The end of GM & Ford?

[danny_galaga]

I'd love to see Ford bring over the falcon or puma.


But then look how many SUVs toyota makes too.

[DrewKaree]

You know the old geo prism is just a corolla.  you know a pontiac vibe is a toyota matrix.

I also know that a Pontiac Aztec is Ass On Wheels^TM and should have never been put into production.  Why, when GM decides to go outside the box in a new design, do they have to stomp on the box and slap some cheap gray plastic on it?

Pontiac's flat suck.  Of the three I've had for varying lengths of time, there isn't a single one that I look back fondly on, and the cars are so generic inside with styling cues ripped straight from Ann Frank's diary....it's an epidemic of all their cars, but specifically Pontiac has committed some serious design gaffes.  I agree with PDB that Pontiac could be done away with, or at least change their slogan to something more truthful.  "Pontiac - We Build Frustration"

[ErikRuud]

well yeah, walk up to a new car and look at the sticker.  They say what percentage of the car's parts are form where.

That is a more recent thing, and I forgot that they do that now.  It's been a while since I shopped for a new car.

But you still hear people saying they wouldn't buy a foreign car, even though the car they are driving is mostly foreign parts or design.

[KenToad]

You know the old geo prism is just a corolla.  you know a pontiac vibe is a toyota matrix.

I also know that a Pontiac Aztec is Ass On Wheels^TM and should have never been put into production.  Why, when GM decides to go outside the box in a new design, do they have to stomp on the box and slap some cheap gray plastic on it?

Pontiac's flat suck.  Of the three I've had for varying lengths of time, there isn't a single one that I look back fondly on, and the cars are so generic inside with styling cues ripped straight from Ann Frank's diary....it's an epidemic of all their cars, but specifically Pontiac has committed some serious design gaffes.  I agree with PDB that Pontiac could be done away with, or at least change their slogan to something more truthful.  "Pontiac - We Build Frustration"

Amen, brother.

Cheers,
KenToad

[SirPoonga]

You know the old geo prism is just a corolla.  you know a pontiac vibe is a toyota matrix.

I also know that a Pontiac Aztec is Ass On Wheels^TM and should have never been put into production.  Why, when GM decides to go outside the box in a new design, do they have to stomp on the box and slap some cheap gray plastic on it?

The newer models doen't have the plastic.  Still ugly.  My friend has one.  it is nice for hauling crap, tons of cargo space.  Very versitile.

Any, the vibe is probably the only good pntiac (next to the solstice) since it is just a corolla

FYI my all time favorite car is a supra twin turbo.  Then the US lotus elise because it is a "toyota mr2 on steroids" (uses a celica engine and transmision).

[SirPoonga]

well yeah, walk up to a new car and look at the sticker.  They say what percentage of the car's parts are form where.

That is a more recent thing, and I forgot that they do that now.  It's been a while since I shopped for a new car.

Define recent   They did back when I was in college...

[GGKoul]

GM to cut 25,000 jobs by 2008...

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=AP&Date=20050607&ID=4872949&GT1=6657

[danny_galaga]

I'd say the one weakness of new models is the electric fuel pump in the tank. A mechanical pump was an easy swap on an old car, and I've dropped tanks on 3 of my cars and trucks to replace electric pumps.

yes, but you need it for fuel injection. because they run at higher pressure its much simpler to have electric than mechanical...

[danny_galaga]

[VCS2600]

 

But you still hear people saying they wouldn't buy a foreign car, even though the car they are driving is mostly foreign parts or design.

 I believe the VW Jetta is now made in Mexico, which is quite odd in a way.
 
 On the idea of bringing in models from overseas subsidiaries, e.g. the Falcon & Puma. Somehow it's a good idea in theory, but for one reason or another it never works out. I am thinking of the Merkur & Scorpio Ford brought over in the 80s, and more recently the Caddy Catera (an Opel) and the Pontiac GTO (a Holden). Either it isn't to US tastes, or quality drops when it's made over here, or in Mexico!, etc.

[GGKoul]

Honda's and Toyota's cars made in Canada and the US usually have a higher domestic part percentage then GM/Fords. 

[danny_galaga]

 

But you still hear people saying they wouldn't buy a foreign car, even though the car they are driving is mostly foreign parts or design.

 I believe the VW Jetta is now made in Mexico, which is quite odd in a way.
 
 On the idea of bringing in models from overseas subsidiaries, e.g. the Falcon & Puma. Somehow it's a good idea in theory, but for one reason or another it never works out. I am thinking of the Merkur & Scorpio Ford brought over in the 80s, and more recently the Caddy Catera (an Opel) and the Pontiac GTO (a Holden). Either it isn't to US tastes, or quality drops when it's made over here, or in Mexico!, etc.

the GTO is made in australia. i would agree its probably not a big seller but i would say its not due to manufacture quality, but to demand.

[VCS2600]

 There were many complaints about the GTO's styling before it arrived and GM or Bob Lutz didn't seem to take that onboard. GM still seem to have the mindset that they are the leaders, that could be why they don't listen and are slow to innovate. Like back in the 70s when Honda came up with the CVCC models. GM could have come up with that, and they are playing fast catch up on the hybrid technology. As the world's largest automaker they should be leading in technology.

[SirPoonga]

 

But you still hear people saying they wouldn't buy a foreign car, even though the car they are driving is mostly foreign parts or design.

 I believe the VW Jetta is now made in Mexico, which is quite odd in a way.
 
 On the idea of bringing in models from overseas subsidiaries, e.g. the Falcon & Puma. Somehow it's a good idea in theory, but for one reason or another it never works out. I am thinking of the Merkur & Scorpio Ford brought over in the 80s, and more recently the Caddy Catera (an Opel) and the Pontiac GTO (a Holden). Either it isn't to US tastes, or quality drops when it's made over here, or in Mexico!, etc.

Part of it is US emissions and such.  Toyota didn't want to change the celica gt4 for US mainly because of emissions, at least what I heard.
Man, an all wheel drive celica would be more fun than an all wheel drive corolla!

[pointdablame]

Too bad they've dropped the Celica line entirely in favor of the tC

[SirPoonga]

But they put the celica engine in the corolla so that is still around....
And you can get an improved celica engine and tranny in the lotus elise

[TOK]

I'd say the one weakness of new models is the electric fuel pump in the tank. A mechanical pump was an easy swap on an old car, and I've dropped tanks on 3 of my cars and trucks to replace electric pumps.

yes, but you need it for fuel injection. because they run at higher pressure its much simpler to have electric than mechanical...

Yea, the logistics of it wasn't really my point. Just that it's one of the maintenance items that's more of a pain in newer cars. Lots of stuff in the newer cars is more time consuming, but its offset by how long the stuff lasts -like front wheel drive cars that have the rear cylinder bank crammed against the firewall. It makes the back plugs hard to get to, but now you can get 100,000 mile plugs instead of doing it at 30,000 or so on the old ones. The electric fuel pumps are kind of the exception to this. They have a shorter lifespan and are a big hassle on some cars.

[danny_galaga]

and also most cars are only intended to be owned for 5 years or so. you have been unlucky with fuel pumps but its not a common fault. once its not new its not the original owners problem anymore. unfortunately of course that means the next person who buys it will have to sort those things out. in the old days it was no big deal for most maintenance problems. so i guess the modern second-hand car buyer has to bear in mind that it tends to cost more to repair nowadays and that there is less they are able to do easily themselves.
until i can buy a new car again im going for very old (relatively) because i can fix almost anything on it in the driveway. probably a 70s or early 80s escort or corolla. then when i can ill play the big corporations game and buy a new car every 5 years or so...

[JODY]

Ford and GM have problems competing due to costs.

[TOK]

and also most cars are only intended to be owned for 5 years or so. you have been unlucky with fuel pumps but its not a common fault. once its not new its not the original owners problem anymore. unfortunately of course that means the next person who buys it will have to sort those things out. in the old days it was no big deal for most maintenance problems. so i guess the modern second-hand car buyer has to bear in mind that it tends to cost more to repair nowadays and that there is less they are able to do easily themselves.
until i can buy a new car again im going for very old (relatively) because i can fix almost anything on it in the driveway. probably a 70s or early 80s escort or corolla. then when i can ill play the big corporations game and buy a new car every 5 years or so...

I've had good luck with cars because I maintain them well, I've done a lot of fuel pumps because I've owned a lot of cars, and more than my fair share of beaters. I usually still have a couple of beaters around, but I also have one relatively new and one brand new pickup. One of the beaters is going to get replaced with a mid-90's Jeep Wrangler. That is a truck I know that tends to be less reliable than the norm, but I love them so it's worth it.

The thing I don't like with the cars you're considering is that they have a lot of emissions equipment on them, but they're also carbuerated. This usually means a mess of vacuum lines and valves that can get to be a pain in the butt. I had an 81 Escort that someone practically gave me because they couldn't get it to idle. It was a stick, so it required a veritable tap dance on the pedals to keep it going and not roll into the car behind you at a light. 
The problem ended up being a cracked 4 leg vacuum "T" back near the firewall. It was a bear to track down because the hissing was faint and sounded like it was coming from everywhere. When I found and fixed that, the car ran like a champ.
I sold it for more than I paid for it after driving it for two years.

Ask anyone that's worked on a twin carb Prelude about frustration. Honda's could be finicky beasts before fuel injection! 

[danny_galaga]

The thing I don't like with the cars you're considering is that they have a lot of emissions equipment on them, but they're also carbuerated. This usually means a mess of vacuum lines and valves that can get to be a pain in the butt. I had an 81 Escort that someone practically gave me because they couldn't get it to idle.

ahead of you there guy! australia was way behind the US in emissions laws, so we didnt get all those horrible intermediary steps of vacuum lines, etc until about the mid-80s (",). we only started using unleaded in 87. the upshot of that is although the price is right for cars around 85-90 they are really, really awful to work on like you say. before about maybe 82- no probs!

[VCS2600]

 There are stories of US models giving reliable service, but you get more of these good stories from Japanese brand cars. The Japanese manufacturers made, make mostly fuel efficient front drivers and by concentrating on this type of car, which most people want, were able to redesign their main models completely every 3/4 years. Rather than be like GM with something like the F body and keep it around for 10 years before a major redesign. You can't juggle too many designs when you're a car maker.

 CVCC Civic