LONG Pause loading games in dos.

[slicer_d]

So I'm messing with doss and using mame .91 whenever I run a game there is like a 1-2 min pause (maybe longer I havn't timed it).  Is this normal for dos mame?  I have tried the same HHD drive on two comps with very different configs and have changed all the mame options I could find.  Please somebody help.

[paigeoliver]

That happened somewhere around mame .90. I have no real reason to use that version, so I haven't actually looked into seeing what is up with it.

[2600]

I'm assuming it's the same in the DOS version?

skip_validitychecks 1

[paigeoliver]

Which once again brings up the point, WHY are most of the default options in Mame the wrong ones.

[2600]

I imagine at the time, they were pissed.  Constantly being bombarded with this bug that bug, and most of the people reporting bugs weren't even using MAME.  They were using derivatives of MAME that modify stuff like MAME32, MAME Plus, and MAME blah blah.  Sadly the first rule of reporting a bug, is to make sure you are using MAME and not a derivative.

At first this check was hard coded, then they listened to the users and and added the way to turn it off.  If you've seen the MAME forums most of the bugs reported people aren't using official MAME or report things like bad graphics even when there is a big screen that comes up and says this game has incorrect graphics.  They try to educate the user by displaying that message and allow them to disable it, it's not hard to disable it as you know, but it takes hopefully a little understanding and a little common sense which when you get people around computers seems to go out the door.

It gets tiring, I'm sure the devs around here feel the same.  There is a reason they came up with RTFM.


Now, if you are talking about other things like artwork or what not, I dunno.  What else do you change from the default?

[SirPeale]

You haven't mentioned system specs, but I'm guessing your system isn't exactly the fastest.  I've got a P133 I was doing some testing on, and experienced the same thing.  Heck, even my XP2400+ had a lengthy pause.  Not 1-2 min. like the 133, but longer than I thought was necessary.

I have even turned off the validitychecks, to no avail.

[Witchboard]

I have a 30 second pause from the time I run the mame command to the time the game starts using a PII 233 and MAME .87.  I do not see a "skip_validitychecks" in the mame config file.  Do I just manually add it?  If so, under what section?

[SirPeale]

Yes, you can just add it.  Doesn't matter where.

Of course, you have to have a version of Mame that supports this command.  Not sure when they added it.

[Chris]

Is it possible that you're not loading SMARTDRV?  It makes a huge difference on DOS cabinets.  I'm sure that's not the whole problem, but it might lessen the impact of whatever is happening.

--Chris

[SirPeale]

Um...I dunno.  I'll check later.

[slicer_d]

Thanks for all the replys guys.

I will try the "skip_validitychecks 1 " thing and see how much it help and I will also research the SMARTDRV stuff which I think I have installed but I will double check.

Also system specs wise I'm running a P3 slot 1 550 and a P3 833 both with 512 ram.  The 833 runs most games pretty well under xp so it seemed very strange that it would pause so long in dos.

When I get time to test this stuff I will be sure to use a stop watch and report results when I change stuff.

[SpamMe]

Of course, you have to have a version of Mame that supports this command.  Not sure when they added it.

Think it was added in .88

[Witchboard]

Of course.  The version right above mine. 

[SirPeale]

Just checked, I'm running smartdrv

smartdrv 4096

and I also have

skip_validitychecks = yes

[screaming]

Just checked, I'm running smartdrv

smartdrv 4096

and I also have

skip_validitychecks = yes

  Doesn't that 'yes' need to be a '1'?

[SirPeale]

  Doesn't that 'yes' need to be a '1'?

DOS version, remember?

[screaming]

  Doesn't that 'yes' need to be a '1'?

DOS version, remember?

  *shrug* I didn't know there was a difference

* screaming goes back to his Warcraft hole now.

[slicer_d]

It was playing around with the machine and its much quicker now.  It still takes 1+ min to load a game but its bearable unlike the 4+ min it took before.

I was wondering how much cache I should set aside with smartdrv? Right now I have 8192 and I have seen other people running 16384.  System specs are 550 with 512 ram and 8 gig hard drive.  How much do you guys think I should set it for?

[Chris]

DOS can't see more than 256 MB of RAM... try taking 256MB out to make sure you're not running into any addressing wierdness.

I would run 16384 on Smartdrv... you can set it higher, but I don't think it'll help much.

[SirPeale]

I would run 16384 on Smartdrv... you can set it higher, but I don't think it'll help much.

You're right...it didn't help at all.

I did overclock the 100 to 133, though.  Took almost ten seconds off the wait time, and added some FPS.  Space Invaders is now @ 60/60 (and if you unthrottle it gets up to a whopping 62/60!).  Galaga went from 29/60 to 37/60 and Pac-Man went from 45/60 to 57/60.

[Lilwolf]

Did you try uncompressing the mame.exe file (to the 34mg+ version).

[slicer_d]

Interesting stuff guys.

Lilwolf how do you unconpress the mame.exe?

I will up the smartdrv to 16384 and see if that helps.  Does dos really only see 256megs of ram?  Is there any way to make it use more or would it just be overkill anyway.

[SirPeale]

Well knit my socks...I thought it was already unpacked!  I'll have to give it a shot when I get a chance.

[2600]

Not sure if it's already mentioned, but you will also decrease your loading times by unzipping your roms.

As for Lilwolf's idea.  I may be wrong, but in DOS it will still load the entire exe in memory.  However, it won't have to uncompress it and take up that part of memory as well.

Also, for further clarification.  DOS can use more than 256MB of memory.  And for smartdrv it may have some affect, but really it's a caching program and I wouldn't think all that relevant to MAME since it doesn't do repeated reads to the HD, just reads and loads the roms once.  May have more of an affect on your FE, though.  Depending on the amount of memory you have, you'd may get a better loading times by using a RAM Drive with MAME in it then using smartdrv.

[SirPeale]

Not only did uncompressing the exe NOT decrease load time, it increased it!  It was loading @ 55 seconds, now it's up to 63!

[slicer_d]

Wow even more great ideas.

I looked up stuff about the ram drive and it seems doable.

[SirPeale]

Yes, 60 seconds until the game starts.  Depending on the game, of course.  Pac-Man loads quicker than Robotron.

You uncompress the exe with UPX.

upx -d dmame.exe

[Lilwolf]

btw, you might be right about loading the entire file in DOS.  I did some testing windows a while ago and found that it sped up the load considerably.  ESPECIALLY on smaller classic games.

But I haven't used the DOS build in years. 

[Chris]

Also, for further clarification.

[2600]

Also, for further clarification.  DOS can use more than 256MB of memory.

My understanding was that DOS's HIMEM.SYS and EMM386.EXE could see a maximum of 128MB up until DOS 6, and 256MB in DOS 7 (Win 95/98).  Quarterdeck's QEMM could always see 256MB.  DOS MAME depends on CWSDPMI for memory allocation, which is also limited to 256MB of physical RAM.  (It will also address 256MB of virtual memory, but that doesn't count for this discussion.)  See http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq15_1.html for notes on CWSDPMI's memory limits.

--Chris

Um, I think the link you provided says r5 let's you use all available extended memory up to 2GB.  r4 had the 256MB limitation.  But in any case I was making a general statement about DOS which may not have pertained to DOS MAME and it's memory requirements, which I'm not using so should of kept quite and will concede since I'm assuming you are.

I think you'll agree tuning DOS is a fine art and you have to see what works for you.  And Peale is correct that it may just take that long.  These are pretty old machines and there is no magic setting.

The real ways to increase loading time(not running speed) is to help the process of starting mame.

1. Load mame into memory (Either a Fast HD or load mame onto a RAM drive)
2. Unzip the Roms so Mame doesn't have to
3. A Fast HD or ROMs in a RAM drive would help too, but is unrealistic.

I'll leave the rest for those who are actually using DOS Mame and can actually test and try things out.

[Chris]

Um, I think the link you provided says r5 let's you use all available extended memory up to 2GB.

[2600]

Um, I think the link you provided says r5 let's you use all available extended memory up to 2GB.  r4 had the 256MB limitation.

All available extended memory (provided by HIMEM.SYS) and available disk space up to 2GB.  So v5 just upped the virtual memory limit.  I am still unaware of a memory manager that provides more than 256MB of XMS in DOS.  That doesn't mean that there isn't one, but HIMEM.SYS and QEMM won't do it, as far as I know.

  But in any case I was making a general statement about DOS which may not have pertained to DOS MAME and it's memory requirements, which I'm not using so should of kept quite and will concede since I'm assuming you are.

I have used it; my DOS MAME cabinet was the reason I wrote DOSCab Jukebox, which is also dependent on CWSDPMI for memory.  But I haven't kept up with it since about .65 or so.

I think you'll agree tuning DOS is a fine art and you have to see what works for you.  And Peale is correct that it may just take that long.  These are pretty old machines and there is no magic setting.

Absolutely.  I made a living supporting QEMM for four years when I worked at Quarterdeck in tech support, and I definately learned that DOS memory issues can get really esoteric really fast.

The real ways to increase loading time(not running speed) is to help the process of starting mame.

1. Load mame into memory (Either a Fast HD or load mame onto a RAM drive)
2. Unzip the Roms so Mame doesn't have to
3. A Fast HD or ROMs in a RAM drive would help too, but is unrealistic.

The giant MAME executable in a RAM drive is probably a good solution.  An older version of MAME is probably a much better solution.  I'll bet .37 loads and runs fast on that box.  Remember, the older MAMEs could use the much-faster 256 color modes, which really made a difference in vector games.

--Chris

I could see our dispute with CWSDPMI as I'll give you that you know more about it than I.  BUT the statement is a little unclear, It doesn't necessarly say specifically what the breakdown is for physical vs. virtual like it does for r4.  I'm not sure if it's saying there is a 2GB limit period or 2GB limit on disk space because of partition limitations.

However, it does say all XMS.  And I don't suppose you want to see the output of MEM for XMS on my system.  Seems to see 2GB just fine. 

Sorry, just had to make the one last comment. 

[slicer_d]

Well I sorted through all the dos memory talk  and now on my list of things to do is.
1. Make ramdrive for mame and FE
2. Uncompress games
3. Try mame.exe compressed and uncompressed on the ramdrive.

I think I understand how to do most of that but whats the easiest way to uncompress the roms?  I'm running a full set of vertical rom ~700 games what would be the quickest way to do this.

Also Peaple what version of mame are you running?  I still dont understand how your p133 can load almost twice as fast as my p550.

[Chris]

However, it does say all XMS.

[SirPeale]

Also Peaple [sic]what version of mame are you running?  I still dont understand how your p133 can load almost twice as fast as my p550.

.90.  I've been wanting to experiment with the newer versions, but after .91 there ISN'T any.

System specs:

64M RAM
P100 o/c to 133
Tseng Labs Lightspeed 128 (which will do 15KHz!)
Windows 98SE (booted to straight DOS 7.0)
Loading smartdrv 16384 at boot
Soundblaster Vibra 16 (which aparently Mame has it's own drivers for, all I had to do was detail the specs (set BLASTER=*****) in the autoexec.bat)

[2600]

What version of DOS are you running?

Ther version that comes with WIN98SE, if you want to talk about it and/or test it more PM me so we don't taint this thread.  I've got PCDOS 2000 and MSDOS 6.22 available for test here as well.

[JoyMonkey]

I think I understand how to do most of that but whats the easiest way to uncompress the roms?  I'm running a full set of vertical rom ~700 games what would be the quickest way to do this.

With WinRAR installed, select your 700 rom zips, right-click and select 'Extract each archive to seperate folder'.

Edit: You can also do it with WinZip installed; select your 700 rom zips, right click and select 'WinZip>Extract to here using filenames for folders'.

[SirPeale]

Well...for giggles I decided to unzip the few sets I have on this rig into folders.  Results:

lockup!  Each time.  Robotron started showing the startup rug, but that was it.  One stripe of it.  Then it sat there.

Pac-Man didn't even do that. 

[2600]

ROFL

That sucks Peale.  But I swear for as much as you use the DOS version of Mame, I think everytime you post about it or DOS in general there is a problem.   Here's hoping you have better luck.

All I can say is it works for me.  Whether or not it actually speeds anything up is going to be based on everyone's PC.

[SirPeale]

Yeah, it's just my luck, isn't it?  Two things that are supposed to speed loading times.  One makes it longer, and the other makes it go away all together!