Refurbishing a 23' suffleboard table - Finished w/Pics!!!

[dpz147]

Well...you gotta love craigslist!!  I found this shuffleboard table for $100 including the pucks and about a dozen cans of sun-glo powder.  You can't beat that deal!  It needs to be resurfaced and although the frame is functional, I'm going to sand and stain or paint it.

I need some help and opinions:


Here's my dilemma...the longest wall in my basement is 27.5', so there would only be 1' on each side of the table, unless I cut it.  Most of my friends have said they would rather the length and put up with the tight space than cut it.  Any thoughts/opinions?

Has anyone ever refinished a table?  I read the thread a while back about the DIY table that someone built, but other than that I haven't been able to find much on the net.  Any tips/tricks?

[theCoder]

I'm no expert on shuffleboard, but I don't think I'd enjoy spending more than about 2 minutes crammed in a 1' space.  I'd shorten it.  You only paid $100 for it.  It's not likely that you've got your hands on a $5,000 priceless relic.  Die hard shuffleboard players would probably gasp at the idea, but how many of your friends will really notice if it is a foot or two short?  Good luck on the project.

[johnperkins21]

You must have some thin friends who would rather be crammed into a 1' space than to have the table a foot or two short. From the small of my back to my belly button is about a foot. Definitely not enough room. I say chop it up and enjoy playing it. I'd rather it be fun than official.

[dpz147]

I think their rational behind it is that you are only behind the table briefly while you're shooting and it's really only your legs that need to squeeze in that space, and you usually hug the table when you shoot anyway.

But I agree with you guys and have been leaning toward cutting it anyway.

A little more about the table...  It came from a Firehouse.  The last guys that tried to refinish the surface didn't do it right, so it ended up convex on the one side which caused the pucks to go off the side edges.  No one there wanted to take the time to repair it so they decided to get rid of it.  After I finished my cab, I was thinking about building a table and when I saw this, I figured it would be a lot easier and cheaper to refinish this than to build one.  Plus, a set of pucks cost around $125, so just those alone make up for the money spent.

My plan is to rent the same kind of sander that is used to refinish floors to sand off the top, and then re-apply the polyurethane.

[CheffoJeffo]

My plan is to rent the same kind of sander that is used to refinish floors to sand off the top, and then re-apply the polyurethane.

Some caution may be in order here -- you can rent a belt-style sander, which works fast (and is what the guys who do my floors use), but improperly used (e.g. pausing while the sander is running) can result in gouges. Or you can rent an orbital-style sander (like a really big palm sander) that works more slowly but presents much less risk of gouging (which is what was recommended to me way back when I wanted to refinish them myself).

Cheers.

[dpz147]

My plan is to rent the same kind of sander that is used to refinish floors to sand off the top, and then re-apply the polyurethane.

Some caution may be in order here -- you can rent a belt-style sander, which works fast (and is what the guys who do my floors use), but improperly used (e.g. pausing while the sander is running) can result in gouges. Or you can rent an orbital-style sander (like a really big palm sander) that works more slowly but presents much less risk of gouging (which is what was recommended to me way back when I wanted to refinish them myself).

Cheers.

Thanks for the suggestion.  The orbital sander sounds like a much better option.

[theCoder]

CheffoJeffo brings up an excellent point.  Those floor sanders really take the wood off fast, and they also do make it flat.  Much less risk of hi & low spots than with anything you hold in your hand.  I'd track down a local hardwood floor re-finisher and give him a call.  The conversation will cost you nothing.

[CheffoJeffo]

CheffoJeffo brings up an excellent point.  Those floor sanders really take the wood off fast, and they also do make it flat.  Much less risk of hi & low spots than with anything you hold in your hand.  I'd track down a local hardwood floor re-finisher and give him a call.  The conversation will cost you nothing.

To be clearer than I was  my initial post -- I am talking about floor sanders in both cases -- the belt-style used by pros and the orbital-style recommended for rookies. The only problem with the belt-style is if you pause while sanding (say to answer a question or wipe your brow), it'll tear a groove in the material (e.g. not flat), where that won't happen with an orbital sander.

Both are available for rental at my local Home Depot, but YMMV.

Definitely don't go hand-held.


Cheers

[vrf]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't an orbital sander tear up the grain of the wood? (The sanding direction isn't in line with the grain.)

[crsdawg]

if you are not practiced with a belt sander you will gouge your project, even if your good with one you will still probably gouge the project(one that big at least). be careful. even with an orbital sander your going to most likely end up with an uneven surface(sanded more in some areas than others) wich might effect play.

personally i'd look into a chemical stripper of some sort. my main concern with this route would be that with such a large area to strip, it might make the fumes unbearable and unhealthy. a very good mask would be a must. once that's finished and most of the original finish is off then you can give it a light block sand and then be done with it.

as for cutting it, i'm going to be in the minority and say keep it as is. i'd sit it a little caddy corner  to give some more room for shooters and then build a triangular table to fill in the space now created between the table and wall(put a tv on it or something). i hate hacking up stuff like that, and it may have only cost a $100, but that doesn't mean it's worth $100(well after you cut it maybe). try replacing it, those things aren't cheap.

oh yeah, congrats on the good deal/steal.  i'd love to have one of those, although there's no way i could have it in my place(space issues).

[CheffoJeffo]

The orbital sander that I am thinking of is wider than a shuffleboard, so the side-to-side evenness would be OK . So long as you keep it moving, I wouldn't expect any big problems end-to-end. Now, it IS big and heavy and you would need to take the legs off, put the table on the ground and have a helper.

My guess is that this is the best way to refinish it, given that someone has already fouled up the level (otherwise, I might be inclined to agree with crsdawg and limit the stripping to chemical).

OTOH, you might want to call a floor refinisher and see if they would sand it down for you ... it might take them about 30 minutes and be an easy job for them. Anybody in your neighbourhood having their floor redone ?

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't an orbital sander tear up the grain of the wood? (The sanding direction isn't in line with the grain.)

Yes, but once you take the grit level up on successive passes, then stain (which is going to raise the grain and requires hand sanding anyway) and urethane, it isn't going to be an issue.

Or at least that is the way it has always worked for me.

Cheers.

[dpz147]

The orbital sander that I am thinking of is wider than a shuffleboard, so the side-to-side evenness would be OK . So long as you keep it moving, I wouldn't expect any big problems end-to-end. Now, it IS big and heavy and you would need to take the legs off, put the table on the ground and have a helper.

It is actually already on the ground.  Because I'm going to refinish the frame, I put the playing surface on my basement floor.  It was quite a scene getting that down there too.  We had to lower it through the basement window.

[CheffoJeffo]

It was quite a scene getting that down there too.  We had to lower it through the basement window.

I was looking at getting a 16' board at one point and couldn't figure out how I was going to get that downstairs .. 7 additional feet ... wow !

Cheers.

[leapinlew]

I think the solution is to cut it in half -

two 11.5' boards - Shuffleboard tournaments

Or perhaps you can make it into a giant square - invite 3 friends over, you can each build a fort in each corner and you can play Manual Warlords...

Or, more likely, you can ignore all my suggestions!

[reptilehead]

When you re-apply the poly, the good thing is that it can be built up, if for some reason, the table isnt level after sanding, you can put up guide barriers made out of waxed posterboard taped TIGHTLY to the sides. the poly can then fill in any low areas making it perfectly level (remember those little cubes of plastic with the scorpions in it?) Those are a slightly different type of poly.I ended up re-finishing a chest and dresser, and I wanted a really deep poly covering to protect the wood and fill in a few deep gouges that I was afraid to sand out. It worked like a charm, and it has an amazing deep luster and it's nice and flat. Hopefully that will help a bit on your playability factor.
 As far as cutting it up, you wouldn't hack apart a tron or a pacman for a mame project would you? That shuffleboard table, depending on the age, is just as much a peice of game history, and one the old timers would remember more fondly than us younger ones.
 What I'd love to get if i had the room, is one of the old bowling tables, with the pins that flipped up when you slid the puck underneath it. That was the first game I ever played, and still is my favorite. When I see one of those in a bar (usually an old bar thats been around with the same owners for the last 50 years) I can't resist throwing a few bucks in it and asking the owners if they ever want to get rid of it....

[IG-88]

Don't cut it. Part of the challenge is distance accuracy, and length plays a major role in that. Not to mention the extra work involved. Besides, are you going to be in the place you are now forever?
And something else you might consider if you want to sand it yourself. Not only pausing causes problems with gouges but so will a slight "tilt" or "lean" from side to side. That will screw things up real quick. I've done the belt sander on the floor of a deck and it was no picnic. Have a pro do it.

[dpz147]

When you re-apply the poly, the good thing is that it can be built up, if for some reason, the table isnt level after sanding, you can put up guide barriers made out of waxed posterboard taped TIGHTLY to the sides. the poly can then fill in any low areas making it perfectly level (remember those little cubes of plastic with the scorpions in it?) Those are a slightly different type of poly.I ended up re-finishing a chest and dresser, and I wanted a really deep poly covering to protect the wood and fill in a few deep gouges that I was afraid to sand out. It worked like a charm, and it has an amazing deep luster and it's nice and flat. Hopefully that will help a bit on your playability factor.

That's what the previous owner did and I was thinking of doing the same.  The original owner must have done something wrong because the poly eventually buckled and split on one end.  Any idea what would have caused that? I'll try to post pics of it so you can see what I mean.

As far as cutting it up, you wouldn't hack apart a tron or a pacman for a mame project would you? That shuffleboard table, depending on the age, is just as much a peice of game history, and one the old timers would remember more fondly than us younger ones.

I feel the same way, which is why I'm having a hard time making up my mind.  I just can't imagine only having a foot on each side though.  I can put it caddy corner but it will cut off a good bit of my basement because it's so long.  Apparently, there are lines drawn on the board showing were to cut it in case it ever needs to be shortened.  I wish I could expand my basement a couple feet. 

[dpz147]

Don't cut it. Part of the challenge is distance accuracy, and length plays a major role in that. Not to mention the extra work involved. Besides, are you going to be in the place you are now forever?

Actually...yes.  We bought this house 2 years ago with the intention of never needing to move again.  Plus, even if we ever do, I can't imagine trying to get this thing out.

[theCoder]

You're not going to move, you can't imagine ever trying to get it out of your basement, and putting it caddy corner will cut off a good bit of your basement.  I know which way I'd go.

[IG-88]

I thought you were in an apt. for some reason.....Knock a wall out. 

[reptilehead]

That's what the previous owner did and I was thinking of doing the same.  The original owner must have done something wrong because the poly eventually buckled and split on one end.  Any idea what would have caused that? I'll try to post pics of it so you can see what I mean.


I feel the same way, which is why I'm having a hard time making up my mind.  I just can't imagine only having a foot on each side though.  I can put it caddy corner but it will cut off a good bit of my basement because it's so long.  Apparently, there are lines drawn on the board showing were to cut it in case it ever needs to be shortened.  I wish I could expand my basement a couple feet. 

Like anything that cures, heat is the biggest kiler, but it probably more than likely is one of two options, either it was applied thick in one coat (if the cracking is everywhere and smaller) or left in hot or wet areas (if the cracking is deep and fresh). Going to a commercial polymer producer with some pics of the board and an accurate description of what you need to do will get you amazing results, they will be able to tell you the BEST poly to place on the wood, how to long to cure it between coats (if any with the "correct" poly)
 We're not talking the residential one step buy it in a gallon poly here, we're talking about a 2 stage polymer  with an acclerant, similar to a fiberglass compound as to how its mixed. (1 gallon to .5oz)
 The pros know, try looking in the good book of knowledge (phone book) for "industrial flooring" "polymer flooring" or "non-skid floor coatings" (all this is is the same thing as the other two with sand added after its batched). Oh and as a side benifit, it also can be colored, so if ya happen to want a colored tinge to the wood or a solid color top it can be done too.
 I'm still against cutting the table, one end out slightly askew would be more than enough to make it comfy playable, perhaps a re-orginization of the game room is in order... perhaps a game cab on one side of the board twords the wall, so the shuffleboard sits out at a slight angle and fill it in with a bookshelf stereo or game memorabilia? Better yet....  showcase it, don't stuff it! make it the center of the room and work everything else around it... heck depending on W.A.F. or if you PLAN on getting divorced, maybe the living room or dining room has more space?
  I'm not in your position, so I can't really tell how cramped you are, but I can say that I would have no straight wall in my house to put a 23' table, without blocking a door, a few windows, and a fireplace, or a door a few windows and loose the dining room table,  but if I was lucky enough to score that table (or my bowling board) I can tell you I'd be blocking a door and eating on the couch. (more than likely sleeping in the yard too)
But hey! who needs floor to ceiling 5' wide windows on every wall and 4 sets of french doors to the outside world? And sleeping on a cot in the yard is kinda like camping!

[dpz147]

Thanks for all the great info and suggestions reptilehead!  One thing I have definitely decided about this project is that I'm going to take my time with it and do it right.  When I first saw this table, my initial thought was "I can't wait to get this in my basement and play it".  After getting it home, I realized and appreciated what a gem I had found.  I decided that I'm going to dismantle the entire frame, sand it (which I've already started), stain it, and re-upholster the inside of it.  I'm going to add some hardware to give the legs some more support too.  As soon as I can get a friend to help me (and clean my basement a bit), I'm going to get a tape measure and simulate the length of the table to see exactly what my options are and what angles would be needed to keep the thing in tact.  I'm going to do everything I can to keep it in one piece without requiring people to lose weight before they can fit behind it to play.

So...I've accepted the fact that it may be a couple months before I throw that first puck, but in the long run, I think it will be worth it.

If anyone knows anything about upholstering or knows of a good "how to", I could use the help.

[dpz147]

If anyone knows anything about upholstering or knows of a good "how to", I could use the help.

Actually...after thinking about it, I'll probably just line it with carpet similar to David's DIY table http://www.davesspot.com/shuffleboard.htm   but with less shag, to make it easier clean up the wax powder.

[dpz147]

I contacted 4 professional floor refinishers.  I heard back from 2 out of the 4.  Both strongly recommended chemical strippers over sanding, fearing that any kind of sanding could damage it.

One of them also recommended shellac followed by car wax.  I'm assuming this is different from polyurethane, but would there be any pros or cons of doing it that way?

Any thoughts???

[mpm32]

Don't sand it, you'll never get a flat surface.  I know it was a pain in the ass to get it in the basement but take it to a lumber yard that has a surface planer.  Not a home depot or lowe's but a lumber yard that still cuts custom millwork.  Probably won't cost you that much and you'll start your resoration off right and it will be much quicker.

Call around to lumber yards in your area.  Not sure if they'll make you take the finish off or not.  Not sure what the old finish would do to their planer knives.

[dpz147]

What I'd love to get if i had the room, is one of the old bowling tables, with the pins that flipped up when you slid the puck underneath it. That was the first game I ever played, and still is my favorite. When I see one of those in a bar (usually an old bar thats been around with the same owners for the last 50 years) I can't resist throwing a few bucks in it and asking the owners if they ever want to get rid of it....

Here you go:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Strike-Master-Bowling-Arcade-Bar-Game-Shuffleboard_W0QQitemZ8289030868QQihZ020QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Only 30 min left though...

[dfc106]

I contacted 4 professional floor refinishers.  I heard back from 2 out of the 4.  Both strongly recommended chemical strippers over sanding, fearing that any kind of sanding could damage it.

One of them also recommended shellac followed by car wax.  I'm assuming this is different from polyurethane, but would there be any pros or cons of doing it that way?

Any thoughts???

Shellac isn't a good choice for something that needs a durable finish.  People use it because it dries fast and its a natural product that has a natural look.  Not what you need in a shuffleboard table.  Modern shuffleboard tables are coated with Poly.  I do like the idea of car wax.  I used a natural wax, and aside from being hard to apply and buff. I doubt it protects as well as a modern synthetic wax.  Next time I wax my surface I'll use car wax. 

I also second the idea of getting the surface planed at a place that does millwork.  You mentioned that the board is slightly convex.  Planing is probably the only real solution to that problem.

There isn't much information on shuffleboard surfaces on the web, but here is one thing I did find in my searches.  Not terribly usefull, but maybe some inspiration if nothing else.
http://www.zieglerworld.com/Shuffleboard%20Refinishing%20Tips.htm

[dpz147]

I also second the idea of getting the surface planed at a place that does millwork.  You mentioned that the board is slightly convex.  Planing is probably the only real solution to that problem.

The only part that is slightly convex is the thick coating of poly.  The wood itself looks ok, so if I can get the poly off, it should resolve the convex problem.

There isn't much information on shuffleboard surfaces on the web, but here is one thing I did find in my searches.  Not terribly usefull, but maybe some inspiration if nothing else.
http://www.zieglerworld.com/Shuffleboard%20Refinishing%20Tips.htm

I actually did find this site already...and I agree, not to much actual information, but nice to see that people have successfully refinished these things themself.  It's hard to believe the lack of information in the vast world of cyberspace, concerning this issue.

Another floor finisher weighed in with his opinion.  He still recommended a chemical stripper, but for finishing suggested a sanding sealer, followed by several coatings of wax.  His thinking is that it would be easier to maintain because if it scuffs up you just buff it.

What do you think?

[dpz147]

Also...I've seen sanding sealer, but what is it?

[dfc106]

Also...I've seen sanding sealer, but what is it?

AFAIK sanding sealer is only used on porous woods like oak or mohagany to fill the poors before finishing.  Or it's used before staining to give a more consistent stain.  No reason I know of to use it on maple. 

If its only the poly that is convex, then chemical stripper will take care of that.  It will probably take 3 or 4 coats of the stuff.  Are you sure its poly though?  Sound like it may have been a pour on lacquer that didn't level properly.  That stuff goes on really thick.  I don't know how well a chemical stripper will take it off.  I mean it probably will still work, but might need lots of coats.  Also those strippers are really really nasty.  Make sure you follow all the directions and most importantly DO IT OUTSIDE.

[dpz147]

If its only the poly that is convex, then chemical stripper will take care of that.  It will probably take 3 or 4 coats of the stuff.  Are you sure its poly though?  Sound like it may have been a pour on lacquer that didn't level properly.  That stuff goes on really thick.  I don't know how well a chemical stripper will take it off.  I mean it probably will still work, but might need lots of coats.  Also those strippers are really really nasty.  Make sure you follow all the directions and most importantly DO IT OUTSIDE.

The previous owner mentioned poly but he may have not have known for sure.  Is there any way to tell the difference between poly and lacquer?

Doing this outside isn't really an option.  It took 6 pretty big guys to lower it through my basement window...and that's when we had gravity working with us.  I have 4 basement windows.  I was planning on putting fans in them. 2 pumping air in and 2 pumping air out.

[reptilehead]

Here you go:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Strike-Master-Bowling-Arcade-Bar-Game-Shuffleboard_W0QQitemZ8289030868QQihZ020QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Only 30 min left though...

Awww man... day late dollar short... I JUST saw this bidding had ended... went (reasonably) cheap, and it woulda made a nice little weekend trip going to TX. There's one of those in the roller rink where my son goes occasionally, I'm going to ask them if they'll part with it. The owners told me once that only the adults play it, and since many adults don't rollerskate, I might be in luck....
 The ones I remember though, from way back when (late 70's) weren't digital at all and had rolling numbers like an odometer... eh well someday.
 When you chemstrip this thing indoors, definately use ventilation, as well as a good quality resperator, go into an industrial supply store, tell them what you plan, and have them fit it for you. have them show you how to properly care for it, and maintain it. This resperator is the only thing that will save you from caustic chemicals entering your lungs, make sure its a good one. ALSO make sure that you have someone (outside in fresh air) monitoring you at regular intervals without entering your workspace (confined space work permits--- read up on them and follow their guidelines) They are the only ones keeping you alive if the potential worst would happen (collapse from lack of oxygen).
 Yeah I know, you PROBABLY won't follow confined space permits, but this is potentially life threatening in an enclosed area. Whatever you do... no smoking and go outside every hour (or less) or if you begin to feel tired.


 This has been a public service announcement from an OSHA trained confined space entry person who has worked with hazmat and those wonderful chemical strippers and has killed off many brain cells painting with laquer indoors without a resperator.
 

[dpz147]

When you chemstrip this thing indoors, definately use ventilation, as well as a good quality resperator, go into an industrial supply store, tell them what you plan, and have them fit it for you. have them show you how to properly care for it, and maintain it. This resperator is the only thing that will save you from caustic chemicals entering your lungs, make sure its a good one. ALSO make sure that you have someone (outside in fresh air) monitoring you at regular intervals without entering your workspace (confined space work permits--- read up on them and follow their guidelines) They are the only ones keeping you alive if the potential worst would happen (collapse from lack of oxygen).
 Yeah I know, you PROBABLY won't follow confined space permits, but this is potentially life threatening in an enclosed area. Whatever you do... no smoking and go outside every hour (or less) or if you begin to feel tired.


 This has been a public service announcement from an OSHA trained confined space entry person who has worked with hazmat and those wonderful chemical strippers and has killed off many brain cells painting with laquer indoors without a resperator.
 

Thanks for all the great advise...but after reading it, sanding it is sounding much more appealing. 

[dfc106]

Thanks for all the great advise...but after reading it, sanding it is sounding much more appealing. 

I think with respirator and good airflow you're fine.  Make sure if you have a central air unit in the basement that it won't be running, and the door upstairs is sealed reasonable well. 

I think sanding is a mistake.  You'll never get it even again once you start taking off material with a sander.

[reptilehead]

I agree, it's not that hard to buy a good resperator, they're around 45 bucks, and with the ventilation (fans in an out) it will be more than sufficent. You'll get a better finish product by stripping it. The biggest issue I've seen over and over again is that people buy the wrong type of resperator or filters, or they get the "cheapest one" that usually doesnt fit right. A proper seal is vital for the well being of the wearer, and usually the "cheapest" ones aren't fitted correctly.
 A good resperator is one of the "Must haves" in a tool kit if you paint, refinish, sand, work with powders ect. This is something (proper use of resperators) that really should be taught in "shop class" back in middle school when you start staining and sealing that ugly clock that you made that doesn't sit quite level. However they just threw a mask at you (usually with either clogged or improper filters) and told you to put it on but didn't bother to say why or how.
 And guess what? That sanding you're planning on doing is going to require a mask too (not just those useless paper masks that do nothing) plus the staining and sealing as well. 
Better, faster and easier to strip, go with the chemstrip. Grab your resperator and have at! And in the end.... MORE PIX!
 

[dpz147]

OK...here's the situation.  I tried everyway possible to not cut this table, but unless I cut my basement in half diagonally (which with 5 kids isn't really an option), I am starting to face the sad reality that the table needs to be cut. 

So here is the next question... since I need to cut it anyway, how far should I cut it?  Right now it (just the playing surface) is 23'8".  I can get away with cutting it (the playing surface) down to 22'.  This would give me 2' on each side between the table and the wall. Now, from what I've read, a regulation 22' table has a playing surface of 20'8" plus 8" of "drop off zone" on each side which equals the 22'.  So...do I cut just the bare minimum to keep some of the original length or go down to regulation size?

Thoughts?

[theCoder]

2 feet on each side should be good or at least better.  I wonder if the 8" drop zone is really that critical.  Every inch you cut from the drop zone is another inch at your thighs.  What if you went with only 5" drop zones?  I think it all boils down to your desire to keep it competely "regulation" and the likelihood that you will sell it to a "got to be regulation" kind of buyer vs. the playabity of the thing down in your basement.  I'm pretty sure my kids and party guests would never know or care about a 5% delta from the official length.  Just my 2 cents.

[JamIt]

OK...here's the situation.  I tried everyway possible to not cut this table, but unless I cut my basement in half diagonally (which with 5 kids isn't really an option), I am starting to face the sad reality that the table needs to be cut. 

Thoughts?

I'm not a carpenter or mechanical engineer, nor do I play much shuffleboard (yet), but couldn't you mod the table a tad to make it "movable"?  My initial thought was casters, but that table probably weighs a bunch.  So maybe some type of "rollers" attached to the wall that will allow you to "slide" the table a foot each way?
Just a thought (hope its not too stupid)
--JamIt

[dpz147]

I'm not a carpenter or mechanical engineer, nor do I play much shuffleboard (yet), but couldn't you mod the table a tad to make it "movable"?  My initial thought was casters, but that table probably weighs a bunch.  So maybe some type of "rollers" attached to the wall that will allow you to "slide" the table a foot each way?
Just a thought (hope its not too stupid)
--JamIt

I never thought about that, but I think it would be difficult for a few reasons.  First, I believe it is over 800 pounds, so it would be difficult to move on anything.  Also, the feet of it are leveling bolts and the levelness of it is the most important part.  I think it would be difficult to ensure it's level if it was on anything other than it's feet.

[dpz147]

The ones I remember though, from way back when (late 70's) weren't digital at all and had rolling numbers like an odometer... eh well someday.
 

This is what you're looking for reptilehead...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Bowling-Shuffleboard-Game-RARE_W0QQitemZ6288421023QQihZ010QQcategoryZ20270QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[dpz147]

Well...I had a busy and long weekend trying to get this thing done.  I almost pulled an "all nighter" on Saturday, I was up till 5am.

Anyway, I sanded and stained the entire frame.  It looks pretty good except every piece came up a slightly different shade.  They must have used different kinds of wood when building it, which might be why they had it stained dark red.  I was debating re-staining the whole thing darker, but it didn't look bad when it was all put together.

I decided against the chemical stripper because of my four young kids and pregnant wife...it just wasn't worth the risk.  I ended up renting an orbital floor sander from Home Depot.  After about an hour of going up and down with 20 grit paper, I stopped to take a look to see how much poly was left, and it looked like I barely made a dent in it.  So, I decided to go with plan "B"...flip the board and sand the bottom.  It was rather rough looking at the start but I figured with some heavy sanding it might just work.  After about a dozen passes with 20 grit, I gradually stepped it up 36, 60, 80, 120 and 150 grit paper.  After all the dust settled (pun intended) it actually looks really good! I can't see or feel any gouges and I went up and down with a level and it looks pretty close to perfect.  I'm quite happy with it so far.

As far as cutting it goes...I had to do it.  There didn't seem to be any feasible way to fit it as it was and be able to play with any bit of comfort.  The only other option that might have worked (which was given to me after the fact, of course) was to push the table flush to one side of the basement and always throw in one direction.  I might have actually gone in that way if I had of thought of it.  Oh well...the good news is that at least now it is regulation size.  It was 25' (which is longer than regulation) and I cut off 3' to make it exactly a 22' regulation table.  It actually looks and fits really nice.  There's about 2.5' on each side of the table.  I figured at least if I have anyone over that is used to playing at bars, it will feel the same and even more importantly, when I go out to bars I'll be able to kick some major shuffleboard butt (after a bit of practice).
The cut looks really good. I clamped my straight edge to the board to make sure I stayed perfectly straight.  The only down side was that even at my circular saw's deepest setting, it wasn't deep enough to go all the way through.  I had to flip the board to finish the cut.  When trying to flip it back (it's a 700lb board) I accidentally dropped it on my foot!   That really hurt and is still swollen and bruised.  I haven't gotten any x-rays yet but might go get checked out tonight if it doesn't improve.

Ok,so here's my question...I'm about to finish the table...does anyone know the pros and cons of lacquer vs. polyurethane?  I have found several posts where people used lacquer, including one from someone that used to work in a shuffleboard factory. Does lacquer self level the way poly will?  Does one last longer than the other?

Pics will be coming soon. My wife left the digital camera sitting on a park bench last week, so I'm without a camera right now. 

[dpz147]

Ok,so here's my question...I'm about to finish the table...does anyone know the pros and cons of lacquer vs. polyurethane?  I have found several posts where people used lacquer, including one from someone that used to work in a shuffleboard factory. Does lacquer self level the way poly will?  Does one last longer than the other?

Anybody? 

[dfc106]

Lacquer Pros - Dries fast. Repairs and flaws in old coats can be fixed easily with more coats
Lacquer Cons - Really nasty fumes.

Poly Pros - Most durable and water resistant finish. Applies easily with a foam brush
Poly Cons - Needs to dry a couple hours between coats, which can lead to dust settling on the surface.

They both apply pretty easy, and brush strokes will work themselves out of both.  Poly is the most durable finish available.  There really isn't any reason not to use it.

[dpz147]

Thanks for the information.  I picked up some poly and some foam brushes this evening.  Hopefully I can get a good 5 or 6 coates on over the next few days, allow a couple days to cure...and just in time to play on July 4th! 

Thanks again!

[dpz147]

This is probably a dumb question but...when I sand with 220 grit paper in between coats of poly, can that be done with my orbital palm sander, or should it be done by hand?

[dfc106]

This is probably a dumb question but...when I sand with 220 grit paper in between coats of poly, can that be done with my orbital palm sander, or should it be done by hand?

I did.  Just very lightly and on the slowest setting.  Just take a quick pass over the whole thing. 

Also when you poly, make sure you have really good light and you carefully check the whole board to be sure you didn't miss a spot.  Even if your brush goes over the whole board its still possible you have a streak where there is no poly.  It happened to me a couple times on the side of my board where the light wasn't as good.  And if it happens on one coat it will probably happen in the same place on the next coat, which makes it really tough to fix.

[dpz147]

What did you do to fix it? I noticed that on my 2nd coat.  It almost seemed like there were spots where the poly wouldn't adhere to.  I would see the "dry" spot and throw some more poly there, but it almost looks like a greasy spot you're trying to put water on that just won't stay covered. 

[dfc106]

I had to give a whole board a good hard sanding with 150 then 220 grit.  Then after 3 more coats of poly it was mostly not noticable.  I never got it perfect, but I've never noticed it affect gameplay either. 

If you have a spot that poly won't adhere to, you might try wiping the area with mineral spirits and letting it dry thoroughly.  That should clean off any residue.  But be carefull.  The mineral spirits could take off some of the poly too, which might just make things worse.

[DrewKaree]

I dunno if I've found this too late or not, but my guess as to the reason the previous refinishing attempt was screwed up as you described it was uneven application of finish to BOTH sides.  My guess is that they built up the finish on one side (the playing side) and didn't treat both sides equally.  In order to avoid problems, you should apply equal layers to each side as you go.

As far as for why laquer, it dries harder than poly.  Most any other finish dries harder than poly.  It's a benefit of poly - it "flexes" somewhat, meaning with seasonal changes or movement, it still stays together.

[dpz147]

I dunno if I've found this too late or not, but my guess as to the reason the previous refinishing attempt was screwed up as you described it was uneven application of finish to BOTH sides.  My guess is that they built up the finish on one side (the playing side) and didn't treat both sides equally.  In order to avoid problems, you should apply equal layers to each side as you go.

The previous owner did only build up the one side, the bottom was still unfinished from the factory.  Not that I'm doubting you Drew, because you know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but why do both sides need to be built up?  I can't imagine going through this process twice.   As it is now, I've only refinished one side, which used to be the bottom.

[dpz147]

Well, I'm finally done and it plays great!!  I went to minwax.com and searched through their forums for tips on applying poly.  One thing I found was to always brush it in one direction, not back and forth, which I did not know and didn't do on the first couple of coats.  And they also recommended that after it is all brushed on, to hold the brush vertical and run the brush tip down the length of the board.  This method did seem to help with the "dry" spots.

Here's some pics of the finished product.  It's fun (and quite satisfying) to compare the before and after shots!

[dpz147]

A couple more pics...

[theCoder]

Congratulations.  I've been following your progress since the beginning.  You've been at it for a little more than a month.  It must feel great!  I can't wait to write a similar entry in my thread.

Good job.

[dpz147]

Thanks Coder!  I've been following your project as well and I'm looking forward to the final pics.  The 4th of July was my motivation to get it done.  We were having some family over and I wanted to use that to kick things off, especially since they were the ones that helped me move this beast.

[DrewKaree]

I dunno if I've found this too late or not, but my guess as to the reason the previous refinishing attempt was screwed up as you described it was uneven application of finish to BOTH sides.  My guess is that they built up the finish on one side (the playing side) and didn't treat both sides equally.  In order to avoid problems, you should apply equal layers to each side as you go.

The previous owner did only build up the one side, the bottom was still unfinished from the factory.  Not that I'm doubting you Drew, because you know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but why do both sides need to be built up?  I can't imagine going through this process twice.   As it is now, I've only refinished one side, which used to be the bottom.

Finishes generally "stretch" a bit as they dry.  If you look at 'em, when you first put it down, the stuff is a nice liquid.  As it starts to dry, it'll take on an ever-so-slight texture, and when fully cured, it'll be fully dry, "stretched", and hardened to protect your piece.  What you're also doing in the process is introducing a liquid to one side of the wood, and not the other.  This will cause the two sides to dry at different rates.  Wood is a natural material.  It'll absorb and release moisture depending on different times of the year and the area you live in - ever have a wooden door stick, but it magically goes away after a bit?  The wood expands while absorbing moisture from the surrounding air, and contracts when drying out. 

By having an unfinished side, you're creating a situation where that side will absorb moisture at a different rate, and release it at a different rate as well.  The problem comes in when one side dries out faster than the other.  This can cause several different problems in wood.  A lot of times, it'll start with checking.  A check is just a seam that splits open due to this drying process.  This happens most often because the growth rings ALSO absorb moisture at different rates. 

Other problems besides checking are cupping (side-to-side curve of the wood), warping (end-to-end curve of the wood), and bowing or twisting (essentially a twist of the wood, kinda like the shape of a piece of licorice ).  If you want to test this for yourself, here's something you can do.  Take a piece of wood and lay it flat on a concrete floor for a week or so, then pick it up and let it dry for a bit.  It won't be as severe as you might see at the lumber yard, but you should see some slight warpage of the wood.  It's usually a good idea when you bring some wood home to let it rest somewhere for a week or so to let it acclimate to your house.  Keep it off the ground and sticker it (some small thin pieces of wood between the pieces) to let air flow around it.

There may be instances where there's no problem at all, but generally, wood moves as it goes through seasonal changes, and introducing another factor that can add to problems in the wood might not be the only reason the wood can warp, but it might be the catalyst.  Obviously there are going to be pieces of furniture that might never experience a problem, but there are also going to be those pieces that exhibit quite exaggerated results too.  The small amount of time needed to slap a coat of finish on the other side is pretty cheap insurance, I think.  I'd think you don't need to do 'em EXACTLY equal either.  I'd think 2 or 3 coats on the non-use side to seal it up should be enough, but I've just always treated both sides the same (albeit not sanding and finishing the unseen side the same).

[dpz147]

Hey Drew,

Thanks for taking the time to type out such a thorough explanation.

Since I ended up refinishing the bottom and using that as the new playing surface, what is now the bottom, still has the old thick layer of poly still on it.  Do you think that is sufficient?

[DrewKaree]

Hey Drew,

Thanks for taking the time to type out such a thorough explanation.

Since I ended up refinishing the bottom and using that as the new playing surface, what is now the bottom, still has the old thick layer of poly still on it.  Do you think that is sufficient?

Possibly (and more likely, probably).  The thing to remember is that you sanded off the finish, exposing the wood.  At that point, the wood would start to absorb moisture from the air (or if you're in a dry climate, it'd start to dry out).  It doesn't sound as if you let it go that long between sanding it down and refinishing it.  Honestly, there's only one way to find out, and the bad part is that if it's NOT sufficient, it'll show up later when it's a PITA to deal with. 

How thick are the pieces?  The wider and thinner the piece of wood, the more prone it is to warping.  If it's like some of the tables I've seen and it's essentially a few dozen 2x4's on edge, I'd think you should be good.  If it's just three-quarter thick stuff, I'd think seriously about stripping and refinishing that side too in order to match the side you refinished.

[NightGod]

From his pics, I'd say it's a bunch of 2x4s.

I seriously doubt he has anything to worry about.

[dpz147]

It's actually a little bit thicker than 2x4's on end.  I wasn't able to get all the poly off the old playing surface, which is why I ended up flipping it.  It was poured on so thick by the previous owner, I eventually gave up and flipped it.

Just as a side note...the previous owner didn't know for sure but this table is probably 30-40 years old.  It's pretty solid.

[dfc106]

Great work.  The table looks fantastic.  I bet it's a blast to play on a table that size.  What did you wax it with?  What speed powder wax are you using?

Does it have climatic adjusters?  I'm guesing no based on the age, but if it does they should counter any warping, cupping, etc.  You could always add them if you wanted, but its probably more trouble and expense than its worth.

[dpz147]

Thanks dfc!  It does not have climatic adjusters but I run a dehumidifier in my basement 24x7 so hopefully that helps.

I waxed it with Premium Turtle Wax paste wax and then sprayed a light coat of Silicone.  I'm not exactly sure the speed of the powder wax.  It's Sun-glo and says XX-Fast Wax on the label.  The previous owner gave me 14 cans of it.

It is pretty sweet to play!

[Wade]

Neat find!  You should look into the casters more.  800 lbs isn't that heavy, I have a 750 lb game on casters, and I roll it around just fine by myself.  Also, a 950 lb piano.  Maybe you could mark the spots on the floor, and make sure it is level just in that spot.  Then roll it off to the side when you aren't playing.

Wade

[reptilehead]

Ive been away far too long, Freaking Pc blew up on me!  but Im back and i have to say "GREAT JOB"  flipping the table over and re-finishing the bottom, creative way to get around all that mess on top! May it bring you years of happiness, and if you're like me, a 5spot a game!
 Side note, yeah the wife FINALLY cracked and put the kabash on the whole shuffle-bowl, almost cracked my scull in the process too. She told me I've gotta fix the xbox (or replace it) and I gotta get the ps3 before I can build the game station, so at least shes letting me have that. I don't know HOW THE HECK you convinced yours to let you have that thing, but share to the world, cause my shuffle-bowl depends on it!!!
 
  seriously though, great job!