I've seen some random and cruel stuff, but...

[SOAPboy]

Bernard Derr, 48, a man with a history of psychiatric problems, was taken into custody a short time after the attack and held on attempted murder and other charges, police said.

But he has a history of psychiatric problems so lets make sure to coddle him and then get him back on the street as soon as possible so he can stab some more babies.

If the cops were allowed to do their job correctly, this piece of garbage would be at the bottom of a river by now.

-S

It isn't the job of the police to be judge, jury and executioner. Or at least it isn't in the USA. Move to Iran if you think that is how the police should act.

Be careful, thoughts like that will land you in a world of hurt once I'm made Emperor of the Cosmos.

Pardon the hell out of me for being disgusted at a baby stabber.

-S

I'm not defending the guy. He should be put away forever. He probably isn't eligable for the death penalty anywhere in the US unless the baby dies.

I just think that you probably aren't thinking of the implications of having a state where the police have ultimate power to execute people without due process.

He shouldnt be put away forever

He should be shot on sight..

[shmokes]

Agreed, if by on sight you mean that the police saw him in the act of stabbing the baby. 

On the other hand, if you mean that the police come and the nanny describes the perpetrator and the direction he left in, and they in turn head off in that direction until they find someone who meets his description, well...you're dumb.

[Dartful Dodger]

Oh yeah thats right; we dont want glass in the oil

[Bones]

The guy is mentally ill. This is fact. Normal healthy people don't walk around stabbing random babies.

Society would be better if people who do such things were shot in the head immediately after confirmation they performed such acts.

I can't stand it when such people are defended. Some snotface mouthpiece in a new suit and with high hopes for that new work promotion will show the jury x-rays of the sick F***'s brain and explain how he was touched as a child and give all sorts of arguments and explanations as to why he isn't responsible for his actions.

It's not about revenge or punishment or making the loony suffer in pain for his atrocious actions, its about cleansing our society of this genetic garbage and making a better world for our babies that don't have a knife impaled in their chest.

Ohhh yeah, he stabbed a baby....F him.

[shmokes]

First, we're talking about two different things.  The initial call was for police officers to be given the discretionary authority to perform this genetic cleansing.

Second, killing this guy as opposed to locking him up does nothing to make society any safer or make future generations less succeptible to similar mental illness.  You can argue that he's not worth the drag on the economy he becomes once he becomes a guest of the maximum security mental facilities, but people in prison/mental hospitals don't reproduce and they don't stab babies.

For me, part of my implied contract with the government is their promise to take care of me if they deem it necessary to take away my ability to work and take care of myself.  For the greater good of society as well as my own welfare, I grant my government the authority to take me into custody if I am deemed a danger to others.  I'm willing to potentially give up my liberty because of the benefit I get from it (all the other wacko's who lose their liberty to make me safer).  I don't want the government to have the authority to take my life from me except under the most extreme circumstances (as in, I am about to fire a gun at somebody and my life must be taken to keep me from taking someone else's, etc.).  In exchange for conceding some of my liberty to the government I expect that if they do put me in a cage that they will keep me reasonably well fed and warm, maybe provide me with some books and some work to do.

I know that this is all implied stuff.  and that the government doesn't personally sign a contract with each citizen.  But this is how I understand it.  Society gets a lot of benefits from having authority to incarcerate its citizens.  There's no harm in paying a price for those benefits.

[Shape D.]

But dude, He stabs babies.

[SOAPboy]

Agreed, if by on sight you mean that the police saw him in the act of stabbing the baby.

[SOAPboy]

But dude, He stabs babies.

Yeah that

[shmokes]

Maybe they will.  Does NY have the death penalty?  I doubt they'll use a firing squad, and definitely not a yard arm, but...

[DrewKaree]

I will never befriend or continue being friends with someone who stabs babies.  Eff that whole "another chance" thing to allow them to hang out with me.  I've got way too many non-baby-stabber friends, so I don't need to hang around with baby-stabbers.  Eff them.

[ChadTower]

You can rationalize your empathy for babystabbers all you want. 

He stabbed a baby.  F him.

[Dartful Dodger]

F babby-stabbers and hotdog-ketchupers.

[Bones]

So at heart of your comments shmokes, the baby stabber deserves to be institutionalised for the duration of his life because he has rights as a human?

We are not talking about a desperate man who walks into a gaz'n'guzzle with a gun out of desperation because he is about to loose his house to the bank. We are talking about a savage in human disguise.

Savages don't deserve rights. Savages don't deserve to be institutionalised only to be potentially released after 20 years with a rubber stamp on their paperwork that says "reformed" or "sane".

I feel there are certain crimes that void any contract with the government and this type of crime is one of them.

If you don't want to kill them with a bullet because it goes against your moral outlook or loyalty to your constitution then I am also in favour of forced removal of their organs until they can no longer function and die. At least then the death of one violent fruitloop can be offset against the lives they save and ultimately give their death purpose.

[markrvp]

So at heart of your comments shmokes, the baby stabber deserves to be institutionalised for the duration of his life because he has rights as a human?

We are not talking about a desperate man who walks into a gaz'n'guzzle with a gun out of desperation because he is about to loose his house to the bank. We are talking about a savage in human disguise.

Savages don't deserve rights. Savages don't deserve to be institutionalised only to be potentially released after 20 years with a rubber stamp on their paperwork that says "reformed" or "sane".

I feel there are certain crimes that void any contract with the government and this type of crime is one of them.

If you don't want to kill them with a bullet because it goes against your moral outlook or loyalty to your constitution then I am also in favour of forced removal of their organs until they can no longer function and die. At least then the death of one violent fruitloop can be offset against the lives they save and ultimately give their death purpose.

Yeah, F that F'er.

[Grasshopper]

I think some of the scarily over the top comments in this thread illustrate why it's such a good thing that we have courts, a criminal justice system, due process, presumption of innocence etc. instead of mob rule.

[Bones]

I think some of the scarily over the top comments in this thread illustrate why it's such a good thing that we have courts, a criminal justice system, due process, presumption of innocence etc. instead of mob rule.

I am not suggesting the cops be judge and executioner or advertising any dissolving of the need for the justice system to review the facts.

I just believe that the executioner should be one of the involved parties under such aggressive and socially unacceptable crimes.

[ChadTower]

He stabbed a baby.  F him.

[SOAPboy]

I think some of the scarily over the top comments in this thread illustrate why it's such a good thing that we have courts, a criminal justice system, due process, presumption of innocence etc. instead of mob rule.

Did you ever stop to think why were like this in this thread about this subject?

He stabbed a baby.  F him.

Please read that again Grasshopper.. He stabbed A F'ING BABY!

[shmokes]

If you don't want to kill them with a bullet because it goes against your moral outlook or loyalty to your constitution then I am also in favour of forced removal of their organs until they can no longer function and die. At least then the death of one violent fruitloop can be offset against the lives they save and ultimately give their death purpose.

Heh...that's an interesting thought.  It beats the hell out of lethal injection or the electric chair.

Anyway, yeah.  I think that giving your government permission to kill you if they think you deserve to die is insane.  The thing that kills me is that it's all you wacko conservatives who supposedly have the LEAST amount of faith in the ability of the covernment to do any kind of job correctly that want to hand this absurd power to them.  They bungle it ALL THE TIME.  There have been something like 30 death row inmates RELEASED from prison since DNA testing became available.  And it's not like they went through and revisted all of the evidence of everyone on death row in the nation.  You have no right to any kind of ongoing investigation after conviction and the vast majority of requests are denied outright.  Still, I'm not talking about the number of people exhonorated and released from prison...I'm talking about the number who were released with an apology, often after spending upwards of 20 years of their life on death row, who were scheduled to be put to death, were released.  100% free.  Completely innocent.  In 1999 a guy who had been pleading for years to have DNA testing done on his evidence (rape/murder....there was semen), saying, "Why would I be asking you to do a test if it would only prove that I was guilty?" was put to death.  The state (West Virginia, I think) repeatedly denied his requests at the urging of the DA's office.  After he was put to death his wife and church put in another request to have the evidence tested to at least clear his name for his wife and children.  The DA's office argued that if the test went in their favor people would, "be shouting from the rooftops that the state of West Virginia put an innocent man to death," (notice the quotation marks).  The judge denied the request for a DNA test, and granted the DA's request to have all the evidence incinerated.  This was barely five years ago.

And, frankly, it doesn't seem to do any damn good.  America has about the highest crime rate of the industrialized world (and we're one of the only countries in the industrialized world that still has a death penalty).  The death penalty does not appear to act as any kind of deterrent.  States within America that use the death penalty do not have lower crime rates than states that do not.  In fact, I believe they tend to have significantly higher crime rates, but I could be wrong there.  Maybe......MAYBE I would agree with you if we could go back in time and carry out the death penalty before the crime took place.  But the death penalty doesn't make us any safer than incarceration.  It doesn't cost any less than incarceration.  And it doesn't bring back to life someone that was murdered or erase a rape. 

[Grasshopper]

I think some of the scarily over the top comments in this thread illustrate why it's such a good thing that we have courts, a criminal justice system, due process, presumption of innocence etc. instead of mob rule.

I am not suggesting the cops be judge and executioner or advertising any dissolving of the need for the justice system to review the facts.

I just believe that the executioner should be one of the involved parties under such aggressive and socially unacceptable crimes.

Yes but the point is the man is almost certainly insane.

Let me ask you a question. Supposing you were forcibly injected with drugs which caused you to become temporarily psychotic. Then under the influence of the drugs you did something totally outrageous and morally unacceptable such as killing a baby. Would you then think it is reasonable for you to be executed for this crime? Maybe you think the answer is yes but I think it is no.

The reason I bring up this hypothetical scenario is because it is not dissimilar to the situation that an insane person is in. Their brain chemistry is disturbed through no fault of their own and for that reason they are not considered legally responsible for their actions.

Of course they still need to be locked up to protect the public and it is true that too many of them are let out when they are still dangerous. But in a civilised society revenge and emotion should be taken out of the equation.

[Bones]

Under such a situation I have confidence that the justice system would reflect upon the facts and not execute a person under these circumstances.

[markrvp]

This thread reminds me of the "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" episode of South Park where people from the future came back and took away jobs.

Not that this is of similar importance, it was just that everyone kept saying, "they took our jobs" kind of like . . .


. . . He stabbed a baby, F him.

[Grasshopper]

Under such a situation I have confidence that the justice system would reflect upon the facts and not execute a person under these circumstances.

Are you talking about the person who is insane because drugs have disturbed his brain chemistry, or the person who is insane because his brain chemistry is disturbed for some other reason?

[shmokes]

Under such a situation I have confidence that the justice system would reflect upon the facts and not execute a person under these circumstances.

Just out of curiosity, your confidence in our justice system doesn't stem from the stories I told in my last post does it?  Cos that don't make no sense.

[pointdablame]

This thread got too long for me to read.  All I know is:


F' That guy... he stabbed a baby.

[Bones]

Are you talking about the person who is insane because drugs have disturbed his brain chemistry, or the person who is insane because his brain chemistry is disturbed for some other reason?

In this example I was referring to the poor bugger who was abducted and had crazy juice squirted into his body, this was not his choice and if such a thing happened this person deserves the utmost compassion from the legal system.

Everything we do or feel, love, hate, anger, aggression, respire, these are all the result of chemical reactions. We are chemical beings. Why a person stabs a baby may well (and will most likely), be reasoned by a chemical inbalance. To say it is not their fault does not excuse these acts or make our communities a better place. I am sure Hitler had a chemical inbalance but it does not excuse his actions.

I love blonde woman which large norks, that's just the way I am. I am sure a neurologist given enough data could reason as to why I feel this way. Understanding that I adore blonde woman with large funbags does nothing to curve my fascination of blonde woman with unnaturally large breasts and understanding why a person stabs a baby doesn't stop or excuse such craziness.

Under such a situation I have confidence that the justice system would reflect upon the facts and not execute a person under these circumstances.

Just out of curiosity, your confidence in our justice system doesn't stem from the stories I told in my last post does it? Cos that don't make no sense.

To me these are just stories (but I am sure they are true). I have no doubt that innocent people are jailed and executed through errors of justice and of course it is extremely sad that this happens.

My only hope is that in the big scheme of things, and with the amount of traffic the legal system must deal with, that these are cases of extreme minority. In short I must put my faith in something and it has to be our legal system for there is no alternative. I am not saying this is ideal because it is not and you have pointed out very well some of the obvious problems, but you have to use the tools you have.

[shmokes]

My only hope is that...these are cases of extreme minority.

Well, in a way, they are.  For example a black person who kills a white person is more than three times more likely to be sentenced to death in America compared to a white person who kills a black person.  That ain't no isolated incident.   And I don't mean that there are three times as many black people put to death for killing white people as vice versa.  I'm talking about the odds of being sentenced to death based on race, once the deed is already done.  We just can't be trusted to deal out that kind of punishment, IMO.  It serves no purpose and there's no way to try to make amends.  As much as it would suck to be imprisoned for 20 years when you were innocent of the crime for which you were convicted, at least you can get back a portion of your life and the state can give you an "I'm sorry" lump sum of cash.  Giving someone back their life when you realize you messed up is a little trickier.


p.s.  Lose norks.  That one's just trying too hard and doesn't work at all.

[shmokes]

Actually I just looked it up.  Since 1974 114 men and women on death row have been exonerated and released (though only 14 due to DNA testing).  Keep in mind that those are just the ones who managed, from behind bars, after conviction by a unanimous jury (even states that don't require a unanimous verdict to convict, require it for the death penalty), to prove their innocence.  If there were 114 people exhonorated, how many do you think were actually wrongfully convicted?  Do you think 1 in 3 people managed to prove their innocence post-conviction?  1 in 10?

100 people in 30 years!  That's more than 3 people per year that are sentenced to death and later exonerated.  That's just the ones that manage to get off before the needle goes in.  The total number of innocent people that get sentenced to death including the ones that are actually wrongfully put to death is, of course, higher than that.  Probably much higher.  How the hell many would it take for you to question whether this was maybe not such a good idea?

We're ---auto-censored---ing crazy over here.  In 1998 only China and the Congo executed more people than the U.S.   In the whole world!  And considering the number of people in China that one might not mean as much as one might think.  Since 1990 there are only seven countries in the entire world that allow the execution of Juveniles:

Iran
Democratic Republic of Congo
Nigeria
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
United States


I know that you're on the other side of the planet, so maybe this stuff doesn't concern you so much, but this is the society that I live in and the only context I can speak intelligently from.  The death penalty does nothing to curb our outrageous crime and murder rate.

Anyway....whatever, I guess.

[Bones]

All good data mate and I honestly don't know what the answer is. I am a simple Aussie who hears about a baby being stabbed and I just feel the person who did this deserves to die. I see no other option.

I will however be the first to acknowledge that because we don't have the death penalty here or the debate that accompanies wrongful executions, my thoughts are very much in their infancy.

One thing is for certain, being a father I know if anybody did this to my child I would tear them apart without mercy or fear of repercussion. It would be a reaction as natural as blinking.

[shmokes]

All good data mate and I honestly don't know what the answer is. I am a simple Aussie who hears about a baby being stabbed and I just feel the person who did this deserves to die. I see no other option.

I will however be the first to acknowledge that because we don't have the death penalty here or the debate that accompanies wrongful executions, my thoughts are very much in their infancy.

One thing is for certain, being a father I know if anybody did this to my child I would tear them apart without mercy or fear of repercussion. It would be a reaction as natural as blinking.

I agree 100% and I'm not even a father yet.  I also agree that he deserves to die.  I believe that he deserves to have his finglernails and toenails ripped off with pliers and stabbed into his eyes. 

But what he deserves, and the prudence of giving your government the power to take its citizens lives are two different things.  Heroin dealers deserve to get caught.  Allowing your police to eavesdrop on phone calls or go through your mail or enter your house and search it any time they want without a warrant would certainly make it much easier for police to catch heroin dealers.

And actually, that's not even the best example because at least that would probably reduce the number of heroin dealers on the street.  The death penalty has no such societal benefits.  The only thing it does it make people watching the 10:00 news feel vindicated.  It doesn't make the parents who lost the child feel that loss any less vividly.

[Bones]

p.s.

[ChadTower]

None of this argument changes the fact that he stabbed a baby.  F him.

[markrvp]

Yeah, he stabbed a baby;   F   Him.

[Goz]

The man needs his huevos cooked with multiple cell phones.  Then served on a platter. 

-Goz

[Stingray]

The initial call was for police officers to be given the discretionary authority to perform this genetic cleansing.

Shmokes- Yesterday I posted a clarification that you must not have read. I made that statement out of shock that some sick f'er stabbed a baby. I do not think that the police should have "discretionary authority to perform genetic cleansing". I do think that this particular sack of feces should be put to death. If not by throwing in the river, firing squad, or forced disembowlment, then lethal injection will do nearly as well. Baby stabbers have no place in society. I have no interest in feeding him for the rest of his life, despite the fact that the rest of his life will probably not be very long. I can't imagine that maximum security prison inmates like baby stabbers much more than I do.

-S

[ChadTower]

I stabbed a baby once.  I stabbed that baby real good.

I stabbed it with a bottle full of formula, right in the mouth.  Kept that bottle in the mouth until the baby was fed.

I stabbed that baby.

[Goz]

I stabbed a baby once.  I stabbed that baby real good.

I stabbed it with a bottle full of formula, right in the mouth.  Kept that bottle in the mouth until the baby was fed.

I stabbed that baby.

Sounds like a RAP song... through in a couple of F the man, and Baby's Daddy lines and you got a hit. 

[Stingray]

Toss in a F the po-lice too.

-S

[ChadTower]

Someone had to feed that baby, that babymama was out gettin my money.

[shmokes]

Yesterday I posted a clarification that you must not have read.

I read your clarification, but you're not the only one in the thread who called for expanded police powers.  I think Shape D and Soapboy both called for it after your clarification.

But anyway about 5% of my response to BrokenBones dealt with the call for discretionary authority, etc.  The rest of it  was all about the death penalty.  The discussion about giving police executioner powers is worth touching on just to try to intill a healthy dose of distrust of authority into people, but it doesn't have a lot of practical use, seeing as there isn't much chance we would actually be stupid enough to give our police that kind of authority (I hope, anyway). 

I think the death penalty discussion is a lot more relevant, simply because our government is offing it's citizens like it was going out of style and it's worth looking at why we differ from the rest of the "civilized" world in this respect and whether it actually does any good.