We're only as good as our money

[ChadTower]

Just more proof that the rest of the world only wants to deal with us when they are asking for money... ---fudgesicle--- them, they can deal with it themselves.  We're 'total scumbags' until they need money, then all of a sudden we're 'stingy'.  Uh, when does anyone EVER say thank you for the billions and billions of OUR DOLLARS we send around the world? 

That never fails to piss me off, thinking about how much we could do in our own country with the nearly unlimited amount we send out around the world to ungrateful places.

[GGKoul]

Just more proof that the rest of the world only wants to deal with us when they are asking for money... <auto-censored> them, they can deal with it themselves.

[ChadTower]

Ah yes, the coalition made up of 90%+ American troops, resources, and casualties.

You're telling me billions of dollars a year in foreign aid buys us a few thousand poorly trained troops that don't do jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- but sit around and use US physical resources?

[DrewKaree]

According to all sorts of folks here, that coalition only equalled 3 or 4 Ethiopian troops and a few white handkerchiefs from the French

I dunno what prompted this, but I'm interested to hear it, C T.

What galls me is hearing crap about how we just committed the most money in U.S. history to AIDS efforts, and -IT'S PAINTED AS NOT ENOUGH- yet to help the Iraqi people, we're said by our own Senators to be spending TOO MUCH! 

We never spend enough on someone's pet project, yet we seem to be so far in debt we can't pay the interest on loans we OWE OTHER COUNTRIES!  Perhaps after Mr Byrd retires we'll be able to save all the money on the stellar road system in his state on paying down the debt.  With all the money his state gets, we'll be out of debt in less than five years

Ya know what?  I say we invade another oil-rich country in the name of WMD's, steal all their oil so we can save some caribou instead of their camels, sand toads, snakes and whatnot, and sell it to the French.

[ChadTower]

This is the story that prompted my rant, which admittedly I shouldn't have made:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/powell.aid/index.html

The next person that tells me "WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL" is going to get punched in the head.  IF WE INVADED FOR OIL, WHY THE *EFF* DIDN'T WE TAKE ANY?!

I hate living in MA most of the time.  Moron liberals who couldn't justify views they don't even understand and have never bothered to think through to a conclusion.  FULL OF THEM.

[Grasshopper]

I see the Christmas spirit didn't last very long........

[DrewKaree]

I see the Christmas spirit didn't last very long........

When someone tells us we need to do even more than what we're doing, it kinda makes it disappear quickly.

[Sephroth57]

yeah im not sure whats goin on here... but its bull$hit!! and thats a fact

[Dartful Dodger]

I see the Christmas spirit didn't last very long........

When someone tells us we need to do even more than what we're doing, it kinda makes it disappear quickly.

In America, despite what the rest of the world thinks, it's illegal to celebrate any Christian holidays.

[patrickl]

Just more proof that the rest of the world only wants to deal with us when they are asking for money...

That was a remark (of a relief worker up to his neck in distressed people) about rich nations. That would also include Europe and Japan. No just the US.

As usual "the US" looks at this the way of absolute figures. Of course the US is a big country so being the biggest contributer doesn't mean that much. The Netherlands immediately pledged $2.5 million for relief aid (and more when it is needed). Scale that to population and you get $47 million. Scale it by GNP (2003) and you get $72 million. So the dutch contribute a lot more even on our first pledge and he called us stingy too.

What bothers me most here is that 50K up to maybe 80K people are dead and all "the US" can whine about is money!

[GGKoul]

Ah yes, the coalition made up of 90%+ American troops, resources, and casualties.

You're telling me billions of dollars a year in foreign aid buys us a few thousand poorly trained troops that don't do jack <auto-censored> but sit around and use US physical resources?

Plus this buys the US the ability to fly jets over the country when attacking another.

[GGKoul]

This is the story that prompted my rant, which admittedly I shouldn't have made:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/powell.aid/index.html

The next person that tells me "WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL" is going to get punched in the head.

[Dartful Dodger]

What bothers me most here is that 50K up to maybe 80K people are dead and all "the US" can whine about is money!

What bothers me most here is that

[ChadTower]

And if the Dutch want to give that much money, fine, let the Dutch give up Dutch money.  I'm sure the Dutch send out just as many billions in foreign aid around the world as we do, right?  The Dutch spend hundreds of millions to fight a behavioral disease in Africa, right?  The Dutch have to fund policing the entire freakin' planet, right?

Let the Dutch contribute what the Dutch want to contribute but until their overall contribution to the world's "poor nations" comes to within a fraction of ours they should keep their Dutch mouths shut about our numbers.

[DYNAGOD]

Ive got an idea...I think 2005 should be all about giving..
To ourselves..
For one year..America doesnt give one dime to the nations of the world, doesnt contribute one dime to international aid,crumbling nations,internal political pork,etc etc..
we instead, project all that capital back on the people whom are working hard to make it but yet are suffering daily at the hands of our own govements piss poor spending habits and dealing with a declining quality of life daily for it..
i think 2005 should be all about getting america back to where it needs to be..
on another note,funny, i didnt see any international aid packages coming our way when florida was hit by 3 consecutive hurricanes causing billions on lost revenue and decreased oil shipping...

[DrewKaree]

Chad, I'm so sick and tired of trying to read between the lines about what you're saying.  Can you for once just come out and state how you really feel? 

  

[GGKoul]

Chad, I'm so sick and tired of trying to read between the lines about what you're saying.

[fredster]

What bothers me most here is that 50K up to maybe 80K people are dead and all "the US" can whine about is money!

That wasn't the point. It's horrific what has happened. The point I think Chad was making was that it doesn't matter what we do, we are always demonized by other countries.

Speaking for myself, I bet you will see a huge outpouring of goods and services as well as money to protect these people.

[GGKoul]

Sorry that some people see it fit to minimize or overstate our goals to suit their own world view, but we are there to help at a governmental and individual level in times like these.

We don't need thanks with caveats like this from GGKoul, who has a chip on his shoulder big time -

Yes, but the US doesn't just give away the money.

[Dartful Dodger]

GGKoul

I wanted to make fun of your "global politics 101" post, but when I hit the quote button I got a "This post has been removed" error.

Don't worry, I read the post, and it hasn't changed my opinion of you, it just reinforced it.

 

[GGKoul]

GGKoul

I wanted to make fun of your "global politics 101" post, but when I hit the quote button I got a "This post has been removed" error.

Don't worry, I read the post, and it hasn't changed my opinion of you, it just reinforced it.

 

Glad I was able to help.

[Sephroth57]

i agree, even if not for a year, for 6 months. if we stopped sending foreign aid to all these countries that send us nothing back and spent it all on our own country fixing and making things better, it would be great. I think were being a little too nice to other people and should watch our own back. Once you get too friendly with everyone you forget about those people that still hate you and are just smiling to your face

[DrewKaree]

Once you get too friendly with everyone you forget about those people that still hate you and are just smiling to your face

While they plot to blow up buildings in your country


GG, mebbe the translation was lost there.   Dunno.  It seems as ifthe entire post I last had went right over your head. 

[Dartful Dodger]

GG, mebbe the translation was lost there.

[fredster]

And I agree with  DYNAGOD, what if the US stop giving foreign aid and invested the money internally?  The US could use the billions of dollars to fix some internal issues.

We give that money because those people need it more than we do. Sure, we try and help others. It's not completely self centered. IF it was we wouldn't give any to third world countries.  We do it to help out.

Hey whatta you know? The US acted without a UN mandate again. We jumped right into a world situation without asking anybody what they thought about it. Darn us.

I'm just stating the facts of world politics.

  I guess you are an expert in world politics and we should just accept what you say as the undisputed truth.

2nd, During 9/11, I was the first person in my company of 600+ employees to go to the Red Cross to donate blood.  And I even set up a blood donation day at my company to get more blood donors for the injured people in New York.  So don't tell me I don't do anything to help a situation.

Thank you. Now let's quick bickering and figure out what we as a community should do to help these people.

[GGKoul]

And I agree with

[Shape D.]

I had a homeless guy ask me for money once, and I went to give him a dollar. (the only dollar I had at the time) As I tried to hand it to him he said "Thats it".  I kept my dollar that day, and that guy can starve if he want's to be a jerk about my generosity. Not that I didn't want to help him. but what makes people think they have the right to question what is offered freely to them.

[Dartful Dodger]

I had a homeless guy ask me for money once, and I went to give him a dollar. (the only dollar I had at the time) As I tried to hand it to him he said "Thats it".

[Shape D.]

With one ticket I won a $50 gift certificate at an Irish bar/restaurant.

Thats a whole lot of car bombs.

[Mameotron]

This is the story that prompted my rant, which admittedly I shouldn't have made:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/powell.aid/index.html

The next person that tells me "WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL" is going to get punched in the head.

[fredster]

Has anybody seen any story about the ships at sea? I  bet there were lots of small boats that won't come home to port.

30 foot + tidal waves would have destroyed a lot of small crafts, but we have yet to find out just how many.

[GGKoul]

Bush said $35m plege is only the begining

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6762079/

[patrickl]

Bush said $35m plege is only the begining

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6762079/

This issue is taken way out of proportion. As I said before, the guy who said this was up to his neck in victims, so of course he wants more money. In general he says that he expects rich nations to contribute more money quickly. Pretty obvious. I'm appalled that people try to make this into a political discussion. I'm even more shocked at the reply of some people here (how on earth is it possible that "the world" percieves 'mericans as "greedy pompous manipulating war mongering rednecks"?  ).

I'm glad to see that at least Fredster has his heart in the right place.

The victims need aid now, money should not be an issue! I don't know what the bible says about not helping people in need, but I hope it involves some burning in hell.

[ChadTower]

it's not about helping people in need, it's about MY choosing where MY money goes to help.  I give a LOT to charities but the recipients are MY choice and I'd rather the gov't leave that choice up to me.

[fredster]

We will help - Here's a quote from The President of the United States of America (today) :

[President] Bush said he would also examine a suggestion from German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on whether debt relief for Somalia and Indonesia would help hasten relief and reconstruction for the nation.

He added that the aid pouring in to the nations is only the beginning of U.S. assistance.

"We're still in the stage of immediate help. But slowly, but surely, the size of the problem will become known, particularly when it comes to rebuilding infrastructure and community to help these affected parts of the world get back up on their feet," Bush said after phone conversations with leaders from Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Thailand and India.

We are on it.  We are all over it.

[shmokes]

Chad, if you don't like America why don't you move to France?

[Dartful Dodger]

Chad, if you don't like America why don't you move to France?

Just because you think France doesn't care about helping others, doesn't mean you should ask Chad to move there.

[shmokes]

Well...it seems reasonable to assume that if America DOES care about helping others that France, naturally, would do the opposite.  Right?

[DrewKaree]

He's got a point. 

We speak Engrish in America.  They do the opposite.

Our women bathe and shave their armpits (libyans don't count).  They do the opposite.

We generally aren't rude and condescending to Americans.  They do the opposite.

We want to do the right thing and free a country from its nutjob dictator.  They want to do the opposite.

We want to use our white handkerchiefs for something other than surrendering.  They want to do the opposite.

    

He's got you trapped in a corner, Dartful.   

[ChadTower]

Chad, if you don't like America why don't you move to France?

I could... French is my first language, so it wouldn't be much of a problem.

[paigeoliver]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

[danny_galaga]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

i can't believe i'm saying this, but i wouldn't totally disagree with paige 

there certainly is a total breakdown in how aid gets to people and more often than not, it doesn't. certainly is down to sheer greed and opportunism. why more african despots never make it to war crimes tribunals is beyond me...

[patrickl]

I have to agree on stopping aid that is given on a regular basis. People just grow dependent on the money and it indeed seems to end up in the wrong hands (eventually with arms dealers and builders).

In this case we are talking about a disaster. People lost their live or livelyhood and they need help. They will not grow dependent on the money since it's a one time deal (perhaps prolonged over a while since the buildup will take some time). One might argue that they should have been better prepared, but that's quite a stretch seeing how this is not really a common occurence.

So in this case I feel these people shoud get our money. I sent (a tiny bit I'll agree) of mine anyway.

[DrewKaree]

I have to agree on stopping aid that is given on a regular basis. People just grow dependent on the money and it indeed seems to end up in the wrong hands

*looks around to see if he's on the correct forum* 

[fredster]

According to the President, he said yesterday that 40% of all the money that is given in the world comes from the US.

40%.

I believe it was 2.3 billion dollars in Aid the US gives.

Billion.

Wow.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Chad is a proud American now.  The point of this thread was that he was upset the world doesn't respect the contributions the US gives the world.

He makes some really good points.  Aid that we have given has been mis-appropriated by crooked politicians in the past.  If we didn't give any we wouldn't support them.  IE Saddam, Arafat.

But then, at least some of it does go where it belongs, and that wouldn't happen anymore.

[GGKoul]

Chad, if you don't like America why don't you move to France?

I could... French is my first language, so it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Or you could move to Quebec... 

[GGKoul]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

As I said before, Forgein Aid is used in order to get miltary, civil, cultural or commerce exchanges with the poor nation.  If give you this aid.. you have to buy American or use American contractors to develop your instructure.

[ChadTower]

Or you could move to Quebec...

[paigeoliver]

I am actually of the opinion that we drop all foreign aid, permanently. And that EVERYONE should drop all aid to Africa altogether. All African aid is just swallowed up by greedy warlords and military dictators. If we stopped propping up those systems than maybe the african people might have a chance. It would be a very slim chance, since history has proven that very few people in Africa are concerned with anything other than themselves, and most in power will let people die just to make a tiny profit.

As I said before, Forgein Aid is used in order to get miltary, civil, cultural or commerce exchanges with the poor nation.  If give you this aid.. you have to buy American or use American contractors to develop your instructure.

They aren't developing any infrastructure. They are shooting things, knocking down what little infrastructure they do have, and hoarding as much as they can.

Building a palace, an airport, and a highway that goes between them is not infrastructure.

It is like everyone there is all about short term gain. Zimbabwe recently had a bunch of farms owned by (white) european settlers siezed and given to various native farmers, who proceeded to eat the seeds rather than plant crops, and now those lands lay barren.

[shmokes]

Shmokes,

Chad is a proud American now.  The point of this thread was that he was upset the world doesn't respect the contributions the US gives the world.

He makes some really good points.  Aid that we have given has been mis-appropriated by crooked politicians in the past.  If we didn't give any we wouldn't support them.  IE Saddam, Arafat.

But then, at least some of it does go where it belongs, and that wouldn't happen anymore.

*pats Fredster on the head*

It's okay....I know....irony is hard.

He's complaining that the U.S. Government is choosing how to spend HIS money instead of letting him decide who to give his money to.  He's criticizing the American Government, much like us apparently nonproud Americans criticize how our current president spends our money in Iraq.

I know this will be difficult by try to imagine yourself in a world with humor.  Then try to remember this really common thing where conservatives suggest that criticizing our government is unpatriotic.  They might even go so far as suggest that liberals who would criticize our government should move to France or they might even subtly suggest that we are not proud Americans.

Now, imagine that I am a liberal who fancies himself as having a sense of this humor thing.  And imagine that I see a conservative criticizing the government and I make an attempt at this humor by suggesting he move to France.  This is funny, especially to those who have been around for a couple months and have seen how often I've been on the other side of the "move to France" thing.  I guess you must not have been around then -- you know, back during the political posts; this seems to have gone over your head.

[ChadTower]

*pats Fredster on the head*

It's okay....I know....irony is hard.

Irony isn't that hard... what IS hard is tolerating unwarranted condescension.

[DYNAGOD]

so we GIVE AWAY 3+ billion a year..
but yet schools dont have books or computers, children living in the streets,poverty and joblessness everwhere etc etc..
we need to look inward for a little while and take care of our own.

im sure its no coincidence that money from donations makes its way into the hands of warlords and tyrants.. im sure its more by design than accident..
remeber ,your countries goverment does things everyday that you think only other goverments would do..

[shmokes]

*pats ChadTower on the head*

It's okay....I know.....tolerating unwarranted condescension is hard. 

[patrickl]

According to the President, he said yesterday that 40% of all the money that is given in the world comes from the US.

40%.

I believe it was 2.3 billion dollars in Aid the US gives.

Billion.

Wow.

That's weird. I thought total world aid was something like $50 billion or more and I thought the US gave about $10 billion a year (i.e both far more than $2.3 billion, but also nowhere near 40%) Is this some definition trick perhaps? Or maybe 40% of the aid coming from the american continent?

There was a conference a while back where the rich countries decided to spend 0.7% of their GNP on aid and the US is so far only spending 0.14%.

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

:edit: actually I looked it up and I found some "right wing" article (on an apparent "too liberal" New York Times article)that states the US spend $10.9 billion a year.
http://www.timeswatch.org/twarticles/2004/20041228.asp

Anyway as I said before this is peanuts compared to how much money the US government gives it's own people so there is no need for nationalistic "let the world just go to hell and well manage on our own" sentiments. Don't make me end this discussion in another goodwin's law finaly. Some people here are really tempting me to start comparing things to that other nationalistic regime again.

[GGKoul]

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

Thanks for supporting my earlier posts.. 

[patrickl]

The US support is also mostly "tied" to so that the troubled nations need to spend their money on US goods or companies making the support they get less valuable. AFAIK the Netherlands is one of the few countries to give mostly "untied" support.

Thanks for supporting my earlier posts..

[ChadTower]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

[patrickl]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

Ok so the US spends $190 billion on farmers alone. Then there is the military which is basically a subsidy plan for the airplane and vehicle industry as well. Now you think that adding another measly $10 billion to that huge subsidy budget is gonna make a noticable difference. Wow you really must be an efficiency wizzard.

The "is it really aid to get your own money back?" claim I don't get. They don't get "their" money back.

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

[ChadTower]

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

Actually, yes, but I can already see you aren't nearly as interested in clean debate as you are in flippant comments, so I'm finished. 

[Dermbrian]

The aid 'the goverment' gives (foreign or domestic) is kind of like putting a your church offering on your maxxed out credit card, isn't it?  

With our national debt and annual deficits it's hard to ask our country to assist when needs arise, other than personal charitable donations.  Our common funds are tapped out.

Brian

[GGKoul]

BTW to put the money in perspective (and perhaps put ChadTowers mind at ease) the US spent $190 billion on agricultural subsidies. So the local americans get plenty "aid" from their government too.

Oh no doubt the American people receive a LOT of aid... but then again, is it really aid to get your own money back?

If I could accomplish it, there are a LOT of things I'd do with domestic aid that would make it so efficient we'd be able to easily send many times what we already send and it wouldn't even matter.

Aid money life-cycle

- Rich Country gives Poor Country via Rich Country tax dollars.
- Poor Country buys goods/services from Rich Country using this aid money.
- Company A from Rich Country sells goods/services to poor company.

[fredster]

To DynaGod -

but yet schools dont have books or computers, children living in the streets,poverty and joblessness everwhere etc etc..
we need to look inward for a little while and take care of our own.

Where is that? I live in a small community in TN.  There are 6 or 7 Schools. They have books and computers and they are clean and well managed. The mean income out here is below the national average.  Where are these schools and why don't they have the funding? 

To GGKoul -
And what has Canada done to date GGKoul ?  You are pretty good at point out what we have done.  Surely you can describe what your country should do?   What have you told the people around you to do, after all, they are your people and your opinion matters there.

Shmokes:

Now, imagine that I am a liberal who fancies himself as having a sense of this humor thing.  And imagine that I see a conservative criticizing the government and I make an attempt at this humor by suggesting he move to France.  This is funny, especially to those who have been around for a couple months and have seen how often I've been on the other side of the "move to France" thing.  I guess you must not have been around then -- you know, back during the political posts; this seems to have gone over your head.

I really don't even know what you are getting at, and I am struggling to care.  You must be a real hit there in Red State Utah.     I think that the "move the France" thing when over your head...  One day you might get it. Maybe.

Patrickl

Anyway as I said before this is peanuts compared to how much money the US government gives it's own people so there is no need for nationalistic "let the world just go to hell and well manage on our own" sentiments. Don't make me end this discussion in another goodwin's law finaly. Some people here are really tempting me to start comparing things to that other nationalistic regime again.

What is the exact figure you have in mind Patrickl? The numbers you see show only the government's aid.  It doesn't show the aid americans give out of their pockets.  What is our "debt" to others? Isn't it enough that we provide the aid we do ? Are you saying that The President of the United States is lying?

I think that when this story unfolds you will see that the US has the will, the equipment, and the heart to be on the front lines providing what aid we can.  We'll be out there saving as many lives of innocents as we can.  I think that the US gives from it's heart and we give to just help.  If it also benifits us, that's a good thing too.  But if we can save lives of people all over the earth, we will.  We don't have to wait around for direction to do so. 

[shmokes]

New Fred.  I'm pretty sure it's just you not getting the France thing here.  It looks to me like Drew and Dartful understood my jab just fine.  And as far as Utah goes...it's not just a red state.  It's the reddest state in the nation.  It's a crappy place to live, and probably the only theocracy in the union.

[GGKoul]

To GGKoul -
And what has Canada done to date GGKoul ?

[fredster]

GGKoul,

You're right. I appologize to all of you guys. I lost my cool.  My bad, completely.  You don't have to, and I was wrong to call you on it, you too Shmokes, you too Patrickl. I know you are all really good people who have strong beliefs.

This thing bothers me a lot. I mean a lot.  I feel so helpless seeing those people. I live paycheck to paycheck too, but I want so despirately to do more than just send some money. I'm waiting on the opportunity to send some goods and services.

I see all of those dead children and I look at my own and I feel so sad for the world. I can't think of any worst catastrophy in the history of man other than war that has caused so much death so quickly.

Again, I am sorry.  I was out of line.

[patrickl]

Did you ever follow any economics classes?

Actually, yes, but I can already see you aren't nearly as interested in clean debate as you are in flippant comments, so I'm finished.

[patrickl]

What is the exact figure you have in mind Patrickl? The numbers you see show only the government's aid.

[subzero23]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

[saint]

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

[subzero23]

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

I know but the sooner people realize it, the easier it is to accept that there is always going to be death all around us.

I know

[Bones]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

Comments like this only go to prove how removed you are from reality. Please eat yellow cake.

[subzero23]

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

Comments like this only go to prove how removed you are from reality. Please eat yellow cake.

I'm not removed from reality, far from it.. I just realize there's always going to be death

[saint]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

That's just sad.

Personally I don't think the US should donate any more time or money.. and the front page ad on this website shouldn't be here. We can't fight nature, we should live our own lives. I'd want money if something happened to me but that's because I'm a hypocrit, or at least someone who has different opinions based on my position. I always have a really cold POV on things because you know that in 150 years everyone who was alive today will be dead.

I know but the sooner people realize it, the easier it is to accept that there is always going to be death all around us.

I know

[subzero23]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

Only to you. I think my view on life is just different and uncaring.

[GGKoul]

You misunderstand me. It's your perspective on life that's sad.

Only to you. I think my view on life is just different and uncaring.

Wow... ::shaking my head in disbelief::

[Bones]

There are people sorting the remains of tens of thousands of people and many countries coming to grips with what has to be one of the biggest human tragedies humans have ever witnessed. The loss is overwhelming.

subzero, your lack of respect and compassion is appalling. Your comments are stated only for shock value and to get a response to feed your tiny under developed mind.

You should be banned from here forever on principal alone. I have nothing now, or ever more to say to you. I encourage others to follow.

[Grasshopper]

We can't fight nature

Actually mankind has been fighting nature ever since civilisation began. Whether we do it in a sustainable and intelligent manner is another matter of course.

[subzero23]

There are people sorting the remains of tens of thousands of people and many countries coming to grips with what has to be one of the biggest human tragedies humans have ever witnessed. The loss is overwhelming.

subzero, your lack of respect and compassion is appalling. Your comments are stated only for shock value and to get a response to feed your tiny under developed mind.

You should be banned from here forever on principal alone. I have nothing now, or ever more to say to you. I encourage others to follow.

Lol well that's your choice.
It's not for shock value. I say things here for the same reasons everyone else does.
And I don't see it as a tremendous loss I just see it as life.. in 150 years 7 billion people will be dead that were once alive.

[subzero23]

We can't fight nature

Actually mankind has been fighting nature ever since civilisation began. Whether we do it in a sustainable and intelligent manner is another matter of course.

I think mankind will eventually be able to tame nature in the literal sense (weather etc) to some extent, but they'll likely never be able to tame death

[danny_galaga]

remeber ,your countries goverment does things everyday that you think only other goverments would do..

hey, cool saying  that applies quite well to the australian government  (cop emoticon used for authorative effect)

[DrewKaree]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say



*searches for another dead horse to beat*

[danny_galaga]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say



*searches for another dead horse to beat*

i didn't know beck was as politically adept as he is musically!

'two turntables and a microphone...'

[patrickl]

Chad, doing a bit of noodling around the internet today....this probably sums it up for you pretty well, I'd bet

- the "myopic zeal" to see/use the moment for political advancement/advantage - pretty good assessment, I'd say

OK, I'll bite on your heart breaking story.

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others? Lets rephrase that into a simple question. Which people are more charitable?:
- $3.50 per person ("current" Norwegian government pledge)
- $1.19 per person (current US government pledge)

In fact the Norwegians were contemplating pledging $180 million a few days ago. I'm not sure if they did already, but that would make it a whopping $39.50 per citizen (that could be compared to the US government pledging $12 billion).

OK another question. How much did the rich countries (US, Europe, Japan etc) actually pledge when Egeland complained he needed more money? (lemme give a hint: it's either $15 million or $35 million for the US, but I'm not sure of the timing)

Another easy one then. Is $350 million (current US government pledge) the same as $15 or $35 million (the US government pledge at the time Egeland made his request for more money)? Ok I'll answer that one, "No it's not".

So why does Beck mention the $350 million? That question is a bit harder though. It's hard to choose between "He's actually that dumb/uninformed" or "He is blatantly lying to prove his point".

Fact is that at the time when Egeland cried out he needed more money there was far too little money pledged. I severely doubt he would make the same claim now (with pledges up to $4 billion).

I do agree that it's nice the US is contributing even to people oppose to them going to war. However, unlike mr Beck I don't think that political differences are really a reason to just let the people suffer.

[DrewKaree]

i didn't know beck was as politically adept as he is musically!

'two turntables and a microphone...'

I think the proper terminology is "wiggety wiggety wack"

Being Tragically Hip myself, I feel it's my duty to keep alive as many old skool phrases as possible.  Who knows, someday I may be anointed as a fresh DJ or something.

I like his business slogan - "I'm pro smokestack"  It just kills me!

[DrewKaree]

OK, I'll bite on your heart breaking story.

It wasn't intended for you, but rather for Chad Tower, perhaps to better flesh out his position, hence the first few words of the post.  I'm glad you were able to read it, though sorry that you seemed unable to comprehend it.

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others?

Because they do.  Simple math shouldn't be something that eludes you, yet it seems you've lost the ability to add and subtract the numbers.  It's why there's a need to educate you here, since your own "myopic zeal" (I love that phrase - it's so fitting  ) requires you to find a way to label the U.S. aid as lackluster.

US government pledge

I'll have to ask you to define at every step what exactly you are referring to when attempting to downplay the U.S. and its contributions to the effort.  Being an American, I lump each American's contribution in - be it personal, corporate, or governmental.  If it serves your purpose, by all means pick and choose which part of American generosity you'd like to use.  I'd like to think an educated standpoint might be able to fathom that American giving is American giving, but I understand the requirement to separate the facts and numbers and use whichever one fits your position at that time when attempting to delegitimize my country and its citizens' actions.  You'll have to pardon me for utilizing your tactics myself.  I figure if you follow your backwards logic the other way, you'll end up getting it right eventually.

In fact the Norwegians were contemplating pledging $180 million a few days ago.

That's a nice sentiment.  Please be sure to add it to the thread when they make up their mind.  Also, thank you for giving us the hint about the giving -after- Egeland's statement was made.  It helped clear up Norway's following of our lead for me (and also how you presumably view thier belated effort) quite nicely.

that could be compared to the US government pledging $12 billion

I'll be sure to let my local representative know that we can stop our aid payments for this year and simply send our yearly amount to the tidal wave effort so it compares equally for you.  Please do likewise and let your local representatives know that they will probably soon be called upon by those countries we no longer give aid to, and be sure to let him know that you want to do your part in those efforts too.  Who knows, maybe you can even start a fundraiser or something to get the message out.  I'm guessing your countrymen, like yourself, are completely oblivious to the aid the U.S. sends worldwide each and every year, so I'm giving you this opportunity to get in on the ground floor of this stellar operation!

How much did the rich countries (US, Europe, Japan etc) actually pledge when Egeland complained he needed more money?

I notice you forgot to mention Norway's belated efforts too, but not to worry, I like to help you when I can.  In case you missed it, I put it a couple of sentences above here.

Another easy one then. Is $350 million (current US government pledge) the same as $15 or $35 million (the US government pledge at the time Egeland made his request for more money)? Ok I'll answer that one, "No it's not".

See, here I was thinking simple basic math concepts eluded you, but down HERE you show you can comprehend them somewhat.  Must be selective math reasoning.  I'll try to help you out whenever math questions are posed in the future, mmmkay?

So why does Beck mention the $350 million?

Not to try to pry too much, but do they have RIF (Reading Is Fundamental) programs for you to get into?  It always seemed to defy logic when you were missing things, but I think it's just a reading comprehension issue.

To help you yet again, I'm enclosing a picture of the author's name at the top of the story.  I know, it seems as if you had trouble with the rest of the story too, so that one shouldn't surprise me, but call me kooky....I figured reading the author's name wasn't a tough one.

I do agree that it's nice the US is contributing even to people oppose to them going to war. However, unlike mr Beck I don't think that political differences are really a reason to just let the people suffer.

To steal a line of yours - that's odd reasoning.  You viewed this as "mr Beck" thinking we should be "letting the people suffer due to political differences"?  It seemed to me, and probably 99% of the readers that this story was about Egeland and his use of this tragedy for political gain, but it was probably kind of hard to ascertain...sorry.....figure out.....from the subheading of the article Mr Kerry wrote - "How a little known UN bureaucrat turned Humanitarian Giving into a Contest". 

I'll try to get more stories with pictures if I know you'll be looking at them

[Dartful Dodger]

DrewKaree if you don't know by now people in other countries don't care how much we give, it will always be too little.  Remeber Bush won and the rest of the world is pist that we will still living in the greatest country.

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.  It doesn't have catastrophic hurricanes, earth quakes, or flash floods. He also knows that when his country has a real problem, like another Hitler, his people will give in without a fight, and then he'll just sit back and wait for the USA to rescue them.

[Gunstar Hero]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!!! 

[patrickl]

Let me just try to explain once more. Egeland said to ALL rich nations that he expected more money from them quickly to help the victims. They needed money quickly to prevent further loss of live. That's really all he said. He had a very good point at the time and I don't see a reason to get so worked up about it.

Obviously many countries/people listened or donated on their own.

The idea that giving is a contest is not Egeland's point. I'd say that idea is more brought forward  by the people who took offence to the "we need more money question" by claiming "we" (the US) gives the most already and that even the most is not good enough.

If you put things in perspective you see a different picture and indeed it is surprising that the US contribution is still rather low, but I cannot imagine that it will stay at that level. Powell is a good guy (it's really sad that he's leaving) and he won't let this one slide. So it might very well be that the US will up its pledges to a couple of billion dollars too.

CNN gives an overview of money pledged so far:

Region	Government	Private	Total
Europe	2.038,96	994,96	3.033,92
Asia	1.406,50		1.406,50
Oceania	818,60	106,00	924,60
US	350,00	324,00	674,00
World Bank	250,00		250,00
Middle East	91,00	101,13	192,13
Americas (excl US)	82,00	76,00	158,00
Eastern Europe	1,99	6,35	8,34
Africa	0,75		0,75
Total	5.039,80	1.608,44	6.648,24

I'm especially impressed by Australia and Norway. It seems Norway indeed went for the $180 million pledge (up from the initial $16 million). Australia pledged close to $1 billion (with 20 million citizens, that's almost $50 per person ... WOW)!

BTW Norway is country in Europe

[patrickl]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.

[Gunstar Hero]

I'm digging how the US (one country) is being compared to REGIONS of the planet.

Damn we got it goin' on. 

Seriously though, say what you will. I'm sure if we didn't have this f'd up Iraq situation to deal with we'd be even more there, but hey, it is what it is.

America haters rejoice. We'll always give you more to hate on us for. It's just how we are.

[Dartful Dodger]

The idea that giving is a contest is not Egeland's point. I'd say that idea is more brought forward

[DrewKaree]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.  It doesn't have catastrophic hurricanes, earth quakes, or flash floods.

You forgot mudslides and tornadoes.

I'm just trying to help him out, as RIF and adding and subtracting seems to be out of his grasp thus far.

[Dartful Dodger]

You forgot mudslides and tornadoes.

I'm just trying to help him out, as RIF and adding and subtracting seems to be out of his grasp thus far.

I left out tornadoes because it's been over 6 months since anyone was killed in the US by one.  I figure the rest of the world has a 6 month memory.  The USA on the other hand does not forget... or at least the majority by 3 over million.

Speaking of forgetting, you've had the same icon for a month now.

[Jabba]

Hey, WTF!!! Everyone gives as he/she feels. It does not matter how much each country gives/gave. What counts is the money gets to the people who need it now before more death occurs! From what I hear, there is now tooo much money and there will be huge waste in delivery of services that are no longer required.  Hell, Canada took almost three weeks to get our DART team over there. Now they are standing around figuring out what to do! Go figures!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

The next person that tells me "WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL" is going to get punched in the head.  IF WE INVADED FOR OIL, WHY THE *EFF* DIDN'T WE TAKE ANY?!

WE SHOULDN'T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THEIR OIL, THEN *NOT* TAKE ANY.

IF WE INVADED FOR OIL, WHY THE *EFF* DIDN'T WE TAKE ANY?!

You really gullible enough to think we *won't*?  We haven't even secured the "Green Zone", how the hell do you suppose we'd truck out buttloads of oil? Also, if  not for oil, exactly *WHY* did we invade Iraq? WMD? How's that excuse workin' out for you?

I hate living in MA most of the time.  Moron liberals who couldn't justify views they don't even understand and have never bothered to think through to a conclusion.  FULL OF THEM.

 

I LOVE that you live in MA. That means all that wingnut rage is wasted...
Welcome, though. I'm just north of Boston myself.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

BTW,

Chad, I have to wonder, since you seem so upset about unjustly spent U.S. tax payer money, how do you feel about "Payolagate"? (The Bush Administration paying a conservative radio personality $250,000 in U.S. tax dollars to pump false NCLB propoganda over the airwaves)

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Uh, when does anyone EVER say thank you for the billions and billions of OUR DOLLARS we send around the world?

When does anyone EVER do anything out of the kindness of their heart, rather than to reap praise & rewards?

[SOAPboy]

Where is that? I live in a small community in TN.  There are 6 or 7 Schools. They have books and computers and they are clean and well managed. The mean income out here is below the national average.  Where are these schools and why don't they have the funding? 

My Parents live in a town where the cheapest house is 300,000

The schools there dont have enough money for Computers, so they dropped the class..

Amazing if you think about it..


And ive been to schools all over the US.. and not everyone had "nice" schools..
Its the Small town schools that had the nice gear.. the 5 million $ computer labs.. In fact, my high school where i graduated.. 7 million dollar computer lab, that was getting another 2 million for new computers.. a few million for a gym.. i THINK the football field was a 2 mill project.. hell, they even have REAL MARBLE steps for all the enterences..

mind you this is a school for a town that has a few thousand people

yet, in vegas, my middle schools, elementary schools, ect.. didnt have anything NEAR that.. no computers, if there were, they were crap and always broken.. crappy gyms, cracked cement steps..

sigh..

[DrewKaree]

Speaking of forgetting, you've had the same icon for a month now.

Sorry.  You hadn't commented, so I forgot to change it.  You like the new one?

It's what I think a lot of people do after reading patrick's post - sheer disbelief at his rationalization is sure to imprint a "qwerty" on many a forehead 

[danny_galaga]

i LIKE american money (",). it's so easy to colour copy and pass off in crowded shops 

just to mix it up a little...

[shmokes]

The USA on the other hand does not forget... or at least the majority by 3 over million.

You know what's really crazy?  How quickly NEW YORK forgets.  82% of Manhattan completely forgot about terrorism when they went to the polls.  That makes sense, though, really.  I mean, what do New Yorkers have to fear when it comes to terrorism? 

I'll tell you who DIDN'T forget....  Utah....Wyoming.....Nebraska....Montana.....Kansas....Alabama....Mississippi....  You know...the people who REALLY get terrorism.  They understand how dangerous terrorists are.  New Yorkers are just a bunch of whiny liberals who like to sit around talking about terrorism, but have no real experience with it.  They can hardly be blamed for their short memories.

You're a riot Dartful.  I think this stuff really gets you off.  "THE USA DOES NOT FORGET"  "BUSH WON SO I GET TO KEEP MY GUN" (my favorite...it almost rhymes even)  God...now that I type it, though, I'm kinda seeing ya.  I feel all warm and fuzzy now.  Give me some more fluffy things to say.  That was nice.

[patrickl]

Why does he claim the US contribution dwarfes the ones of the others? Lets rephrase that into a simple question. Which people are more charitable?:
- $3.50 per person ("current" Norwegian government pledge)
- $1.19 per person (current US government pledge)

It was your point.

You quote something where I corrected a false statement in an article quoted by someone else and then I started the whole thing? You do understand that the post I reacted to started the point don't you? I merely responded to the false claims given in that article. Blame Drew if you don't want to see stats.

Funny that you should mention "another Hitler" as our biggest worry.

Funnier still is I didn't mention "another Hitler" as your biggest worry.
I mentioned you have no worries, because the USA will rescue you.

Whatever way you put it, we indeed worry about "another Hitler", but with this one the US government is unlikely to help.

If it's okay with patrickl and the rest of the world the US government will now be using some of it's resources to take care of the victims of the flash floods and mudslides that have just struck in California.

[patrickl]

It's what I think a lot of people do after reading patrick's post - sheer disbelief at his rationalization is sure to imprint a "qwerty" on many a forehead

[patrickl]

I'm digging how the US (one country) is being compared to REGIONS of the planet.

Damn we got it goin' on.

[RacerX]

When does anyone EVER do anything out of the kindness of their heart, rather than to reap praise & rewards?

Actually, a lot of people do.  But you'll never hear about it precisely *because* they don't want any praise or rewards.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Actually, a lot of people do.  But you'll never hear about it precisely *because* they don't want any praise or rewards.

I agree. I prefer those people over those with the seemingly materialistic, egotistical, "I helped you so bow before me" mentality put forth in ChadTowers original post.

It seems a lot of whining is coming from the right side of the constituency in the U.S. and I find it appalling. The world came to our aid and offered united support after we lost 3000 people in the  9-11 attacks, and we pissed that unity away by thumbing our noses at them by invading *IRAQ* (a country which had *NOTHING* to do with the attacks) and now these very same people expect the rest of the world to get weak-kneed with the vapors at our enormous generosity w/ Tsunami aid. They seem to forget that immediately after the disaster, Bush only pledged $15 million for the entire effort. Compare that to $12 billion Bush handed out during the Florida hurricane relief effort and you can see why people may have seen us as stingy.

This current administration doesn't seem to care what the rest of the world thinks, and usually the Righties seem to lavish this behavior...why are they so up-in-arms about an assumed lack of respect? Is it only about the money?

[fredster]

Is it only about the money?

Mostly.

[Dartful Dodger]

Bush only pledged $15 million for the entire effort. Compare that to $12 billion Bush handed out during the Florida hurricane relief effort and you can see why people may have seen us as stingy.

If Bush spent more money on helping the people who sell their children into slavery and less on the people of Florida he could have won the election.

..oh wait, he did win.

Good times!

[danny_galaga]

Patrickl lives in a country that's the size of one our 50 states.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

If Bush spent more money on helping the people who sell their children into slavery and less on the people of Florida he could have won the election.

..oh wait, he did win.

If Bush spent more money on helping to up-armor our troops and less on celebrating *himself* ($40 million for inauguration) he could have saved some more troops from dying and helped support his war.

Oh wait, he didn't. Because he doesn't care.


mrC

[patrickl]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent WWII facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't win WWII, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies, but not the whole (US stands for something like 33% including action in the pacific region)
- The US join WWII last and only because Japan attacked and Germany/Italy declared war on them
- The US Joining WWII is not a favor to the europeans
- If the Allies had not won WWII not just europe, but the US as well would be speaking german (or perhaps Japanese, but surely not english).
- WWII was 60 years ago. If people feel they need to go so far back for something good their country did ...

To complete the history lesson, at the start of WWII the Netherlands was a neutral country (like Switzerland) and Germany stated that our neutrality would be respected. Dumb idea perhaps, but it worked for the Dutch through the first war. This time our location was strategically important so we were attacked. The Dutch surrendered after the Germans completely flattened Rotterdam and threatened to do the same to the Hague, Amsterdam and Utrecht. 3% of the dutch population died during WWII.

[Dartful Dodger]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent Iraq facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't go to war with Iraq alone, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies.
- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked
- The Allies Joining Iraq is not a favor to the USA
- If the USA does not win Iraq not just USA, but the world will would be speaking Muslim.
- Iraq isn't over. If people feel they need to make assumptions about the future to feel better about their country doing nothing ...

To complete the current events lesson, at the start of Iraq the Netherlands was a neutral country and Saddam stated their neutrality would be respected. Dumb idea perhaps, but it didn't work in WWII but they feel it was 60 years ago, so they believe there will be a different out come this time.

[GGKoul]

I usually just shrug when people misrepresent Iraq facts, but it probably is a good idea to set the record straight yes:
- The US didn't go to war with Iraq alone, the Allies did. Of course the US was a part of the Allies.
- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked
- The Allies Joining Iraq is not a favor to the USA
- If the USA does not win Iraq not just USA, but the world will would be speaking Muslim.
- Iraq isn't over. If people feel they need to make assumptions about the future to feel better about their country doing nothing ...

Sorry, but IRAQ never attacked the USA or any embassies.

[patrickl]

The scary part is that dartful actually thinks he has a point. Nice attempt at some humour though.

[danny_galaga]

- The US joined Iraq first only because the USA was attacked

huh?

[danny_galaga]

.

[shmokes]

I don't get it Danny....those look like the exact same picture.

Kerry lost so the country will go bust (...sorry, Dartful inspired me to try my hand at making clever near-rhymes).

[mr.Curmudgeon]

(...sorry, Dartful inspired me to try my hand at making clever near-rhymes).

Then how about, "Bush Won. Armageddon's begun."

[iwillfearnoevil]

Yes, but the US doesn't just give away the money.