Katrina Thread / New Orleans

[markrvp]

I honestly feel awful for the people stuck in New Orleans.  My mother-in-law's house in Pass Christian, Missippi was destroyed and she will probably be staying at our house for awhile.


One thing that is not being talked about, but is the underlying problem here:

There is nowhere currently ready for all these now homeless people to go.  The people being bumped up in evacuation are tourists who actually have homes to go back to.

Think about it - where could you just dump 150,000 people right this second and guarantee their food, medical, and security needs?  That's the issue.  There is nowhere to go.  And, the government is also concerned about outlying areas (like Baton Rouge) which have already swelled past their capacity with evacuees.  Very soon this may reach a quarantine situation and the people cannot be allowed to leave unsupervised to insure the safety of other US citizens. 

This is a bad deal, no doubt, but it IS NOT A RACIST SCHEME TO TORTURE BLACK PEOPLE.  I'm really tired of seeing that angle being promoted by the news networks and Jesse Jackson.

[JCL]

I honestly feel awful for the people stuck in New Orleans.

[markrvp]

I disagree.  If someone has somewhere to go, why would you force them to wait until a place was found for everybody who had no place to go?  When did common sense become classist/racist?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

This is a bad deal, no doubt, but it IS NOT A RACIST SCHEME TO TORTURE BLACK PEOPLE. I'm really tired of seeing that angle being promoted by the news networks and Jesse Jackson.

If you don't racism and/or classism hasn't, or won't, come into play in this disaster, or didn't have anything to do with the amount of people left to face the hurricane...then you are naive. These issues should not detract from the rescue and relief efforts in any way, but they should also not be buried under the rug. There are a few examples of this horrid aspect of American culture, *possibly* coming into effect in this post-disaster situation. I can post more on this later.

George. W. Bush, president of the United States, in his televised press conference referred to New Orleans as "this part of the world"...as if it *isn't* inside the United States. Is this evidence of the tremendous disconnect between this weathy administration and the less fortunate of America?

The vast majority of those "left behind" to face the disaster did not have the funds to make their way out. The manditory evacuation order was given on Sunday, but greyhound buses, and all flights out of the airport were stopped on Saturday, from what I understand. There are reports from numerous local businessmen claiming that they had to drive by people who were begging for $20-$50 to fill their gas tanks so they could leave. A large portion of the population of New Orleans lives below the poverty line, most received checks from the government as assistance. Those checks come on the 1st of the month, this storm struck on the 28th, the end of the month. There were plenty of dynamics at work here, leading to the current horrific situation we have been witnessing the last few days.

On other point, it's important to note that at times like this, other aspects of the reality on the ground can be blown out of proportion. The initial reports of the "rampaging hordes" came all too quickly in the media, and were swallowed all too easily by most Americans watching. I think it important to be skeptical of ALL reports before they are confirmed from multiple sources. These hecticly breathless reports about roving bands of lawless "negroes" may or may not be true. I've seen footage of people stealing goods, other than those needed for survival, and I'm sure there are horrific instances of other acts of violence. However, I have yet to see ANY solid confirmation that it is happening at the scale that was initially being reported. Lots of people say they've "heard" of these lawless gangs, but for all the reporters flocking to the area, not one has been able to confirm. In addition, the initial reports of people "firing at helicopters", at this point, seems to be FALSE.

"Now it turns out that Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, has cast doubt on the report of the firing on the helicopter.  She said she had no such report.

"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft."

http://watchingthewatchers.org/story/2005/9/2/9350/92642

"It's probably good to keep in mind that the last two major disasters of this scale, the Galveston hurricane of 1900 (some 6,000 dead) and the late 1800s Johnstown, PA flood  (2,200 fatalities), both involved false reports of "minority" savagery, Blacks and Eastern Europeans supposedly rampaging and cutting off the fingers of the dead to get their rings. All or most of these stories, many reported in the respectable press of the time, are now believed to have been completely untrue or wildly exaggerated."

Now where does this penchant for villifying the "darkies" come from? Is it really at play here? At this point, I'm not sure. What I will say, however, is that we owe it to the people there to keep an open-mind and be prepared to treat them fairly, respectfully...and give them the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, I think it'll be increasingly important, moving forward, to continue to explore and discuss this very issue, racism/classism and how it might have come into play prior to, and during the Gulf Coast disaster.




mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

WATCH this video of Shepard Smith and Geraldo Rivera on FOX NEWS and tell me that there wasn't some hint of classism at work here:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/09/02.html#a4763

They were BOTH witnessing agents of the federal government REFUSE to allow people to leave the area surrounding the Convention Center, to seek shelter in neighboring areas which had electricity, food and water. Neighboring suburban areas.

Furthermore, at the Superdome,

"At one point Friday, the evacuation was interrupted briefly when school buses pulled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt Hotel could move to the head of the evacuation line

[markrvp]

Because the tourists had somewhere to go.   The tourists are not homeless, they are just stuck.  They have somewhere to be evacuated to.  The people still in New Orleans do not have a place waiting for them.  I live near Dallas, TX and our state has already taken thousands of evacuees from New Orleans, but our facilities have reached capacity.

I saw Geralado and Shepard Smith both last night.  Geraldo was trying to incite a riot at the Convention Center by encouraging the people there to get angrier.  He cried out, "let these people walk out of here!"  You act as if there were people from Etna standing over on the other side of the bridge begging for evacuees.  They weren't.  They are not in any shape to handle 30,000 people from the convention center.  Do you just want to put them in Wal-Mart?

You don't want to understand what should be common sense - there isn't anyplace for these people to go YET.  There will be, but it will take time.  It sucks, I agree, but that doesn't magically make 150,000 hotel rooms appear.  Just letting them walk across the bridge will make 30,000 homeless people on the other side of the bridge.  If there were a facility there to take them, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE THERE.

My mother-in-law is a 60-year-old white woman and the National Guard in Mississippi has refused her access to her property until Monday.  You don't hear about that on CNN or Fox News because that doesn't create racial controversy.  This disaster is bigger than 30,000 people in New Orleans.  I don't hear the congressional black caucus screaming about injustice to homeless white people on the gulf coast.  Is my mother-in-law less important because she is white?

You seem to be stating that only poor people deserve help and in-fact white middle class tourists should be punished because they are not poor or black.  That is racism/classism, just opposite of the kind you are railing against.  Why shouldn't all people be treated with the same urgency?

I notice that Fats Domino is out of New Orleans.  Why? - because he has somewhere to go.  Can you show any example of where people who actually have somewhere to go (not just crashing a nearby neighborhood) are being forcefully restrained?  I'm not seeing it.  Geraldo was screaming that the people needed to be removed from the convention center.  So today, they are air-lifted to the airport.  Guess what, now they are sitting at the airport.  Why?  Because they have nowhere to go yet.

This is not RACISM.  If it were RACISM then the government would have blown both I-10 briges and waved goodbye. 

[JCL]

I disagree.

[markrvp]

I disagree.

[JCL]

I disagree.

[JCL]

"This is not RACISM.  If it were RACISM then the government would have blown both I-10 briges and waved goodbye. "


That's a crazy statement. I'm not crying racism here, but many less bad things than the above would be racist.

If the policy was explicitly to help all white people, then help blacks, would that be racist?
By any reasonable definition (ie. NOT your's) of course it is.
 

[markrvp]

No, genius.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I notice that Fats Domino is out of New Orleans.  Why? - because he has somewhere to go.  Can you show any example of where people who actually have somewhere to go (not just crashing a nearby neighborhood) are being forcefully restrained?  I'm not seeing it.  Geraldo was screaming that the people needed to be removed from the convention center.  So today, they are air-lifted to the airport.  Guess what, now they are sitting at the airport.  Why?  Because they have nowhere to go yet.

The problem is they were apparently being held in a hostile environment, without food or water...and the delay costs lives. They were actively being prevented from leaving the area and seeking refuge in surrounding neighborhoods, during a period when there was no ETA for these supplies. It isn't a matter of whether they had a place to go or not, it's a matter of why they weren't provided assistance while someone worked to give them a place to go.

Yes, they are thankfully being airlifted TODAY, which is SIX DAYS after the storm. That's 4-5 days without water...which is the bare limit for survival. Those in charge cut it close. One more day and these folks would have been dropping like flies.

"This is not RACISM.  If it were RACISM then the government would have blown both I-10 briges and waved goodbye. "

So, the federal government BLOCKED the only exit out of the area, instead of blowing up bridges. How is that any better? (BTW, one I-10 bridge was washed away in the storm, there was only one way out of NOLA)

Anyhow, there has been a congressional investigation established to look into the mishandling of this whole affair, by members of both parties and it's up to US, the citizenry of the United States to pressure our elected officials to get to the bottom of it, so it doesn't happen again.

mrC

[markrvp]

"This is not RACISM.

[markrvp]

So, the federal government BLOCKED the only exit out of the area, instead of blowing up bridges. How is that any better? (BTW, one I-10 bridge was washed away in the storm, there was only one way out of NOLA)

Not true.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

markvp,

I think myself and JCL are arguing that there has been more instances of classism at work, and that by definition of the ethnic breakdown in American class systems, racism is often implicit therein. Had a disaster of this magnitude happened in Ireland, the classism breakdown would be different.

Anyhow, it isn't overtly racist, I'm not arguing that. There's obviously people of means that were trapped, and there's obviously poor white folk down there as well. However, the largest demographic, by far, is poor blacks. They are going to come to represent that face of this disaster, as the most devastated areas in NOLA are inhabited primarily by poor black folk. Going forward, issues of classism in America, and conversly "racism" will most likely be the dinner table/back-room converstations all over the country. It's a fine line, so it's important to parse the arguments carefully.




mrC

[markrvp]

I fully agree that the overwhelming majority of people affected in New Orleans is poor black people.  As you move along the coast of Mississippi you will find that this demographic swings 180 degrees as most of the homes destroyed there were owned by white people of means.  On the news, you see continuous coverage of New Orleans because, quite frankly, that's the most compelling story.  Many people in New Orleans were issued water and food well before any assistance was given to Waveland, Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian, and Long Beach, MS.  We are talking about people across three states needing LIFE SAVING ASSISTANCE.

What I do not believe is that George Bush or any member of the Federal government ever said to anyone, "Don't send any help to New Orleans, it's just poor black people being affected." 

I also concede that there is overwhelming evidence of CLASSISM at work in New Orleans.  As has been brought up in this thread before, there was corruption in "Sin City" long before hurricane Katrina.  What I am seeing though, is that people of any color who have somewhere to go and a way to get there have been evacuated.  Everyone else is simply having to wait on help that would have/should have been there sooner.  The next disaster will have a better response.  Hurricanes hit the US every year, but we have NEVER seen one this bad and the plan is being modified/made-up as we go.

I do not believe the plan has been made so as to be punitive to black people and have seen no evidence to support such claims.

[Zakk]

Just out of curiosity, since it might cost the taxpayers 10-50 BILLION dollars for the destruction in NO, wouldn't that be some sort of justification to NOT rebuild?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Just out of curiosity, since it might cost the taxpayers 10-50 BILLION dollars for the destruction in NO, wouldn't that be some sort of justification to NOT rebuild? 

Considering we have already spent over 400+ BILLION in Iraq, with a continued monthly projection of $5.8 BILLION a month...with little to nothing to show for it, I don't think it's too much to ask that we rather strongly consider rebuilding New Orleans, and fortifying it against further hurricanes.

After all, it is an AMERICAN city.



mrC

[M3talhead]

If 4 out of 5 people in a city are black, and 80% of the arrests made in that city involve African-Americans, guess what. Its not classism or racism by the police departments. Its called the law of probability. Same goes for this whole racism/classism-evacuation problem. If 4 out of 5 people stuck in the city are in the lower class, they're not being denied anything because of how they live, they're refusing aid because they are unwilling to be helped. These are the same people that take comfort in knowing that they can collect a welfare check and do nothing, instead of going out and finding a real job.

I'm also seeing a tendency in the last few posts for Mr. C to change the subject or not answer the question of how many homeless people he'd accept in his home. He seems to have a state of mind called NIMBY. Not In MY Back Yard. It goes something like this, "Do good things and give those needy people a place to go, just dont bring them here".

In regards to law enforcement holding people, Mr. C, if you were a resident of NOLA, and you had relatives in Wisconsin who were willing to take you in, would you be upset if the government didn't allow you to get on a bus or plane? In addition, pretend you were the governor of LA. Would you let loose tens of thousands of people who had nowhere to go?

[M3talhead]

After all, it is an AMERICAN city.

.....built by the French

[JB]

Scary fact no one seems to be mentioning.

Those pumps that burned out because they were only designed to handle heavy rain and not a full-blown flood?
They were dumping water back into Lake Pontchartrain.
The same lake that was dumping into the city through a levee breach.

New Orleans had NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER for dealing with a failed levee.
The city's  disaster plan consisted of sticking their collective heads in the sand and pretending it couldn't happen. And this has been their policy since the levees were first built and the bowl was drained to make it available for development back in the 1910s.

[DrewKaree]

This is from Fox News: http://s30.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1VGIKB6GMH0670TVAQ6ELSB3LI.

I can't view this.  Where can I find the codec or can someone translate it and repost?

[DrewKaree]

George. W. Bush, president of the United States, in his televised press conference referred to New Orleans as "this part of the world"...as if it *isn't* inside the United States. Is this evidence of the tremendous disconnect between this weathy administration and the less fortunate of America?

No, just evidence that you're willing to read into his words something that was never said or implied, and let the hobgoblins in your mind run wild.

I think it important to be skeptical of ALL reports before they are confirmed from multiple sources.

All reports about this event only, though, right? *cough*DanRather*cough*

It's weird.  You wish to point out how racism might be at hand, and in doing so, think that the best way to do so is to let everyone know you've got a solid grasp of all the terms racists might use.  Somehow, you think using "darkies
 and "negroes" is actually helping somehow here?  All you're doing is helping to ensure that emotions remain high, which only serves to make working on the problem harder than it has to be.  There are far better terms that could be used, and it serves no one to act in such a fashion. 

What we owe to the people there is to help them get the hell out of there and to deal with your issues about villifying people AFTERWARDS.  Keeping an open mind and treating people fairly, respectfully, and giving them the benefit of the doubt is far easier when you aren't helping inflame the situation with your rhetoric that simply makes people more wary than need be at a time when it's the last thing that needs to be worried about it. 

You're making New Orleans sound like some big plantation that "Massah kep' all us po' folks from leavin' less'n we get beat".  People moved there for a reason.  The pictures we get to see are representative of the population as a whole.  Their government was representative of their population.  What's next, Mexico is our problem too because Americans are "down with brown"?

[DrewKaree]

Considering we have already spent over 400+ BILLION in Iraq, with a continued monthly projection of $5.8 BILLION a month...with little to nothing to show for it, I don't think it's too much to ask that we rather strongly consider rebuilding New Orleans, and fortifying it against further hurricanes.

After all, it is an AMERICAN city.

Shrimp and hand grenades.  I've got an idea.  Let's take the money we're spending to help rebuild Iraq and shut it down there and use it to rebuild New Orleans.  Guess you prolly don't like that idea either, though.

It has been done before, in Richmond Virginia, and should be done again here.  There is not another setting like this, the reason for the problem is known, it cannot be fixed by man.....so the U.S. is probably gonna give it a shot  

If we had only had the foresight to call it "Orleans" instead, then the rebuilt city a few miles inland on way more solid ground could have been properly called "New" Orleans.

[Setabs]

Just out of curiosity, since it might cost the taxpayers 10-50 BILLION dollars for the destruction in NO, wouldn't that be some sort of justification to NOT rebuild?  I mean, it's happened before, it happened now and it will happen again.  I think you might make the whole area 'uninsurable'.  Obviously it's not safe for habitation, and it took a terrible toll on lives and resources.  Perhaps the taxpayers should speak out against rebuilding it? 

(Now off to check and see if my car insurance company is using this as an excuse to raise my rates, just like they did after 9/11)   

So i guess anything damaged in CA by earthquake should not be rebuilt.  We should evacuate the whole mid west and various other parts of the U.S. because of tornadoes.  The whole state of Florida needs to leave because of hurricanes.

It would be stupid not to rebuild NO.  It would kill the farm industry in mid west and whatever other industries rely on goods going in and out of the ports there. 

I agree with DrewKaree that the physical location of much of the city needs to be reassessed.

[M3talhead]

Something else people have overlooked...

With our dependence on fossil fuels increasing, it seems as though it would behoove the President to get NOLA back on its feet as quickly as possible, as it is the richest natural gas/petroleum region in the US.

[TheVengeance]

This video snip says it all. ---

As quoted from BigBoys.com

At a hurricane releif benefit Kanye West goes off about the way the media portrays black looters. A minute into it he blurts out Bush doesnt care about black people. Watch Mike Myers reaction, he doesnt know what to do. They quickly cut to Chris Tucker who mubbles for a while--- Send water...trucks...do what you can, save lives...we all are one and...Please, please please please. I would love to know what Mike Myers was saying to Kanye while Chris Tucker was tripping over his words.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/kanye.html

[Dexter]

On the racism thing. Just trying to imagine a load of white people being stuck on their roofs for 5 days in crawford, texas with no food or water waiting for bush to act.

Guess my imagination just isn't that good   

[TheVengeance]

You know , HOW and WHY did RACE even become an issue in this tragedy? Was it the response team not being fast enough to aid the victims? Something happened somewhere, right?

Is there even a RACE CARD at all here? Any chance this might be trickery by the MEDIA to once again stir the 'pot of multicultural bliss' in an attempt to gain publicity?

Perhaps maybe it's just greed. We're doing everything we can to help, but yet the people of NOLA seem to want more.

Just a few ideas floating around. What do y'all think? I'd like to hear some feedback on the events taking place after the storm.

The violence, looting, rioting , rapes  - - is this just a prime example of how these people really are? The media is painting such a vivid picture, it's almost as if they consider it an 'ethnic cleansing' of sort.

I've always given to charities, and I'm quite active with a few local ones. When is enough , enough though?

Like I said, just looking to pick someone's brain and find out if the way some of us are feeling now, is considered normal. 

[psik0tik]

There will always be racist card pulled if theres black people involved. And they atrent letting them into the places with electricity because those places havent been lootied yet and it would turn into another free for al and taking over builings party again. And its not just the blacks its all of them. And theyre saying theyre looting because they need to find food but you can't eat televisions and video games. And how the hell can you use a tv if thres no electrcity. The news says that at night its a war zone there. Theyre shooting eachother and raping women and CHILDREN. Its become its own little third world country.

[markrvp]

On the racism thing. Just trying to imagine a load of white people being stuck on their roofs for 5 days in crawford, texas with no food or water waiting for bush to act.

Guess my imagination just isn't that good

[Daniel270]

no.... it became a RACE issue when Jesse Jackson put his 2 cents in......

[DarkKobold]

no.... it became a RACE issue when Jesse Jackson put his 2 cents in......

If you remember the Riots in Benton Harbor, MI.... Jesse Jackson showed up, claiming the race card, and said that it was the governments fault for not having tech centers. Benton Harbor replied: "We have 3." Jesse then packed up, and ran out with his tail between his legs.

Next time you go into a crisis, make sure you do your previous research. 

[TheVengeance]

The RACE Card has become such a powerful tool for not only the African Americans , but the News Media as well. Now it seems as if they play on some sort of white guilt in order to claim victory in every instance the 'Card' is used.

I really hate that this has become the case with Katrina/NOLA. I'm tired of being held accountable for something I had NO part in whatsoever, and that includes my forefathers. The fact that slavery has become such a crutch with today's society, it's almost as if we're the victims now, having it shoved down our throats to no end.

I could go on forever, and not just because of Katrina. I wish there were a forum where we could discuss our differences and build strong foundations from there.

All that aside, I'm just in a real bad mood tonight people, so I don't mean any harm. I just a little disgusted with what has evolved from this storm.

[Daniel270]

I had my first run-in with a survivor from New Orleans last night.

[TheVengeance]

I really felt for the guy.

[JB]

Just out of curiosity, since it might cost the taxpayers 10-50 BILLION dollars for the destruction in NO, wouldn't that be some sort of justification to NOT rebuild?  I mean, it's happened before, it happened now and it will happen again.  I think you might make the whole area 'uninsurable'.  Obviously it's not safe for habitation, and it took a terrible toll on lives and resources.  Perhaps the taxpayers should speak out against rebuilding it? 

(Now off to check and see if my car insurance company is using this as an excuse to raise my rates, just like they did after 9/11)   

So i guess anything damaged in CA by earthquake should not be rebuilt.  We should evacuate the whole mid west and various other parts of the U.S. because of tornadoes.  The whole state of Florida needs to leave because of hurricanes.

It would be stupid not to rebuild NO.  It would kill the farm industry in mid west and whatever other industries rely on goods going in and out of the ports there. 

I agree with DrewKaree that the physical location of much of the city needs to be reassessed.

Well, they COULD go back to just using the high ground... but the whole point of draining the basin back in 1910 was so they wouldn't have to restrict the city to the high ground.

I'd blast the levees and rebuild the city right outside New Orleans Lake. 

[DrewKaree]

I also heard about another person who had come through town from there....  she went to Walmart here to get something to eat for her and her 3 kids... she didn't even have a dollar.  She offered to pay what she had for some food that the deli was obviously going to toss out... and they flat out REFUSED.....

1)  Businesses such as WalMart have had numerous reports of the lengths they went to in order to help folks recover thus far from the hurricane - individuals who were allowed to re-clothe their children, formula given, water and other needs available if people could reach the store...and all for free.  Not a dime was asked of those people.  Now, this may be terrible reporting and taking a story as the truth, but we can't simply villify the corporation as a whole for the actions of one individual location, and perhaps the actions of one individual within that location and throw 'em under the bus because of that single person in a staff of tens of thousands who may have acted in a way we don't understand.

2)  WalMart and other businesses have donated very large amounts of money to aid organizations to help in the relief efforts.  This IS NOT an "allegedly" type of story, this can be verified as factual and truthful.

3)  If they truly WERE going to "toss out" the food, there's a reason.  If they WERE to give the food to that person and that person were to become ill, contract food poisoning, or even the worst-case scenario, die from eating that food, WalMart could and most likely would be held liable for any of these issues and in fact, could be sued for a rather big chunk of money.  It HAS happened in the past, although I'm not positive about WalMart, there were 3 businesses that it happened to right here in my little neck of the woods.  These businesses were SUED and WON their cases because they contracted mild cases of food poisoning.  Didn't pay for anything, the business was "doing the kind-hearted thing", and they got HAMMERED for it.  That FREE charity given COST them.  In a screwed-up situation, there may have been another even MORE screwed-up situation that led to the second screwed-up situation

4)  Nothing was ever mentioned about whether or not that story can be confirmed, and whether or not the person was told the above things, all we know is that person's side of it, and no one corroborated the worker at WalMart who refused that person's request and the WHY's of the refusal.  Until a better grasp of what both sides have to say about the situation is known, it behooves us to hold off condemning the actions of a business, ESPECIALLY in light of what HAS been reported and IS verifiable.

[Daniel270]

I'm retracting my last statement on that post... which is now edited to do so....

[Dexter]

Guess my imagination just isn't that good