Glue versus Woodscrews - which should I use?

[Dreamwriter]

So I'm making my little desktop arcade machine (check it out under Project Announcements, Project 42), and I was thinking I was gonna just use woodscrews for the whole thing, but it was suggested (by my woodworking friend) that glue might be better.

So is there a good reason to use glue over woodscrews?  This thing isn't going to be big or anything, so once assembled only the bottom should ever need removing.  Thanks for your advice!

[releasedtruth]

If it's that small you could certainly use glue, but dropping some screws in there for strength certainly wouldn't hurt any. Besides, no sense not erring on the side of caution.

[NightGod]

Both FTW.

I'd rather have my cab be TOO well built than not well enough.

[ChadTower]

Both.  Drill pilot holes, pull the pieces apart, glue, then screw.

That way you don't have to clamp.

[nostrebor]

Both.

[WillBurne]

Both
Well, glue and some appropriately sized finish nails instead of screws. Use a pilot hole and a nail set. You'll find all the strength you need for this size project. Screws are definitely overkill and provide large holes to fill.
I always overkill on entryways and high traffic areas.

[BackAgain]

I agree with WillBurne.  Glue & finish nails.  I have tons of nails holding my house together and no screws. 

[NiteWalker]

Both.  Drill pilot holes, pull the pieces apart, glue, then screw.

That way you don't have to clamp.

That about says it. Use coarse threaded drywall screws if it's MDF you're making your project out of. Sorry I haven't checked it yet. On my way there now.

[DrewKaree]

I agree with WillBurne.  Glue & finish nails.  I have tons of nails holding my house together and no screws. 

I'm sure somewhere there's a screw loose

[BackAgain]

I'm sure somewhere there's a screw loose

Ya know, my wife told me I had a few loose screws, too.  I walked around the house for 3 days with a screwdriver and never did find 'em!

[miles2912]

I second the nomination for drywall screws and wood glue.  Just keep a damp shop rag handy to wipe off excess glue.

D-

[flyguy1821]

I use Gorilla Glue and regular drywall screws, course thread.  Only thing to be careful with polyurethane glue is expansion. The previous posters are correct though, the screws or nails are for temporary holding while the glue has a chance to dry.  Aren't we all about going overboard though?  I mean that is why this site was built and why we are making our own arcade cabs?!?  Go for it all, use lag bolts and weld some angle iron onto your cab!!!  She wont flex then!

[NightGod]

I have to say-I used to use Gorilla Glue and then, based on a thread here on the boards, tried out Titebond III and WOW that's amazing stuff. Bonds at least as well, no massive expansion issues, no Gorilla Hands. Check the stuff out.

[flyguy1821]

Night God is right, the worst thing about using Gorilla glue is that it gets on your hands and you can not get it off!!  Never been a big fan about gloves either. 

[Stingray]

I'll throw my vote in with both screws & glue or nails & glue. Also I second Titebond III, that's good stuff.

-S

[Nannuu]

I say both as well.  Even better if you get yourself a pocket hole jig to make hidden screws, no bondo to sand that way.  I have a Kreg PHJ, that thing is my favorite tool I own.

[MustardTent]

No wood glue for me.  I've had to move the cabinet three times since I built it -- this required getting it through a doorway smaller than the cabinet.

In addition, I've taken it apart to perform some surgery as well.

Is everybody relying on the fact that they won't have to do these things?

(Agree on the drywall screws, though)

[ChadTower]

Pretty much, yes... don't build one bigger than the doorways.  Or make it modular.

[MustardTent]

Pretty much, yes... don't build one bigger than the doorways.

What about stairs?  When they are steep enough or the ceiling is low enough (or the stairs have a turn) this doesn't solve the issue.

Or make it modular.

Let's see, what can be defined as a separate module (and be useful for transportation)?

1) CP
2) Everything else

Anything else that you make modular (for a standard upright) wouldn't help in the moving process.  I can make the marquee modular, but why?  It should be a simple process of removing that anyway. 

We could get really modular and make the entire cabinet rely on panel clamps, but who knows how well that would work?

Nope.  No glue for me.

[ChadTower]

What about stairs?  When they are steep enough or the ceiling is low enough (or the stairs have a turn) this doesn't solve the issue.

Or make it modular.

Let's see, what can be defined as a separate module (and be useful for transportation)?

1) CP
2) Everything else

Anything else that you make modular (for a standard upright) wouldn't help in the moving process.  I can make the marquee modular, but why?  It should be a simple process of removing that anyway. 

That's not true at all.  There are a lot of things that could be done to make it more modular than that.  Pretty much as many as the imagination could come up with.  You're limiting yourself to the standard shape/design of a tranditional upright.

[MustardTent]

[...] You're limiting yourself to the standard shape/design of a tranditional upright.

Agreed -- but, this is what most people have.  Now you're implying that a certain number of "tricks" are needed to make a cab sucessfully modular instead of breaking it up where it is most obvious. 

However, is the extra work that comes with that worth it over simply not using woodglue?  My cab is just fine without it.

OP, either way is fine...I'm just saying I don't use wood glue and the cab is plenty solid.

[MustardTent]

Also, to ensure that I don't derail this thread, I made a new one in the "main" forum.  I'm interested to see what people have done.

[ChadTower]

Agreed -- but, this is what most people have.  Now you're implying that a certain number of "tricks" are needed to make a cab sucessfully modular instead of breaking it up where it is most obvious. 

I don't know that I would call imaginative woodworking a trick.

[MustardTent]

If you knew my skillset you would. 

[MustardTent]

Lastly -- now we're at the point where we are discussing "imaginative woodworking" versus the use of woodglue. 

Don't need much skill to *not* use woodglue, but you need it for modularity.  OK, I'm done.

[Dreamwriter]

I forgot this thread existed   So use both glue and screws it is then - a good idea, I do want to go overkill on this (though maybe not to the point of welding iron corners onto it..)  I have a feeling my little machine could be subject to a lot of abuse (I drop stuff a lot).  And I'm gonna be using plywood, BTW, though I'm not sure yet what type.

[Gambit]

If it's that small you could certainly use glue, but dropping some screws in there for strength certainly wouldn't hurt any. Besides, no sense not erring on the side of caution.

Screws are NOT stronger than glue. Glue is stronger than screws.

The screws should only be used to hold the wood together while the glue dries.  Though if you plan on taking it apart in the future then only use screws.

Though do not use the type of glue used in the Project Arcade book. That type of glue is worthless for strength.  Use only woodworking glue.

[flyguy1821]

i tend to use a lot of paste, the superior bonding properties give me that tight seal I am looking for.  And dont worry about it splitting when those little white crumbles dry, wow what a bond!

[NightGod]

Plus, you can eat it when you get hungry while building!

[bakechad]

Another vote for Titebond III.  I used it last week to fix a cracked piece of trim outside.  I glued, clamped, and primed it 48 hours later.  You can't even tell the wood was cracked and it poured rain off and on for three days after I primed it and it's held up perfectly.  Great stuff.

I think glue and finish nails would work best if you are inexperienced(like me ).  But remember Norm glues his furniture using perfect joints everytime, no screws.  But then again, I'm not Norm and I'm guessing your not either.

[pgifford]

For modularity, what about rigging up something like Ikea uses to hold their furniture together?  I don't even know the right words to describe it accurately so perhaps someone else with a house full of Ikea furniture can help out here.

Or what about some sort of latch that can be used on the inside to hold everything together, allowing the cab to be disassembled easily? 

Perhaps bungee cords criss-crossed throughout the interior...

Paul

[Tahnok]

For modularity, what about rigging up something like Ikea uses to hold their furniture together?  I don't even know the right words to describe it accurately so perhaps someone else with a house full of Ikea furniture can help out here.

Or what about some sort of latch that can be used on the inside to hold everything together, allowing the cab to be disassembled easily? 

Perhaps bungee cords criss-crossed throughout the interior...

Paul

KD (knockdown) fittings. You can buy them here:

http://www.rockler.com/CategoryView.cfm?Cat_ID=115

I seem to have lost the link, but someone on here used them in their cab (which is where I was originally turned onto them). All my bartops have them and I can tell you that they aren't as big of a deal to get aligned as you may think.

[Stingray]

For modularity, what about rigging up something like Ikea uses to hold their furniture together?

Probably not a good idea unless you want your cab to be as wobbly as Ikea furniture.

-S

[elvis]

I agree with WillBurne.  Glue & finish nails.  I have tons of nails holding my house together and no screws. 

Is your house made from MDF?   

Where I'm from, coarse thread screws are the only way.  High humidity and temperatures means that anything nailed into fibre board comes out several weeks later, even with glue.

Structural pine and hardwoods are a different story, as they are a different material.

[ChadTower]

Dude lives in a pineapple under the sea.

[Tahnok]

For modularity, what about rigging up something like Ikea uses to hold their furniture together?

Probably not a good idea unless you want your cab to be as wobbly as Ikea furniture.

-S

If used properly, you shouldn't have any problems with stability. I've never had any problems, even after assembling and disassembling several times.

[spacies]

I dont use screws in my builds.
Too much filling and sanding involved and when using MDF the screw holes can buldge and require even more work.

I just use a 1" x 1" piece of timber on the inside of the cabinet all fixed in place with a pneumatic nailer with finishing nails and LOADS of glue on EVERY join. Once the glue is set it will 'rip' off timber but the 2 joins will still be stuck together.



And the best thing about it is there is NO filling and sanding on the external cabinetry 



Look Mom, no holes 

[kelemvor]

I just use a 1" x 1" piece of timber on the inside of the cabinet all fixed in place with a pneumatic nailer with finishing nails and LOADS of glue on EVERY join. Once the glue is set it will 'rip' off timber but the 2 joins will still be stuck together.

Do you nail them from the inside so there's really no holes on the outside at all?

[ChadTower]

That is the best combination of speed and quality, yes.

[spacies]

I just use a 1" x 1" piece of timber on the inside of the cabinet all fixed in place with a pneumatic nailer with finishing nails and LOADS of glue on EVERY join. Once the glue is set it will 'rip' off timber but the 2 joins will still be stuck together.

Do you nail them from the inside so there's really no holes on the outside at all?

Yip 

If you have an air compressor then go to your local hardware store and invest in an pneumatic nailer/stapler. Buy some nails or staples the correct size so they won't fire out the front of your cabinet and you are away laughing. Also buy loads of glue and some 1 x 1" block. 

The staples/nails are really only there to hold the block in place while the glue dries. If you try to separate 2 surfaces that have completely dried you will see that the 2 joints will stick together and you have ripped away a fresh piece of wood, if you understand???

There are ZERO holes in the face of that cabinet. Makes for a perfect finish with less time involved. I do this for a living so time is important and so is the finished product.

Here's 4 good tips for you.

1: If you plan on building a cabinet then go out and buy a sheet of MDF about half the thickness you plan to use. Measure and draw out the complete side profile of the cabinet onto the sheet. Once happy with it, cut it out and keep working on it with sandpaper until it is perfect. Being a thinner peice it is easier to work with and MDF sands sooo easily.

Now place the new template under your correct size sheet and clamp in place. This is because the best way to cut it out is to use a router with a flush cut bit and you will get an exact copy on both sides. You could take the template to your local cabinet maker and get him to flush cut it. Probably wouldnt cost that much because its only a 5 minute job. If you dont have a router, then place the template on top and trace it out and then cut. Do the same with the other side and when you have them both cut out compare the 2 and tidy up so they match.

2: The other tip is when buying your materials, ask if the hardware store can cut a sheet in half. Now you have 2  2ftx8ft sheets (or whatever you need) . All you need to do is cut of the desired length you require beause you know they are already the same width. EASY EASY EASY.

Building classic cabs is a lot easier than building a big 4 player machine with sides that look like something from Star Wars. They were designed to be mass produced, with a style of their own of course, so the quicker and easier, the better. Have a look at my pic again and let me point out something. The top, the bottom of the marquee, the back of the marquee where the light screws on, the glass holder above the control panel, the control panel, the speaker front, the peice under the speaker, the coin front, the front and rear of the bottom plinth, the base, the rear top, the rear bottom, the rear door and the monitor shelf are all the same width. How easy is that? The only thing I had to custom cut were the sides and the sides of the bottom plinth! Stick with the classics, you cant go wrong.

Oh yeah, the 2 other things were mentioned above,  buy yourself a nail/staple gun and shares in a glue company.

[Crax]

Now place the new template under your correct size sheet and clamp in place. This is because the best way to cut it out is to use a router with a flush cut bit and you will get an exact copy on both sides. You could take the template to your local cabinet maker and get him to flush cut it. Probably wouldnt cost that much because its only a 5 minute job. If you dont have a router, then place the template on top and trace it out and then cut. Do the same with the other side and when you have them both cut out compare the 2 and tidy up so they match.

If you make another video(enjoyed your last one), I would like to see you do this.  I think I understand what you are saying, but would like to see it being done.

[spacies]

There were a few pics floating around here but I cant find them.

Take a look here: http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/infin8pcbitsetrvu.htm

Look at the Flush Trim bit and you see the bearing which is used as the guide on you template. Under that is the cutting peice. In that pic the cutting has been done.

Remember that all that is upside down if you were using a handheld router.


Google image "flush trim router" and you will get some results

[melarky]

I don't know much about air nailers, would something like this be sufficient:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40115

Does it have to be a certain kind?  Would I just get the 1 1/4" nails and shoot them through 1x1 blocks into the mdf of the cabinet (with glue in between).  I am just finishing a cab, and I would definately say the putty and sanding was one of the worst parts...

[spacies]

I don't know much about air nailers, would something like this be sufficient:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40115

Does it have to be a certain kind?  Would I just get the 1 1/4" nails and shoot them through 1x1 blocks into the mdf of the cabinet (with glue in between).  I am just finishing a cab, and I would definately say the putty and sanding was one of the worst parts...

That looks fine.
18 gauge is a very small nail so will only leave a tiny hole to fill if you need to shoot from the front.
If you can find one that shoots longer staples, then buy that. But for starters that gun will do the job.
You want to go in as far as you can so try 1  1/2" nails. If they go in to far, you can turn down the air from the compressor and it wont fire through the 1x1 so much. But you should be fine with 1 1/2" nails/staples.

Sanding sucks! MDF and screws suck! Dont forget to buy lots of glue and apply to EVERY face and edge that touches another surface. NO exceptions. I will build another cabinet soon so I will post some tips of the assembly next time.

Good luck!

[johnm160]

I just bought this one and it works great.....

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40116

[spacies]

Nice John,

They only make a tiny hole so filling, if required, is a breeze 

[BackAgain]

Nope, OSB which is even worse.  My cab is plywood, though.

And Chad is right, I wear squarepants. 

[monzamess]

Look at the Flush Trim bit and you see the bearing which is used as the guide on you template. Under that is the cutting peice. In that pic the cutting has been done.

Remember that all that is upside down if you were using a handheld router.

Hey, it looks like a "Pattern Bit" would work better in a handheld router since the bearing is closer to the body of the router. I envision making the pattern, laying it on top of the work, then using the router from the top. Is it better to have the pattern on the bottom and still use the "flush triim bit" with a handheld router?

Please understand this is coming from a complete novice who's only done a couple of horrid projects wit ha router!

[danph1]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

[RTSDaddy2]

Nothing I can add here that hasn't been said, EXCEPT that I'll second NightGod...I'd rather have it TOO well built as not enough.  Just remember, you've put (if you're like most) close to $1000 in this plus countless hours of love!  Too much invested, in other words, to worry about it falling apart after the fact!

[NiteWalker]

Just remember, you've put (if you're like most) close to $1000 in this plus countless hours of love!  Too much invested, in other words, to worry about it falling apart after the fact!

Amen to that. 

Better go back and reinforce the cabinet with angle iron...

[spacies]

Nothing I can add here that hasn't been said, EXCEPT that I'll second NightGod...I'd rather have it TOO well built as not enough.  Just remember, you've put (if you're like most) close to $1000 in this plus countless hours of love!  Too much invested, in other words, to worry about it falling apart after the fact!

Thats true but building cabinets with a air stapler and glue has been done since day one. There are plenty of original cabs around still standing tall.

If you do this properly you won't have a problem.
If you want to add screws as well, you can still do it from the inside so your outside is still hole free!

[johnm160]

Nothing I can add here that hasn't been said, EXCEPT that I'll second NightGod...I'd rather have it TOO well built as not enough.  Just remember, you've put (if you're like most) close to $1000 in this plus countless hours of love!  Too much invested, in other words, to worry about it falling apart after the fact!

Thats true but building cabinets with a air stapler and glue has been done since day one. There are plenty of original cabs around still standing tall.

If you do this properly you won't have a problem.
If you want to add screws as well, you can still do it from the inside so your outside is still hole free!

How much glue do you typically use in a build? I know I use way too much, I could go over budged just on shop towels to clean up the excess.

I will have a complete 16 oz bottle gone by the time my tempest is done.

[NiteWalker]

No such thing as too much, but basically what you want to see when you apply clamping pressure is a nice even bead along the glue line. With MDF be generous, because the MDF is very porous and will soak up a lot, especially on the edges.

[prOk]

And don't forget anytime you bond mdf edge to surface to scuff the surface..   otherwise you really won't get a great bond.   Also, those that suggest screws/staples are right on.  glues behave best with good even pressure, because you can't really clamp it screws or other fasteners take that job instead.

[johnm160]

No such thing as too much, but basically what you want to see when you apply clamping pressure is a nice even bead along the glue line. With MDF be generous, because the MDF is very porous and will soak up a lot, especially on the edges.

Oh there is a nice even bead alright, could glue on the next piece with what I wipe off. But I am always afraid of not using enough. I remember seeing glue bottles with roller applicators on them years ago that solves the over use problem. I don't know if they are still around.

Pr0k.

Nice tip on the MDF, I would not have thought of that.