We're only as good as our money

[paigeoliver]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

[danny_galaga]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

i can't believe i'm saying this, but i wouldn't totally disagree with paige 

there certainly is a total breakdown in how aid gets to people and more often than not, it doesn't. certainly is down to sheer greed and opportunism. why more african despots never make it to war crimes tribunals is beyond me...

[patrickl]

I have to agree on stopping aid that is given on a regular basis. People just grow dependent on the money and it indeed seems to end up in the wrong hands (eventually with arms dealers and builders).

In this case we are talking about a disaster. People lost their live or livelyhood and they need help. They will not grow dependent on the money since it's a one time deal (perhaps prolonged over a while since the buildup will take some time). One might argue that they should have been better prepared, but that's quite a stretch seeing how this is not really a common occurence.

So in this case I feel these people shoud get our money. I sent (a tiny bit I'll agree) of mine anyway.

[DrewKaree]

I have to agree on stopping aid that is given on a regular basis. People just grow dependent on the money and it indeed seems to end up in the wrong hands

*looks around to see if he's on the correct forum* 

[fredster]

According to the President, he said yesterday that 40% of all the money that is given in the world comes from the US.

40%.

I believe it was 2.3 billion dollars in Aid the US gives.

Billion.

Wow.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Chad is a proud American now.  The point of this thread was that he was upset the world doesn't respect the contributions the US gives the world.

He makes some really good points.  Aid that we have given has been mis-appropriated by crooked politicians in the past.  If we didn't give any we wouldn't support them.  IE Saddam, Arafat.

But then, at least some of it does go where it belongs, and that wouldn't happen anymore.

[GGKoul]

Chad, if you don't like America why don't you move to France?

I could... French is my first language, so it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Or you could move to Quebec... 

[GGKoul]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

As I said before, Forgein Aid is used in order to get miltary, civil, cultural or commerce exchanges with the poor nation.  If give you this aid.. you have to buy American or use American contractors to develop your instructure.

[ChadTower]

Or you could move to Quebec...

[paigeoliver]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

As I said before, Forgein Aid is used in order to get miltary, civil, cultural or commerce exchanges with the poor nation.  If give you this aid.. you have to buy American or use American contractors to develop your instructure.

They aren't developing any infrastructure. They are shooting things, knocking down what little infrastructure they do have, and hoarding as much as they can.

Building a palace, an airport, and a highway that goes between them is not infrastructure.

It is like everyone there is all about short term gain. Zimbabwe recently had a bunch of farms owned by (white) european settlers siezed and given to various native farmers, who proceeded to eat the seeds rather than plant crops, and now those lands lay barren.

[shmokes]

Shmokes,

Chad is a proud American now.  The point of this thread was that he was upset the world doesn't respect the contributions the US gives the world.

He makes some really good points.  Aid that we have given has been mis-appropriated by crooked politicians in the past.  If we didn't give any we wouldn't support them.  IE Saddam, Arafat.

But then, at least some of it does go where it belongs, and that wouldn't happen anymore.

*pats Fredster on the head*

It's okay....I know....irony is hard.

He's complaining that the U.S. Government is choosing how to spend HIS money instead of letting him decide who to give his money to.  He's criticizing the American Government, much like us apparently nonproud Americans criticize how our current president spends our money in Iraq.

I know this will be difficult by try to imagine yourself in a world with humor.  Then try to remember this really common thing where conservatives suggest that criticizing our government is unpatriotic.  They might even go so far as suggest that liberals who would criticize our government should move to France or they might even subtly suggest that we are not proud Americans.

Now, imagine that I am a liberal who fancies himself as having a sense of this humor thing.  And imagine that I see a conservative criticizing the government and I make an attempt at this humor by suggesting he move to France.  This is funny, especially to those who have been around for a couple months and have seen how often I've been on the other side of the "move to France" thing.  I guess you must not have been around then -- you know, back during the political posts; this seems to have gone over your head.

[ChadTower]

*pats Fredster on the head*

It's okay....I know....irony is hard.

Irony isn't that hard... what IS hard is tolerating unwarranted condescension.

[DYNAGOD]

so we GIVE AWAY 3+ billion a year..
but yet schools dont have books or computers, children living in the streets,poverty and joblessness everwhere etc etc..
we need to look inward for a little while and take care of our own.

im sure its no coincidence that money from donations makes its way into the hands of warlords and tyrants.. im sure its more by design than accident..
remeber ,your countries goverment does things everyday that you think only other goverments would do..

[shmokes]

*pats ChadTower on the head*

It's okay....I know.....tolerating unwarranted condescension is hard. 

[patrickl]

According to the President, he said yesterday that 40% of all the money that is given in the world comes from the US.

40%.

I believe it was 2.3 billion dollars in Aid the US gives.

Billion.

Wow.

That's weird. I thought total world aid was something like $50 billion or more and I thought the US gave about $10 billion a year (i.e both far more than $2.3 billion, but also nowhere near 40%) Is this some definition trick perhaps? Or maybe 40% of the aid coming from the american continent?

There was a conference a while back where the rich countries decided to spend 0.7% of their GNP on aid and the US is so far only spending 0.14%.

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

:edit: actually I looked it up and I found some "right wing" article (on an apparent "too liberal" New York Times article)that states the US spend $10.9 billion a year.
http://www.timeswatch.org/twarticles/2004/20041228.asp

Anyway as I said before this is peanuts compared to how much money the US government gives it's own people so there is no need for nationalistic "let the world just go to hell and well manage on our own" sentiments. Don't make me end this discussion in another goodwin's law finaly. Some people here are really tempting me to start comparing things to that other nationalistic regime again.

[GGKoul]

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

Thanks for supporting my earlier posts.. 

[patrickl]

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

Thanks for supporting my earlier posts..

[ChadTower]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

[patrickl]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

Ok so the US spends $190 billion on farmers alone. Then there is the military which is basically a subsidy plan for the airplane and vehicle industry as well. Now you think that adding another measly $10 billion to that huge subsidy budget is gonna make a noticable difference. Wow you really must be an efficiency wizzard.

The "is it really aid to get your own money back?" claim I don't get. They don't get "their" money back.

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

[ChadTower]

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

Actually, yes, but I can already see you aren't nearly as interested in clean debate as you are in flippant comments, so I'm finished. 

[Dermbrian]

The aid 'the goverment' gives (foreign or domestic) is kind of like putting a your church offering on your maxxed out credit card, isn't it?  

With our national debt and annual deficits it's hard to ask our country to assist when needs arise, other than personal charitable donations.  Our common funds are tapped out.

Brian

[GGKoul]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

Aid money life-cycle

- Rich Country gives Poor Country via Rich Country tax dollars.
- Poor Country buys goods/services from Rich Country using this aid money.
- Company A from Rich Country sells goods/services to poor company.

[fredster]

To DynaGod -

but yet schools dont have books or computers, children living in the streets,poverty and joblessness everwhere etc etc..
we need to look inward for a little while and take care of our own.

Where is that? I live in a small community in TN.  There are 6 or 7 Schools. They have books and computers and they are clean and well managed. The mean income out here is below the national average.  Where are these schools and why don't they have the funding? 

To GGKoul -
And what has Canada done to date GGKoul ?  You are pretty good at point out what we have done.  Surely you can describe what your country should do?   What have you told the people around you to do, after all, they are your people and your opinion matters there.

Shmokes:

Now, imagine that I am a liberal who fancies himself as having a sense of this humor thing.  And imagine that I see a conservative criticizing the government and I make an attempt at this humor by suggesting he move to France.  This is funny, especially to those who have been around for a couple months and have seen how often I've been on the other side of the "move to France" thing.  I guess you must not have been around then -- you know, back during the political posts; this seems to have gone over your head.

I really don't even know what you are getting at, and I am struggling to care.  You must be a real hit there in Red State Utah.     I think that the "move the France" thing when over your head...  One day you might get it. Maybe.

Patrickl

Anyway as I said before this is peanuts compared to how much money the US government gives it's own people so there is no need for nationalistic "let the world just go to hell and well manage on our own" sentiments. Don't make me end this discussion in another goodwin's law finaly. Some people here are really tempting me to start comparing things to that other nationalistic regime again.

What is the exact figure you have in mind Patrickl? The numbers you see show only the government's aid.  It doesn't show the aid americans give out of their pockets.  What is our "debt" to others? Isn't it enough that we provide the aid we do ? Are you saying that The President of the United States is lying?

I think that when this story unfolds you will see that the US has the will, the equipment, and the heart to be on the front lines providing what aid we can.  We'll be out there saving as many lives of innocents as we can.  I think that the US gives from it's heart and we give to just help.  If it also benifits us, that's a good thing too.  But if we can save lives of people all over the earth, we will.  We don't have to wait around for direction to do so. 

[shmokes]

New Fred.  I'm pretty sure it's just you not getting the France thing here.  It looks to me like Drew and Dartful understood my jab just fine.  And as far as Utah goes...it's not just a red state.  It's the reddest state in the nation.  It's a crappy place to live, and probably the only theocracy in the union.

[GGKoul]

To GGKoul -
And what has Canada done to date GGKoul ?

[fredster]

GGKoul,

You're right. I appologize to all of you guys. I lost my cool.  My bad, completely.  You don't have to, and I was wrong to call you on it, you too Shmokes, you too Patrickl. I know you are all really good people who have strong beliefs.

This thing bothers me a lot. I mean a lot.  I feel so helpless seeing those people. I live paycheck to paycheck too, but I want so despirately to do more than just send some money. I'm waiting on the opportunity to send some goods and services.

I see all of those dead children and I look at my own and I feel so sad for the world. I can't think of any worst catastrophy in the history of man other than war that has caused so much death so quickly.

Again, I am sorry.  I was out of line.

[patrickl]

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

Actually, yes, but I can already see you aren't nearly as interested in clean debate as you are in flippant comments, so I'm finished.

[patrickl]

What is the exact figure you have in mind Patrickl? The numbers you see show only the government's aid.

[subzero23]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

[saint]

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

[subzero23]

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

I know but the sooner people realize it, the easier it is to accept that there is always going to be death all around us.

I know

[Bones]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

Comments like this only go to prove how removed you are from reality. Please eat yellow cake.

[subzero23]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

Comments like this only go to prove how removed you are from reality. Please eat yellow cake.

I'm not removed from reality, far from it.. I just realize there's always going to be death

[saint]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

I know but the sooner people realize it, the easier it is to accept that there is always going to be death all around us.

I know

[subzero23]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

Only to you. I think my view on life is just different and uncaring.

[GGKoul]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

Only to you. I think my view on life is just different and uncaring.

Wow... ::shaking my head in disbelief::

[Bones]

There are people sorting the remains of tens of thousands of people and many countries coming to grips with what has to be one of the biggest human tragedies humans have ever witnessed. The loss is overwhelming.

subzero, your lack of respect and compassion is appalling. Your comments are stated only for shock value and to get a response to feed your tiny under developed mind.

You should be banned from here forever on principal alone. I have nothing now, or ever more to say to you. I encourage others to follow.

[Grasshopper]

We can't fight nature

Actually mankind has been fighting nature ever since civilisation began. Whether we do it in a sustainable and intelligent manner is another matter of course.

[subzero23]

There are people sorting the remains of tens of thousands of people and many countries coming to grips with what has to be one of the biggest human tragedies humans have ever witnessed. The loss is overwhelming.

subzero, your lack of respect and compassion is appalling. Your comments are stated only for shock value and to get a response to feed your tiny under developed mind.

You should be banned from here forever on principal alone. I have nothing now, or ever more to say to you. I encourage others to follow.

Lol well that's your choice.
It's not for shock value. I say things here for the same reasons everyone else does.
And I don't see it as a tremendous loss I just see it as life.. in 150 years 7 billion people will be dead that were once alive.

[subzero23]

We can't fight nature

Actually mankind has been fighting nature ever since civilisation began. Whether we do it in a sustainable and intelligent manner is another matter of course.

I think mankind will eventually be able to tame nature in the literal sense (weather etc) to some extent, but they'll likely never be able to tame death