in my hand I feel like I'm going to break it. Plus the angle on the palm rest pads is too extreme, making it akward to hold.  And even if you don't agree about the classic, there is no denying that the s controller is prefectly playable and on a comparable level with the sony controllers, making the argument irrelevant. 

It's also hard to make a point of sony's controllers having a superior design when they basically copied the snes design (but ruined it by putting those horrible palm pads on it) 15+ years ago.  They've only tried to change it once at last years e3 and the design they came up with was so bad they were almost laughed off the stage. 

Since we've went down that road... I guess what I'm saying is that sony's controllers aren't designed better, they just aren't designed at all.  People don't have any issue with them because they are very generic.  Just like a man in a plain grey suit doesn't offend anyone, but he isn't very interesting either. 

[Glaine]

You're right, stick clicking is lame. I'm sure they think it is a brilliant idea too.

I don't even like the analog controls on the PS2 controller, but it is like you said - I like it because it feels like a SNES pad, which I've always liked. I'm not even crazy for sholder buttons on some games, like some of you can understand with your control panel aimed at the classics - sometimes very few good controls is wonderful. And even when it is ok to have a lot, keep it clean. PS controlls are very very plain, but everything is easy to reach. I suppose new model XBox is too.

And theres my real issue with GameCube, I have trouble getting to everything.
I knew someone would say something if I mentioned the GameCube controller, I know there aren't many controlls on there - but it feels like it to me. For some reason, the placement of everything feels really awkward, where the analog trigger is sticking out sideways from another trigger and theres some other trigger over under the other side and the sticks that are just out of reach when I need them...I don't like it. Maybe I would if I had a lot of time to spend learning it.

[shmokes]

Obviously just a matter of personal preference, but it seems to me that Nintendo is the only company of the three to try to rectify your complaint.  They have four face buttons, similar to the Playstation, but they made them different shapes and sizes (and colors) so that they can be instantly identified by touch, making them much less confusing in my opinion, not to mention that this is the stated reason for designing them this way.  If you just set your finger on a random button on the PS controller or a button other than black and white on the Xbox controller you would have no way of knowing what button it is.

With only two triggers that your fingers forefingers constantly rest on it's impossible to confuse them, unlike the shoulder buttons of the PS and PS2, and the Z button (right shoulder button -- there is no left shoulder button) is shaped so differently, and is just a button rather than an analog trigger, not to mention that it is placed in such a way that it is incredibly awkward to press , that you could never mistakenly press it when you meant to press the right trigger. 

Everything about the Gamecube controller was designed to make it less confusing, because Miyamoto felt that controllers were becoming too complex.  Plus, they are the most comfortable, ergonomic controllers ever made (that us, until the Wii was released, and the Xbox360 controllers might give them a run for their money in the comfort department).

[Howard_Casto]

While I totally agree that the gamecube controller was a valliant attempt to improve upon the 4 button design, it was a miserable failure.  You see first party nintendo titles are designed to use as few buttons as possible, seldom having to press multiple buttons at the same time.  For that, the gamecube controller worked well.  Unfortunately all thrid party games, particularly games that were ported to multiple consoles don't work this way.  Fighters are particularly hard to play on the cube because you can't press all 4 buttons at once, which is often required.  If I were to pin-point the singular fault that lead to the gc's less than successful run, it'd be the controllers. 

BUT they were trying something new, which is good.  It was a learning process.  They learned that changing the button shape doesn't really help much, you simply need to have less buttons.  Their constant experimentation eventually led to the wiimote.  You'll note though that the classic controller, which they expected to be useful for third-party ports, is basically a snes controller with a few analog sticks on it.  For traditional 2d gaming the old 4 button layout can't be beat. 

[MajorLag]

Can you really say that it was Nintendo's failure though? Nintendo did great with the GC controller. They even had a blockbuster fighting game that used it very well. Seems to me like the failure was with the third parties. They smiply couldn't break out of their old ways.

[ChadTower]

They should put braille on the buttons.  That way we can tell immediately what button it is no matter what the shape.   

[Howard_Casto]

Can you really say that it was Nintendo's failure though? Nintendo did great with the GC controller. They even had a blockbuster fighting game that used it very well. Seems to me like the failure was with the third parties. They smiply couldn't break out of their old ways.

Well yes I can.  That blockbuster fighter you are mentioning (soul caliber II) played horribly on the gamecube because of the akward controller.  Playing it on the gc vs playing it on the xbox or ps2 was like night and day.  Nintendo doesn't make fighting games, so they don't have to worry about it (and no, smash bros is not a fighting game) but it doesn't mean that third parties who made fighting games missed the ball simply because the gc controller was only designed with one type of game (3d adventure) in mind. 

[ChadTower]

Maybe he meant one of the Smash Bros games?

[shmokes]

Yeah . . . he's certainly talking about SSB: Melee. 

[Howard_Casto]

As I said, smash bros is not a fighting game, regardless of what he meant.  It's a fighting game like mario kart is a racing sim.  Don't get me wrong, it's fun and all (sort of) but when you simply mash buttons to perform special moves, even the most akward of controllers would have worked.

[ChadTower]

It is as much a button masher as Soul Caliber.  Bad/inexperienced players mash.  Good players do not mash.

In fact, they are very much the same, but implemented in a different way.

[shmokes]

even the most akward of controllers would have worked.

You are, presumably, referring to this: 

[ChadTower]

That dude is badass.  Someone once took a swing at him and dude got bit 8 times before he hit the ground.

[sphetr2]

It is as much a button masher as Soul Caliber.  Bad/inexperienced players mash.  Good players do not mash.

In fact, they are very much the same, but implemented in a different way.

I have to disagree. In some of the levels of ssbm, there is no way you can button mash. Hyrule Temple? Don't think so, it's too big. You have to move much more in smash bros. than soul calibur.

[ChadTower]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

[sphetr2]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

Yea, I can piss on the controller as well. All the same.

Seriously, at first, you may be right. But after 1 or 2 games (which still constitutes beginner) the player should notice that button mashing will get you nowhere.

[pointdablame]

Sure you can... you won't win, but you can do it.

Yea, I can piss on the controller as well. All the same.

Seriously, at first, you may be right. But after 1 or 2 games (which still constitutes beginner) the player should notice that button mashing will get you nowhere.

you do realize that you are actually AGREEING with Chad... yet arguing with him at the same time... right?

[sphetr2]

you do realize that you are actually AGREEING with Chad... yet arguing with him at the same time... right?

Thus, they cancel out and I am simply acknowledging his existence. 

[Howard_Casto]

I stand corrected then.  BOTH games are horribly akward to play then.  To be honest I made it through ssb without knowing special move one, wrote it off as a kiddie game and it never saw the light of day again.  I'm not a big fan.  Like the dragonball games they make the special moves too easy.  There's no sense of accomplishment involved when all you have to do to throw a fireball is press A.  I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

[ChadTower]

Isn't SSB designed to be a party game?  The levels are more for single player practice than anything else.  "Making it through" is only seeing the weaker side of the game.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

Because complicated directional inputs are not required for ssb it doesn't much matter that the gc controller is layed out horribly for fighters.  When you play something like mortal kombat da on it, however, the limitations of the layout become apparent.  It becomes even more apparent on games like svc2, where you often have to press all three punches, or all three kicks to perform a special move, something that is nearly impossible on the gc layout.  On a standard 4 button layout, however, this is easily done by laying your thumb across two buttons (punch or kick) and pressing the third, which is mapped to a shoulder button.  You never have to re-align your thumb with a standard layout, you just rotate your thumb to cover row 1 or row 2 and press the desired button(s).  There aren't any rows on the gc controller, you have a diagonal row for a and b, which overlaps with a curved row of x and y.  To press x an y at the same time without pressing a you literally have to let go, move your hand up slighty, and carefully lay your thumb across both without hitting a, which is sort of in the way.  Pressing b and y is nearly impossible unless you put a finger in the mix.  Again, doing any of these combos is real easy on a standard layout.  You guys missed the point, hopefully now you get it. 

(please no more defending "game x" comments, i'm trying to get us back on topic)

[sphetr2]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

That's because fireball isn't a special move. Smash attacks are the special moves, and, while the combo is not nearly as complicated, it involves more skill.

Who wants to do a freaking down-down/forward-forward punch for a special move anyway? I can't see how you find harder combos more enjoyable. For me it's just annoying, trying to learn different combos for different games.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm honestly not a big fan of soul caliber either as it's also a button masher, but I do adknowledge that it's a popular franchise. 

As mentioned earlier, its only a button masher to bad/inexperienced players, which is true for pretty much every fighting game there is.

Absolutely, positively not true. 

How about an example:

To perform a fireball in sf2 you press down-down/forward-forward punch. 
To fire an arrow for link in sc2 you press Y.
Similarly in ssb you press a single button for a projectile attack. 

Any game that allows you to do special moves with a single button press is a button masher. 

You do realize that the only character that has a projectile attack in SC2 is Link, who was a special unlockable character only available on the gamecube.  It seems obvious you never actually played SC for more then 5 minutes, otherwise you would know that the moves are a lot more complicated then pushing one button and far more complex then doing moves in street fighter or mortal kombat.  I could go into more detail as to why, but thats not what this thread is about.  

ssb is a fighting game that does have a lot of depth, but is also simple enough that you can button mash.  Hows the saying go, easy to learn hard to master.  I'm not going to say it more complicated then SF, MK, or SC, since it obviously is not, but that doesn't mean its not a fighter.  AFAIK, ssb is the only fighter that plays best with the gamecube controller.

(please no more defending "game x" comments, i'm trying to get us back on topic)

Sorry, I had to since you seemed to have little knowledge about SC and was making assumptions about it.  And I agree with you about the controllers though, the PS2 controller is the best one for fighting games, the GC controller is the worst, at least in my opinion.  A friend of mine bought a ps2 controller and an adapter so that he could play SC on his gamecube with the ps2 controller.  I didn't miss your point about controllers at all, but I never like it when people make info up to defend their point.

The gamecube controller, like the Wii controller, is so different from normal controllers that the best games are ones made specifically for it.

[shmokes]

The Gamecube controller isn't intrinsicly bad for fighters.  That's absurd.  It is just bad for fighters that are designed to play well on the Super Nintendo gamepad.  There's no reason at all that a move designed to be performed on a Playstation pad should be performed in the same way on the Gamecube pad, except developer laziness.  Third party fighters suck on the Gamecube, not because the Gamecube controller sucks (it doesn't), but because the Gamecube was not very successful so it only got ports, and the ports weren't handled properly. 

[Crax]

The Gamecube controller isn't intrinsicly bad for fighters.  That's absurd.  It is just bad for fighters that are designed to play well on the Super Nintendo gamepad.  There's no reason at all that a move designed to be performed on a Playstation pad should be performed in the same way on the Gamecube pad, except developer laziness.

I may be misunderstanding you, but having the same move in a game performed differently on different systems would be ridiculous and not doing has nothing to do with a developer being lazy.  If I throw a fireball with a guy on my playstation and go to my friends house to play the same game on his gamecube, it should be the same move.

[Howard_Casto]

Agreed, I don't know what shmokes is smokin, but games that are multi-platform are SUPPOSED to play exactly the same.  That's the whole point of releasing the same title.  If you are going to go mucking about with the moves then you might as well make a new game from the ground up, taking advantage of that particular consoles strengths.  This isn't finacially possible for most developers.  Plus it's just dumb.  Having a game with the same moveset that is forced to use fewer buttons (the only easy way to eliminate the fighter problem would be to just use 4 buttons instead of 6) turns out awful.  I know because they've done it before.  Go try playing mk on the gameboy or gamegear and tell me how it's a good thing to alter movesets based on the controls given.   

I'm not sure what you say that it is only bad for fighters designed around the snes gamepad because  sf, kof, sc, tekken, vf, doa console ports are all based around the 4 button layout.  So, um ALL fighters are designed around the snes layout would be a fair statement.

Some peolple were all excited about the new controls for mka on the wii.  My first thought was "So they've made the special moves so easy that anyone can do them.  That sucks!"

A rather disturbing trend on the wii right now is to re-release old games with wii controller schemes.  This is a bad thing.  I saw a new prince of persia was going to be released and I thought "Sweet!!!!" until I looked at the screnshots.  They are re-releasing the two thrones on the wii.  The two thrones was released in 2005. 

The two things don't seem related but they actually are.  Taking a game designed for one set of controls and retro-fitting it for another set of controls doesn't make a game any better, it usually makes it worse.  So having a gc port's controls modified specifically for the controller is just as dumb an idea as taking a 2 year old game and re-releasing it with wii controls slapped on.  They were both designed to be played on a regular xbox/ps2 arranged pad.  So let us frikkin play them that way!

[ChadTower]

Console games like Soul Caliber 2 are all ports.  Every version.  They're arcade games ported to consoles and thus no matter what console you're on, you're working with a roughly tweaked control scheme.

[MajorLag]

I have to disagree with Howard. If you can't make your game comfortable to play with a certain console's controller, then you shouldn't bother porting it.

Which is what I was getting at with my other statement really. SSB IS a fighting game, but it is not a traditional one because instead of trying to map a control scheme that works well on a completely different layout, the control scheme was tailored to the controller that players would actually be using. If you can't be bothered to do that with your game, then you shouldn't even port it.

Nintendo redesigned the controller in an effort to address the problems that have plagued them since their inception. But some game developers were too stuck in the past to take advantage of it and just wanted to shovelware their latest eye-candied rehash of games that were successful in 1993.

[ChadTower]

SSB isn't a port.  It's a native game.

[AtomSmasher]

A rather disturbing trend on the wii right now is to re-release old games with wii controller schemes.  This is a bad thing.  I saw a new prince of persia was going to be released and I thought "Sweet!!!!" until I looked at the screnshots.  They are re-releasing the two thrones on the wii.  The two thrones was released in 2005. 

The two things don't seem related but they actually are.  Taking a game designed for one set of controls and retro-fitting it for another set of controls doesn't make a game any better, it usually makes it worse.  So having a gc port's controls modified specifically for the controller is just as dumb an idea as taking a 2 year old game and re-releasing it with wii controls slapped on.  They were both designed to be played on a regular xbox/ps2 arranged pad.  So let us frikkin play them that way!

I agree that ports coming to the Wii generally does suck, but if you remember, the DS had the same exact problem when it launched.  The majority of the games in the first 6-12 months for the DS was either ports or minigames.  I think the problem comes from the completely new control scheme, it just takes the developers a while to figure out how exactly to take advantage of it.  Plus its a lot faster and easier to port a game then to make a new one, so publishers are just looking to make a quick buck while theres still few games available for the Wii. 

[Howard_Casto]

Console games like Soul Caliber 2 are all ports.  Every version.  They're arcade games ported to consoles and thus no matter what console you're on, you're working with a roughly tweaked control scheme.

No, not really. 

sf: two rows of 3
tekken: two rows of 2
sc: one row of 4 or two rows of 2, depending upon the cabinet
mka and beyond: released on consoles only

Do you see me mentioning a bunch of straight (or slightly curved) rows? Yes.  Do you see me mentioning a diagonal T shape (the shap of the gc layout)? No. 

You see the snes and genesis revision 2 controllers were specifically designed for fighters in mind as at the time they were literally the only games that used 6 buttons. This isn't speculation either, this is fact, go look up some old interviews from nintendo and sega if you don't believe me. Nintendo made two rows of 4 and shoulder buttons to save space, Sega made two rows of three.  The standard layout used by everyone but nintendo (ironically) today is a direct result of early console manufacturers wanting to port arcade games. 

So to say that they are all rough ports control-wise is silly when two of the consoles from that generation sported a layout designed specifically for fighters and one didn't.

I've honestly never heard so much fanboy-ism fighting this one point I wanted to make.  You can't call an entire genre of games old, wrong or shovelware just because nintendo abandonded it long ago because japaneese school girls (their target audience for the gamecube apparently) found them too complicated to play. 

And majorlag you are agreeing with me actually.  These games suck on the gc because they shouldn't have been ported.  They shouldn't have been ported because the gc controller sucks for them and the only way to fix it would be to radically alter the games, which would also suck.  The gc had horrible third-party support mainly due to the controller weather you guys like it or not. 

I used fighting games as an example but ANY multi-platform game that required you to press combinations of a/b and y/x at the same time were hard to play on the gc and thus very few multi-platform games made it to the gc and when they did, they didn't sell well because the game could be played with better controls on the ps2 or xbox.  That and the smaller disc space killed it.  In all other aspects it could compete with the other two consoles, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these differences were to blame.

I loved my gamecube, but I only own like 8 titles for it and they are all in-house nintendo jobs save bomberman (which I hate but got for free) resident evil 4 and viewtiful joe.  So they are all first party games with the exception of two gamecube exclusive (at the time) titles.  Why didn't I buy any multi-platform games?  Because I have those on my xbox. 

So to recap:

Making an entirely new controller type and thus inventing a new way to play (wiimote)=good thing
Taking an old controller type and screwing around with it (gc controller ps3/prototype controller)=bad thing.

Forcing developers to use less buttons when you don't offer them anything in return is a step backwards, and that's why the gc controller failed.  Imagine if the n64 would have used a 2 button pad and nintendo's response was "we felt that 6 buttons confused the player so we are limiting developers to two buttons and a dpad" you would have thought they were nuts right?  Well that's basically what they did with the gc controller, making the x and y buttons so small and out of the way that they are essentially unuseable as primary buttons and forced to be secondary buttons. 

You can't deny that it's easier to press y on an xbox controller or ps2 controller than on a gc controller.  And by "press" I don't mean press it at your leisure to toggle a visor or map, I mean rapidly tap it and quickly switch to other buttons on the controller, without having to worry about hitting another neighboring button.  And that was my point, why you guys keep bringing up this other crap is beyond me unless it's due to pure fanboy-ism. 

I love nintendo, but I'm more than willing to point out their mistakes.  Anyone that thinks the gc design isn't a mistake is in denial.

[shmokes]

Howard,  there's so much nonsense there I don't know where to begin (aside from the radically changing fighting game moves based on the controller; on reflection, I agree that's probably not a great idea).

For one thing, hardly any games have you press multiple buttons simultaneously.  You're blowing that out of proportion.  And even if games do make you press two buttons simultaneous, the Gamecube is superior than the competitor's gamepads by far.  Pressing A plus any other face button is incredibly easy.  Hell, you can press A+X+Y quite easily with the tip of your thumb alone, and A+B+X are lined up in a perfectly straight line if you wanted to lay your thumb across all three and press them simultaneously.  I'm not saying that any fighter's controls scheme can be easily fit onto a Gamecube pad, but I am saying that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

And to suggest that the controller is the reason Gamecube suffered in North America, rather than its perceived target audience being 12 years old is ridiculous.  To suggest that third parties abandoned Nintendo because of the Gamecube controller, rather than due to Nintendo's strongarm tactics while trying to preserve its lucrative cartridge manufacturing business with the N64 is ridiculous.  In short, to suggest that the Gamecube would have been any greater success had they merely arranged the face buttons on their controller in a traditional diamond pattern is just daft.

You need to go put a Gamecube pad in your hand right now and hold it while rereading your post.  X and Y are "so small and out of the way"?  What are you talking about?  The X and Y buttons are as big or bigger than the buttons on an Xbox or PS.  And everything is easier to reach, too.  My thumb rests constantly over both the A and the Y button, and I have tiny little girl hands.  In order for you thumb to not automatically rest directly over the Y button when holding a Gamecube pad, you would have to keep your thumb unnaturally contorted in an extremely uncomfortable position.  Nobody would do this.  To say that the Y button is out of the way, is like saying the spacebar on your keyboard is out of the way.  It's sitting right under your thumb while in home position.  Additionally, the X button, from there, is just a slight roll of my thumb to the right and the B button is just a slight roll to the left.  The buttons on a Gamecube controller are considerably more accessible and easy to hit than the other systems, whether I'm pressing them at my leisure or in the heat of complicated battle.  Seriously, before you respond to this, go put a controller in your hands (preferrably a Wavebird, since that's all I have to go off of right now, but I think the button layout and dimensions are identical on a standard controller)

And BTW, taking an old controller type and screwing around with it = SNES, Dual Shock 2, Xbox Controller S, Gamecube controller. 
All of these controllers significantly bettered their predecessors.

[versapak]

I hated the GC controller.

I found it to be too small, and the layout sucked.

Seriously... Who the heck has a problem finding buttons on a normal diamond layout? There was nothing innovative about the GC controller, and there was no need what-so-ever for the funky layout it had. It was just different for the sake of being different.

Last gen I found the Logitech wireless precision controller to be the best. It had an excellent size and shape. It suffered from the boneheaded start/back/black/white layout of the Xbox S controller, but of that generation had the best in hand feel.

Of all time as of yet though...

I find the 360 controller to be the perfect controller size, shape, and layout. The only thing I find lacking on it is the D-pad, but it just seems that quality D-pads are a thing of the past, because none of the console makers have had a quality one in years.

[shmokes]

Versapak,

I'm guessing that you have rather large hands.  I had heard a lot of good things about the Logitech Precision controller so that was the one I planned to get when I bought my first wireless Xbox controller.  But then I handled it in the store and just thought it felt too big and unwieldy, much like the original Xbox controller.  Also, FWIW, I think the black and white buttons on the S controller are much better placed than the original two-rows-of-three layout.

Also FWIW, I am a Nintendo fanboy to some extent, but I'm not a nutso fanboy.  My Xbox got about ten times the playtime in the last gen than my Gamecube.  Of the next gen systems I really want a PS3 because I never owned a PS2 so there are a lot of exclusives I missed out on.  I don't think that the Gamecube controller is superior to the others because Microsoft is the suX0r.  I love my Xbox, and in spite of awful analog stick placement and a retarded button naming scheme, I really want a PS3.  That doesn't make me right, of course.  But this ain't, as Howard says, just fanboyism talking.  It's my honest opinion.

[versapak]

Versapak,

I'm guessing that you have rather large hands.  I had heard a lot of good things about the Logitech Precision controller so that was the one I planned to get when I bought my first wireless Xbox controller.  But then I handled it in the store and just thought it felt too big and unwieldy, much like the original Xbox controller.  Also, FWIW, I think the black and white buttons on the S controller are much better placed than the original two-rows-of-three layout.

Also FWIW, I am a Nintendo fanboy to some extent, but I'm not a nutso fanboy.  My Xbox got about ten times the playtime in the last gen than my Gamecube.  Of the next gen systems I really want a PS3 because I never owned a PS2 so there are a lot of exclusives I missed out on.  I don't think that the Gamecube controller is superior to the others because Microsoft is the suX0r.  I love my Xbox, and in spite of awful analog stick placement and a retarded button naming scheme, I really want a PS3.  That doesn't make me right, of course.  But this ain't, as Howard says, just fanboyism talking.  It's my honest opinion.

I never thought of myself as having big hands, but I was always comfortable holding the original behemoth controller for Xbox, so I guess they are definitely less than girly.

I do agree that the black and white button placement on the S was better than the 6 button config of the original, but it still sucked. A problem nicely fixed this generation, and I really do believe that with a better D-pad the 360 controller would be my perfect controller.

Don't get me wrong either. I use hate in a less hostile way then the word probably implies. I found the GC controller to be plenty usable. It just really seemed needlessly different to me. There was not a single game released on cube where it hit me,  "Oh yeah, that is why they chose to make their controller lacking for 90% of the other games released.".

[shmokes]

Speaking of an open letter to Nintendo:

WHERE THE ---fudgesicle--- ARE THE CONTROLLERS???

Everybody understands system shortages during a console launch.  But peripheral shortages?  That's unheard of.  People who bought a Wii in November are still stuck with only one remote.   

[Zero_Hour]

Nintendo online seems to have them in stock pretty regularly (at least I was able to get one from them earlier this week). Everywhere else seems as spotty as the consoles themselves - gotta be there right place, right time.

[somunny]

Speaking of an open letter to Nintendo:

WHERE THE ---fudgesicle--- ARE THE CONTROLLERS???

Everybody understands system shortages during a console launch.  But peripheral shortages?  That's unheard of.  People who bought a Wii in November are still stuck with only one remote.   

Every Target I've been in (Phoenix, Scottsdale) has had them in stock recently.  Need one?

[shmokes]

Actually no, thanks.  My neighbor does.  He wanted to find one before our Superbowl party tomorrow so we could get 4-player going on.

[jelwell]

Stay on target, stay on Target!

I'll throw my two cents in here:

The VC games need to have demos available for them.  One level or timed.  Let me try before I buy.

There's a reason they don't offer demos of the vc games.  For many of the games the time you want to spend with them is so short you'd just download the free demo and never play it again. 

But I do this on my friend's XBOX all the time - play the demos repeatedly and never purchase. Yet Xbox live allows it and still they make money. I guess the VC games aren't of the same high quality. (don't ask me if I'm talking about a 360 or not - I wouldn't even know the difference, and my friend has both)

I don't see me buying any VC games anytime soon anyways though. I have all the classics on my arcade cabinet. And the more recent games are likely to have a sequel with "better" wii/mote integration, soon enough at least.
Joseph Elwell.