MAME emulation: the most poorly coded emulator

[PixelCloud]

The thought crossed my mind the other day; when new software is released the goal is to make it more functional, better features, and faster. MAME is quite the opposite of what any developer is trying to accomplish.

Every new version of MAME brings about small changes, minimal features. and the software is very more user friendly or functional. AND its also SLOW; with every new version they put out it should be faster then the older version, not slower.

Why cant they add a functional controller configuration tool? A nice GUI? Why does MAME seem to be conuter productive to effective software development?

I love MAME as much as everyone else; but the software pisses me off.

/rant

[ChadTower]

Erm, how about you start paying for it, then?

Are you an actual software engineer?  If you were, you'd understand why most of what you just said is dumb.

[sc1103]

The thought crossed my mind the other day; when new software is released the goal is to make it more functional, better features, and faster. MAME is quite the opposite of what any developer is trying to accomplish.

MAME is not a piece of software for people to play in some cases *illegal Roms* MAME is used for archiving the disappearing hardware of various arcade games/cabinets/systems (whatever that word is).  In order to achieve the most precise emulation, our current systems may not be able to handle emulating certain games at full speed.  MAME is a documentation process, not an emulator solely for the purpose of running *illegal* games.

Why cant they add a functional controller configuration tool? A nice GUI? Why does MAME seem to be conuter productive to effective software development?

If MAMEdevs took the time to add all these to each standard build, the rate at which they add new games to MAME builds would decrease even more!  There are outside tools that allow you to do such and more (MAME32, Giveaway, etc.).

Please don't take offense at this posting.  Merely a couple of counterpoints 

[PixelCloud]

Erm, how about you start paying for it, then?

Are you an actual software engineer?  If you were, you'd understand why most of what you just said is dumb.

Care to explani then? Or are you jsut going to rebut with empty remarks.

And most devs that release free software like to add features and better their software. That is what OSS is all about.

[PixelCloud]

The thought crossed my mind the other day; when new software is released the goal is to make it more functional, better features, and faster. MAME is quite the opposite of what any developer is trying to accomplish.

MAME is not a piece of software for people to play in some cases *illegal Roms* MAME is used for archiving the disappearing hardware of various arcade games/cabinets/systems (whatever that word is).  In order to achieve the most precise emulation, our current systems may not be able to handle emulating certain games at full speed.  MAME is a documentation process, not an emulator solely for the purpose of running *illegal* games.


But as we all know it IS used to run *illegal* games, and in some cases *legal* games.  If that was really the case none of the games would be playable.

Why cant they add a functional controller configuration tool? A nice GUI? Why does MAME seem to be conuter productive to effective software development?

If MAMEdevs took the time to add all these to each standard build, the rate at which they add new games to MAME builds would decrease even more!  There are outside tools that allow you to do such and more (MAME32, Giveaway, etc.).

Please don't take offense at this posting.  Merely a couple of counterpoints 

Larger and fewer builds then. Larger updates > smaller updates (aslong as the update is warrented)

Significant changes are few and far between

I'm not trying to bash MAME or the devs (i love those guys) they do great work; i just want to see improvements, they would benefit everyone.

[Zakk]

Perhaps a more useful spot to voice your opinions on this subject would be the mame.net forums.

[PixelCloud]

Perhaps a more useful spot to voice your opinions on this subject would be the mame.net forums.  They at least could give your their reasonings. 

i suppose, i just want to talk about it really. I know how much there acutally is to do with MAME, its obviosly not just like coding a SNES emulator or whatnot. I know there is a great deal of work to do. But i think that at somepoint we should see a major overhaul to the code, and the MAME emulator should be packaged with a GUI. etc, etc.

[ChadTower]

Care to explani then? Or are you jsut going to rebut with empty remarks.

And most devs that release free software like to add features and better their software. That is what OSS is all about.

You clearly have no concept of how much work goes into MAME or other OSS.  You are one of those people who simply wants quality stuff free.  You also clearly don't understand MAME's actual purpose and seem to think that it has something to do with providing you with free games.  Hell, MAME isn't about playing the games at all in reality.

You want a major overhaul... why?  So that it works better for you?  So do it.  You do it.  THAT is what OSS is all about.  It's not about providing free stuff to ungrateful users.  It's about a community project in which people volunteer their professional skills.  If you want this to work in a certain manner so badly, you learn the skills and you make the changes.  At the very least you should be willing to donate so that someone else can dedicate more of their time to the project without having to stop supporting their family in the process.

MAME is really starting to bug me lately.  The user base has gone WAY BEYOND reason in expecting tons of free stuff, illegal stuff, stuff they never have any intention of buying.  These people aren't doing all this work so thousands of random people can play free arcade roms, but that is what MAME has turned into.

[GGKoul]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.

[PixelCloud]

Care to explani then? Or are you jsut going to rebut with empty remarks.

And most devs that release free software like to add features and better their software. That is what OSS is all about.

You clearly have no concept of how much work goes into MAME or other OSS.  You are one of those people who simply wants quality stuff free.  You also clearly don't understand MAME's actual purpose and seem to think that it has something to do with providing you with free games.  Hell, MAME isn't about playing the games at all in reality.

You want a major overhaul... why?  So that it works better for you?  So do it.  You do it.  THAT is what OSS is all about.  It's not about providing free stuff to ungrateful users.  It's about a community project in which people volunteer their professional skills.  If you want this to work in a certain manner so badly, you learn the skills and you make the changes.  At the very least you should be willing to donate so that someone else can dedicate more of their time to the project without having to stop supporting their family in the process.

MAME is really starting to bug me lately.  The user base has gone WAY BEYOND reason in expecting tons of free stuff, illegal stuff, stuff they never have any intention of buying.  These people aren't doing all this work so thousands of random people can play free arcade roms, but that is what MAME has turned into.

Cry about it somemore?

How about instead of bashing everything i say with flames, acutally add something useful to the conversation? If not get the <auto-censored> out of my thread.

EDIT: i suppose you own every rom you play?

[PixelCloud]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.  There are lots of them... just look.

That doesnt get past the point that it shouldn't make the software slower.

[GGKoul]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.

[Shape D.]

EDIT: i suppose you own every rom you play?

So you have a Mame program with 100's(?) of games...and you own every one as a PCB?

No, I don't have a MAME setup.

[PixelCloud]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.  There are lots of them... just look.

That doesnt get past the point that it shouldn't make the software slower.

I guess you don't work at a software company? 

Any new software enhancements usually means you should get a faster machine in order to run the lastest enhancements at the peak levels.  If this wasn't the case, then I should be able to run WinXP on my old IBM AT.

hmmm strange how windows xp ran faster on my comp than windows 2000, or 98 ever ran.

choose your examples wisely
EDIT: and we are dealing with software where speed ia a important factor and careful consideration should be put into it

[ChadTower]

My input IS useful.  It is from the point of view of the type of person you want to do this work for you.  If all you want to hear is "yes sir, I'm going to jump to it and ignore my kids for a month so that you can play your illegal games a tad faster", you're not going to hear that from me or any other professional.

Don't forget, just because you may not like the answer, doesn't mean it's invalid.

[PixelCloud]

My input IS useful.  It is from the point of view of the type of person you want to do this work for you.  If all you want to hear is "yes sir, I'm going to jump to it and ignore my kids for a month so that you can play your illegal games a tad faster", you're not going to hear that from me or any other professional.

Don't forget, just because you may not like the answer, doesn't mean it's invalid.

your input isnt valid becuase it doesnt address the issues at hand...

we are talking about MAME, NOT about me.

just because i said something you might not like to hear doesnt mean you automatically have the right o go off flaming me about things that dont even matter

[GGKoul]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.

[GGKoul]

My input IS useful.

[PixelCloud]

You're forgetting that the MAME devs are adding Arcade Drivers to the code inorder for the ONE software to play MANY roms.

If you don't like it, then remove the drivers you don't like and re-compile one for yourself.

As for GUI for MAME.  There are lots of them... just look.

That doesnt get past the point that it shouldn't make the software slower.

I guess you don't work at a software company? 

Any new software enhancements usually means you should get a faster machine in order to run the lastest enhancements at the peak levels.  If this wasn't the case, then I should be able to run WinXP on my old IBM AT.

hmmm strange how windows xp ran faster on my comp than windows 2000, or 98 ever ran.

choose your examples wisely
EDIT: and we are dealing with software where speed ia a important factor and careful consideration should be put into it

WinXP is much faster the 2000.   It's all in the design.  But it doesn't mean I can still run the software on older equipment. 

i didnt mean you to think i meant it in that sense. But if i upgrade to a newer version and the changelog doesnt have any significant changes to the codebase, AND i see a slowdown on the same computer. There has to be somethng wrong with that.

[saint]

Your whole premise is invalid Pixel -- MAME isn't meant to be playable software. That's a side affect of its goal. MAME is a documentation project. It's designed to document as many arcade games as the devs see fit before the games drop off into obscurity and disappear from bit-rot.

MAME devs will break functionality at times in their quest to more faithfully document the hardware/software.

MAME is written in C instead of something faster, say assembler, because it's a documentation project and not a game-playing project.

Being unhappy with it for not being more playable/friendly/speedy is like being unhappy with MAC-OS because it doesn't run Windows applications better. You're barking up the wrong tree.

--- saint

[GGKoul]

i didnt mean you to think i meant it in that sense. But if i upgrade to a newer version and the changelog doesnt have any significant changes to the codebase, AND i see a slowdown on the same computer. There has to be somethng wrong with that.

You don't get it.

[shmokes]

Yeah....think of it like this.  Obviously a modern PC is WAY MORE than capable of handling Cruis'n USA level graphics and sound.  Hell, N64 handled that fine.  MAME is not meant to be able to play Cruis'n USA, it is meant to emulate the hardware that originally ran it in the arcades.  MAME makes your computer pretend to be completely different hardware -- different processor architectures, different memory subsystems, etc.  It is deliberately inefficient.  They're nto trying to give you a playable experience, they're trying to give you a historically accurate documentation of arcade hardware.  If Midway wanted to release Cruis'n USA today they would port the game to the PC and modern PC's would be capable of running it at 1000 FPS. 

MAME is a Multiple Arcade Machine emulator, not a Multiple Arcade Game Emulator.  It's a significant difference, and completely explains why it is so inefficient at playing games.

And WinXP being faster than Win2000 (it obviously is not faster than Win98) is an exception, not the rule.  They're both Windows XP is just an optimized Windows 2000.  Both are running on the same core.  Adobe Photoshop CS has higher minimum requirements than Photoshop 7, which had higher than 6, which had higher than 5.5, etc.  MS Office 2003 has higher minimum requirements than 2002, which had higher than 2001.  Doom 3 has higher than Doom 2, WinXP has higher than Win 98 which has higher than Win 95.

[ChadTower]

Your whole premise is invalid Pixel -- MAME isn't meant to be playable software. That's a side affect of its goal. MAME is a documentation project. It's designed to document as many arcade games as the devs see fit before the games drop off into obscurity and disappear from bit-rot.

That's pretty much the point I'm trying to drive home for him.  It's NOT a game playing system.  The fact that he is very likely trying to use it for illegal purposes, without paying a dime to anyone, just makes his complaints so much worse. 

Unfortunately, he probably represents far more of the MAME userbase than I do now.  It kind of makes me sick and is making me consider moving away from the application altogether.

[ChadTower]

EDIT: i suppose you own every rom you play?

Oh, hadn't seen this, and I have said it here as recently as last week.  I do not have a MAME setup, so yes, I own every ROM I play.  I have MAME hardware that is quite nice but I came to realize that I want to respect IP and put the MAME hardware on the shelf until I have another use for it.  I haven't used an emulator in a couple of years at least for other than code development and testing.

[danny_galaga]

yes, its supposed to be a documentation project, but who here DOESNT have it so that they can play it. if not, why build a cabinet for it? just leave it on a hard drive or some dvds and lock it up somewhere. pixel is making a valid comment, although as others have said maybe he could make his suggestions to the devs.

i think most of the slowness etc comes about because of how much mame supports. perhaps a solution would be to have an option to break it up into a couple of chunks- say all games up to 1990 or so (maybe call it MAME classic) , and then one for 1990 to 2000 and then a third. although having said that where would you make the breaks? i like one or two games from 91-92 so even then id still need two 'mames'.

im very happy with version 78 (in a way it is MY 'mame classic') as it is fast enough and plays all the games im interested in so none of this effects me as such.

[DaveMMR]

(...jumping in on the conversation late...)

I don't know what you're talking about Pixie Cloud.  MAME is a great program.  And why are you so angry about your non-enjoyment of it?  You didn't have to spend a dime on it (not including, of course, internet connection fees). 

It's no wonder why programmers are always so mad (I came up with that conclusion after reading a tirade-filled readme file).  People are always harassing them for personalized help, inane features, and impossibly speedy updates with little thanks (and definately no money) in return.  Then you and your ilk will spend $50 on some retail game with more bugs than a... err... uh... Roach Motel (groan)... and happily play it and tell all your friends how awesome it is became the magazine article says "it Rocks!"

Finally, be happy with how far computers have come that you can actually play the real arcade game (a side effect according to MAME documents, yes, but a nice one).  I remember a world where we had to make due with the Colecovision versions.  Even the NES couldn't fit that cement factory level in their version of Donkey Kong.         

[TalkingOctopus]

I love MAME.

[monkeybomb]

I don't understand what some of the fuss is?  This non-sense about

[paigeoliver]

The "mame is documentation" bit is a complete crock, writing something in a text file does not make it true. I have read all the text related to the original project, I have read the personal websites and usenet postings from the developer. Mame is NOT about documentatio.

[JB]

The "mame is documentation" bit is a complete crock, writing something in a text file does not make it true. I have read all the text related to the original project, I have read the personal websites and usenet postings from the developer. Mame is NOT about documentatio.

Particularly given how they play with the controller emulation to make games playable without exotic setups.

[Daniel270]

I don't really want to be on the negative side of the "documentation" argument... I see it as a legit point... however...if it's strictly that then

1) Why make the program publicly available?

2) Why distribute the ROMs?

[SOAPboy]

Care to explani then? Or are you jsut going to rebut with empty remarks.

And most devs that release free software like to add features and better their software. That is what OSS is all about.

You clearly have no concept of how much work goes into MAME or other OSS.

[menace]

perhaps a solution would be to have an option to break it up into a couple of chunks- say all games up to 1990 or so (maybe call it MAME classic) , and then one for 1990 to 2000 and then a third. although having said that where would you make the breaks?

The mame build for the Gamepark console did this and I think it was an awesome solution to get around slowdown's due to one large build.  Is there a technical reason why this couldn't be done?  with mamewah and other programs supporting multiple emu's seamlessly it seems like it would be an optimal solution?  what am I missing?

[Trenchbroom]

Don't forget another reason why MAME is written in C (and, hence, is inherently slower than it could be)--portability. 

Back in 1999 all the talk in the scene was about Retrocade.  Retrocade was gonna be the next MAME, but better because the developers were going to include all of the dirty hacks and write in X86 Assembly so that people could play advanced games on their low spec PC (their 486's, if you can believe that).

And it worked--go find a copy of DOS Retrocade and fire up Asteroids Deluxe (with backdrop...something else the Retrocade team pioneered) on a 486 DX4 100 someday.  Pretty damn impressive. 

I remember thinking that Retrocade was going to be excellent, just what I needed on my crap P150 machine.  But I also remember thinking that Retrocade was going to be a flash in the pan--a one year flash, a five year flash...but a short term fix (as it was, it was EXTREMELY short term fix, but that's another story).

The MAME devs chose to write strictly in C, never using machine specific Assembly hacks so that the program could be ported over to every system out there.  Also, many developers for MAME were Mac users who would not have come onboard to develop for MAME if it was targeted for PC users only.  This allowed for maximum team effort, maximum manpower (think of the thousands of hours of coding for this free program--unbelievable!) and for us, maximum fun.

All of this means that MAME will probably be around forever in one form or another.  Thanks to it's singular focus (whether or not you believe the "documentation" front is irrelevant) in 20 years when we are all jacking code directly into the Sony Cell v3.0 processors stashed in our brains we will still be able to play Pacman on the backs of our eyelids in all of it's beautiful low res glory.

[SirPeale]

You can make builds with just a few drivers.  They're called 'tiny builds' but they don't make the system any faster. 

Emulation is purely MHz based.  The faster the computer, the better your game will run.  It's taking hardware calls from another machine, interpeting them in software, then outputting that interpetation to the screen and speakers.

It's been said that you need 10x the speed processor for each 1MHz, and that seems fairly accurate.

Documentation project aside, the Mame project strives for as accurate emulation as possible.  That means *no* hacks.  There are still some in there, not necessarily to get the game playable, but to help learn exactly what makes that piece of hardware tick.

There *are* emulators that take advantage of speed hacks and the like to play awesome on slower machines.  Raine and VAntAGE come to mind.  If you're looking to bash out a game without caring about how accurate it is to the arcade original, those are your guys.  Mame's not perfect by any stretch, but it's getting more accurate with every release. 

Look at Galaga.  It's been 'playable' just about forever.  But you had to rely on samples for some sound effects, and the video was just a teese off.  They kept working on it, and now, viola! it's just about arcade accurate.

[ChadTower]

The thing that gets to me the most is the sense of entitlement most users seem to have.

[shmokes]

What Peale said is what I'm talking about.  I don't think many people here, including the documentation people, think that the MAME devs don't play games or want us to play them.  But it's pretty clear that they ARE serious about accurately documenting the hardware and that this is largely the reason that 10 year old games play like molasses.

[nipsmg]

Exactly.

MAME is about emulating as accurately as possible. 

Dedicated emulators (like Zinc, U64, etc) use shortcuts to get the games to run quickly on modern systems, bypassing video hardware emulation and translating graphics to directx/OpenGl, etc. 

When a driver initially hits MAME, sometimes shortcuts are used.  As the drivers are corrected to create more accurate emulation, sometimes the side effect is a slowdown.

Also, don't forget mame is a MONSTER.  It's impressive to me that with the insane amount of drivers it has and games it handles that it runs as well as it does.   

Of course the developers want to play games, but I agree, the accuracy is actually what slows things down. 

And your original statement about the goal of software developers to make more optimized and faster software doesn't really fit in almost ANY scenario (besides maybe the Operating System).  Look at almost any commercial package (office, photoshop, IM Clients, web browsers).  If the only driving requirement was a speed increase, we'd all be using Excel 1.0 or Lotus 1-2-3 for spreadsheets, or MultiMate for word processing.  Unfortunately, what usually happens, is people demand more functionality, more features, and are willing to sacrifice speed as the cost.  Otherwise, I should be able to run Office 2003 on my 486 (I probably could, but I'd want to commit suicide within 10 minutes).  Of course you should always try to write tight and optimized code, but when you're adding an insane amount of features to a relatively small program (thousands of games on hundreds of different types of hardware all rolled into one small package) you're unfortunately going to have to give up some speed as a side-effect.

You're not a devloper, are you?

[ChadTower]

You can make builds with just a few drivers.  They're called 'tiny builds' but they don't make the system any faster. 

Emulation is purely MHz based.  The faster the computer, the better your game will run.  It's taking hardware calls from another machine, interpeting them in software, then outputting that interpetation to the screen and speakers.

That's not entirely accurate.  Given different amounts of available RAM, the same build can run very different on one machine (with identical processors) than it does on another.  If it starts to run up against physical RAM limits it will turn to virtual RAM and start using the HD as overflow... now, if you eliminate the possibility of running into contention of physical memory, you are correct.

I still don't understand, and not one person has made a statement even addressing it, why so many users feel so entitled to these things that others worked hard to create.

[SirPeale]

That's not entirely accurate.  Given different amounts of available RAM, the same build can run very different on one machine (with identical processors) than it does on another.  If it starts to run up against physical RAM limits it will turn to virtual RAM and start using the HD as overflow... now, if you eliminate the possibility of running into contention of physical memory, you are correct.

I suppose it would depend on the OS as well, for the paging.  I don't believe DOS does this, for example.  But for the most part my statement is true.