Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[Chris]

I don't think going to war here is the answer.  Look, the MAME team is on it... I think we should let them do what they need to do.  If foley does what he says and assigns the trademark to the MAME team, all is well.  What his original intentions are are not particularly relevant.  It may be a factor for anyone planning a purchase, but let's be honest: even if he was the greatest guy in the world, we're not his target market, so saying "we'll never consider a purcase from you" means nothing.  And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Let's all just stand down for a moment, take a deep breath and see where Aaron and Haze run with it.  If they need our help, they know we got their back.

--Chris

[Crazy Cooter]

Who is going to trust this guy?  Other companies?  Please.  He committed a crime by filing the application.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the federal bureaucracy. [ripped from a site]

  And here is the crime in all of it's glory!!

[Crazy Cooter]

Notice the date... merry friggen X-mas.

[RetroJames]

One note, I am not a lawyer but that statement says, "I affirm....no (other entity) has the right to use this mark in commerce..blah, blah."

By the letter of the law and IP rights, maybe the mamedevs and/or the artist who made the logo do not "have the right to use the mark in commerce" meaning, maybe because they did not file first, they lost thier right (by the law).

Just playing devil's advocate here.  Lawyers feel free to chime in?

[Crazy Cooter]

You can establish rights to a mark based on "legitimate use" of the mark without ever registering.  It just complicates things if some doofus tries to register it.  That creates a burdon on the USPTO system (and judicail system).  That's why the applicant has to sign the above.  The applicant faces jail/fines/both if it is determined the application was filed in "bad faith".

[danny_galaga]

Nobody would be able to protect a trademark on that. lol.

but then bill gates seems to think the word 'windows' is his alone. oh, nad probably the word 'word'!!

word,
danny.

[1UP]

And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Could be a bad thing--especially if no one uses it.  If iRoms goes down in flames, it would be unlikely anyone would try anything like it again (creating a legal source of roms.)

"So you say you need investors, Mr. StarROMs?  I don't know, remember what happened to that iRoms thing..."   

[Tommy Boy]

And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Could be a bad thing--especially if no one uses it.  If iRoms goes down in flames, it would be unlikely anyone would try anything like it again (creating a legal source of roms.)

"So you say you need investors, Mr. StarROMs?  I don't know, remember what happened to that iRoms thing..."   

I agree.  The other issue here is that this guy has apparently no capability to formulate and execute a coherent strategy.  I ask: Why would one pi$$ down the leg of the very community which is the target market for iRoms?  This guy's business acumen leaves something to be desired.

What do you want to bet that he uses this iRoms service as an excuse to chase down "illegal" roms and prices games so that they won't "compete" with his Ultracase packages?  In the end this will be a poorly executed fiasco that COULD HAVE BEEN a good idea but instead gets killed by a greedy goon that doesn't realize what he's got.

If he's smart he'll realize that iRoms could be a much bigger money maker than building cabs.  I'll bet he gets it backwards and kills iRoms by trying to use it to drive off competition to Ultracade.  Moron.

[RetroJames]

Fear:

iRoms service established

iRoms somehow encrypted to prevent them running on MAME

iRoms only run on Ultracade hardware/software

Ayone using MAME MUST be running illegal roms

Now that mamedevs are "in the open", pursue mame as illegal

Note Nintendo states that emulators are the evil of mankind in no uncertain terms

Note DF has already made statements to the effect that "since mame emus capcom, it is an illegal sf package"

Thank you , come again.

THe good news...all vectrex games are legal

[Crazy Cooter]

Exactly... illegal "by default".

Digital Rights Management.

Your ROM download can only be used on 1 cabinet...

Boycott Ultracade & Arcade Legends

[stevejt]

Forgive me if I'm wrong.  Everyone keeps saying MAME is going to be illegal.  I have seen it said that arcade boards can ONLY be legally backed up from an original board.  (You can't use someone elses ROM to fix a board even if you actually own.)  So, by that, MAME can NEVER be declared illegal software on it's own.  I can HAVE it, and I can back up my boards, with the intent of only repairing them if needed.  (I know we can't all burn all our own ROMs, but the possibility has been put there for us.
Does that sound reasonable?

Steve

(I own about 35 boards, I WOULD buy the hardware to back up if the ROMs weren't already available).

[RayB]

BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?

[SirPoonga]

Ayone using MAME MUST be running illegal roms

Now that mamedevs are "in the open", pursue mame as illegal

Note DF has already made statements to the effect that "since mame emus capcom, it is an illegal sf package"

Can't happen.

[SirPoonga]

BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?

Not yet

[RayB]

3) Hanaho Capcom CD, you can legally run those Capcom games which happens to run on a modified version of mame32.

You sure about that? When RetroFX GnG was active we had a couple discussions with Hanaho, and I'm pretty sure their emulator was written by Larry Bank. In fact, Larry's core emulator is what RetroFX GnG was built off of (with Larry's permission).

[APFelon]

Here is a question I haven't seen brought up:

How will this affect the arcade vendor industry as a whole? Many companies "rip" ROMs from their original PCBs in order to have a backup in case a ROM goes bad in the field. Of course, if the PCB gets sold (either in a machine or as a PCB) or gets discarded, the backups remain  and are often used for home repair or conversion. In the seven years I worked in the business, no one thought squat about it.

So what I am looking for is comments on the repercussions of this newfound application of the DMCA on businesses that have been practicing this for decades, AND the real-life applications of the law. Preservation of 25-year-old electronics often depend on this. Will this practice be forced to fall in to oblivion, or will it be "grandfathered" in?

APf

[SirPoonga]

3) Hanaho Capcom CD, you can legally run those Capcom games which happens to run on a modified version of mame32.

You sure about that? When RetroFX GnG was active we had a couple discussions with Hanaho, and I'm pretty sure their emulator was written by Larry Bank. In fact, Larry's core emulator is what RetroFX GnG was built off of (with Larry's permission).

Yes, I hav played the hanaho capcom cd.

[SirPeale]

BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?

Not yet

Ah, but consider how long those threads took to get to the length they are.  Within 18 hours THIS thread had 8500 views. 

[SirPoonga]

Actually, the IE 6 cookie problem thread on the oldsite grew pretty quickly considering anyone who was using IE 6 had the problem

[Gunstar Hero]

The Hanaho Capcom runs on a version of MAME called TrueMAME that was approved by the MAME Team due to the liscensed status of the ROMS IIRC...

As for Mr. Ultracade (TM), he's a moron. He wants the arcade sized ipod. Apple created that market. UltraCON's just trying to rip off their plan/bizarre naming scheme. Nice. That's integrity.

It's funny too... because SO many guys on this board would buy ROMs from the ass. So many guys would rather be "legit" rather than using legally questionable ROM sets.

But why kill other cab makers? He thinks he's being smooth. It's like, he's trying to do a new TV show and doesn't want anyone to sell TV sets except him.  Seems like he'd be limiting the audience to me.

And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it. 

[SirPoonga]

And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it.

[tetsujin]

And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it. 

Not entirely true.  I've been trying to find a program which I know was deemed copyright infringement and it was an open source project call freecraft, a warcraft like RTS.  I have been searching all over the net for the source for that.  Blizzard has actively shut down sites that mention it.

Freecraft is still in Debian...  It's not too hard to find.

[SirPoonga]

Rally, I tried looking through rpms and debs.  I must have missed it.  Anyway.  Point is still it is hard to get at it.

[IntruderAlert]

And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it. 

Not entirely true.  I've been trying to find a program which I know was deemed copyright infringement and it was an open source project call freecraft, a warcraft like RTS.  I have been searching all over the net for the source for that.  Blizzard has actively shut down sites that mention it.

Maybe try contacting the guys at  FCGP

[colmore]

Despite the fact that this guy is obviously a jerk and approaching the whole thing in a completely wrongheaded way, there is a legitimate point at the core of all of this nonsense.

The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.  Virtually every MAME capable cabinet on ebay loudly proclaims its ability to play THOUSANDS of arcade and console games.  Nowhere on the page will it give the caveat that to play thousands of games, you should own thousands of JAMMA boards and cartidges and have your own personal ROM extractor.  I doubt a cabinet has ever been purchased by someone who did not put at least several hundred illegal roms on it within a day of getting it.

Imagine if MAME existed but roms were somehow only available to legal owners.  Would people pay $2000 for a cabinet that could only play a dozen or so legal games?  Almost certainly not.  The Ultracade is being undercut by competitors who are tacitly relying on theft to complete the products that they are selling.  They don't have to say "Here's where to go get those 10,000 ROMS I mentioned" they know people will be able to find a .torrent or use other P2P.  In fact, even if the roms were available at say, $30 per, this would still cripple the market for MAME cabinets.

I for one will fully admit to the fact that I'm building my cabinet for the exclusive purpose of playing ROMS that I have no legal right to whatsoever.  I don't own a single original board, nor do I plan to.  If MAME weren't available I might someday (not now, I don't have the cash) consider buying an Ultracade or similar multi-game cabinet, but with the ROMs available, there's no way I'd ever buy one.

Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?  Almost certainly not.  However, his point that he is competing with stolen goods is legitimate.

[stevejt]

Can't you legally sue him for a loss of bussiness?

[stevejt]

Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?

[APFelon]

The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.  Virtually every MAME capable cabinet on ebay loudly proclaims its ability to play THOUSANDS of arcade and console games.  Nowhere on the page will it give the caveat that to play thousands of games, you should own thousands of JAMMA boards and cartidges and have your own personal ROM extractor.  I doubt a cabinet has ever been purchased by someone who did not put at least several hundred illegal roms on it within a day of getting it.

That's swell, but how does this apply to Philip's 642 DVD player (it can play Divx and Xvid encoded movies, the pirate's favorite... AND can be found at any local Target store) and CD players that also play MP3s directly off of a CD?

What if I sold an empty cabinet and claim that it is "perfect for a MAME project"? Am I somehow supporting piracy? Am I somehow responsible if the new owner makes a MAME cabinet out of the materials I supplied, even if I mounted a motherboard and HDD on the side?

I can understand your argument; it is the same one that gun control advocates use when they sue gun manufacturers. I just think that it is too abstract of a thought process to hold up any serious logical scrutiny. (a material is supplied to a person who uses it illegally or maliciously, therefore the supplier is responsible for the action of another).

APf

[SirPoonga]

The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.

[Fat_Trucker]

Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?

[Crazy Cooter]

Colmore, have you ever burned a cd?

[SirPoonga]

Colmore, have you ever burned a cd?

[Shape D.]

So D.F.'s parents suck?  :

[fredster]

this is like the biggest thread ever.

[Shape D.]

this is like the biggest thread ever.

Nope, As of this post. Tied for second.

[DrewKaree]

Shape, I think SirP's point was - yes, Foley's parents suck, and we should all download a copy of Korn's remake, burn it to CD, and mail it to him and let nature take its course

 


I offer up the following quote, which you can clearly paraphrase to fit the above solution:

"Dishes are DONE, maaan!"

[paigeoliver]

I have a prediction. A lot of people in the arcade world are also in the emulation world as well. I predict that someone will take a hard drive image out of an ultracade, crack the security on it, and then release the image to the world.

If that someone is smart they would get it circulating in Taiwan, China, and Japan first, by the time it hits the ENGLISH warez/roms scene it will be too late, the bootleg Ultracade kits will already be coming out of the factory.

I mean if he wants to fight piracy and illegal competion, then let him do it. Operators have never had a problem buying bootleg boards. They didn't have a problem with it in 1980, and the last operator I did a deal with runs more bootleg boards than real ones.

[Dexter]

Don't the ultracade cocktails have a dual screen mirror mode? whereby fighting games can be played at either end instead of you needing controls at the front of the cab? Would be a terrible shame if an image of THAT software made it out onto the internet 

By the way guys, theres no official version of mame that can do the same thing, is there?

[paigeoliver]

Don't the ultracade cocktails have a dual screen mirror mode? whereby fighting games can be played at either end instead of you needing controls at the front of the cab? Would be a terrible shame if an image of THAT software made it out onto the internet 

By the way guys, theres no official version of mame that can do the same thing, is there?

I don't THINK there are any versions of Mame that can do that, but why not ask one of the devlopers around here, it sounds like it would be incredibly simple, just a custom video mode.

[paigeoliver]

ANd actually, THAT idea deserves a full thread. A double image cocktail mode for playing non cocktail horizontal games on vertical cocktails is something that A LOT of people would probably really enjoy.