Schiavo rumblings

[Crazy Cooter]

Your daughter tells you that she and her husband had a talk about living wills. You raised her not to be a quitter, and she thinks that pulling the plug is a cowards way out. You don't agree with her, but she thinks it's like suicide without having to tie a noose, but her husband told her:
"Keeping me alive in that state is horrific."

"Being kept alive in a situation like that seems so horrible that it should be obvious, a normal person would not want it done to them."

"Pulling a feeding tube isn't as barbaric as people think."

"Pull the plug and let nature take its course."

Then you daughter tells you she agreed with him, because he was making her feel stupid.

Now she's in a comma and her husband wants to pull the plug.

LOL.  Where was your source for this "info"?
How about this:
She wanted the plug pulled.  Her parents don't.  Her husband wants to fulfill her wishes.  End of story.  Has anyone come up with an actual motive for this guy to be doing this for some other reason?

[saint]

Peterson felt his wife had to drown.
Spousal rights to speak for a spouse are not absolute.

This is a patently ridiculous statement. Murdering your spouse does not equate to speaking for your spouse.

All of you rooting for her death, can rejoice.
The courts investigated this case and decided she would want to die.

For me personally, I was not rooting for her death. I was rooting for her right to choose. Two entirely different things.

[Dartful Dodger]

She wanted the plug pulled.

[fredster]

What he is saying is that there is lots of doubt in the public court that these were her wishes.

That's the dispute.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

What if she's 7 days away from waking up and making a complete recovery, but instead she starves to death in 6?

Have you even LOOKED at the CAT scan of Terri's skull?

Just so we are clear: MOST OF HER BRAIN IS GONE! IT HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH SPINAL FLUID!!! BRAIN MATTER DOESN'T GROW BACK.

Even microscopic neural damage can wreck havoc on a person's motor skills and memory, Terri on the other hand is COMPLETELY MISSING THE MAJORITY OF HER BRAIN! How can you even suppose a recovery of any kind, let alone a *ROFL* "complete recovery?"

Jesus H. Christ...you can't POSSIBLY believe the things you type, can you? Seriously? No, really...SERIOUSLY??




Note: Dark areas are holes in the brain that have been replaced by fluid.



mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

I have to *sigh* Side with Shmokes.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

If he was a good person he would have taken the money and donated it to her favorite charity in her name.  She then would be suffering for a cause...

He DID. She was the charity. Almost all the money was used to care for her. He even asked the family to donate the remainder TO A CHARITY, and they refused.

Who the hell gave you the right to judge him, or *anybody* for that matter? Isn't that supposed to be against your religion?

How wrong do you have to be before you admit it? This is getting ridiculous.

mrC

[fredster]

Dodger you have a point.

I was siding with Shmokes because he's a sociopathic heathen.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Looks like this is finally over: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html

For anyone really interested in the complete backstory regaring this whole ordeal, I HIGHLY recommend reading the following report, linked in the paragraph below:

"After Florida passed

[fredster]

I read that through.

It shows he had doctors say she was dying and the doctors from the parents weren't very convincing.  Then it details the law.

It's long and wordy for a "summary". 

It does detail the early days.  What's surpsing is the allegation that the parents agreed with Schiavo for the first few years and even introduced other women to Michael.

That's interesting.

Then the families became estranged after the Money came into play.  He says it was them, they say it was him.

He said/she said.

This document doesn't offer any more conclusive evidence that Terri said she wanted to go.

It does offer insight that the Husband tried pretty hard to help her for some time.   It doen't clearly define the way this is being paid off either, or what will happen afterward. 

Who's gonna write the book do you think? The Husband or the Parents.

I got $5 on the parents.  Anybody take that?

[DrewKaree]

My guess is that the judges will not touch this and keep passing it around until Terri is dead.  Then there will be no story.  I believe the rest of the money will be donated to some kind of charity or fund for people like Terri.  The parents will be heartbroken and the husband will move on. IMHO.

I think you've hit it on the head there.  What I wonder is, will the legislation passed be used in the next case like this?  I have heard conflicting reports as to why the court won't look at/follow the legislation passed. 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

This document doesn't offer any more conclusive evidence that Terri said she wanted to go.

Did you happen to see this part:

"The hearings and testimony before the trial court leading to the decision to discontinue artificial life support included admitted hearsay from Theresa

[Zero_Hour]

I read that through.

It shows he had doctors say she was dying and the doctors from the parents weren't very convincing.  Then it details the law.

Particularly, The Schindlers Neurosurgeon made numerous claims of rehabilitating cases worse than Theresa's, but could not provide any facts to back up his claim.

It's long and wordy for a "summary".

It's pretty short, for a summary of over 30,000 pages of legal/medical records.

It does detail the early days.  What's surpsing is the allegation that the parents agreed with Schiavo for the first few years and even introduced other women to Michael.

I don't think that them getting along in the early years is an allegation, I think it is presented as fact. Also, it does mention Michael introducing women he was dating to the Schindlers, but makes no mention of them introducing him to women. It does say that they encouraged him to "get on with his life"

Then the families became estranged after the Money came into play.  He says it was them, they say it was him.

He said/she said.

Yes, it also says that the parents tried to have Michael removed as gaurdian, and that ultimately that first try was dismissed with prejudice (no appeal). It also says that there were other attempts to have Michale removed, but that all attempts failed.

This document doesn't offer any more conclusive evidence that Terri said she wanted to go.

That's because there is no more convincing evidence. Everything has already been heard in court. and it all comes back to the credibility of hearsay.

It does offer insight that the Husband tried pretty hard to help her for some time.   It doen't clearly define the way this is being paid off either, or what will happen afterward.

There were 2 settlements from the malpractice suit. $300,000 went to Michael, $750,000 went into a trust for Theresa's care.  It doesn't mention what would happen if Theresa died and money was still in the trust.

Who's gonna write the book do you think? The Husband or the Parents.

I got $5 on the parents.  Anybody take that?

I suspect the parents will go with a movie of the week. 

And so far a judge and an appelate panel have ruled on the matter since the law was passed. If that's sitting on it / passing it around then I'm not sure what else they were supposed to do.

I too am interested to see what effect the legislation will have (if any) on future cases.

[DrewKaree]

What he is saying is that there is lots of doubt in the public court that these were her wishes.

That's the dispute.  No doubt most people agree that if this were her wish, then so be it.  The dispute is lots of people don't think it was her choice.

I think you've clarified it perfectly.

I have to *sigh* Side with Shmokes.  I think that if he was as big an ass as the media made him out to be he would have took the money and ran.

Now I know you've made accusations in the past that shmokes is a big ass, but could you please provide sources for your claim that the media is making him out to be one too?  That just seems like slander.

[shmokes]

He hadn't received offers of money to walk away from her until just recently.  He'd look like a lowlife crook if he took it now, and he would have to relinquish guardianship of her, opening up the possibility of tests to try to determine if she got to this state through what he claimed, or if foul play were involved. 

Since he has guardianship of her, he has also chosen to cremate the body, so any possibility of finding these things out go right in the ashcan as well.

I take out of this your belief that she may be in her state because of deliberate actions on Terri's husband's part.  You didn't say murder, but if he deliberately caused her initial collapse (her heart was stopped and paramedics brought her back with a defibrilator (spelling?), then yeah, you believe that he is capable of murder.  Why else were you asking for an autopsy.

You also have indicated multiple times, including in that post, that you believe he is in this for the trust fund money.  My point is that if he is slimy enough to kill his wife (and psychic enough to know that she'll get brought back to life and then have bad treatment that will lead to a $1 million dollar malpractice award) then he's not going to bawk at the bad press that would follow his acceptance of $5 or $10 million.  Like he's worried about having people people think he's slimy???  Think of all the ultra right-wing gun nuts that are plotting his execution as we speak 

To make a long story short, you seem to believe that he may have deliberately put Terri in this postition (obvious attempted murder), that he is a lowlife scumbag for fathering children with another lady, that the only reason he wants to pull the plug is for money -- a GRADE A, lowlife, pond-scum, slimeball.  But, for some inexplicable reason, you think he's above walking away from it filthy rich because he doesn't want people to think poorly of him.  I don't buy it. 

As for doing the autopsy, yeah there are discomforts.  It's unconstitutional search & seizure for one.  It's no different than the police knocking on your door and saying, "We know that drugs have been sold in your neighborhood.  We have no evidence suggesting that you sold them, but we'd like to come in and search your house to make sure.  Hey, if you're innocent, what discomforts are you going to face?"

[shmokes]

I have to *sigh* Side with Shmokes.

OH MY!!!!!  Is it too late to change my vote?   

[shmokes]

Peterson felt his wife had to drown.
Spousal rights to speak for a spouse are not absolute.

Darful, seriously.....

Even the people on your side know that your Scott Peterson analogy is retarded.  There's no parallel.  Even if Scott Peterson's wife had a living will saying that she would not want to live in Terri Shiavo's state there would be no useful analogy that could be drawn.  WTF?  Are you delusional?

Are you suggesting that Scott Peterson's defense rested not on his innocence, but on his claim that she had expressed her wish to be killed and dumped in the sea? 

[Dartful Dodger]

Are you suggesting that Scott Peterson's defense rested not on his innocence, but on his claim that she had expressed her wish to be killed and dumped in the sea?

[shmokes]

Scott Peterson's case has nothing to do, whatsoever with speaking for your spouse.

It has nothing to do with Guardianship. 

It has nothing to do, in fact, with the Terri Shiavo case.

[Dartful Dodger]

Scott Peterson's case has nothing to do, whatsoever with speaking for your spouse.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

It's easy to see this from the husband

[GGKoul]

Latest news ---> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7273739/

[DrewKaree]

I have to *sigh* Side with Shmokes.

OH MY!!!!!  Is it too late to change my vote?   

No, but you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Either fredster would agree with you, I would, or Dartful would.

You're stuck.   

[fredster]

Zero_Hour,

When I said "wordy" I ment the report used dictionary definitions to make points.  Pretty strange for an executive report.

You're right.  I miss read the passage -

It took Michael a long time to
consider the prospect of getting on with his life

[DrewKaree]

MrC, is that Terri's brain scan? Where in the world did you get Terri's Brain scan?  That could be my mother in law's.
 

I can't believe you passed up the opportuni....nevermind, I'll do it myself.  I'm amazed at you fredster.  You're slipping.  It's your old age.  I hope you have a living will, too.  Your quality of life is going right downhill.

*inserted due to fredster's brain fart*
".....Where in the world did you get Terri's Brain scan?  That could be my mother in law's "buddy" shmokes!
 

Well, I believe tomorrow (Thursday) will be the last and final chance to have the feeding tube reinserted.  I'm also putting my money on the parents to have a book deal in the works, if not written, within the year.  If not, I'll be glad to be wrong, if right, I'll think they're just as bad as Schiavo, and I'll always wonder what Terri's wishes truly were.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Did you notice the report was pretty one sided? I didn't see any quotes from the parents, as if they didn't participate in the writing of this report.  It also points to the cause of this as an accident, not a malpractice.

Nobody "participated" in the writing of this report. It is an independent analysis from a independent (non-biased) court appointed adviser/guardian who wrote the report for Jeb Bush. I stated that when I posted the link.

For what it's worth, I imagine the parents aren't as prominent in the report because the husband was more prominent in the care-giving. I read in the report, and I've heard confirmed elsewhere, that over 13 years, she hadn't suffered any significant bed sores. I had a cousin; very dear to me, who was quadriplegic (he has since died from complications)...even with our overly attentive family...he still developed bed sores. I know you've probably also experienced it, but health care providers are not always the most thorough or attentive people either (their plates are often full), so if left solely to them, most patients facing long-term care will develop sores.

Terri hasn't. The administrators managed-care facility considered Michael Schiavo to be a tremendously attentive husband. They jokingly called him, the facilities "Worst Nightmare." To me, it seems he has done a more than thorough job of caring for his wife in the past. This vilification he's facing by the "right-to-lifers" and the Washington Republicans, again to me, could be the most shameful aspect of this whole ordeal.

MrC, is that Terri's brain scan? Where in the world did you get Terri's Brain scan?  That could be my mother in law's.

It's not your mother in law's. Where do I get these things? I do my research. A lot. It's a pain in the @ss, but I argue with integrity at stake.

Mrs. Schiavo's CAT scan is from the University of Miami Ethics Progams Shiavo resource. I sourced it when I first posted the images (visible on pg 2 of this thread). I always try to provide links and references for the things I post here that need substantiating. Keep an eye out, it's always there. I try to make it easy and post it in the same format.  Picture, then a link underneath (ie: [via: link])

Not being smarmy here, but you're slippin'...it's no fun arguing with you when your watching TV and debating at the same time. Focus, man! You're missing some pretty glaring stuff.




mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

I see a TV special on its way... This crap is too much.  Jeb Bush wants to be her guardian, yet George Bush signed that law in Texas.  WAAAY to much politics involved here.  I put $5 down saying the parents make a mint off this one.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I put $5 down saying the parents make a mint off this one.

Same here. The husband's life has probably been destroyed, the ReTHUGlicans have effectively marketed him as a shallow heartless killer. Imagine walking down the street if you were him. I feel really bad for this guy if he doesn't deserve it.

mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

The saddest part is this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7273739/page/3/

[DrewKaree]

I put $5 down saying the parents make a mint off this one.

Same here. The husband's life has probably been destroyed, the ReTHUGlicans have effectively marketed him as a shallow heartless killer. Imagine walking down the street if you were him. I feel really bad for this guy if he doesn't deserve it.

mrC

[JB]

-edit:
The more I think about it, I wonder if the parents just never accepted the whole situation and now they're actually seeing what condition she is in and coming to terms with it.

Bingo.

Only they still aren't coming to terms with it. They think if they stick the feeding tube in, she'll jump back up in another week or 2.

[Zero_Hour]

Fredster,

I think the "one-sidedness" of the report comes largely that a majority of it is summarizing the past court actions which largely went against the parents. There was one passage from the report that I missed earlier that I think is particularly relevant - and a bit disturbing, to me anyway...

Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state.

[GGKoul]

I see a TV special on its way... This crap is too much.  Jeb Bush wants to be her guardian, yet George Bush signed that law in Texas.  WAAAY to much politics involved here.  I put $5 down saying the parents make a mint off this one.

Sadly, Nobody wants to make a bad PR move ...

[shmokes]

I wonder less about when the parents will accept the reality of Terri's condition than when Dartful will accept it.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I wonder less about when the parents will accept the reality of Terri's condition than when Dartful will accept it.

ROFL!  *Applause*

Sincerely,

mr.Curmudgeon
Founder - Shmokes FanClub!

[SirPeale]

[DrewKaree]

WOW!  MrC, you never cease to amaze!

We get a link from you:

Where were thay for the past 15 years? Why jump in *now* at the last minute? Here's why:

"ABC News has obtained talking points circulated among Republican senators explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them: "This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited..." and "This is a great political issue... this is a tough issue for Democrats." (via ABCnews)

And you provide more links:

Read the despicable Talking Points. How many Right Wing ditto-heads have parroted these exact words over the past 7 days? Why? Because, just like you, they care more about their party than they care about people.

They go on to throw more against the wall to see what sticks

"EXCLUSIVE: GOP's Schiavo Talking Points Revealed In Full
Here are the GOP's talking points on Schiavo that garnered so much attention over the weekend. Rumor has it that Rick Santorum's office wrote these talking points - blah blah blah"
     which of course, you "worked your ass off" to make ensure you weren't offering yet another Rather-ism.

Since we're dealing in rumor, I'll give you my own rumor mill.  When it comes to memos, it's a wonder you ever report on them anymore.  This one seems to be headed the way of CBS: GOP memo questioned

You've spoken of

This is a Republican thing. The bill that Bush signed, in the middle of the night after flying BACK to the WH for the sideshow, passed congress with a voice vote - ONLY THREE Republican senators were present.

ignoring the fact that 47 Dems voted with the "rethugs" in the House (btw, what do you label the "idiots" who vote with those "rethugs"?) and that a voice vote was done in the Senate, which got this bill passed sometime around MIDNIGHT-ish, and that this was done because they were...stay with me here....trying to get this voted on as quickly as possible to have it signed into law if it passed.

You've tried to equate Terri Schiavo's case to Bush's carrying out of the law in Texas, and with the war on terror.

You make some silly point to Dartful while doing exactly that which you carp about - to the parents, the people who might disagree with your point of view, Bush

Who the hell gave you the right to judge him, or *anybody* for that matter? Isn't that supposed to be against your religion?

....I know I'm missing someone, but I can't keep track of all the people you yourself judge....well, other than yourself, that is.

Your links are often so suspect, it's about the only reason people have for going to them - to see just what you've chosen to ignore in your very own defense of positions!  What's amazing to me is that fredster didn't see your link, and you can't for the life of you figure out why anyone would question you, after all you laid it out pretty clearly:

Where do I get these things? I do my research. A lot. It's a pain in the @ss, but I argue with integrity at stake.

Arguing with integrity at stake?  It sounds as if you think anyone questioning you to be out to get you.  It sounds more like sanctimony that you argue under, your very survival at stake.  I hope you're done with your living will - the Religious Right appreciate you complying with their ultimate goal!  GOTCHA!    

And to think, all they had to do to get you to bend to their will was to make you think it was to save yourself from the dreaded "THEM".  a-BOO!

Now to work on making you vote conservative in '08....lemme get "the machine" to work on this, toot-sweet.

[fredster]

MrC,

It's obvious that the woman had severe brain damage. It's obvious to most of us who aren't her loved ones that she is a total invalid.  That's obvious. Most of us here are horrified at the prospect of being kept alive in such a state.
(btw, I respect your research, always have.)

That's not the issue at all is it? The issue is did she want this or No? The Husband and his sister in law and Brother

 The republican "thugs" are framing this as a civil rights issue.  They are doing the political thing like they always do.  They are representing their base, that's what they are supposed to do isn't it?  For some reason, doing what they do keeps winning elections for them.

Jeb Bush wants to be her guardian, yet George Bush signed that law in Texas.

Mr C, research me this, was that bill amended in 2003 to include a medical "tribunal" that makes the final decision? (well after Bush was governor) The law you pointed out didn't really seem to me to indicate the family could be superceeded.  But I'm not a lawyer.

I can see that you don't agree with anything the republicans do.  I love your research, but I have to quote one of the many Dilbert Principals -
"People make up thier minds first, then find information to support it later."

I firmly believe that. I try not to do that, but I slip too.

They go on to throw more against the wall to see what sticks

Good one Drew.  That's what is happening here.


Zero_hour, you said that this was distrubing -

Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it.

Can you imagine how the Husband's lawyer tried to break them down?  He asked them "what if her arms need to be removed" "What if she was covered in boils" OMG. They had to hold the extreme to be faithful to the point.  It's distrubing, but not surprising.

The reason this is getting the support is all the unanswered questions.  There were people in support of Terri that said she did move around.  Other doctors didn't describe her condition as a persistant vegative state.

Here in TN a man had a good fraction of his brain abruptly removed by a propeller from an aircraft.  Not only did he survive, he became an artist.  He lost some functions, but not all.  They removed a good section of a young girl's brain for damage done by menigitis and expected her to survive.

(I won't go into the obvious jokes about women not needing 1/2, but it's hard for me..)

And there are lots of stories about people who recover from what doctors call a hopeless case.  Look at this story - http://susanedsall.com/
This man recovered after doctors wrote him off completely.  He was able to not only recover, but to recover 97% and actually fly planes.

This is why the people support the parents.  They want to hold onto hope as long as they can.  There is no hope if Terri is dead. 

At least that's what we are lead to believe from the Parents. 

[GGKoul]

Fredster, it's been 15 years and for the first 8 years they appear to have tried everything to get Terri better and have spent the past 7 years fighting this issue in court.

With the amount of media attention this is getting, I assume if there was any hope for her to get better.  Someone out there would have stepped forward to say I can help or this is what I could do to get her better.


I wonder what would happen if the millionaire offered the parents 5 million to walk away?

[fredster]

This would be over.  That's what would happen.
Then we wait for the movie of the week.

Brain cells can be regenerated, the technology is new.  There are many examples of it.  Things like this fuel hope for people like Terri. http://ww3.komotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3107692

[Zero_Hour]

I understand why people have hope, why they support the parents . I have no problem with any of that. What I do have a problem with is that this case has had it day in court. It made it through the entire appeals process. Now the losing side wants the rules changed in their favor - no wait - they have had the rules changed in their favor.  After all of it is said and done what will we have?

Terri Schiavo will be dead.

The Husband and Family will have to go about trying to find some sort of normalcy to their lives - something I don't envy them at all.

The folks who have kept vigil outside the hospice, or been arrested protesting will find another cause.

The courts will overturn the law as unconstitutional.

Our congressmen will oversimplify the entire episode and use it in future campaign speeches. Plus they will be able to yell "activist judges" and stir people up as they are wont to do.

The media will find someone elses life to insert themselves into and speak as if they have insight, which they almost universally do not.

And me? I'll probably be playing video games.