Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[SirPoonga]

You are just trying to stir the pot.

Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.  MAME is open source, but we have individuals selling MAME related products which promote the use of roms that are not legal to use with the emulator.

Read the Bleem case.  There's nothing wrong with emulation.  Sony tried to do the whole "promotes piracy" thing.  So, are you going to CD player manufacturers and telling them to stop making CD players because it promotes people to make copies of CDs?
There are legal uses for mame.  Mame is not illegal.  And Mr. Foley should not be able to trademark name since he didn't create the name or logo.

We have keyboard encoders that works with MAME and other emulators, Light guns, top rotated joysticks interfaces for Ikari Warriors, top/down spinners for Discs of Tron.  The list goes on.  I haven't even touched on the cabs and the artwork.

Why are we building arcade controls for games we are not allowed to play, anyway?  Are you telling me these sites do not make any money on these products?  MAME is not making money, heck, it needs donations to get the boards!

We are building arcade controls to play PC games as if they were arcade games.  See the sticky note in the software forum.
Also we are building controls to play realy games.   I'm building a cocktail cabinet to play a 1942 board I am getting my hands on.
Also there are legal roms out there, see starroms.com.

So whats the quickest option to stop the madness in Mr. Foley's mind?  Trademark MAME.  Who cares if he is treadding on toes?

The people's toes he is treading on cares.  They way he is going about it is not right.  He's closing eBay auctions down that are completely legal using the excuse he trademarked MAME, which is not the case yet.  He doesn't own mame as a trademark yet so having auctions close with the reason that they are infringing upon the trademark is fraud.

Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.
If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal. 

With comments like that I'd believe you are Foley or affiliated with him.  how would you know what he is thinking?
Until Foley trademarks mame, which shouldn't happen since it isn't his,  we don't need to worry about anything.  What people are getting upset about is the way he is doing it.  It isn't right and borderlines or possibly may be illegal.  Read the replies to this thread and you will see that.

No one is disputing the fact that business people don't like competition and try and find ways to one up on competition.  There's nothing wrong with that.  What is wrong is the way Foley is going about doing it.

[APFelon]

Unbelievable. You obviously have no clue as to what goes on here on this forum, within the MAME development team, or the all encompassing "emulation scene".

Did you read my previous post?  Are you being negative on purpose?

Let's recap.

Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.  MAME is open source, but we have individuals selling MAME related products which promote the use of roms that are not legal to use with the emulator.

And selling cars promotes speeding, selling beer promotes drunkeness and alcoholism, and selling blank CDs promotes piracy. Your arguments are played, tired, and backwards... and frankly boring.

We have keyboard encoders that works with MAME and other emulators, Light guns, top rotated joysticks interfaces for Ikari Warriors, top/down spinners for Discs of Tron.  The list goes on.  I haven't even touched on the cabs and the artwork. 

...many of which are used in ACTUAL ARCADE CABINETS with a factory PCB. Repro art for that worn-out Tron, stencils for that beat up Ms. Pac Man, rotating joysticks to replace those cheap POSes that came from the factory... And custom artwork is just that. Did you know that a lot of people play their consoles in their cabs? Did you know that people play storebought and shareware PC games on their cabs? Probably not, as you think that the entire market force behind arcade equipment is strictly geared towards pirating software.

Why are we building arcade controls for games we are not allowed to play, anyway?  Are you telling me these sites do not make any money on these products?  MAME is not making money, heck, it needs donations to get the boards!

You are free to opt out whenever you wish.

If this doesn't promote a competitive product with Ultracade, I don't know what does.  The MAME devs have the boards, and the legal use to develop MAME as a platform to keep these games alive, regardless if the day comes when these ROMS becomes public domain.

I read this three times and I am not clear as to what point you are trying to make. Same goes for the paragraph next up. What are you arguing? MAME doesn't make money?

So whats the quickest option to stop the madness in Mr. Foley's mind?  Trademark MAME.  Who cares if he is treadding on toes?

We care. If this hasn't become blindingly clear by now, you need a checkup from the neck up.

If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal, but they won't be allowed to release binaries.  And let's face it, what is there left to support?  Should we look at emulating 2004 arcade games next?

You keep saying "WE". As my once Social Studies teacher used to be fond of saying, "WHO is WE?" Who are you speaking for? I would bet some serious money that you are not a MAME dev nor have you been on this forum long enough to be considered a "we".  And what basis do you mount that "foley will want MAME to continue" yet "they can't release binaries" theory? How so? How could he possibly stop a multinational development team from releasing binaries? On what law is this theory based? How will he enforce US law in Italy, for example? Can you offer something with at least one foot in reality?

Most of the Japanese copied roms are already breaking Japanese law.

None of these comments are in dispute guys.

==================

Disclaimer:

My comments are my own, and I am not supporting Ultracade in anyway.  If you do not agree with my comments, fine.  But please refrain from name calling, especially towards Mr. Foley.  I won't sue you for slander, but he can, and we don't want that.

We lost some fine members last week due to trolling. Your comments, especially that rediculous disclaimer, goes far and beyond  anything that they wrote. I should hope that your stay on this forum is a brief one.

APf

[lloydcom]

I'm glad you have raised those points, and answered them, and yes I do see your logic regarding the home use of MAME.

[SirPoonga]

I don't really care if Mr. Foley grabs MAME's copyright or not.  He touched a nerve that shouldn't have happend, and I'm not endorsing his actions, but you have to understand his motives regardless.

We do understand his motives.  Like any business man, he is out to make money.  No business man like competition (but realizes it is needed).  If there is going to be competition it should be legal competition.  Foley believe that selling a cabinet on mame stating that it could run mame and 1000s of games is not legal competition.  However it is.  The cabinets are not being sold with games.  Like a CD player that can play legal and non legal  audio CDs,  an arcade cabinet with a PC in it can play legal and non legal games/roms in it.

The approach Foley went at trying to get rid of the competition is not a right and possible illegal approach.   He is rying to create a way to make the empty cabinets on ebay illegal by trademarking mame.  Since there isn't anything illegal about those cabinets he is trying to create something to make them illegal.


Yes, basically now it's just a matter of waiting to see what happens.  The mamedevs are dealing with the trademark issues, the companies Foley affected on ebay are taking their actions.

While we wait we can bicker about it

[RayB]

Uhhh, Mr Lloyd? Those keyboard encoders and other parts you mentioned aren't "made to work with MAME", they work with any software that will accept keyboard input and could be used as the interface for ANY game. Got it?

And as for your way earlier comment that it takes balls to do what Foley did, ... yeah well, it can be said it takes balls to step in front of a moving bus. But there is another word that can be used to describe that same act. Think about it.

[str1der]

Not to give this toad any ideas but I wonder if he's now going to go after ACT LABS. They use MAME in the advertisment of their products. They are a little bigger fish than us I think.

[DrewKaree]

Did you read my previous post?  Are you being negative on purpose?

We might ask the same question as to why you didn't read any of the thread to get all the information that was given you in these few posts since your obvious disregard in your posting.

Why didn't you read any of the previous posts?  Were you being obtuse on purpose?

Your comments are similar in formation to Mr. Foley.  Bang out something that ignores what's said, until your points are dispatched step by step, at which point you change your tack.  If you aren't willing to read the thread and instead choose to ignore the points made here, then don't feign confusion about responses to your remarks.  It reeks of trolling or ignorance, but isn't a simple misunderstanding, as you seem to be trying to put it now.

[DarkKobold]

My favorite lines:

If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal, but they won't be allowed to release binaries.

BZZZT WRONG. Trademark is a NAME!

I don't really care if Mr. Foley grabs MAME's copyright or not.  He touched a nerve that shouldn't have happend, and I'm not endorsing his actions, but you have to understand his motives regardless.

ROTFL. He is getting a trademark. All MAME has to do is become GAME, HAME, DAME, RAME, SLAME, BAME, or, god forbid, LAME, and boom, he has zero power again.

Even if he does win, all he has is a name. He makes the community scramble for a new name, things get chaotic for a month, and boom, back in buisness under a new banner.  He couldn't win the copyright with thousands of lawyers on his side. There is too much history, too many users, etc.

Wow, talk about zero understanding of the underlying legal issues. You don't even know the difference between Trademark and Copyright. I can't believe anyone could  take your drivel serious after that.
 

[1UP]

If you still don't understand what is going on, it is pretty crazy if you think about it.

Let's say I wrote a software CD player a few years ago.

[SirPoonga]

What a hipocrate!

http://www.ultracade.com/flashsite.html

Goto Consumer Products.
Click on Hammer.  Read the description.

"... Compatible with ... MAME, RAINE and many other games."

[1UP]

What a hipocrate!

http://www.ultracade.com/flashsite.html

Goto Consumer Products.
Click on Hammer.

[DarkKobold]

Ok, I am the minority, but I think that all of this anti-mame stuff is crap.

If it wasn't for MAME, this board would not exist. When I put MAME on a cabinet, I do it out of respect for the years of work that others put in so that I may have a multigame arcade cabinet. I like to see MAME on a cabinet. People are showing their loyalty and support to the creators of the tool. How many people buy Sports apparel with their team logo? Our team is MAME folks, and they work hard so we can play hard.

That said, a lot of people put MAME on there cabinet because it is thing to do. They don't think that it holds the same meaning.

I'd like to know what Howard thinks of putting MAME on a cab. People are partly paying him homage for his work when they display the logo.

I made this a long time ago when Subzero (yeah, I know) started an anti-mame artwork thread. In reality, a lot of people agreed with him. I find it ironic and amusing that we are now fighting to keep the logo that everyone is sick of!

At least laugh at the irony that people will now get what they were wishing for, less MAME artwork! 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the MAME logo. I wanted it on the BYOAC tokens, and I wasn't gonna buy the MAME tokens unless it was on there.

[DrewKaree]

ROTFL. He is getting a trademark. All MAME has to do is become GAME, HAME, DAME, RAME, SLAME, BAME, or, god forbid, LAME, and boom, he has zero power again.

I know you're just making a point, so take this as being directed at lloyd, to "clear things up" for him 

It won't ever be changed to LAME.  LAME is currently a GNU project, and I'm not sure what the "registration" refers to, but it was - 1999/11/17

....in case Mr Foley wanted to trademark THAT, too 

[SirPoonga]

He must have a lot staked on iRoms.

The question is, can he do what starroms hasn;t been able to do?

[DrewKaree]

He's certainly getting a lot of pre-publicity for his "service".

I can only hope Mr Jobs shuts down his proposed "service" for trademark infringement 

[SirPoonga]

All the publicity is bad publicity with the target audience for iRoms...

[Crazy Cooter]

He must have a lot staked on iRoms.

The question is, can he do what starroms hasn;t been able to do?

Put it this way:
Namco just forced his to remove their stuff from his machines 6 months ago because he never had permission for the ROM's he was selling in his cabs.

[1UP]

How many of you have paid starroms?

I have.

[Havok]

Let's sick Apple on this loser - iRoms... iTunes... Hmmmm - sounds like a copywrite infringement!

[mahuti]

Yahwnn... blah blah.

[danny_galaga]

I know you're just making a point, so take this as being directed at lloyd, to "clear things up" for him

[Fat_Trucker]

Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?. I thought MAME was simply an abbreiviation describing a function rather than a product (its what it does, not necessarily what it is).

Could it not be argued that MAME is just a generic term and not subject to trademarking (like DVD, CD, Tree, Automobile etc)?.

So if Foley got the TM could we not just change it to a different stylistic MAME logo and stay within the law?.

Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.

You seem to have a startling grasp of the inner workings of what is going on with Foley and Ultracade for someone who has no affiliation with them?, strange you should turn up on these boards at this point in time specifically to argue his case???.

So just for the record in respect to your comment above. Through all of the backpedalling that has been done Foley has claimed that he has NO commercial interest in MAME, he just doesn't want other people being able to use it commercially to compete with him. I'm presuming then that his statements to that effect were just another smokescreen then?.

Kind of telling about the legitimacy of his position that even someone trying to fight Foley's corner can do nothing but further destroy his credibility with every statement. I fail to see how he can possibly succeed in any commercial endeavour concerning MAME now that his actions have (quite rightly) drawn him so much negative attention.

[spriggy]

Damn, the air is thick in here!?!
 

[SOAPboy]

Damn, the air is thick in here!?!
 

Yeah sorry about that.. i farted.

[Crazy Cooter]

This is funny.

[daywane]

I agree with the above.
I brings to mind. Walt Disney, he dipped into public domain and grabbed Snow White...Made a move and now claims all right to it. They have done this on many public domain books.
My kids really thought Disney really made the story of Snow White.
Live a lie long enough it becomes believable.

I am just going on my recent past... I thought seat belt laws would never pass,
smoking bans, etc. etc.... I think this Person ( D.F ) (man that's my initials . really does bother me

[RayB]

Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?.
------8<---------snip

That point has been raised already, twice by me. I've said it, and I'll say it again: YES he could get the acronym and phrase registered to him, if it were not for the stolen logo.


Someone else asked about legal sources for the other 90% of ROMs... Well Hanaho has legal distribution rights to Capcom's entire classic library. If you buy the Hanaho HotRod joystick, you get a Capcom emulator and dozens of Capcom ROMs with it.


~Ray B.

[Goz]

Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?.
------8<---------snip

That point has been raised already, twice by me. I've said it, and I'll say it again: YES he could get the acronym and phrase registered to him, if it were not for the stolen logo.


Someone else asked about legal sources for the other 90% of ROMs... Well Hanaho has legal distribution rights to Capcom's entire classic library. If you buy the Hanaho HotRod joystick, you get a Capcom emulator and dozens of Capcom ROMs with it.


~Ray B.

You can also buy the HANHO CD (CAPCOM Arcaded Hits Volume 1) at Best Buy for $9 at least they have it at my local store.

-Goz

[Crazy Cooter]

1up should talk to capcom... still have the emulator issue though (another thread).

I'd love to start a thread on where to obtain ROM's for commercial use, but not until Foley is out of the scene.  I don't want to help him in anyway.  We should speak directly with starroms and help them out.  I think they are the best guys to do it "right" for all concerned parties.

If Ultracade/Arcade Legends does steal the use of the "MAME" name, What will happen to all the old versions of MAME?  Will the MAME dev's have to rename them to avoid confusion with Foley?

[shawnzilla]

Just looked at DF's Ucde site and noticed that he seems to have selling rights to several games. How did he pull this off? In particular, how did he pull off getting the rights to the laserdisc games? Is he selling actual laserdiscs? I know the DL & SA are available through digital leisure, but Badland, DL II and Super Don Quixote??? Next thing you know, he'll have suckered Monkey Punch into selling him the rights to Cliffhanger....

[clanggedin]

I think they should change the name anyway to GAME. General Arcade Machine Emulator.

[mahuti]

Nobody would be able to protect a trademark on that. lol.

[Crazy Cooter]

To be "similar" to mp3 distribution, ROM's & emus are missing one thing:

DRM - Digital Rights Management.

Say Foley gets permission to spread roms through his nutty service, he's going to need an emulator that can "authorize" the use of that rom.  The problem would be that if he comes out with "Foley's Emulator", it doesn't have a reputation.  Now if he suddenly has an emulator called "MAME", that has a reputation.

Does anyone else see "You must use MAME version 1.0 or higher to play these ROMs" in the future?

[SirPoonga]

To be "similar" to mp3 distribution, ROM's & emus are missing one thing:

DRM - Digital Rights Management.

Say Foley gets permission to spread roms through his nutty service, he's going to need an emulator that can "authorize" the use of that rom.

[wj2k3]

It would seem impossible for Mr. Fooley to obtain a trademark on an item he has already publicly declared that he is not the rightful owner.

We will be happy to cancel our application and work with the M.A.M.E. team to assign it to its rightful owners;

But I quess it would seem just as impossible for someone to sue a RV manufacturer (and win) because his RV crashed on the way home from buying it after he set the cruise control and went back to make a sandwich.

[stevejt]

I just read MOST of the last 11 pages, so forgive me if I missed this somewhere already. 

I personally beleive ultracade deserves some bad publicity for this.  But by the truth, not by cursing or calling him names,(deserving or not).  I saw many posts about people saying they would link here or post something on their website.  Has anyone put something like this together, breif, but showing ALL the most relevant facts.  Like askng for royalties,(with list of who).  Also facts like roms he has been in trouble for,(thought i read something like that, if not here, in one of the links posted here).  Like his emulator compatible "hammer" cp?

If it's true that search engines use links to help account for rating, everyone that hosts this message,(if, or after it's done) should all swap links.  I my self have one geocities page and 2 domains.  I would post something written respectably on all 3.   (Sorry, but can't chance losing my domain accounts over something less.)  It would be funny if a search for "ultracade" returned everything else but.

Steve

[clanggedin]

OK, I sent a email to the VeRO program about foley pulling auctions. I even used the email I believe Crazy Cooter posted and today I got this response:

Hello,

Thank you for writing.

While we appreciate your concern in this matter, due to privacy concerns eBay is not in the position to provide you with information on any third parties.

That being said, we will review the matter and take appropriate action.

Kind Regards,

Lizzie
eBay VeRO Team




HUH?? Apparently they didn't understand the email that I sent to them.

[RayB]

They probably did, but they can't legally comment about it to you, just in case you're just someone trying to screw someone else.

[Santoro]

I got the exact same response.

[Crazy Cooter]

Cookie cutter response.

edit/
Here's a quick summary of trademark usage/protection:
http://www.tmexpress.com/TME_Q&A.html