Differences between MAME Super Punch-Out and "my" arcade Super Punch-Out

[MaximRecoil]

I spent more quarters on Super Punch-Out as a kid than any other game (second would be the original Punch-Out). Searching for a way to play those two games at home (or at all, since I haven't seen a real SPO machine since '87/'88) was how I found MAME in the first place. I found Punch-Out for MAME first and after typing mame punchout in the DOS box, I was absolutely thrilled and amazed that the arcade game that I loved as a kid was right there on my computer screen; not a port, but the real thing.

Anyway, here are some differences between the official Super Punch-Out ROM that is used with MAME and the arcade machine that I played as a 12/13 year old in '87/'88:

The first difference you come to (not counting various minor emulation problems with the audio and skipping the anouncer's introduction for the fighters occassionally) is with Great Tiger. In the arcade I could consistently beat him at about 36 seconds. In MAME, my fastest time on him is 49 seconds. The reason is that, in the arcade, after knocking him down with one punch when he steps back, then forward to do his "Fists of Fury" Piston Hurricane impersonation, you could hit him once to the gut when he got up and he would immediately go back down again, and stay down, for an easy 36 second win. This doesn't ever work in MAME. You can hit him in the gut when he gets up but he takes it, along with 3 more shots to the gut and he still has energy left.

The second difference is when you get to Super Macho Man. In MAME, his location on the introduction screen is simply stated as "USA". In the arcade it was stated as "Venice Beach, California".

The third and final difference that I have noticed is; when you beat the 2nd Super Macho Man, in the arcade you were greeted with the 3rd Bear Hugger, as you would expect. The 3rd Bear Hugger is distinctive in that, unlike the first two Bear Huggers, his opening move is his big one hit knock down move. This will catch most anyone off-guard if they are fighting this incarnation of Bear Hugger for the first time; resulting in them going down instantly less than 3 seconds into the round and not getting back up. I remember it well from the arcade because the first time I got to the 3rd Bear Hugger was also the first time I beat my rival on that machine's long standing high score, and of course, the first time I'd beaten the 2nd Super Macho Man.

In MAME, the 3rd Bear Hugger is skipped (it goes directly to the 3rd Dragon Chan after beating the 2nd Super Macho Man) and he is saved for the 4th time around, in which case, he fights identically (including the one hit knockdown opening move) to the arcade's 3rd Bear Hugger).

Does anyone here own a Super Punch-Out machine? It would be nice if the ROM for the version that I played as a kid could be dumped and added to MAME.

BTW, I have tried different dip switch setting such as "difficulty" and "time" and "unknown" but none of them make a difference regarding the stuff I have mentioned above.

[deadmoney5]

wow...you played a LOT of Punch-Out..

When does Mike Tyson show up?

[MaximRecoil]

wow...you played a LOT of Punch-Out..

When does Mike Tyson show up?

The first time I played Mike Tyson's Punch-Out on the NES I was extremely disappointed. The NES had just come out and only a few people in school had one yet. My cousin got one early on and he got the game "Excitebike" with it which was a game I played a lot of, and could beat in the arcade. I was amazed when he fired up Excitebike on the new NES and it was identical to the arcade version I had played so much of. So, I had it in my head that the NES could do pixel-perfect renditions of any arcade game, especially the Nintendo arcade games. Of course, I didn't realize at the time that it was just slightly modified NES hardware (Nintendo Vs. hardware) sitting inside that arcade machine that I'd played so much of.

So a friend of mine at school got "Mike Tyson's Punch-Out" for his new NES and told me about it. I went to his house after school and when he put it in I was like, "What in the blue hell is this?! Why are they calling him "Little Mac"? and why is he a midget? He has to jump 3 feet in the air just to hit Glass Joe! Why is my guard not staying up unless I hold the controller up? The way he dodges, it's all out of whack! Multiple rounds on the same guy? The sound and graphics suck! Why is Mario the referee? and why is he bigger than 'Little Mac'? Soda Popinski?? No, it's supposed to be 'Vodka Drunkenski'! What are those hearts all about? I get 'tired', turn pink and can't punch if I run out of those hearts?? I need 'stars' to throw a KO punch??..."

Anyway, I like the game on its own merits now, rather than comparing it to the original arcade games, but I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever seen at the time, and walked home wondering why they could get Excitebike right; and screw up Punch-Out so badly.

[mccoy178]

That is impressive.

[MaximRecoil]

That is impressive.

What is, exactly?

BTW, I just got a new personal high on MAME Super Punch-Out - 488,540.

Just for comparison, the records on Twin Galaxies for this game are:

Arcade:



MAME:



I don't know why that arcade score is so low. I had 375,000 or so as my top score when I was 12 in '87.

For the MAME score, that is a good one. I always use the dip switch settings specified there but my score tonight of 488,540 was with the single rematch that the game allows. For some reason, TG doesn't allow the rematch so my actual "TG approved" score was 477,100; beaten by the 5th Dragon Chan at fight #19:

[mccoy178]

Well, I'm humbled to meet a true champion of the mame world.  This would make one of those funny budweiser commercials.  Pure men of gaming..........

[iwillfearnoevil]

why the differences and what can be done about it? are there multiple versions of the real arcade board and the mame rom happened to be an unfamiliar one?

[TOK]

why the differences and what can be done about it? are there multiple versions of the real arcade board and the mame rom happened to be an unfamiliar one?

For the USA vs. Venice Beach thing, that's just it I think. A slightly different revision of the game. As for the speed at which a fighter gets up, two things come to mind. Is it possible the old arcade version you played had the difficulty cranked down a bit? The other thing involves emulation speed, which is a lot sketchier. Robotron is one of the well documented ROMs that suffered from this.
The original machine got bogged down drawing the robots on the screen and it actually slowed the game down. The MAME version didn't suffer this problem, and as a result ran faster and was harder (this is a very simplified explanation).

I think there is a fixed ROM for Robotron to emulate the slower video. I love the game, but still play the faster original ROM.

Some guys have run the original side by side with MAME and noted the timing differences in various games. It's a well known problem, but there isn't a simple solution.

[MaximRecoil]

For the USA vs. Venice Beach thing, that's just it I think. A slightly different revision of the game.

Yeah, definitely. There are so many games in MAME that have multiple revisions; I wish they could get all of the revisions for the [Super] Punch-Out games. It is not like we are talking obscure machines here; they shouldn't be too hard to find.

As for the speed at which a fighter gets up, two things come to mind. Is it possible the old arcade version you played had the difficulty cranked down a bit?

Well, it isn't an issue of the speed at which he gets up; it is that the single punch to the gut after he gets up does not put him to the mat like it does in the arcade version that I always played. You can still connect with that punch to the gut but he doesn't go down, and you can hit him 3 more times in a row to the gut and he still doesn't go down. It is like; imagine if you were playing regular Punch-Out on MAME and Bald Bull did his "Bull Charge", and you hit him in the head at the right time and connected but instead of going down like he was supposed to, he just threw his punch anyway. That would be weird, right?

As far as the difficulty goes, both MAME and the arcade machine's defaults are on the easiest settings both for "difficulty" and "time" (which determines how fast the timer runs). So if playing MAME on the easiest settings doesn't make it like the arcade, then the arcade couldn't possibly have been on an easier setting. On top of that, I have tried it on all the difficulty settings to no avail.

The one about the missing 3rd Bear Hugger has to either be attributed to a different revision or a glitch/corruption/missing code or something in MAME. And again, no combination of dip switch settings will produce a 3rd Bear Hugger in MAME where he is supposed to be (though you do always get a 3rd Bear Hugger where the arcade's 4th Bear Hugger is located who is functionally identical to the arcade's 3rd Bear Hugger).

MAME's roster:

01. Bear Hugger
02. Dragon Chan
03. Vodka Drunkenski
04. Great Tiger
05. Super Macho Man

06. Bear Hugger
07. Dragon Chan
08. Vodka Drunkenski
09. Great Tiger
10. Super Macho Man

11. Dragon Chan
12. Vodka Drunkenski
13. Super Macho Man

14. Bear Hugger
15. Dragon Chan
16. Vodka Drunkenski
17. Super Macho Man

18. Bear Hugger
19. Dragon Chan
20. Vodka Drunkenski
21. Super Macho Man

As far as I can tell, it then follows the same pattern indefinitely, i.e. just like the initial roster, minus Great Tiger after that 2nd time around.

Now, the arcade was the same deal with one exception, there was a 3rd Bear Hugger where he was supposed to be:

01. Bear Hugger
02. Dragon Chan
03. Vodka Drunkenski
04. Great Tiger
05. Super Macho Man

06. Bear Hugger
07. Dragon Chan
08. Vodka Drunkenski
09. Great Tiger
10. Super Macho Man

11. Bear Hugger
12. Dragon Chan
13. Vodka Drunkenski
14. Super Macho Man

15. Bear Hugger
16. Dragon Chan
17. Vodka Drunkenski
18. Super Macho Man

19. Bear Hugger
20. Dragon Chan
21. Vodka Drunkenski
22. Super Macho Man

[JOHN WALSH]

I think you earn the award as punch out king!(hands down)

[Lilwolf]

You probablem is you probably used to run a different revision thats in mame... or a different countries verision.  So you might want to keep an eye on super punch out boards being sold on ebay and email the seller for the numbers on the roms to try and see if they are the same as the version in mame.

The other thing is to mess with the different dip switches.  There is a chance that the same board can be changed.  (at work so I can't test it here)

Last... it could be just a problem with the emulation itself.  But the real way to find out is to ask at the mame board.  Some emulated games they REALLY know its really really close if not exact because of all the other examples... and having full documentation on the machine / chips.  Others they guess a lot until they get it to work.

[RayB]

Question: In MAME, how have you been doing the "duck" properly? In the arcade, you had to pull up on the joystick.

[MaximRecoil]

Question: In MAME, how have you been doing the "duck" properly? In the arcade, you had to pull up on the joystick.

I use a Playstation controller with USB adapter in MAME and for the KO punch I use the R2 button and for duck I use the L2 button (for right and left jab I use the square and X buttons). I actually like it better than arcade controls for that game, your index fingers are naturally resting on those two buttons anyway; it is very intuitive. Although I loved the arcade machine and would still love to own one; and spent every cent I had on it in the late 80's, as well as having a score back then that would have doubled the current Twin Galaxies arcade record; I was never real fond of the "pull up to duck" function because I had to alter my natural grip on the joystick to do it. I was never real fond of the big blue KO punch "button" either; it was too far away from the jab buttons.

[RayB]

HEY I loved that big blue button! Helps get your agression out.

[MaximRecoil]

HEY I loved that big blue button! Helps get your agression out.

LOL. The KO punch in both arcade Punch-Out games was always a big disappointment to me. In some case, it does less damage than a normal right jab (WTF @ that?) For example, in a normal pattern with the first Vodka Drunkenski, on the last series of punches before he goes down for the first time, 3 right jabs + 1 KO punch = he still has a sliver of energy left and is still standing, requiring one more hit to go down. Simply throwing 4 right jabs and no KO punch = lays him out cold as a block of ice.

The major reason that I bother with it is the points, i.e. it gives you 300 points per hit with it as opposed to 40 points for a normal left or right jab. It also comes in handy on the second Dragon Chan, who can be nailed with it about 8 times in a row consistently if you time it right. The 2nd Dragon Chan can really pad your score.

In the later stages of the game, you need to be able to integrate the KO punches seamlessly with the series of jabs or you will pay for trying to use it, so having the button far away from the two jab buttons just complicates things.

But yeah, the big blue plunger does lend itself well to being smacked with a good deal of force, lol. I used to get a kick out of seeing newcomers to those games playing; you heard a lot of "BANG! BANG! BANG!" and "DONG! DONG! DONG!" (the sound it makes when you try to use the KO punch without your power meter filled, lol).

"Ho! Ho! Ho!"

"C'mon! Stand up and fight!"

Then a good deal of cussing at Bald Bull.

[RayB]

Hey don't you think Nintendo designed that as part of the game's difficulty? The distance and delay in hitting that big blue button? Otherwise it gets way too easy (as evidenced by your performance using a PS2 controller).

Man, now I miss my old cabinet.
MIGHTY BLOW! MIGHTY BLOW!

[MaximRecoil]

Hey don't you think Nintendo designed that as part of the game's difficulty? The distance and delay in hitting that big blue button? Otherwise it gets way too easy (as evidenced by your performance using a PS2 controller).

Possibly, but I can do similarly well on either the arcade machine or MAME; I am just more comfortable with the PS controller on MAME. For example, I can marathon a regular Punch-Out machine just as well as I can on MAME. The only thing preventing me from setting a top record on that game is the fact that the record is about 16 million, which would take 16+ hours to do. Punch-Out offers no substantial opportunity for breaks like some games like Asteroids or Defender would, due to collecting extra lives, so it would be a straight out 16 hour session. That isn't for me.

With Super Punch-Out, it is far more difficult and I don't know of anyone who can marathon it; not in MAME or the actual machine. That is my goal though; to get to the point where the game can no longer beat me; but rather I choose when I want to stop playing; like I do in the original Punch-Out.

My best score in the arcade when I was 12 in '87 was 375,XXX points. When I got the game for MAME (the 2nd game I sought out upon discovering MAME after Punch-Out), it took about a year of playing it off and on before I beat my old score from the arcade, and even longer than that to break 400,000; even with the Playstation controller that I like so much. The 3rd Super Macho Man was still a major road block to me, just as it had been when I was a kid.

Man, now I miss my old cabinet.
MIGHTY BLOW! MIGHTY BLOW!

You are lucky to have owned one. I remember reading about it on your site before I ever found BYOAC, in particular, this:

in a later auction I managed to get a NOS (new old stock) Super Punch-Out kit.

And I was thinking, "Why that lucky SOB..."

Man, I was reading an old thread here and someone had a Punch-Out cabinet that they wanted to convert to a PC10 cabinet...

Blasphemy! (lol)

[Wade]

You're the same guy who was wanting to do the Mame multi Punchout cab, right?

As big of a fan of that game as you obviously are, you really should own the real games.  They come around occasionally for not much money (I had a chance at one for $100), even super nice ones aren't that expensive.  So it's more a matter of space.  You really should own the originals.  Mame is nice, but there is nothing quite like knowing you are playing the real deal.

Wade

[MaximRecoil]

You're the same guy who was wanting to do the Mame multi Punchout cab, right?

As big of a fan of that game as you obviously are, you really should own the real games.

[Wade]

You should query RGVAC and RGVAM periodically.  None of my friends have one at the moment, but one has passed through recently.  I would think you could find a VERY nice one for no more than maybe $500.

You might want to specify you want any of the Punch Outs that would be in the same cabinet.  I figure you can probably convert from Punch Out to Super Punch Out pretty easily (just a guess).  You can probably dig up kits for either one.

-------------
As far as the Mame thing, sure, you might get it working and it might be a nice solution in the end.  I see the dual output card combined with a 15khz monitor freq plus the possibility of the signals being inverted (did nintendos of that era still have the inverse video?) as being a major trouble point.  Esp. compared to just installing multiple boards (or swapping boards) in one original cabinet, which is usually not that difficult to do, or wire up.

Going with the original boards just seems like it would be a lot easier, to me.  Plus, I know it is possible to wire up multiple games, and I know it isn't that difficult.  I am very experienced with PC's and Mame, and what you propose doing just sounds like a big headache to me, which might not ever work, and could end up being unrepairable.  PC's seem to be plentiful, but in my short lifetime, I've run into many cases where certain parts or software was no longer available, which pretty much made the entire setup obsolete.  I don't view PC's as "future-proof" as you do.

Wade

[RayB]

Here... it's a start! 

[MaximRecoil]

You might want to specify you want any of the Punch Outs that would be in the same cabinet.  I figure you can probably convert from Punch Out to Super Punch Out pretty easily (just a guess).  You can probably dig up kits for either one.

I've found one SPO conversion kit (complete other than 1 of the 2 side "Super" decals) and it is not cheap. He wants $200 for it which includes shipping. People have already offered him $100 and $150 and he has turned it down. They are hardly common. Punch-Out boards are a lot easier to find. He has an NOS Arm Wrestling conversion kit too; I hate to think what he wants for that.

As far as the Mame thing, sure, you might get it working and it might be a nice solution in the end.  I see the dual output card combined with a 15khz monitor freq plus the possibility of the signals being inverted (did nintendos of that era still have the inverse video?) as being a major trouble point.  Esp. compared to just installing multiple boards (or swapping boards) in one original cabinet, which is usually not that difficult to do, or wire up.

The inverted video thing is only relevant if you are using the original Sanyo monitors; not if you are using any other standard resolution monitors. Getting it set up would be a one time thing and regardless of how difficult it would be; it would be the essence of "easy" to switch between the applicable games after that point; for however many years you have it.

With multiple game boards it will always require opening the cabinet and getting down in there with a flashlight and unplugging and replugging forty-eleven connectors whenever you want to play a different game; not to mention that PC10 and Arm Wrestling both use different control panels from each other; and different from Punch-Out as well.

I don't view PC's as "future-proof" as you do.

Just because you can't get one piece of hardware or one piece of software to work anymore doesn't mean you can find alternatives that can do the exact same thing; and usually better. We have a long ways to go before we reach the end of the line with X86 hardware and software; then a long time after that before the most current stuff starts drying up. Compare that to a low production run of a proprietary piece of hardware that started drying up 20 years ago.

[RayB]

$200, with the working board, Marquee, replacement control panel?

Sounds ok. It's not a "deal" but if it's your favorite game...

[Wade]

$200 isn't a deal but it's okay I guess.  I'm sure they sell for a lot less than that if you have a little patience.  If you are only looking on ebay then you might always have to pay that.  Like I said, I passed on the whole game for $100.  There is no shortage of PO parts, they just haven't become popular enough for people to dig them out of their storage bins.  If tomorrow, PO took a huge jump in interest, you'd find dozens of kits on ebay.

Did those games have Sanyos in them originally?  If so, that is probably what most of them have in them now.  It would be pretty relevant, esp. if you want to start with an original cabinet.

I don't know about the Arm Wrestling controls, can't help you there, but I was thinking about 2 or 3 games in one cabinet.  It can be wired easily and only require a 3-way switch, or perhaps a 4-way switch (hard to find I'm sure, but I'm also sure they are out there).  If you look at it like that, you could have a PO/SPO in one cabinet for close to the cost of the game (Say, $400 for the game and another $100 for the extra board).  Simple...

With the PC hardware thing.  You are talking about using a specific video card, presumably with Windows, plus the help of some oddball software.  You would need ALL of these parts to continue working.  I don't think Windows is very future proof at all, in fact I'm fully expecting newer versions of Windows to "expire" at some point.  Many pieces of hardware made for Windows will need special drivers to make it work correctly, often which don't work with future Windows versions.

I am probably biased, because I have been dealing with some obsolete systems for years, and it is a challenge to keep them running.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue this, because obviously it is a matter of opinion.  Especially the future-proof thing, which we could debate forever.

I'm just saying that you can have what you want (2-in-1 PO/SPO, possible another game or two), for not much trouble or money ($500?), and skip the whole MAME thing.  IMO, that would be the way to go.

Wade

[MaximRecoil]

$200, with the working board, Marquee, replacement control panel?

Sounds ok. It's not a "deal" but if it's your favorite game...

It is my favorite game. It isn't the whole control panel that is included though, it is just the 5-way joystick that is needed for SPO (the pull up to duck feature). He sent me 2 pictures:





The joystick is currently mounted as you can see.

Like I mentioned, the only thing that is missing is one of the "Super" side decals.

[MaximRecoil]

$200 isn't a deal but it's okay I guess.

[AceTKK]

This just popped up in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=42494.0

"Punchout - VERY NICE! Monitors look great.. Recent cap kits, original cpo looks awsome. No cab damage, nice and clean inside.. hardly touched. Power supply has been converted to a swither.. but was done 'cleanly'. The only thing wrong is the sideart is trashed,, common.. but the rest of it looks great! Works 100!"

[Wade]

I came here to post the same thing.  See how much he is looking to get, might be $300-400.  Even with shipping, I think it would be worth it to get your holy grail.  I think I've seen side art for sale for it a few times before, so you would probably find that eventually.

Wade

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks to everyone who gave me a heads-up on this. I don't know what the person is asking for that machine but it appears to be a nice one with a lot of work put into it; and when the shipping is added in; probably out of my price range.

However; I have found what I am looking for after following some leads, and it is a solid Punch-Out machine, everything included, and working, i.e. two working Sanyo monitors, working power supply, CP with its joysticks and buttons, coin mechanism, etc., but there is no board; and the whole deal is very affordable. I am working out the details for arranging for shipment right now, which will cost several times the amount of the machine; but what can you do?

I bought the SPO conversion kit that I mentioned earlier in this thread. $200 stung pretty good but I am doing a good job of rationalizing it to myself, lol. For one thing, he included shipping in that price, which is at least $20. He also threw in a regular Nintendo joystick from a Punch-Out machine, which is also $20 from an online retailer that I came across (I know they can be had for cheaper but so can anything if you are in the right place at the right time). So that gets me to $160 for the actual conversion kit which isn't so bad. One online retailer I saw wanted $119 for an SPO board alone, and that was with a required trade-in of an identical non-working board. The joystick which was unique to SPO and Arm Wrestling, if you could ever find one for sale by itself would probably fetch a pretty penny too. Then there is the marquee and side art and manual which could very well nickel and dime it on up another $50 or so if you bought them separately...

Not a steal but I can live with it. Besides, now I will have a fully functional Super Punch-Out machine and I can just go ahead and officially set the Twin Galaxies record on it, lol; not to mention that I have only wanted one for about 21 years.