The end of GM & Ford?

[VCS2600]

 You have GM & Ford's falling market share because higher gas prices have slowed sales of their precious trucks/big SUVs. Plus California's tightening of environmental laws and how the domestic automakers are complaining about how it will add 3 grand to the cost of a new car.

[paigeoliver]

I think the problem has been that domestic automakers have always made great BIG CARS and BIG TRUCKS. The quality and longetivity on their V8 models has always been top notch.

But, the Japanese automakers have always made great small cars.  Domestic small cars seem to be far behind foreign ones in quality and longevity.

If Detroit actually tried to make quality compacts then they would be fine, I just don't think they are trying. They can make V8s that last 250,000 miles every time and the Japanese makers can make 4 cylinders cars that do the same thing, so I don't see why Detroit can't make a good 4 cylinder car.

If they can't manage a good engine design then they should license a Honda or Toyota design (instead of the worthless Mitsubishi and random Korean designs they have licensed in the past).

I own the best of both worlds, GMs largest vehicle (Suburban) and Honda's smallest (70cc Motor scooter).

[TOK]

Neither is going to sink, because they have diverse investments, but it's time for the American auto makers to change their way of thinking. You mentioned the Cobalt, and it's a perfect example of GM's problem. 20 years ago, the Cavalier was a very popular small car. It was a bit unrefined, but it was inexpensive and decently reliable. Instead of updating and refining it every 3 or 4 years, GM just rolled with it basically unchanged. About 10 years in, they gave it an all new look but didn't change it in the ways that really mattered. They kept the underpowered noisy 4 banger and didn't do anything to improve the fit and finish of the car.
By the end, nobody but grandma's and young girls were considering the Cavalier.
That's not the only problem though. In the ensuing 20 years, whats the best thing they could come up with as a replacement? The Cobalt.
From 50 feet away, it's hard to distinguish from the Cavalier. Pop the hood and it gets worse... The same old 2.2 liter 4 banger that GM has been pushing in the the Saturns for the last 10 years.
The kicker is that GM is capable of buildng a world class car. The new Z-06 is going to be untouchable by anything within $100,000 of it's price.
Why do that, then let your mainstream car and truck lines flounder? I don't get it.
They've nailed themselves to putting that same 3.8 liter V6 in every car they make. Heck, they even launch an all new Buick, the car that is going to save Buick, and it's the same platform and engine as everything else.

Car & Driver said that "GM makes mediocre cars for people with mediocre expectations". I think that sums it up well. The cars will last and be reliable, but they're very uninspired both in design and performance.

Nearly same deal with the Focus as the Cavalier. It had quite a few issues when launched, but it had great styling and performance for it's market. 10 years later and its the exact same car with slightly different hood and headlights. They had a great thing and let it stagnate. They come out with the 500, and it's completely generic. Who is going to chose that over a 245 horse V6 Altima?

[fredster]

We do a lot of business for GM.

Here's what my company's ceo wrote today in his quarterly message

"It would be a tremendous loss for our company if GM were to file for barnkruptcy.  While not an immediate threat, I do think it could happen in the next few years.  For that reason we must continue to work especially hard to get new business..."

[GGKoul]

General Motors hasn't re-invented them selfs in AGES!  They are still producing over-valued cars that can't really complete with other car makers. 

In a couple of years Toyota will be the Number 1 Automaker in the world.  And they will be the Number 1 automaker with half the number models available when compared to GM.  Toyota makes a quality product that rates very high in reliability and resale value.  And GM just can't complete.

Another thing that is killing GM is the pension plan.  They are paying more for retirees pension plans then they are for there active employment base.  That's CRAZY!

Ford is doing a positive job in re-venting them selves.  Just look at their current lineup and you'll see they are moving forward with products the consumers want.  Also, Ford is doing a lot of cross platforms that ultimately lower the per vehicle costs.  As a Ford Focus is built on the same frame as a Volvo s50 and Mazda 3.  Same with the Freestyle, Mazda 6 and Volvo s60.

GM's days are numbered unless they can product cheap cars that the market wants.  And the funny thing is, this is the same way that the Japanese automotive companies used to build their marketshare in North America.

[mmmPeanutButter]

GM is done.  They spend way too much on health care and pensions.

[Stingray]

GM's main problem is that, aside from the Corvette, they make nothing interesteing. They have dropped the Camaro/ Firebird. Everything else is trucks and very, very, very bland cars. 'Stagnant' is the perfect word for GM. In the past ten years they have gone from being one of my favorite automakers to a brand that I wouldn't even consider if buying a new car. It's sad really.

Ford on the other hand is at least moving in the right direction IMO. The new Mustang is nothing short of breathtaking, which really revived that particular make. The Focus could use a similar kick in the pants design-wise, but I still feel like it's a good small car for the money. GM doesn't make anything that even comes close.

-S

[Ken Layton]

Actually today's cars, be they foreign or domestic, are just flimsy plastic pieces of crap with alot of useless junk you don't need put in them. Heck to change a burned out headlight on some cars you have to disassemble half the front of the car.

Give me a good old reliable (and simple) 1949 Plymouth any day.

[Stingray]

Do you actually own a 1949 Plymouth Ken? If so I'd love to see some pics. I do agree with your sentiment. My 1974 Mini is simplicity itself to work on. Modern cars can be a nightmare.

-S

[missioncontrol]

Ford on the other hand is at least moving in the right direction IMO. The new Mustang is nothing short of breathtaking,

-S

yes they are.......

have you seen the new convertable Mustang yet ??

it's awesome........

[MinerAl]

Ford is moving in the right direction, because their cars are re-bodied or re-badged Mazdas and Volvos.

[GGKoul]

Ford is moving in the right direction, because their cars are re-bodied or re-badged Mazdas and Volvos.

True... But I would buy a Mustang Convertible over a Volvo Convertible.

[ChadTower]

Of course, there are tons of people like me who don't care about high performance or style.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Plus, Ford now has to deal with the Wrath of the Christian Right: http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw116518_20050531.htm

Somewhere, some hillbilly is having the largest crisis of conscience in his lifetime.

mrC

[TOK]

Actually today's cars, be they foreign or domestic, are just flimsy plastic pieces of crap with alot of useless junk you don't need put in them. Heck to change a burned out headlight on some cars you have to disassemble half the front of the car.

Give me a good old reliable (and simple) 1949 Plymouth any day.

I totally disagree with this. Have you ever messed with an old 6 volt generator system with points and a carbeurator? Most of these old cars were in the junkyard before they ever reached 100,000 miles. It's nothing now to get 100,000 miles out of a car with just routine maintenance. There are dozens of cars in the Auto-Trader with 160,000+ miles that still run fine.
Electronics problems can be buggers to diagnose, but overall, new cars are so much better its almost incomprehensible.

[Stingray]

You can easily get 100,000 miles out of any car and always could if you do routine maintenance. Problem is, many, many people don't do anything to their car aside from fill the gas tank.

-S

[RayB]

You can easily get 200,000+ miles out of any Honda.

[pointdablame]

GM definitely needs to restructure itself, but people who see the company's demise within the next few years are smoking something VERY POTENT.  GM will not be going bankrupt in the near future, nor will it be completely destroyed like some have said.

Thye need to restructure... they IMHO, need to drop a few lines entirely, and possibly spin others off into independent companies.  They also need to worry about fixing the pension problem that currently costs GM ~$2400 PER VEHICLE that they sell.  And YES, they need to redesign their lineup... almost entirely. It would be nice to see something unique from them again.  I like the new styling of the Cobalt for example, but as stated... its just a new shell on a decades old platform.

They are not going in the crapper though.. anyone who thinks that is either uninformed, loves conspiracy theory books, or is just a bit off in the head

[KenToad]

In a couple of years Toyota will be the Number 1 Automaker in the world.  And they will be the Number 1 automaker with half the number models available when compared to GM.  Toyota makes a quality product that rates very high in reliability and resale value.  And GM just can't complete.

Another thing that is killing GM is the pension plan.  They are paying more for retirees pension plans then they are for there active employment base.  That's CRAZY!

They also need to worry about fixing the pension problem that currently costs GM ~$2400 PER VEHICLE that they sell.

Guys, explain your reasoning here for someone who doesn't follow this type of thing.  I thought the real problem with American car companies is that they're moving the plants to other countries where workers aren't unionized and get paid much less.  Wouldn't that account for them paying more in pension than in current labor?  Also, unions haven't had much power since the times when the company could just say, if you strike, we will close the plant and move.   

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Nailz]

Actually today's cars, be they foreign or domestic, are just flimsy plastic pieces of crap with alot of useless junk you don't need put in them. Heck to change a burned out headlight on some cars you have to disassemble half the front of the car.

Give me a good old reliable (and simple) 1949 Plymouth any day.

I totally disagree with this. Have you ever messed with an old 6 volt generator system with points and a carbeurator? Most of these old cars were in the junkyard before they ever reached 100,000 miles. It's nothing now to get 100,000 miles out of a car with just routine maintenance. There are dozens of cars in the Auto-Trader with 160,000+ miles that still run fine.
Electronics problems can be buggers to diagnose, but overall, new cars are so much better its almost incomprehensible.

I have to say that I can't even change my own oil anymore as everything is engineering to completely maximize the space underneath the engine.  I have a 95' Pathfinder, nothing great, but does it's job and has for 160K.  I can't change my oil, swap out a bad starter or an alternator, anything that used to be pretty simple to do.

My 65' Buick Skylark on the other hand I can get to everything, it's awesome.

But to be honest, give me a choice between the newer foreign and domestics, I will have to choose a foreign car, Japanese in particular.  I have owned  4, Civic, Accord, 4-Runner, and a Pathfinder, and the most I ever do to them is change the oil and take them in for routine maintenance.  I have friends with Fords and Chevies that are in CONSTANTLY to have work done.

God Bless America, but we aren't making great cars anymore...  when we do, I will start buying them again.  But i need something that runs, not something that I need a loaner car for all the time.

[Tailgunner]

GM definitely needs to restructure itself, but people who see the company's demise within the next few years are smoking something VERY POTENT.  GM will not be going bankrupt in the near future, nor will it be completely destroyed like some have said.

Thye need to restructure... they IMHO, need to drop a few lines entirely, and possibly spin others off into independent companies.  They also need to worry about fixing the pension problem that currently costs GM ~$2400 PER VEHICLE that they sell.  And YES, they need to redesign their lineup... almost entirely. It would be nice to see something unique from them again.  I like the new styling of the Cobalt for example, but as stated... its just a new shell on a decades old platform.

They are not going in the crapper though.. anyone who thinks that is either uninformed, loves conspiracy theory books, or is just a bit off in the head

GM manufacturers more of their parts in house than any other car maker. Rather than spinning off their car brands, they'd do better to spin off the subsidiaries like AC Delco, Allison, Hydra-matic, Hughes Electronics, ect. Part of GM's problem is they're locked into using the parts made by the subsidiaries, and can't contract out stuff to companies that'd make better parts for less money.

[TOK]

I have to say that I can't even change my own oil anymore as everything is engineering to completely maximize the space underneath the engine.  I have a 95' Pathfinder, nothing great, but does it's job and has for 160K.  I can't change my oil, swap out a bad starter or an alternator, anything that used to be pretty simple to do.

My 65' Buick Skylark on the other hand I can get to everything, it's awesome.

But to be honest, give me a choice between the newer foreign and domestics, I will have to choose a foreign car, Japanese in particular.  I have owned  4, Civic, Accord, 4-Runner, and a Pathfinder, and the most I ever do to them is change the oil and take them in for routine maintenance.  I have friends with Fords and Chevies that are in CONSTANTLY to have work done.

God Bless America, but we aren't making great cars anymore...  when we do, I will start buying them again.  But i need something that runs, not something that I need a loaner car for all the time.

Honestly, I don't understand how you can change the oil on an old car but not on a new one. The drain plug is still on the bottom, and filters are known maintenance items and they're typically easy to access. I have a Nissan Titan and it literally takes 15 minutes to change the oil. The filter is right in the front. I think you might have a fear of technology thing going on there.
I realize starter and alternator changing varies greatly by car, but I've owned a lot of cars and the last starter I changed was over 10 years ago on an 87 5 liter Mustang. These accessories are so much better than they were on the old cars, that you seldom have to do it.

I'd say the one weakness of new models is the electric fuel pump in the tank. A mechanical pump was an easy swap on an old car, and I've dropped tanks on 3 of my cars and trucks to replace electric pumps.

[Dartful Dodger]

Honestly, I don't understand how you can change the oil on an old car but not on a new one. The drain plug is still on the bottom, and filters are known maintenance items and they're typically easy to access.

In my Dart I have enough room to spin the oil filter off by hand.  On my Cavaliar I need a special tool, and I can't just spin the tool, I need to make a 1/4 turn twist, reset the tool, make another 1/4 turn twist, and so on.  It's not death, but it's very frustrating, and if it's cold or wet out, spending 20 bucks at Jiffy lube is very tempting.

[DrewKaree]

Well, the pensions are already set, to take them away or change them would violate several different laws and open them up to lawsuits that would cost them MORE than the pensions, and the reason they felt the need to move parts of production out of the country was to be able to pay off current levels and still keep the price of their cars competitive with other vehicles.

Notice I didn't say quality, but price.

All that said, anyone thinking they CAN'T produce a car as good as imports isn't using their heads.  The current imports are being made right here in these United States, they just have different procedures in place allowing for higher quality, and are willing to reinvest the money made in order to CONTINUE to make a better product for their customers.

My dad is one of those "can't buy one a dem furren cars, keep da money here at home, son" kinda guys.  I've argued this point so long with him, now it's just humorous to see the steam slowly build up when I tell him his Caddy was built in Mexico.  Maybe it IS just the engine, I dunno, but when you consider it's just a big push-car without that Mexican engine....and that's the line that usually starts him shouting at me

[TOK]

Honestly, I don't understand how you can change the oil on an old car but not on a new one. The drain plug is still on the bottom, and filters are known maintenance items and they're typically easy to access.

In my Dart I have enough room to spin the oil filter off by hand.  On my Cavaliar I need a special tool, and I can't just spin the tool, I need to make a 1/4 turn twist, reset the tool, make another 1/4 turn twist, and so on.  It's not death, but it's very frustrating, and if it's cold or wet out, spending 20 bucks at Jiffy lube is very tempting.

I hear ya, but there are also old cars that were maintenance headaches. I had a 440 Chrysler that you had to pull the wheels and fender liner off to swap the plugs because the engine was wedged in there so tight. If the oil filter is a real nightmare, there are companies that make relocating kits.
Besides being able to put the filter where you want it, you also get up to a quart more capacity and can also mount it in the air stream and have the filter act as an oil cooler.

[VCS2600]

 

domestic automakers have always made great BIG CARS and BIG TRUCKS. The quality and longetivity on their V8 models has always been top notch.

 That is so true. A friend just bought a 2004 Ford Crown Vic and it looks like a very nice car (for 24K Canadian) with all the features.

  He didn't consider the Focus because of the bad recall reputation that model has built up. It seems the Focus assembled in N.America doesn't have the same quality as those made in Europe. Can someone tell me why the Japanese can set up car plants in the US and maintain good quality, but when cars like BMWs & Mercedes and such are US built the quality isn't as good as the models made in the home market?

  Most of the money is with sales of normal cars, I think Honda proves the point there. The high performance versions of the Civic available in Japan aren't available in America, but the Civic still sells strongly. On the other hand, as said above, GM spends a lot on the Vette, which is a great car but doesn't do much for the bottom line.

  I think GM was keeping an eye on the AA airline case, maybe half hoping that if it filed for bankruptcy down the track it could avoid legacy costs through a court decision.

[DrewKaree]

Can someone tell me why the Japanese can set up car plants in the US and maintain good quality, but when cars like BMWs & Mercedes and such are US built the quality isn't as good as the models made in the home market?

Could be a lot of things, but I'd put money on procedures being different.  I'd bet quality control on things is more highly prized in the Japanese cars which translates into more checking on things to make sure they're correct. 

This isn't to say that others are making a car that is held together with spit and baling wire, but the tolerances are probably more lax or aren't checked as rigorously.  I'd also bet that people are more routinely let go for lax work at Japanese auto plants, which gets the point across even more effectively.

There's a reason General Motors isn't as popular as other manu's.  I bought a Sunbird long ago.  Picking up the Haynes manual for it, I realized I didn't merely own a Pontiac, I owned a Chevy (Cavalier) and a Cadillac (what was that low-priced model's name?  Crap DeVille?)

They're trying to save money on the wrong thing - serviceability - instead of making semi-unique dependable cars, selling them for a touch more, and making the VALUE of their cars higher, rather than the price.  I've since owned 2 Hondas (CRX and Prelude) and a Mazda and thought they had more character (AND features) and were nicer cars to own than any American cars I've ever owned other than my Suburban and my '76 Impala. 

Think about this too....do you seriously think you'll ever see the older car mods on foreign cars like you see with American cars (or their foreign equivalents, like the car Bones had and sold off like a fool )?  These newer cars are essentially "disposable" cars with little to no character making them worth keeping around.

[JoyMonkey]

Are cars like the Focus and Cobalt really as good as the imports 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Focus is a Ford Europe design. So it kind-of is an import in a way.

[pointdablame]

Guys, explain your reasoning here for someone who doesn't follow this type of thing.  I thought the real problem with American car companies is that they're moving the plants to other countries where workers aren't unionized and get paid much less.  Wouldn't that account for them paying more in pension than in current labor?  Also, unions haven't had much power since the times when the company could just say, if you strike, we will close the plant and move.   

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Cheers,
KenToad

The problem isn't really going overseas.  To an extent, it's working the opposite way... "foreign" cars are coming over here to be built.

The problem with the pension plan is this:  GM has what is considered a very good pension/medical plan.  They have for quite some time.  People are now living longer, and thus, GM has to pay out more to a larger base of retirees.  GM is also at a point now when a very large number of former workers are at the "sick age" where medical costs start to skyrocket.

When you add all this together, it equates to GM having a $2400 cost on EACH CAR THEY BUILD. Think about that for a second... each car they build... the price you see... $2400 goes to pension payments.  Toyota pays almost nothing for each car they build... something like $20-50.  That means out of the gate, Toyota has a $2350 cost advantage for a similar priced car... and that's not taking options, aesthetics/looks/style into account.  That is powerful, and is a large part of why GM is spinning its tires.

To another question that was asked: As far as the GM subsidiary issue.. that really doesn't affect the need to spin off or eliminate a car line.  It was stated that GM was contracted by these subsidiaries and can't pursue other companies.  THat's not true, and in fact they DO go elsewhere occasionally.  You have to realize though that the cost savings are WITH the subsidiaries.  By having an AC Delco.. you are saving money... not losing it.  The subsidiaries in theory can help.  The problem with spinning off subs is that they tank.

GM spun off Delphi.... Delphi is tanking.  Ford spun off Visteon... Visteon is tanking.  You now don't have those subs "bringing you down" but you also lose your cost savings.  Is it worth it? That's the question.

GM NEEDS to drop a line or two.  They are all the same.  There is no need to have 4 cars on the same platform with teh same general look with the same general features for similar prices.  Sure you can swap a part into your Pontiac, my Chevy, and Bob's Buick... but why?  They are creating competition that is unnecessary.  IMO, GMC can go... Buick can potentially go... even Pontiac can go.   And spin off Hummer.  Let GMAC save the asses of a few less companies instead of the current lineup of "same thing with a different cover" ideal they have currently.

[KenToad]

The problem isn't really going overseas.  To an extent, it's working the opposite way... "foreign" cars are coming over here to be built.

That's a very good rationale for buying the cars that are better and made here.

The problem with the pension plan is this: GM has what is considered a very good pension/medical plan. They have for quite some time. People are now living longer, and thus, GM has to pay out more to a larger base of retirees. GM is also at a point now when a very large number of former workers are at the "sick age" where medical costs start to skyrocket.

When you add all this together, it equates to GM having a $2400 cost on EACH CAR THEY BUILD. Think about that for a second... each car they build... the price you see... $2400 goes to pension payments. Toyota pays almost nothing for each car they build... something like $20-50. That means out of the gate, Toyota has a $2350 cost advantage for a similar priced car... and that's not taking options, aesthetics/looks/style into account. That is powerful, and is a large part of why GM is spinning its tires.

And this is an excellent rationale for a Single Payer Health Care Plan.  Cheers to Canada, Cuba and the rest of the civilized world. 

Thanks, Pointdablame, for the extended reply. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[KenToad]

Well, the pensions are already set, to take them away or change them would violate several different laws and open them up to lawsuits that would cost them MORE than the pensions, and the reason they felt the need to move parts of production out of the country was to be able to pay off current levels and still keep the price of their cars competitive with other vehicles.

Notice I didn't say quality, but price.

All that said, anyone thinking they CAN'T produce a car as good as imports isn't using their heads.  The current imports are being made right here in these United States, they just have different procedures in place allowing for higher quality, and are willing to reinvest the money made in order to CONTINUE to make a better product for their customers.

My dad is one of those "can't buy one a dem furren cars, keep da money here at home, son" kinda guys.  I've argued this point so long with him, now it's just humorous to see the steam slowly build up when I tell him his Caddy was built in Mexico.  Maybe it IS just the engine, I dunno, but when you consider it's just a big push-car without that Mexican engine....and that's the line that usually starts him shouting at me

Yeah, that's kind of more what I had always assumed GM and Ford were doing--brainwashing people like your father (no offense, Drew)  to believe that they're being patriotic by buying American brand names that aren't actually American at all.  Corporations hold no allegiance to any city or state.  They are driven by their charters to do only what is best for their owners.  Ownership of most multinational corporations is concentrated in the hands of the very few.  So, if one wants to keep the money circulating locally (or nationally, whatever your opinion of what America is), which I believe is the true germ of the buy USA trend, don't buy from multinational corporations who get huge tax breaks and don't even employ your people. 

Cheers,
KenToad 

[danny_galaga]

they just have to get with the times and stop making people believe they need bigger and bigger cars. of course tehy will have to work closely with the fast food giants to stop people eating so much- otherwise you need a big car just to squeeze that lard-arse in 

[VCS2600]

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Focus is a Ford Europe design. So it kind-of is an import in a way.

 Yes, and in much the same way AMC used to build the AMC Alliance in the 80s (it was actually a Renault). I suppose the question is how does a US built Focus stack up against say a Civic, or even a European built Golf?

 Whatever the reason for it, it's quite shocking when something like the US built Mercedes M class notched up one of the worst recall records of any car sold a few years back. Not much point in having a good design when you don't assemble the car properly.

  Badge engineering, having the same model with slight differences made sense when domestic car makers had most of the North American market. But, they just don't sell enough cars now to justify the different badges. They dropped Olds, which was sad, but it had to go. Although Oldsmobile did some very good engines for GM.

   I think the old Valiant was the Honda Accord of its day. Simple, frugal, reasonably sized. That's the ordinary kind of car GM and Ford should offer.

 

[SirPoonga]

Are cars like the Focus and Cobalt really as good as the imports 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Focus is a Ford Europe design. So it kind-of is an import in a way.

And the new focus has the mazda protoge engine, not the ztec.

I'd love to see Ford bring over the falcon or puma.

I'd love to see GM sell some opels over here too.  The speedster is one neat looking car.
You know the old geo prism is just a corolla.  you know a pontiac vibe is a toyota matrix.  GM should do more deals with toyota.

But then look how many SUVs toyota makes too.  It's not just US companies.  Its companies that sell in the US.

[KenToad]

But then look how many SUVs toyota makes too. It's not just US companies. Its companies that sell in the US.

I think the SUV's are popular because of the low US gas prices.  You don't see those things much in Europe, where gas prices are still 2-3 times higher than here.

Cheers,
KenToad 

[SirPoonga]

No, SUVs are popular, but not because of gas prices.  They are making hybrid SUVs now (see Ford Explorer).  Unfortunately, typical american, gotta have our big cars and trucks

Though now that I have a V6 (Camry) I don't know if I could go back to an I4 (Corolla).  It's just too much fun.  That's the other thing.  You try a more powerful car you get hooked.  Especially here where there is alot of highway driving.

That's why I want a more powerful motorcycle, so highway driving is smoother (and easier to merge with traffic).

[fredster]

The problem is profitiablity.

The Big three have big retiree problems and more money going out for healthcare all the time.  They want government funded healthcare to compete with the foreign markets that don't have the entitlements.

The other problem is that they are making too many SUV's.  They haven't worked to innovate in the smaller car market.

Here's a general plan for them for the summer:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/sales-bar12e_20050602.htm

[SirPoonga]

The other problem is that they are making too many SUV's.  They haven't worked to innovate in the smaller car market.

Well, not in the US.  You realize the big three own alot of the companies around the world....

SUVs are starting to be like the PT cruiser, a fad but longer lived than the PT.  They were a fad but with the rising gas prices I think are going to start looking at something else.

After watching Scientific American with Alan Alda I can't wait for hydrogen cars.  I'd even think aobut an electric because the torque would be alot of fun

The other thing is vehicles, in general, cost abit these days.  I want to have one brand new car in my life, I might end up leasing to do so.  I don't think I could ever afford a brand new car that's fun   Hence why I say go with motorcycle.  Cheap insurance, cheap maintainence, great milage, and best of all FUN!

[ErikRuud]

You know the old geo prism is just a corolla.  you know a pontiac vibe is a toyota matrix.  GM should do more deals with toyota.

I have a 1994 Geo Prizm. I bought it used a few years ago with about 20k mile on it.  It has the largest engine that they made for them.  It is a great little car.  I have better acceleration than half the imports with coffe can exhausts!  And I don't even have any deacls! 

The whole American/Foreign debate gets very tangled these days:

Many "American" cars are actually foreign designs or patforms. 
GM owns (or did own) 30% of Isuzu.  I was offered GMAC financing when I bought my Isuzu Amigo years ago. 

Many Fords are built in Mexico. 

At one point (I'm not sure if it is still tue)  ALL Honda Accords were built in the US, even the ones sold in Japan.

I used to work at a company that manufactured engine parts.  I got criticized by a coworker for not supporting America when I bought my 1989 Honda Prelude.  The Prelude was built in the US by US workers, and most of the parts were made by US suppliers.  The guy criticizing me was driving a Dodge Caravan with a V6 engine.  At that time the V6 engines in Caravans were made by Mitsubishi in Japan.

[SirPoonga]

well yeah, walk up to a new car and look at the sticker.  They say what percentage of the car's parts are form where.

Example, the Chevy Aveo is just a Daewoo.  The big three own most of the car companies out there.  They will use parts form whatever part of the company they want to use parts from.  The ford contour's transmission came from jaguar I think.  Like I siad earlier, ford put the protoge engine in the new focus.  Ford owns mazda.

A couple of the current Fords and some of the ones to come are just imports from their european division.  Same with GM.  They are international companies now, that just happen to start in the US.  But most of their cars are international.

However, GM does not own Toyota, that's just a deal they have in the US.

Actually, I have seen a turn where people are prefering Honda and Toyota over Chevy and Ford in the US.  I know a couple of people that have switched because they had better reliability.

It;s funny when shopping fo rcars.  Many people think 100k on a car is alot.  Bah.  Depends on the car I guess.  Any Honda and Toyota can last over 200k.  I had a corolla with 180k on it before I got in an accident.  My parents had a camry for 280k before the strut mounts rusted out.  A friend of mine had a first year civic that was going strong when he got rid of it a couple of years ago.  I just bought a used '92 camry v6 xle.  Has 130k on it.  Not a problem   However I am spoiling myself with the xle model.  Leather, power everything, moonroof, cruise, ahhhhhhh.  It was a southern car too so no or very little rust.  We'll see if it can last a winter up here and not get rust...  I don't think I could have a car anymore that doesn't have cruise or a moonroof.

You'll find a few "US" cars like that.  I see dodge reliants, buick centuries, ford rangers that are pretty dang old running around, but over all not too much.  I still see early 80s corollas and civics all over the place.  I will see maybe one chevy beretta driven by a high schooler in a month, where as when I was in high school they were all over the place.

Though part of it is how popular leasing has become too.  Alot of people lease these days because of how expensive cars are.  So you don't see older ones around too much because of that.