Author Topic: Another NES Question (Read 5210 times)

nes_gamer · « **on:** July 13, 2005, 06:10:05 pm »

I have seen NES PC and all these modded NES', and was wondering if there was a way to put a emulator and roms inside a nes cartridge and play the roms on your normal, not hacked, nes.

JB · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2005, 08:09:54 pm »

*rolls eyes*

No. The NES is nowhere NEAR powerful enough to emulate anything of interest.

ften · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2005, 09:44:33 pm »

Quote from: JB on July 13, 2005, 08:09:54 pm

*rolls eyes*

No. The NES is nowhere NEAR powerful enough to emulate anything of interest.

Not to mention there are no good NES flash carts out there to do such a thing anyway.

-FTen

ChadTower · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2005, 11:25:37 am »

I've wondered why, really, no NES flash carts.

DaemonCollector · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:03:26 pm »

No NES flashcards because to do anything interesting it would have to be on a mapper, and than you can only load games that work with that mapper. I remember seeing someone make one NES flash cart...can't remember where though.

ChadTower · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:10:34 pm »

Mapper?

JB · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2005, 06:42:53 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 14, 2005, 01:10:34 pm

Mapper?

Short for "memory mapper."
Bank-switching hardware, basically.

If you already know what bank-switching is, skip the following...

The NES has a painfully limited ROM address space. Anything more advanced than Super Mario 1 rapidly runs out of ROM space.

Bank-switching lets them get around this by changing the active chunk of ROM as needed, creating a "virtual ROM" small enough for the NES to read.
Think of the NES address space as a single sheet of paper. Changing ROM banks is much like turning pages in a book.

daywane · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2005, 08:13:51 am »

the old 8 bit atari did this very well

ChadTower · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2005, 08:31:22 am »

Quote from: JB on July 14, 2005, 06:42:53 pm

Bank-switching hardware, basically.

That could easily be done in software, though that would increase the cost.

JB · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2005, 02:39:32 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 15, 2005, 08:31:22 am

Quote from: JB on July 14, 2005, 06:42:53 pm
Bank-switching hardware, basically.

That could easily be done in software, though that would increase the cost.

Quote from: ChadTower on July 15, 2005, 08:31:22 am

Quote from: JB on July 14, 2005, 06:42:53 pm
Bank-switching hardware, basically.

That could easily be done in software, though that would increase the cost.

This is true.
It seems no one really wants to expend the effort to make a multi-mapper cart, though.

ChadTower · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2005, 03:49:02 pm »

I don't care about a multicart, I'd be happy with one game at a time.

Tahnok · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:21:05 pm »

One game at a time would still need the proper mappers.

ChadTower · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2005, 04:36:18 pm »

Yeah, but it would be far less complex than a multicart. you wouldn't have to have multiple dimensions.

JB · « **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2005, 06:32:21 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 15, 2005, 04:36:18 pm

Yeah, but it would be far less complex than a multicart. you wouldn't have to have multiple dimensions.

It still has to have a programmable logic array. You just upload the mapper profile once at game install instead of on a per-game basis(if I were making a multi-cart, the game configuration would be attached to each ROM image as a header, personally).
...
Well, that and you can use a much smaller flash chip.

*thinks*
Some NES games have volatile RAM in the cart(either workspace or video) . So you'd have to include RAM in your flash cart too, or lose compatibility.

But hell, if they can do a single-chip Commodore 64 or MSX computer on PALs, NES mappers should be trivial.

ChadTower · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2005, 10:09:49 pm »

Yep... my guess is that NES carts are so plentiful that there just isn't a market.

JB · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2005, 11:36:50 pm »

Y're pr'ly right.

jhanson · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2005, 07:15:27 am »

There used to be plans somewhere out there for making a NES flash cartridge, but it only worked with the first gen, tiny games (like Balloon Fight). I haven't seen it in years though. It was one of those things I found on a BBS back in the day.

JB · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2005, 07:22:12 pm »

Quote from: jhanson on July 18, 2005, 07:15:27 am

There used to be plans somewhere out there for making a NES flash cartridge, but it only worked with the first gen, tiny games (like Balloon Fight). I haven't seen it in years though. It was one of those things I found on a BBS back in the day.

Yah. Mapperless games.

You can apply the concept to ANY NES cart, but it'll only work for other games that share the same board configuration. You couldn't run Crystalis on a Zelda 2 cart, or Metal Storm in a Contra, because the hardware's diffrent,

ChadTower · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2005, 08:53:45 am »

So really, it would be best done in software, with the mapping done in software. That requires an altered rom for every game you may want to do it with, that includes the software mapping... which is a total PIA.

Just another reason the NES doesn't stand the test of time at all.

MrTroy · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2005, 12:52:09 pm »

I'm not realyl sure what's going on here...

But why is there a flash cart for SNES, Genesis, Master System, N64... basically every other system besides the NES. But those 101 games thingys have one chip on it with all the games, that you can just re-solder a 72pin connector to, to make your own NES.

So why isn't there a flash cart yet? Forgive me. I haven't had coffee today(once agian)

ChadTower · « **Reply #20 on:** July 19, 2005, 12:54:06 pm »

Dude, if you actually read this thread, the specific answer is in the posts directly preceding your own.

JB · « **Reply #21 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:58:46 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 19, 2005, 08:53:45 am

So really, it would be best done in software, with the mapping done in software. That requires an altered rom for every game you may want to do it with, that includes the software mapping... which is a total PIA.

Just another reason the NES doesn't stand the test of time at all.

Well, each mapper doesn't have the same feature set anyways.
Some only page CHR-ROM, some only page PRG-ROM, some have multiple paged windows, etc.

Like I said, the obvious thing to do would be take a programmable logic array and just add a header to the ROM image to tell the array what it needs to be.

From there I see 2 directions to go...
The EASY thing to do would be to adapt a ROM auditing tool to append a flash cart header to the images. Just run your NES images through it once.

The SMART thing would be to include enough code for the cart to read UNIF headers(the older iNES headers aren't adequate for this task) and match them to corresponding game configurations in the logic array ROM.
This also makes it easier to load multiple ROM images, as you've already got a boot ROM handling your files, so you can just drop a menu into that.

I have to give the NES credit. It was designed for a very limited sort of game, and when the industry exploded in technological complexity shortly afterwards, they managed to keep it viable. Sure it was done with duct tape and prayer, but it worked.

ChadTower · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2005, 09:25:51 am »

All for a system that was so physically flawed that even before it was obsolete, nobody had one that worked.

JB · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2005, 08:17:28 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 20, 2005, 09:25:51 am

All for a system that was so physically flawed that even before it was obsolete, nobody had one that worked.

I have one that still works today.

But yah, that damned ZIF socket was one of the dumbest moves in gaming history. Right up there with the 32x.

Daniel270 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2005, 08:38:46 pm »

No matter how badly designed the console was, it still has some of the most memorable games in history.... if I had more knowhow, I'd have built one of those that use the Dreamcast and the memory cards.....

ChadTower · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:42:17 am »

Quote from: JB on July 20, 2005, 08:17:28 pm

I have one that still works today.

I have about 15... none of them work well after thorough cleanings. I have ordered multiple connectors from every newly manufactured source and a couple that aren't even publicly known, and none of them are 100% reliable. I have completely given up on it.

JB · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2005, 02:25:07 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 21, 2005, 08:42:17 am

Quote from: JB on July 20, 2005, 08:17:28 pm
I have one that still works today.

I have about 15... none of them work well after thorough cleanings. I have ordered multiple connectors from every newly manufactured source and a couple that aren't even publicly known, and none of them are 100% reliable. I have completely given up on it.

*shrugs*
My NES is more reliable than my Genesis.

daywane · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:19:15 pm »

darn guys.
I have 2 working nes.
1 sega gen ( gen #1 )
sega saturn
turbo grafix
snes
3 gameboys
2 gbc
all still work fine

ChadTower · « **Reply #28 on:** July 22, 2005, 09:46:42 am »

I define "fully working" as 100% reliable, no failures. That means no blinks, not even one.

You can't go to a yard sale around here without someone throwing a Genesis at you. It's to the point where a person has to turn away 5 every saturday.

daywane · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2005, 11:28:57 am »

ah come on .. I blink out avery now and then

JB · « **Reply #30 on:** July 22, 2005, 11:05:08 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on July 22, 2005, 09:46:42 am

I define "fully working" as 100% reliable, no failures. That means no blinks, not even one.

You can't go to a yard sale around here without someone throwing a Genesis at you. It's to the point where a person has to turn away 5 every saturday.

I don't think I have a system older than my Dreamcast that meets that description. Not since my PS1 's eject button quit returning properly all the time.

ChadTower · « **Reply #31 on:** July 23, 2005, 04:28:27 pm »

I have at least one of nearly every console except the NES that fits that description.

ften · « **Reply #32 on:** July 24, 2005, 12:38:09 am »

Even software emulation can't really handle all the memory mappers. I believe the NES has over 100 different types of memory mappers and the best emulator for the NES today can only handle about half that. Luckly a lot of the unemulated mappers were used in pirate carts and other weird Asian games. I used to have some nice links that talk all about the NES' use of mappers, but I've seen to have lost them. The below link is to a developer cart site;

http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/devcarts/index.php

-FTen

JB · « **Reply #33 on:** July 24, 2005, 04:01:17 pm »

Quote from: ften on July 24, 2005, 12:38:09 am

Even software emulation can't really handle all the memory mappers. I believe the NES has over 100 different types of memory mappers and the best emulator for the NES today can only handle about half that. Luckly a lot of the unemulated mappers were used in pirate carts and other weird Asian games. I used to have some nice links that talk all about the NES' use of mappers, but I've seen to have lost them. The below link is to a developer cart site;

http://www.bripro.com/low/hardware/devcarts/index.php

-FTen

Yah.
Part of the problem is also that the popular iNES header was never intended to support all the mappers currently emulated, and the ones that were added have been done haphazardly by several diffrent people with conflicting numbering schemes.

And a lot of games are carrying bad headers that tell the emu to misconfigure itself anyways, due in large part to the fact that the most popular ROM image tool, GoodNES, for a VERY long time didn't even look at headers. If I recall, in its current state it can read headers, but not fix them.


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