Schiavo rumblings

[daywane]

Well I hope if things ever go for me as bad as it is for her. Kill me.
there its in print.
just plain kill me.
thats all I have to say.
oops. Saint.. I agree. My wife knows what to do. No one else knows me like my wife.
I trust her and her trust is in no better hands than mine.

[GGKoul]

Latest--->http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7283607/?GT1=6305

[GGKoul]

Brain cells can be regenerated, the technology is new.

[fredster]

Zero_Hour,
I agree. I'm hoping it is over for her, and it happens quickly and painlessly.

GGKoul,
It's adult Stem Cell research in that particular article, that's unlimited.  Use all the adult stem cells you want.

There is no limit on stem cell research anyway. 

The limit is on the federal funding of embryonic stem cells.  The embryonic cells used have to be of cultures that existed at the time of the limit.  If you have your own funding, you can use any stem cells you want.

California passed a funding bill last election cycle to fund embryonic stem cell research on it's own. 

There's no law against stem cell research, just limits on federal funding.  Don't believe everything on the CBC.

[Zero_Hour]

The stem cell article was a good find fredster. It's a shame the research is still in such an early stage. I hate when science/industry is asked to put timelines on when "things will be ready" - they seem to always underestimate the time frame.

I'm still waiting for my flying car, and they've been promising that one since before I was born. 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

ignoring the fact that 47 Dems voted with the "rethugs" in the House

I didn't ignore that, I pointed out my disappointment that Dems didn't wholely reject this blatant pandering game. Still doesn't changed the fact that this is a completely partisan Republican issue. They own it. Just because they're to yellow-bellied to take responsibility, doesn't mean that they aren't responsible. You know how it works, you never hold them accountable for anything. You are a member of the party of Frist (R), DeLay (R), Hastert (R)...I hope you like the company of snakes. They led the charge. Not the Dems.

Most of them, intelligently, stayed out of the way and let the Republican pull out their own feeding tubes, so to speak. A good deal of the Republicans in congress that "care so deeply" for her, never even took the time to learn how to pronounce her name correctly for their speeches.

You've tried to equate Terri Schiavo's case to Bush's carrying out of the law in Texas, and with the war on terror.

It's more than that, it's the hypocrisy of, on one hand bashing gays in defense of the "sanctity of marriage", then ignoring that very same "sanctity of marriage" when trying to rip a wife away from a husband trying to carry out her last wish solely to pander to the religious right. I equate it with the hypocrisy of claiming to support a "culture of life" opposed to the "slow, torturous death" of this "as healthy as you or I" invalid, while supporting, nay encouraging the torture of terror "suspects" in Gitmo and "civilains" in Iraq's Abu Gharib (Bush promoted the guy (Gonzales) that advised on the derailing of Geneva Conventions)

You make some silly point to Dartful while doing exactly that which you carp about

The thing you miss is I don't claim to be a member of any religion that purports, "let those without sin cast the first stone." It's just another example of the rampant hypocrisy feastering in the conservative right. I haven't judged any family member in this case. Just the Republican opportunist that would so callously take advantage of them.

It sounds as if you think anyone questioning you to be out to get you.

It's more like I expect I arguing against disingenuous apologists who'll look for *any* excuse to avoid discussing the topic at hand. Hey! Wait, your reply just provided a perfect example. Thanks!

I hope you're done with your living will - the Religious Right appreciate you complying with their ultimate goal!  GOTCHA!    

Their ultimate goal was to throw red meat to the extremist ultra-conservative religious base by exploiting a family's personal tragedy by furthering their anti-abortion agenda at the cost of destroying state's rights. That the American public saw through this phony ploy, and are trending toward defending themselves against this kind of exploitation (by either family or government) by creating a living will, is just a positive side effect.

GOTCHA, indeed!



mrC

[fredster]

They did that already dude.

[Zero_Hour]

They did that already dude.  In 1972.

The Ford Pinto was converted.

Now that was funny.

[fredster]

MrC,

Don't break this into some Gitmo thing, you are wavering. After all,

It's more like I expect I arguing against disingenuous apologists who'll look for *any* excuse to avoid discussing the topic at hand.

.

I guess I see it now.  We were discussing Terri Shiavo, and you were discussing the republicans. NOT the same thing.  Come on man. Come on. Your people didn't fight it.  I'd be a little more than "disappointed" if I were you.  Where's the equivalent outrage?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Don't break this into some Gitmo thing, you are wavering.

You honestly don't see any hypocrisy present in a group of people screaming bloody murder over the "torturous death" of one individual but then turn a blind eye to the fact that 108 prisoners in captivity in Iraq were killed by mostly "violent causes" in a War that they overwhelmingly support?

You know how many U.S. POW's were killed in captivity during the ENTIRE Vietnam war? 114. From all causes.

[Sources:
http://www.eiis.net/cmart/vietwarstats.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml]

Now, is Schiavo part of the war on terror, no. Are the people who'd claim to be "pro-life" and "anti-torture" (in her case) the same people? It would seem, yes. Is that a moral conflict? Should be.

This is a culture war and the side that opposes my beliefs claims to have a higher moral standard than me. They should be called out as the hypocrites they are, every chance we get. They are the ones claiming Terri's tragedy as their own. Not me, and not the party I currently support.

They made this political. Not me, and not the party I support. To let these blatant hypocrisys go unchecked...is wrong.


mrC

[fredster]

Torture is cutting people arms and legs off. Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc.  Torture is extreme pain that causes organs to stop functioning.  Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation.  It was traced to the source, a really wierd chick and guy on 3rd shift.  It is NOT systemic.

The Government is trying to extract information from people who have no other goal in life than to strap bombs on themselves and blow up people around them.  They can't withhold thier TV priviliges to get the info.  They have to do deal with extreme people with extreme measues.

What was the other answer? Just keep asking them? What is the alternative?  All the stuff Clinton did after the first Terrorist Bombing? Call a cop? Have lawyers present and put together a case for each one?

Did you know I once had a job that would allow me only 4 hours of sleep per day, not necessarily all at once.  Where I had to keep moving for 72 hours?  Where I had to go for a week at a time without a shower and sleep on the ground? I was forced to march for 10-20 miles a day carrying huge packs.  Where if I made a mistake I could go to jail for the rest of my life?  That's the life of a soldier MrC. 

There are rules of conduct in love and war.  One was love of a parent. The other is the war on terror. It's not inconsistent. We are treating soldiers like soldiers and loved ones like loved ones.
 
All these people who caused this harm to these prisoners were criminals. They will pay for what they have done.  It's against their general orders and against the credo they were taught.  It's not systemic.

We have to do this to protect ourselves, and we hold our selves to a high standard.  But we are still human, and mistakes were made, perhaps on both issues. 

But we have to protect ourselves and we have to keep living and moving on. 

[DrewKaree]

Fredster, it's been 15 years and for the first 8 years they appear to have tried everything to get Terri better and have spent the past 7 years fighting this issue in court.

From whatever sources you can find, that is not true.  For the first perhaps 2 years, care was given, some therapy was started, progress seemed to be made by Terri.  It was all abruptly terminated when the lawsuit was won.  Also, almost half of her trust fund was used to pay the legal fees for this case, rather than be used for her treatment and potential rehabilitation, which Schiavo denied her.  Again, the denial of any theraputic measures was prohibited by Schiavo years before he recalled Terri saying she'd want to be killed if something like this happened to her.

With the amount of media attention this is getting, I assume if there was any hope for her to get better.  Someone out there would have stepped forward to say I can help or this is what I could do to get her better.

Again I point to Schiavo refusing therapy for her before he recalled her remarks on this.

I wonder what would happen if the millionaire offered the parents 5 million to walk away?

That is an EXCELLENT point, and I wish it would happen.  Right-to-die groups have been working in this case for a while now, and it would be an interesting monkey wrench to throw in the works. 

I guess the question left is:

     What is your definition of life support?

[DrewKaree]

The religious fanatics can somehow coerce people to turn out in record numbers to give an election to someone based on a moral issue, but can't whip 'em up into a lather on this?  What kind of crap power is that where they can't turn it on and off at will?  Sheesh.....if this keeps up, people will be forced to come to the conclusion that others are able to think for themselves or some other such nonsense! 

You've made it impossible to miss that you don't claim to be a member of any religion, but your error is in telling us that Dartful is a member of a "religion that purports, "let those without sin cast the first stone.""

You're using your views of that majority to judge one man based on your notions of him.  The doctrine of his religion may also not include that precept, as I don't recall Dartful EVER telling us what he believes.  It again leads back to you holding someone to a standard you don't feel you have to follow.

Now, try and follow what's posted.  The joke wasn't about Elected Officials You Despise, it was about you doing exactly what the Religious Right want to have happen in cases like this - make your wishes known and put them in writing beforehand.  You can't even do a decent GOTCHA! anymore!  And you think FREDSTER is the one slipping 

I hope you're done with your living will - the Religious Right appreciate you complying with their ultimate goal! GOTCHA!

Their ultimate goal was to throw red meat to the extremist ultra-conservative religious base

Interesting that you can equate this case with the war, but have no problems with claiming "victory" based on something you "feel", that words don't back up, but there can be two explanations, and you're choosing to believe yours is the correct view.

That the American public saw through this phony ploy, and are trending toward defending themselves against this kind of exploitation (by either family or government)

It very well might be that "phony ploy" that people agree with, that would cause them to draft a living will.  Seems as if people are choosing to make their wishes known via living wills for the opposite reasons you cite, as well.  They wish to leave a record so that they won't be killed against their wishes.

And I'll go on assuming Bush is responsible for all the good happening in the Middle East. 

I look forward to your "DK you're wrong and daft, let me demonstrably prove how by not clearing up the issue one bit" reply

/Fez :  Good day sir.





I said good day!

[DrewKaree]

One of the more comprehensive collections of stories on this


That's a link to a BUNCH of links of stories they've done as far back as '02, I believe.  I dunno how far back they go, I haven't read all of them yet, but I've got a fair number of them under my belt.

Well, I believe this to be it for her.  Not sure when exactly she'll die, but seems as if it will be it.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Torture is cutting people arms and legs off. Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc.  Torture is extreme pain that causes organs to stop functioning.  Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation.  It was traced to the source, a really wierd chick and guy on 3rd shift.  It is NOT systemic.

Some would argue that the act of removing the Geneva Conventions from the equation, a choice made by the Bush administration and present in the recommendations of one, Alberto Gonzales, recently promoted to Secretary of State, is the very REASON these types of acts were allowed to have occured, nay, encouraged.

In other words, the "few bad apples" theory is bullsh!t.

The Government is trying to extract information from people who have no other goal in life than to strap bombs on themselves and blow up people around them.  They can't withhold thier TV priviliges to get the info.  They have to do deal with extreme people with extreme measues.

There have been numerous studies that show extreme rendition DOES NOT WORK. It leads to false information and/or compromised information, and in a majority of cases is less productive than other less violent measures. Believe me, I want to torture the guilty, but not at the price of destroying the innocent in lieu of *finding* the guilty.

What was the other answer? Just keep asking them? What is the alternative?  All the stuff Clinton did after the first Terrorist Bombing? Call a cop? Have lawyers present and put together a case for each one?

Every major player in the first World Trade Center bombing is now locked being bars, and is no longer a threat to our country thanks to this approach. The "Mastermind" Ramzi Yousef, The "Blind" Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman and NINE others. All within three years.

On the other hand, Osama is still free and still a danger to our nation. Zarqawi is still free and a danger to our nation. Mullah Omar is still free and a danger to our nation. All within three years.

One approach took cops and lawyers and succeded. The other approach (Iraq=War on Terror) took $300+ billion, 1,500+ soldiers killed, 150,000+ overseas, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians and hasn't captured a single major player involved in the 2nd World Trade Center attacks (9/11).

HINT: Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and we are not arguing which president was resonsible. Rather, I'm talking about success in capturing those who attacked us, within a certain timeframe.

But we have to protect ourselves and we have to keep living and moving on. 

Initially I didn't want to address the morality/ethics of torture, but rather stick to the hypocrisy of supporting one form while opposing another. The people that support Terri's "right to life" are on the news day after day, describing the horrors she faces with starvation, while at the same time remain supportive of the people that allowed a system in which the very horrors you originally described (Torture is killing their family in front of them, raping their wives, etc.) was taking place, and some believe *still* taking place in Gitmo and elsewhere, since our government has been shipping people to countries that are well versed in torture.

I don't agree that this isn't systemic and convicting a few grunts doesn't convince otherwise. But that is besides the point.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

fredster,

When I talk about hypocrisy, I also mean things like this:

NY Times, 3/23/05:
Among them was Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma and a family practice doctor, who said in an interview, 'I don't think you have to examine her. All you have to do is look at her on TV. Any doctor with any conscience can look at her and know that she does not have a terminal disease and know that she has some function.'

Tulsa World, 7/20/98:
[In] an interview after [Coburn]'s panel appearance, he conceded the issue of caring for a terminally ill patient brings with it complex questions and is not always simple. For example, under certain circumstances when there is no hope of recovery, he said physicians should have the option of withholding nutrients and water from a dying patient. Coburn said he has done that in the past. 'If somebody does not want a feeding tube, I won't put a feeding tube down,' he said.

mrC

[Grasshopper]

Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation.

I'm glad I didn't go to your college.

Edit: grammar.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Gitmo was people stacking people naked more like a college frat initiation.

I glad I didn't go to your college.

It explains a lot about fredster though. I think I understand him better now.

Plus, that happened in Abu Gharib in Iraq, not Gitmo and it's a cold-hearted, callous thing to say if they are innocent. A lot more happened than stacking people naked, (one man died while hanging from his wrists) show some compassion why don't ya'...a lot of these people held there were released, for christsakes, because they were held for no reason. These weren't the terrorists we were all programmed to see.

edited by saint: No more shock pictures! Link to these if you want, or put them in a thread that clearly states to people what they'll find within.
Picture of Iraqi prisoner, possibly deceased
Picture of deceased Iraqi prisoner with jubilant American soldier standing over
End of edit by saint

So a vegatative women, having her body peacefully shut down*, is somehow worse?


mrC
* For the record, I tend to side with the majority of doctors that have stated she won't feel any pain because that portion of the brain is gone. Beyond that, I believe the body inherently shuts down the nervous system at some point to degrade the amount of pain it would feel in a state like this. Plus, she won't die of "starvation", but rather "dehydration". That's the reason people on hunger-strikes (Ghandi) still drink water. You can go a long time without food, but water is a necessity. Finally, I'd rather advocate injection in her case, but as Florida law (based on religious fundies pandering) doesn't allow for that...removing the feeding tube is really the best, and only, option available.

[Dartful Dodger]

I glad I didn't go to your college.

I is glad me wasn't gone to you is college.

 

[shmokes]

All your college is belong to us.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

She's not even dead yet, and the fundies are already angry. I think the GOP really has the tiger by the tail on this one. The backlash begins.

Gov. Bush Cancels Appearance at Good Friday Service for Fear of Facing Schiavo Supporters
To: National Desk
Contact: Rev. Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition [phone number removed]

[Link: http://www.earnedmedia.org/cdc0325.htm]



mrC

[DrewKaree]

There isn't a winning proposition for him since the courts agreed with Mike.

He's probably going to become the Republican's version of John Kerry.

[Chris]

He's probably going to become the Republican's version of John Kerry.

I'm not sure I understand what this means... 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

CNN is reporting that the FBI has arrested a North Carolina man for offering, via the internet, a reward of $200,000 for the murder of Michael Schiavo, and an additional $50,000 for the murder of Judge Greer.

"Right-to-lifers" really crack me up...Irony is dead. It choked to death on it's own vomit.


mrC

[DrewKaree]

From Todd Webb:

His byline link
     "If one good thing comes out of this fiasco, it will be more people drawing up living wills. Seriously, that will dispel the arguments that are sure to follow about what to do with you."

[DrewKaree]

CNN is reporting that the FBI has arrested a North Carolina man for offering, via the internet, a reward of $200,000 for the murder of Michael Schiavo, and an additional $50,000 for the murder of Judge Greer.

"Right-to-lifers" really crack me up...Irony is dead. It choked to death on it's own vomit.

Relax.  Someday they'll try to pass legislation to make actions like that legal someday also.  You may not be alive to see that day, but they'll have argued over pulling your plug long before. 

If it makes you feel all warm and tingly inside that you've "converted" me, I'll be leading the fight to have your plug pulled   Are you currently on a plug now, or should I just start gathering materials for the court?

Dartful, care to take a road trip?  I'll pick ya up on the drive around the big pond there.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Dartful, care to take a road trip?  I'll pick ya up on the drive around the big pond there.

Make sure he knows what your vehicle looks like:



mrC

[DrewKaree]

*insert Napoleon Dynamite voice*

That?  Dude, that's my sweet ride!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Alright, so the Schiavo case is coming to it's inevitable end. If you agree with the courts decision, then Terri is getting her wish. She'll be at peace soon.

That being said, the political fallout from this horrible spectacle will be around for some time to come.

One last thing that I want to share, something I think will come into play after this first stage is over (If the media is worth anything), is this: Tom Delay, the leading advocate for "saving" Terri (apparently from her own wishes), in 1988 pulled the plug on his OWN FATHER.

CANYON LAKE, Texas

[Crazy Cooter]

That doesn't surprise me in the least,
  It's all part of the American Motto:
    "Do as we say, not as we do."

[Crazy Cooter]

Looks like the parents are still in denial about what is going on:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/
"A spokesman for the Schindlers denied a report from David Gibbs III, their lead lawyer, who told CBS

[DrewKaree]

It's just pathetic to see you blithely dismiss the glaring differences in these cases.

DeLay's case (nice link too, I'll do the same ) was regarding "oxygen equipment".  Shindler was being starved.  She had no such problem breathing, and we have no idea if she was or wasn't able to swallow in order to sustain herself because Greer disallowed it, and hearsay, while allowed in deciding if she wanted to die, wasn't allowed in deciding if she could swallow food.  DeLay's comments of what's happening with Shindler are hypocritical?  Try starving your dog to death in Florida, see how that goes.

You ought to write political ads too, Mr Half-the-story.  In Shindler's case, there was dispute by many as to what Terri's wishes were.  The reason it's in dispute is that they're working off of the changed testimony of Schiavo.  In the malpractice suit, he testified that he would need this money for the long-term care Terri would require.  Once he won the malpractice judegement, he now conveniently "remembered" that Terri said she wouldn't want to live like this in that long ago "conversation".

In DeLay's case, you're trying to pin the blame on him because he's the figurehead here.  What you fail to inform everyone else on, is this:

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old widowed mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew

[DrewKaree]

I can't do it.  I can't sit here and let people wonder if you truly ARE a partisan hack or if it's just namecalling, so here's MrC's story he's talking about.  Read the story for yourself, see if any of you can figure out why there was a lawsuite
See if any of you can see the glaring inconsistencies of MrC's charges and the depths to which he's willing to sink.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story

Most notably, and since I realize some won't check that link out, I'll quote it here:

"The preliminary decision to withhold dialysis and other treatments fell to Maxine along with Randall and her daughter Tena

[DrewKaree]

Looks like the parents are still in denial about what is going on:

I suppose it just depends on what part of the news you choose to focus on:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050327/D893IBGO0.html

"The Schindlers said they would stop asking courts to intervene after the Florida Supreme Court rejected their most recent appeal Saturday. The parents were rebuffed repeatedly by federal courts after Congress passed an extraordinary law last weekend allowing the case to be heard by federal judges."

Maybe if it were your child, you'd be more apt able to speak to their "power of denial".

[Dartful Dodger]

Looks like the parents are still in denial about what is going on:

Maybe if it were your child, you'd be more apt to speak to their "power of denial".

No one can deny that her body is still alive.

Her parents will continue to keep her alive as she continues to live.

[Zero_Hour]

The Schindlers are in denial though. Much as we have pointed out that Michael Schiavo has flip flopped on the point of what Terri's wishes were - so too, have the Schindlers flip-flopped on the condition of their daughter. Again going back to the report of the most recently appointed GAL, the schindlers had acknowledged repeatedly that their daughter was in a "persistant vegetative state", something that they now do not acknowledge.  Truly, opinions do vary.

I really see no reason to try and argue this episode in our governance with other cases that may or may not be related. The simple fact - the one we can't deny regardless of our feelings on the matter is this:

The case was run through all possible avenues including the appeals process, including an appeal to the U.S. Supreme court which declined to hear the case. Our Congress took the extrordinary step of demanding that the case be considered again (that seems akin to "double jeopardy" in a criminal case) - which flies in the face of just about everything I ever learned about how the branches of government are intended to balance each other.

We can argue about the validity of hearsay evidence all we want, but the bottom line is that the courts found it admisible, and obviously on appeal, nobody found a reason to overturn that decision. I do feel sorry for all parties involved, simply because most of us have no desire to have the attention of a media circus thrust upon us. When you decide to litigate though, you sahould damn well be prepared for the consequences of a loss.

[Crazy Cooter]

 
Drew that article you linked shows their denial.

Also, in your quote: "The Schindlers said they would stop asking courts to intervene after the Florida Supreme Court rejected their most recent appeal Saturday."

They've been through the whole judicial system (and the executive branch somehow ).
It's to the point now where the courts won't even let them stand in front of a judge anymore.  They don't accept the results from any doctor that has actually done a full diagnosis.  They don't accept the fact that her brain is all juice.  They're in denial.  This didn't happen yesterday, it happened 15 years ago.  That's a loooooooooooooong time to not acknowledge reality.  It isn't healthy.

[Dartful Dodger]

This didn't happen yesterday, it happened 15 years ago.

[Chris]

The people that are upset over Gore losing are still complaining, they won

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It's just pathetic to see you blithely dismiss the glaring differences in these cases.
BLAH BLAH BLAH *Apologist rant* BLAH *Apologist Rant*

Drew,

I am not suprised in the least that you see no irony in the similarities and that you'd immeditely jump to DeLay's defense. You are a member of the Party of DeLay. To admit his hypocrisy is to admit your own.

DeLay's case (nice link too, I'll do the same Roll Eyes ) was regarding "oxygen equipment".  Shindler was being starved.

Both involve life sustaining equipment and a hypocritical blowhard named Tom Delay.

"There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew