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Author Topic: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...  (Read 39272 times)

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ChadTower

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2005, 11:03:29 am »

Shouldn't have been an issue, because the Police should have been arriving to collect his brutally beaten body.  The bystanders should have killed him.

He stabbed a baby.   F him.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2005, 11:09:04 am »
I read your clarification, but you're not the only one in the thread who called for expanded police powers.  I think Shape D and Soapboy both called for it after your clarification.
Correction, All I stated is
Quote
he stabbed a baby, F him.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2005, 11:11:45 am »

Shouldn't have been an issue, because the Police should have been arriving to collect his brutally beaten body.  The bystanders should have killed him.

He stabbed a baby.   F him.

See, now we've got some common ground here.  I completely agree.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2005, 06:12:25 pm »
It's not a question of what they baby may do, it is a question of what the baby HAS done.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2005, 07:21:29 pm »

Shouldn't have been an issue, because the Police should have been arriving to collect his brutally beaten body.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2005, 08:42:50 am »
am i the only one who think it's more of a tragedy to lose a hero than a baby?  a baby can windup a drug dealer, a murderer, a terrorist, etc. but a made man or woman is of greater value to the world.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2005, 01:22:02 am »
I think some of the scarily over the top comments in this thread illustrate why it's such a good thing that we have courts, a criminal justice system, due process, presumption of innocence etc. instead of mob rule.

I find it hard to believe that you took my comments as over the top.

I will never befriend or continue being friends with someone who stabs babies.  Eff that whole "another chance" thing to allow them to hang out with me.  I've got way too many non-baby-stabber friends, so I don't need to hang around with baby-stabbers.  Eff them.

It's the flat-out truth, and if you think it's over the top that I've got too many non-baby-stabber friends, well eff you too then.  I'm not gonna befriend a few baby-stabbers just to have you think more of me, because as has been stated numerous times, he stabbed a baby.  Eff him.


The thing that kills me is that it's all you wacko conservatives who supposedly have the LEAST amount of faith in the ability of the covernment to do any kind of job correctly that want to hand this absurd power to them.


Please don't lump me in with "them".  I still have no faith in the ability of the government to know when a person should be killed, and do not believe in the death penalty.  People like those of us in here are on juries all the time.  Since you'd be considered my "peers", I don't want any of you with the power to throw that switch, in however small a way you have that power.  Stingray alone would see what happens if it were thrown "for just a second....just to see what happens".

Quote

They bungle it ALL THE TIME. 


We agree on yet another thing.  And one more reason why I don't believe in the death penalty.

I AM in favor of high-rise prisons, as the idiots who seem to design them in my area can't come up with anything that doesn't swallow up a thousand acres on which is planted, at best, a 3 story building.  2 stories if it's a large facility.  Go underground as well.  Might as well save on heating and cooling bills and use the earth to save us money there.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2005, 01:53:05 am »
I will direct this question to you Drew, not because you have argued your case the hardest or the most convincingly, but simply because you were the last poster.

In your opinion, is there any crime a person can do that warrants their life be extinguished? Think up some real horrible stuff, things that make the baby stabber look like a boy scout.

Is there a cut-off point when a human no longer deserves to live because of something just plain evil they have done?

* Edit- In this hypothetical situation, assume there can be no denying the person did the crime. DNA testing, video footage, witnesses, whatever in your mind leaves no doubt of innocence.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 02:03:00 am by BrokenBones »

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2005, 02:21:25 am »
In your opinion, is there any crime a person can do that warrants their life be extinguished? Think up some real horrible stuff, things that make the baby stabber look like a boy scout.

There are many things people will do to others that can cause me to wish their lives to be extinguished.  Warranted, no. 

Quote

Is there a cut-off point when a human no longer deserves to live because of something just plain evil they have done?


I think there certainly may arise circumstances where I may take matters into my own hands.  I still wouldn't condone my actions, and in fact may be just as guilty if I DID take matters into my own hands as the person I decided to judge.

No.  There is no cut-off point (to me) when a human being deserves to be punished with death.  I do, however, disagree with parole.  If a person is judged to be convicted of a certain time frame for committing a crime, that sentence should be carried out.  "Good behavior" should have been exercised before the crime was committed, not cited when rewarding someone after they commit a crime.  A life sentence should mean for the duration of their life. 

In today's world, if a person kills several people, each victim is a separate count.  While it gives that person worth in their death (instead of lumping them in as a group), it shouldn't matter if a person gets 1 life sentence, or 12.  Life should mean life, and tacking on another 11 counts only tries to avoid the possibility of parole.  Maybe that's a bit simplistic, but sentences should be given for a reason.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2005, 02:33:48 am »
No.  There is no cut-off point (to me) when a human being deserves to be punished with death.
OK!  :)

I find it interesting that yourself and shmokes hold this same belief but from complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I personally don't share this view and I am not judging, just absorbing info.


Life should mean life,
Agreed!


What about if somebody stabbed a baby and then mamed a Dragons Lair?   ::)  ;D

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2005, 02:48:24 am »
No.  There is no cut-off point (to me) when a human being deserves to be punished with death.
OK!  :)

I find it interesting that yourself and shmokes hold this same belief but from complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I personally don't share this view and I am not judging, just absorbing info.

And I'm betting we came to this same belief through wildy different methods.  Mine is right, though. ;)

I understand and don't condemn folks for a different belief in this area, it's your belief for a reason, same as mine.

Quote
What about if somebody stabbed a baby and then mamed a Dragons Lair?   ::)  ;D

Well, that's just a crime against humanity or something.  I'm sure many would rise up to beat that person to within an inch of their life.....and then stop!  Meh.  I don't like Dragon's Lair.  Babies, sure. 
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2005, 06:51:57 am »
Ok, so even if the baby's life was saved, the man still deserves death under the law?  And this crime is more brutal than any serial killer in history?  How can you separate your emotions from brutal crimes in history, in foreign countries, and among strangers; but be so enthralled by this case?  It is important that we have emotion in creating our laws, but to abandon logic and equality in creating laws and punishing criminals will surely lead to anarchy.  And if they actually sentence the man to death for attempted murder, after no past cases of murder, this is a tremendous loss for the justice system.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2005, 07:55:31 am »
Whilst we can all agree this is a terrible crime, when punishing someone I believe it is more important to focus of the motivations and circumstances of the person committing the crime than the crime itself.

Killing a baby in front of many witnesses is an irrational act that can only harm the interests of the perpetrator. The best case scenario for the perpetrator is that he will be locked up and the worst case scenario is that he will be executed. Therefore you don't need to be a psychiatrist to conclude that the man is insane.

Bones, you seem to be drawing a false distinction between a man who is insane for a known reason and someone who is insane for an unknown reason. We don't know why certain people go off the rails. It may be a virus, a blow to the head, a minor stroke, chemicals in the environment, genetics etc. In many cases we simply don't know and it would be presumptuous to assume that these people are a breed apart from the rest of us and that we couldn't in the right set of circumstances find ourselves in the same mental state.

I see no purpose in punishing people who are insane although I would totally agree that such people need to be locked up for society's protection. In any case the number of people who commit these extreme crimes are so small that throwing the book at them is not going to change the big picture, although it might make a certain type of person feel better.

I feel more punitive towards those individuals who commit (generally lesser) crimes out of self-interest. Such individuals may be selfish, antisocial etc but at least they are rational and are therefore more likely to respond to a deterrent.

For once I find myself in total agreement with Drew. There is no cut-off point (to me) when a human being deserves to be punished with death.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2005, 09:50:30 am »
I AM in favor of high-rise prisons, as the idiots who seem to design them in my area can't come up with anything that doesn't swallow up a thousand acres on which is planted, at best, a 3 story building.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2005, 09:57:41 am »
I don't want any of you with the power to throw that switch, in however small a way you have that power.  Stingray alone would see what happens if it were thrown "for just a second....just to see what happens".


Come on man, where's your sense of adventure? I promise that I'll turn the power right back off again. Don't be such a sissy. ;)

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2005, 10:21:58 am »
I AM in favor of high-rise prisons, as the idiots who seem to design them in my area can't come up with anything that doesn't swallow up a thousand acres on which is planted, at best, a 3 story building.  2 stories if it's a large facility.  Go underground as well.  Might as well save on heating and cooling bills and use the earth to save us money there.
Theres ways around it, Like 3 emergency waterslide exits on every level.

Can't be done, Drew.  It's not possible to evacuate a 9 story prison in the case of a fire or similar emergency.  Not with any type of order or without rioting.  It's ironic, really, that we have to protect the prisoners from themselves, but there we are.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2005, 09:32:15 pm »
Ok, so even if the baby's life was saved, the man still deserves death under the law?

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2005, 11:10:30 pm »
The few things I would add to that are:

1) There are ZERO repeat offenders under that program.

2) If we are not housing the murderers, rapists, etc... we can use the existing funds/space to lock up people that may be rehabilitated (drug dealers, armed robbers, etc...) after they serve a decent sentence.
If someone actually gets 15 years for auto theft, they will definitely think twice before doing it again.
Further, their buddy (who sees them get 15 years) will definitely think about the future of his chosen line of work.

3) Why is it that the people screaming loudest for "tolerance" of their chosen lifestyle are the LEAST tolerant of the views of others?

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2005, 01:19:53 am »
He stabbed a baby, F  Him!

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2005, 01:42:54 am »
It ain't just a matter of what a person deserves.  The government's job isn't to make sure everybody gets what they deserve.  Maybe Paul Giamatti and Jim Carrey deserve Oscars.  I wouldn't even think twice about a bystander putting that guy out of your misery.  Of course, this kind of behavior can't be officially sanctioned, but I wouldn't put the feer of god in me. 

I'm just not about to say to my government, "In extreme cases you can put me to death.  Oh, by the way, you get to define extreme.  Oh yeah, and the chances of my being put to death will vary directly with my personal wealth as well as the shade of my skin."

It's just too simplistic to say, "A guy who kills babies is evil.  He deserves to die."  It's like saying, "Cake is good.  You should eat it."  When there are other considerations.  Maybe you're a lard ass.  Maybe you're diabetic.  Maybe one in five cakes has lots of arsenic in it.

The guy DOES deserve to die, but the effects/consequences of giving your government the right to kill it's citizens at its pleasure don't end with his breath. 
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2005, 01:58:43 am »
The few things I would add to that are:

1) There are ZERO repeat offenders under that program.

2) If we are not housing the murderers, rapists, etc... we can use the existing funds/space to lock up people that may be rehabilitated (drug dealers, armed robbers, etc...) after they serve a decent sentence.
If someone actually gets 15 years for auto theft, they will definitely think twice before doing it again.
Further, their buddy (who sees them get 15 years) will definitely think about the future of his chosen line of work.

3) Why is it that the people screaming loudest for "tolerance" of their chosen lifestyle are the LEAST tolerant of the views of others?

1- If we just put people to death for all felonies there would be zero repeat offendors for any of them  Grand theft, credit card fraud, drug dealing, etc.

2- If we're not housing the drug dealers and armed robbers we could use the money for...anything.

3- What in the name of god are you talking about?


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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2005, 02:45:35 am »
I get the feeling your becoming a little frustrated shmokes. like I can't see the bigger picture or something and that's OK.

Perhaps it is not the governments job, perhaps a standard of crimes need to be re-defined via a wide cross section of the community. Afterall, the law exists only to serve the people.

I know you have an interest in law and I assume it has the potential of being a passion seeing as though you are contemplating going back to school to become qualified. But consider this....

Perhaps the whole system is wrong. Perhaps to many lawyers got rich and to many clients became famous. Perhaps the real definition of right and wrong became clouded due to 200 years of smoke screens, case studies or scandals.

Some crimes, and I emphasise some, should not need to be trialed in the traditional manner. They shouldn't even see a court room. Video footage of a man raping a child (and yep, the sickos do tape themselves), should instantly wave all rights the offender has. We don't need to talk to him or hear from his 3rd class teacher. We shouldn't care if the actions can be justified because they can't.

The process needs to be simplified and once it is simplified standard punishments for offences can be dictated by the people, or the government, or by me.

To simple? Hell yes, also effective, financially viable and a massive deterant.

Heartless? Yep. Don't rape a child and you won't be killed. That's not much to ask.

I use the child sex example because it should strike an emotion, it should be disturbing, I used this to my advantage and I am aware of this.

My idea will never happen. It would be considered outrageous or disturbing, people would think I am sick and I would be the one who is locked up. And now my point can be realised.

People have forgotten what evil is. We hear it every day on our radios or read about it on the net. We have become desensitized. If the baby thread did not exist then this is the type of story you hear and forget about in a couple of days.

Horrible stories like this have become common and so has our tolerance towards them. If the law had branched in a different direct 100 years ago where a child rapist was executed, the very thought of such an offender not being killed would strike at our beliefs.

Unlearn what you have learned and humour the thought if only for a few seconds.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2005, 03:00:14 am by BrokenBones »

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2005, 05:06:35 am »
I AM in favor of high-rise prisons, as the idiots who seem to design them in my area can't come up with anything that doesn't swallow up a thousand acres on which is planted, at best, a 3 story building.  2 stories if it's a large facility.  Go underground as well.  Might as well save on heating and cooling bills and use the earth to save us money there.


Can't be done, Drew.  It's not possible to evacuate a 9 story prison in the case of a fire or similar emergency.  Not with any type of order or without rioting.  It's ironic, really, that we have to protect the prisoners from themselves, but there we are.

And that is a bad thing in what way?

Make the whole prison brick and stone and it can't burn down.

If I had my way then prisons would only have murderers in them. For other crimes first offense = short jail time (variable by crime), and a warning. 2nd offense gets you a dozen ID tattoos, and then deportation to the African nation of the judge's choice. Being caught in America after being deported gets you tossed in prison with the murderers, for life.

As for deportation method? Booted out of the airplane with a parachute!

The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2005, 05:18:01 am »
The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.
No way man. All those villagers with their breasts out, damn I wanna commit a crime just thinking about them.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2005, 05:45:49 am »
The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.
No way man. All those villagers with their breasts out, damn I wanna commit a crime just thinking about them.

I'm sure the villagers will be more than equipped to deal with any crimes that might be committed by the new immigrants.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2005, 06:32:27 am »
You may have misunderstood. I am thinking about committing a crime so I will be sent there for a good National Geographic perve.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2005, 08:38:48 am »
As for deportation method? Booted out of the airplane with a parachute!

The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.

You know what happens when a nation takes up the deport the criminals to a remote location policy?

Australia.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2005, 09:39:03 am »
I wouldn't even think twice about a bystander putting that guy out of your misery.  Of course, this kind of behavior can't be officially sanctioned, but I wouldn't put the feer of god in me.

It can't be MANDATED.
It can be sanctioned, commended, and expected however.

People tend to mistake civility for pacifism.
A CIVIL society does what is necessary to maintain that civility, but does so by due process.

Stopping atrocities such as this is the responsibility of the individual witnessing the act--by whatever means necessary.
Removing the person temporarily from society is the job of the Police force in that jursidiction.
Removing the non-civil individual permanently from society is the job of society itself.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2005, 10:19:28 am »
I agree with everything Bones has to say about the death penalty and bare breasted natives.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2005, 10:42:38 am »

If I had my way then prisons would only have murderers in them. For other crimes first offense = short jail time (variable by crime), and a warning. 2nd offense gets you a dozen ID tattoos, and then deportation to the African nation of the judge's choice. Being caught in America after being deported gets you tossed in prison with the murderers, for life.

As for deportation method? Booted out of the airplane with a parachute!

The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.

Ummm, OK nice idea in theory but don't you think the Ethiopians might have an issue with American criminals being dumped on them?

I mean the Australian aborigines were just thrilled to get all those British criminals on their doorstep weren't they.  ;D

And I don't think many Americans were pleased when Castro dumped his criminals on Florida.
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2005, 11:05:24 am »

So send ours to Cuba.  Tell them we will stop when they become a democracy.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2005, 01:17:01 pm »

Some crimes, and I emphasise some, should not need to be trialed in the traditional manner. They shouldn't even see a court room. Video footage of a man raping a child (and yep, the sickos do tape themselves), should instantly wave all rights the offender has. We don't need to talk to him or hear from his 3rd class teacher. We shouldn't care if the actions can be justified because they can't.


The court does more than assess the guilt of the perpetrator.  I'm not especially familiar with the structure of government down under, but here we have a thing called the separation of powers, which divides our government fundamentally into three branches, legislative, executive and judicial.  The legislatve branch makes the laws, executive branch enforces the law, and the judicial branch interprets the law. 

One of the most important reasons of putting someone on trial is simply so you don't get too much power accumulated in one group of people.  If the police have the powers of both the executive and the judicial branches there is a great deal of room for corruption.  As it stands, if a cop plants evidence, at least a person can try to prove that the evidence was planted when the case is moved out of the executive branch into the judicial branch.  Who, exactly, is the alleged child rapist supposed to make his case to that the footage of him was fabricated?  The police officer who fabricated it?  Have you seen Lord of the Rings?  Have you seen The Matrix?  Video footage can be forged.  Don't you think that someone facing the death penalty ought to be able to have an expert inspect the tape to make sure that it hasn't been digitally altered?  Think about it...ten years ago you would have considered photographs every bit as damning and look what a regular Joe can do with photoshop right in his home on a $500 PC.




Too simple? Hell yes, also effective, financially viable and a massive deterant.


Effective at what?  Spend five or ten minutes with google and have a look at the evidence.  I know that it is intuitively appealing to think that it would be a deterrent, because you imagine yourself considering doing something for which the punishment would be death and thinking, "No ---smurfing--- way!"  But you would also have been deterred by the threat of many other, less severe punishments.  The death penalty is NOT a deterrant.  People who would not be deterred by a life sentence would also not deterred by the death penalty or any punishment.  In fact, there is evidence that suggests that criminals who believe they will face the death penalty are more likley to use violence or murder to avoid capture, and that therefore the death penalty might even increase the rate of violent crime.  One thing for near certain, it does not decrease the rate.  U.S. states that have implemented the death penalty recently have not had a reduction of violent crime.  Hell, look at Canada's statistics:

The abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976 has not led to increased homicide rates. Statistics Canada reports that the number of homicides in Canada in 2001 (554) was 23% lower than the number of homicides in 1975 (721), the year before the death penalty was abolished. In addition, homicide rates in Canada are generally three times lower than homicide rates in the U.S., which uses the death penalty. For example, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the homicide rate in the U.S. in 1999 was 5.7 per 100,000 population and the rate in Canada was only 1.8. Canada currently sentences those convicted of murder to life sentences with parole eligibility. (Issues Direct.com, 8/4/02).

Could there be other reasons?  Sure.  Maybe Canada's economic situation has greatly improved in the same time period.  I don't know.  But the evidence is still pretty compelling.  It's at least worthy of asking yourself if maybe you're priorities about society and government aren't mixed up.  Maybe the pros of the death penalty are that they make you feel vidicated.  They make you feel like that that person got his/her just desserts, and you are a big fan of "fair".  Maybe it's your emotions, when thinking about horrific things like child rape, that allow your mind to gloss over the evidence that the death penalty does not decrease the chance that similar atrocities will recur in your society and, in all likelihood increases the chances.

Would you like australia to implement capital punishment so that you could have a relatively violent-crime-free nation like the good 'ol U S of A?  What if the combination of socializing the populace from an early age to believe that killing is an appropriat solution in some cases, and what I said above about motivating killing to avoid capture are justified purely on the deterrence argument, but then you find that there is no deterrent factor?  You get all of the bad with none of the good.

God...I am getting worked up over this.   
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2005, 04:19:39 pm »

If I had my way then prisons would only have murderers in them. For other crimes first offense = short jail time (variable by crime), and a warning. 2nd offense gets you a dozen ID tattoos, and then deportation to the African nation of the judge's choice. Being caught in America after being deported gets you tossed in prison with the murderers, for life.

As for deportation method? Booted out of the airplane with a parachute!

The program would be cheap, and highly effective. I personally think be dropped off penniless in Ethiopia is a larger deterrent to crime than prison ever would be.

Ummm, OK nice idea in theory but don't you think the Ethiopians might have an issue with American criminals being dumped on them?

I mean the Australian aborigines were just thrilled to get all those British criminals on their doorstep weren't they.  ;D

And I don't think many Americans were pleased when Castro dumped his criminals on Florida.

Well, what could they possibly do about it?  ;D
Really, what could they do?
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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2005, 04:41:02 pm »

Well, they'd have problems protecting their babies from babystabbers, that is for sure.

I say, send people to places appropriate for their crimes.

What would a thief do in Ethiopia?


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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2005, 04:43:19 pm »
One thing for near certain, it does not decrease the rate.  U.S. states that have implemented the death penalty recently have not had a reduction of violent crime.

Would New York qualify for this?
They implemented it in 1995, which I think is the MOST recent implementation.

Their murder rates per 100,000 people are as follows:

PRE Death Penalty
1990 - 14.5
1991 - 14.2
1992 - 13.2
1993 - 13.3
1994 - 11.1
1995 - 8.5

POST Death Penalty
1996 - 7.4
1997 - 6.0
1998 - 5.1
1999 - 5.0
2000 - 5.0
2001 - 5.0
2002 - 4.7
2003 - 4.9

Looks pretty much like they went down to me.
How about you?

Looks like a 66% DROP in murder to me, as a matter of fact.
That's almost 300% as much as the drop you cite for taking it away in Canada, and in only 50% of the time it took you guys.

That means that the drop/year was 600% as much as you cite for Canada.
Sounds like a pretty convincing argument for the death penalty to me.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2005, 04:44:29 pm »

The death penalty is pretty good at eliminating chronic offenders.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2005, 05:03:22 pm »
Chad's right.  Dead killers don't kill again.

Shmokes is right.  You can't be sure, and it doesn't seem to deter others from the emotional crime of murder.

I don't like the death penalty either based on all the innocent people that have been cleared with DNA evidence.

I'm kinda on the Bill O'Reilley bandwagon.  If you are a murder then you have to go to Alaska and live in the dark or do very hard time.

It irks me sometimes to see people who can't defend themselves in these situations.  A "real" murder trial takes like 4 days max.  The OJ trial took months.  I think we all have examples of people believed to be the one and only culprit, only for it to be found he wasn't the one at all.  That is frightning. 

I guess I also have the belief that if the crime is so horrendous and blatant, like this thread is about, there has to be clear and objective evidence that this person is the only person that could be at fault, bar none.

I guess that evidence would be that the person was not only identified by witnesses, DNA evidence, and photographed.  The bar has to be high. 

But in such cases it wouldn't be equal to other murders if the evidence wasn't there for them.  So I have to err on the side of don't kill 'em.

As far as these statistics, there was a lot more things going on than this one event in both New York and Canada to account for this "relationship".  Might be that they already killed all those that needed killin' or something.   ;)

And a question Shmokes, what exactly does deter people from Killing each other?  What has to be done if it's not to invoke the death penalty?  What is the solution or is there one?



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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2005, 05:04:57 pm »

Yay, fredster brings the argument full circle to gun control!

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2005, 05:16:44 pm »
One thing for near certain, it does not decrease the rate.  U.S. states that have implemented the death penalty recently have not had a reduction of violent crime.

Would New York qualify for this?
They implemented it in 1995, which I think is the MOST recent implementation.

Their murder rates per 100,000 people are as follows:

PRE Death Penalty
1990 - 14.5
1991 - 14.2
1992 - 13.2
1993 - 13.3
1994 - 11.1
1995 - 8.5

POST Death Penalty
1996 - 7.4
1997 - 6.0
1998 - 5.1
1999 - 5.0
2000 - 5.0
2001 - 5.0
2002 - 4.7
2003 - 4.9

Looks pretty much like they went down to me.
How about you?

Looks like a 66% DROP in murder to me, as a matter of fact.
That's almost 300% as much as the drop you cite for taking it away in Canada, and in only 50% of the time it took you guys.

That means that the drop/year was 600% as much as you cite for Canada.
Sounds like a pretty convincing argument for the death penalty to me.

Two problems with those statistics.

Firstly the trend was already downwards and the decrease from 95 to 96 doesn't appear to buck the trend.

Secondly, IIRC the mayor of New York introduced various (apparently successful) changes to the way the city was policed. I don't remember the details but I believe that was when the term 'zero tolerance' was first used.

I believe that rates for all crimes in New York (not just murder) went down over the same period. But I could be wrong.

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Re: I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2005, 05:35:58 pm »
If there are no guns, does the goverment have the responsiblity of protecting you from people that would do you harm? 
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