MAME emulation: the most poorly coded emulator

[ChadTower]

I suppose it would depend on the OS as well, for the paging.  I don't believe DOS does this, for example.  But for the most part my statement is true.

Yep.  Minus other, smaller, physical limitations like bus speed, you're right about the fact that removing some drivers isn't going to speed up MAME.  Emulation is very much a horsepower proposition, primarily but not exclusively driven by the CPU.

[RayB]

I think there's a paradigm problem here, and Pixel would understand if he were given a proper explanation rather than indirect arguments. Sometimes being specific will turn on that lightbulb over a person's head. Know what I mean?

So here's the plain and simple explanation PIXEL:

When the MAME devs started coding the emulators for specific games, they would often have to write "band-aid" fixes for certain parts of the hardware that couldn't be emulated properly. For example, they might have emulated the CPU for GALAGA, but the not the sound chip, so instead they had to trigger sound sample files. This is not true emulation (even though playing the game it LOOKED 100%, right?)

So then later, they emulate another game that uses the same sound chip and they get the sound chip emulation working. So in the name of 100% correct emulation, they go back and "fix" Galaga to now link in to the proper sound chip emulation. Oh, but what happens now? The emulation is now 30% slower because it is no longer running the sound "hack", but instead is running the correct sound chip emulation code.

Then sometimes it turns out that even though it's the same chip they are emulating, there were minor differences between different games, (such as the timers, or minor chip revisions) so one game might run correctly now with the new emulation code, but another would get "broken".

Now if you consider how many chips and other components each game circuit board has, there's many reasons why emulation could slow down with each revision. First they might emulate only the CPU and then use hacks to get the video and sound working. Then they would emulate the video chip(s). Then the sound chip(s). They then would replace hacks for timers, with accurate emulations of the timers. Perhaps there were RAM and ROM addressers, etc, etc, etc. With each CORRECT emulation of each of those components, that means there is more and more code to run, so of course things will slow down.

This is why Chad was harping about MAME's purpose being not to PLAY the games, but to properly EMULATE them.

So that is the WHY. And it makes perfect sense. Now go read your thread topic and ask yourself why that wasn't an invitation to get flamed?

~Ray B.

[Harry Potter]

Pixel sounds like a poster on MAME.net about 2 months ago. Same style of speech, same arrogance, same dissapearing trick once the ball got rolling.

Can't believe we're getting trolls in THIS forum.

Then again, there is Drew but he's funny once a month. 

[screaming]

So here's the plain and simple explanation PIXEL:

  This post should be appended to M14 in the MAME FAQ.  Thanks RayB! I'm a relative MAME veteran and this post helped me!

-sab

[lokki]

Every new version of MAME brings about small changes, minimal features. and the software is very more user friendly or functional. AND its also SLOW; with every new version they put out it should be faster then the older version, not slower.

Looks like you are also complaining that each new version has small changes. But do you realize that MAME is now pretty much on a monthly schedule?
How many other projects can you name add as many features a year.
Looks like there where over 600 new games added in the last 12 versions.
That looks pretty good to me

[JB]

The law is very clear on this matter and so is the morality.

Actually, the morality ISN'T very clear on the subject. Morality is a very personal thing.

MY morality says that if it's commercially available, I buy it or do without. If it becomes available after I download it, either through a re-release or remake, I buy it.
If I stumble upon a used copy of the game, or an older adaptation, I'll likely pick it up just because.

I've spoken with people that feel software costs too much and that makes them justified to steal it.

I know people who won't touch remakes, regardless of how faithful it is.

Obviously your morality says that it's always wrong.

But that's just yours. And I've presented 3 alternate moralities that are every bit as clear on the subject, but come to totally diffrent conclusions.




BTW, your BMW theft analogy is flawed. My downloading of Missile Command ROM images didn't make someone else's PCB disappear. All the Missile Command boards that haven't been destroyed are still out there.


I've also bought several versions of Missile Command.
The arcade version 3 times in various retro-gaming compilations, the 2600 game once in a retro-gaming compilation, 5 times in real carts, the 5200 version 3 times in real carts, and the PC remake once.
Meaning I legally own THIRTEEN diffrent copies of the game, eleven of which were intended as faithful recreations of the arcade game, and three of which are emulations of the arcade game on a PC using actual ROM images.

And if I prefer to play it in MAME instead of Atari: 80 Classic Games, well, I think I've bought the game enough times that it doesn't matter.
But that's another story entirely.

[Shape D.]

Actually, the morality ISN'T very clear on the subject. Morality is a very personal thing.

MY morality says that if it's commercially available, I buy it or do without. If it becomes available after I download it, either through a re-release or remake, I buy it.
If I stumble upon a used copy of the game, or an older adaptation, I'll likely pick it up just because.

I've spoken with people that feel software costs too much and that makes them justified to steal it.

I know people who won't touch remakes, regardless of how faithful it is.

Obviously your morality says that it's always wrong.

But that's just yours. And I've presented 3 alternate moralities that are every bit as clear on the subject, but come to totally diffrent conclusions.




BTW, your BMW theft analogy is flawed. My downloading of Missile Command ROM images didn't make someone else's PCB disappear. All the Missile Command boards that haven't been destroyed are still out there.


I've also bought several versions of Missile Command.
The arcade version 3 times in various retro-gaming compilations, the 2600 game once in a retro-gaming compilation, 5 times in real carts, the 5200 version 3 times in real carts, and the PC remake once.
Meaning I legally own THIRTEEN diffrent copies of the game, eleven of which were intended as faithful recreations of the arcade game, and three of which are emulations of the arcade game on a PC using actual ROM images.

And if I prefer to play it in MAME instead of Atari: 80 Classic Games, well, I think I've bought the game enough times that it doesn't matter.
But that's another story entirely.

Subzero? 

[PixelCloud]

Pixel sounds like a poster on MAME.net about 2 months ago. Same style of speech, same arrogance, same dissapearing trick once the ball got rolling.

Can't believe we're getting trolls in THIS forum.

Then again, there is Drew but he's funny once a month. 

so since i have to goto school and i have appointments i'm trolling? i cant spend a billion hours on here a day i'm sorry.

i understand peoples points...

[ChadTower]

I've also bought several versions of Missile Command.
The arcade version 3 times in various retro-gaming compilations, the 2600 game once in a retro-gaming compilation, 5 times in real carts, the 5200 version 3 times in real carts, and the PC remake once.
Meaning I legally own THIRTEEN diffrent copies of the game, eleven of which were intended as faithful recreations of the arcade game, and three of which are emulations of the arcade game on a PC using actual ROM images.

Okay, that's one game.  None of those, BTW, legally entitle you to a copy of the real arcade rom.  Every single one of those is a derivative work.  They are not the arcade PCB, they are not the same code, very unlikely to have been written by the same authors.  Owning an alternate version of a game does not entitle one to the arcade ROM no matter how bad people want it to do so.

[JB]

I've also bought several versions of Missile Command.
The arcade version 3 times in various retro-gaming compilations, the 2600 game once in a retro-gaming compilation, 5 times in real carts, the 5200 version 3 times in real carts, and the PC remake once.
Meaning I legally own THIRTEEN diffrent copies of the game, eleven of which were intended as faithful recreations of the arcade game, and three of which are emulations of the arcade game on a PC using actual ROM images.

Okay, that's one game. 

As an example.

None of those, BTW, legally entitle you to a copy of the real arcade rom.  Every single one of those is a derivative work.  They are not the arcade PCB, they are not the same code, very unlikely to have been written by the same authors. 

Actually, three of them ARE the same code.
Digital Eclipse does emulation, not ports.

I legally own three sets of ROM images. 2 of which I've not even got installed. I have the legal right to have THREE instances of Missile Command running at a time.


Of course, to legally use it in MAME instead of through the Digital Eclipse emulator, I'd have to disassemble "Missile Command.exe" and extract the ROM images myself.

Owning an alternate version of a game does not entitle one to the arcade ROM no matter how bad people want it to do so.

I AM aware of the legal standpoint. And have been for years. It's part of why I feel so strongly about buying ports, remakes, and reissues.

I've still bought the game 13 times. And bought the arcade game three times.

[DrewKaree]

Then again, there is Drew but he's funny once a month. 

I knew deep down you loved me 

If you can't code the game or have the know-how to make something better/faster and - key point here - you haven't paid a dime for the software AT ALL, you have every right to learn what you need to in order to get it to work to YOUR satisfaction.

If you have PAID MONEY for a program, you have the right to gripe about the aspects of the product you PAID FOR.

You've not paid for MAME, and seem to not have the slightest inclination to learn how to code a better version, therefore, it's just whining when complaining that someone won't give you what you want when you want it, and for free to boot.

Why has this become an issue about the legality, usefullness, blah blah blah? 

Do any of you EXPECT Chris to bow to your wishes and design a jukebox that fits your needs, for your PC?  It's a nice BONUS that he's here and available and is willing to TRY to implement some of our ideas in his program, but the bottom line is that we're talking about FREEWARE and the author of said freeware owes us JACK and SQUAT in improvements/fixes/speed issues.

Period. 

Stop making this about something other than freeware that someone doesn't like and is FREE to look elsewhere for programs that work, or do the work himself.

[PixelCloud]

Maybe we should just stop talking about this, clearly my interpetation of what MAME is for is different than the devs. Thats ok.

But to refue teh point about the community not being able to suggest improvements to OSS, that is jsut STUIPD.

Example... mysql is a free datebase, there are many problems that plague web developers when using mysql, but without these people telling teh devs at mysql about them they wouldnever be aware of the apparnet problems. And hence we have the "biggest release of mysql" coming uot soon with vast improvemnets to eveyrthing, and whats that? I can download it for free.

[Goz]

Pixel sounds like a poster on MAME.net about 2 months ago. Same style of speech, same arrogance, same dissapearing trick once the ball got rolling.

Can't believe we're getting trolls in THIS forum.

Then again, there is Drew but he's funny once a month. 

so since i have to goto school and i have appointments i'm trolling? i cant spend a billion hours on here a day i'm sorry.

i understand peoples points...

BlueOakleyz is that you?

[monkeybomb]

It is a little different, but it doesn't matter anyway.  People here get crazy if you go near MAME with anything but huge thanks.  ANY flaws as you may see them can't be mentioned here without getting creamed.  A while back someone posted a thread that said

what if mame could......

The person just wanted to play with ideas but even that wasn't permitted for very long. 

[mccoy178]

Society sucks.  Take this thread for example.

[Harry Potter]

But to refue teh point about the community not being able to suggest improvements to OSS, that is jsut STUIPD.

Example... mysql is a free datebase, there are many problems that plague web developers when using mysql, but without these people telling teh devs at mysql about them they wouldnever be aware of the apparnet problems. And hence we have the "biggest release of mysql" coming uot soon with vast improvemnets to eveyrthing, and whats that? I can download it for free.

You are thick. People can suggest improvements to MAME but since MAME is concerned with EMULATION ACCURACY and not SPEED, your suggestions are completely useless. Maybe one day when ALL gaming systems have been emulated perfectly and there are no more to add, they will optimise the code for a final release, ut I wouldn't hold my breath for that event.

As for claiming MAME gets slower: Did you know about 95% of all games in MAME are playable at 100% on current hardware?

The other 5% are thing like San Francisco rush, Gauntlet Legends, the STV games etc. which are quite Schei

[rchadd]

seems to me that anyone that dares to not bow and worship before the Lord God MAME and the arch druid mamedev's are immediately castigated.

i think it is valid for mere mame users to make constructive critisism or suggestions even when it is free software.

to say you have to learn coding and contribute to the project before you can speak is invalid.

from previous postings i have seen from people claiming to be mamedevs it seems to me that whilst they might be good at coding they certainly are missing certain people/communication skills when relating to "ungrateful" "whinging" users. i think they definitely have issues relating to ego and status.

don't get me wrong i am very grateful for all the mamedevs hard work but at the end of the day its only software. if any mamedev is forsaking their family life to add a new game drivers to mame that would be very sad situation.


 

[ChadTower]

i think it is valid for mere mame users to make constructive critisism or suggestions even when it is free software. 

This would be correct if he had offered constructive criticism.  There was nothing constructive about his criticism and there weren't any useful suggestions.  It was just criticism.   If he were criticizing a commercial project I wouldn't care, he paid and he's entitled to his criticism.  He didn't pay for MAME and that makes it different.

[rchadd]

This would be correct if he had offered constructive criticism.

[lokki]

Example... mysql is a free datebase, there are many problems that plague web developers when using mysql, but without these people telling teh devs at mysql about them they wouldnever be aware of the apparnet problems. And hence we have the "biggest release of mysql" coming uot soon with vast improvemnets to eveyrthing, and whats that? I can download it for free.

Funny you should mentioned MYSQL. They did listen and it only took 10 years for them to do so. Maybe in 10 years when MAME is done emulating all the arcade games they will work on your requests

Most important ever' MySQL reaches beta
 
The open source database company says it is 'fixing 10 years of criticism in one release', and is aiming at boosting enterprise take-up


http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39192964,00.htm

[ChadTower]

one advantage of open source projects is that inefficiencies in the code might be picked up by other projects contributors and corrected. but it is a fact of life that most software developers are interesting in adding new functionality instead of optimizing/fixing exisiting code.

Look.  He didn't offer anything constructive.  He came and said it's the worst coded emulator out there.  That's an insult.  He is biting the hand that feeds him.  Developers (like myself) do not like that, especially when they have worked this hard and long.  He came across ungrateful and spoiled and was treated as such.  You have to remember, the people working on MAME are doing it for free, in their spare time that they could be spending with their families or doing something more rewarding than providing free games for people who insult their work.  Constructive criticism is fine.  Insulting the work is not fine.  He was just plain disrespectful and you don't disrespect people who are doing a magnanimous thing for you.

[Shape D.]

Constructive criticism is fine.  Insulting the work is not fine.  He was just plain disrespectful and you don't disrespect people who are doing a magnanimous thing for you.

Amen

[lokki]

just because he has not spent money on the software doesn't mean he doesn't have an opinion and is not allowed to express it. whilst he (and I) have not spent any money on Mame, probably like many others here we have spent precious time and money on building a cab.

Yes we have all (or most of us here) spent money on our cabs, but that does not benefit the developers in any way. I wonder how many here have contributed to the the MAME dumping Project (which does benefit the MAME community)

MAME Dumping Project (edit by saint)

are you sure that mame code is 100% efficient? i'm bet there are modifications that could be made to the code to make it more efficient in execution without going against the "its only for documentation purposes" argument.

sometimes programmers get lazy, lack knowledge of certain coding techniques  or simply have bad coding habits which result in inefficient code. i have yet to meet the perfect programmer and doubt such a person actually exists. whilst the code might be optimal at module level, there might be an inherent inefficiency in the architecture design of the application that leads to poor performance.

one advantage of open source projects is that inefficiencies in the code might be picked up by other projects contributors and corrected. but it is a fact of life that most software developers are interesting in adding new functionality instead of optimizing/fixing exisiting code.

Finally some conversation about the subject of the thread.  Most of it is pretty
have you looked at the MAME code?
Most of the code is very well written I have learned a ton just by looking at the MAME code. This is not to say that there is not room for improvement there is here in there the hard part is making changes so that they do matter.
And you are wrong in stating that all developers are interested in adding new functionaliy instead of optimizing existing code.  I like to optimize code and have submitted several optimizations to MAME that are now part of it. Mainly because I know how to do optimize and I don't know how to add new games or fix bugs.  Another challenge when for optimizing MAME is that it would be possible to optimize MAME to run better on Pentium IV (and get a decent improvement) but these improvements would not benefit other architectures (Macs etc).

[rchadd]

I wonder if the Ultracade emulator is more efficient at running games than Mame?

It must be because if costs $$$ right?

[DarkKobold]

I've also bought several versions of Missile Command.
The arcade version 3 times in various retro-gaming compilations, the 2600 game once in a retro-gaming compilation, 5 times in real carts, the 5200 version 3 times in real carts, and the PC remake once.
Meaning I legally own THIRTEEN diffrent copies of the game, eleven of which were intended as faithful recreations of the arcade game, and three of which are emulations of the arcade game on a PC using actual ROM images.

Okay, that's one game.

[ChadTower]

He wasn't talking legal. He was talking moral. Morally, I feel entitled to a game I've bought regardless of the version, regardless of what the law says. Laws != Morals. They just try.

 

[Harry Potter]

And you are wrong in stating that all developers are interested in adding new functionaliy instead of optimizing existing code.  I like to optimize code and have submitted several optimizations to MAME that are now part of it. Mainly because I know how to do optimize and I don't know how to add new games or fix bugs.  Another challenge when for optimizing MAME is that it would be possible to optimize MAME to run better on Pentium IV (and get a decent improvement) but these improvements would not benefit other architectures (Macs etc).

Optimising is good and it does get done. Just look at the Seibu drivers.
The guy was carrying on like it was the dev's sworn duty to make all the games run 100% on a Pentium I just because he downloaded MAME. I think he needs to go and buy a 20ghz Pentium 12.

Besides, from experience, I cannot recall any game which has slowed down for me after a release. Then again, I don't play the 3D games much.

And who gives a Schei

[lokki]

There have been slow downs in MAME. But if a game used to run at 200 FPS and suddenly your computer can only run it a 100 FPS you won't care since your computer can still handle it.  (extreme example don't think something as dramatic has ever happened). So if you are using a brand new computer and upgrade frequently you will never notice. It is the older systems that have a problem.
If a 700MhZ could barely run Metalslug at 60 fps and a new version slows it down to 50 FPS people will notice.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, it's not like every other piece of software in the existance doesn't require more computing power with each successive release.

[RayB]

.. and the horse has just died.

[DrewKaree]

.. and the horse has just died.

kick it again daddy....I think I saw it move

[DarkKobold]

kick it again daddy....I think I saw it move

What is it with Drew Karee? I cry a tear every time my post is the last in a thread.... And yet, Drew strives to be the last person in a thread. I'd love to see #s of who has the most thread deaths attributed to their posts. For a while, I was sure I was the winner. 

Drew seems to have knocked me out in the title fight.

[shmokes]

Yoink!  I'll take that.

[DrewKaree]

Do you guys think you're playing with an amateur here?

Kobold, I still vote you as top thread killer, I just took over your title of thread ENDER....big difference, hold your head up high little camper  oops, I mean 

[Bones]

Yeah but why don't dogs have lips?

[RayB]

*NEEEIIIGGHHH!!!*

[Gunstar Hero]

(lights the bomb and runs for cover) 

[Goz]

Boobs and Bacon

 

[rchadd]

.

[saint]

I win.