branching out....i'm starting my own side business building cabs!..need help

[hulkster]

yup, i have a few people interested in me building them a cab.  most of them want the smaller cocktails, but i know some others that would like the uprights.  ANYWAY, i have a few questions that require the vast knowledge of those who have done this before...

first of all, im ordering some business card cd-r's so i can burn like a little presentation or something with some video maybe some music on it showing what i can do, and the cab can do.  that way i can hand these out and people who doubt my ability can look at the pictures and decide for themselves if its worth it.  but...what i need from you guys is...

1.  a cool name for each of the cabs i build.  (some may not want my cab name plastered all over the place, but some might....plus i need something for my business cards)

2.  what things should i include on my little presentation?  should i have video?  should it be a little flash presentation? (although i formatted my old HD which had my copy of flash 5.0 on it)  im not so sure if i should put a game on there for them to sample for fear of legal issues, but what do you guys think??

any ideas on this to help get me started would be great.  this is by no means a large scale business.  i have at most 4 potential buyers right now, most of them people i know, so they are willing to wait till i get this all hammered out.  opinions/suggestions would be most helpful!

[hulkster]

anybody?

[Pixelhugger]

Don't put a game on the handout. Mame sucks on a non CP equipped PC and doesn't come close to letting them know how it'd be on a real cab. 

My 2 cents.

[hulkster]

yeah thats what i thought as well.  good to have a second opinion.  now for the name??

[patrickl]

YAHSC?

[hulkster]

um.....huh?

[stevejt]

A video on the Bussiness Card CD is a great idea.  Maybe you can have a video of someone going through the game selections.  I have learned that people's eyes light up alot more when they SEE the HUGE selection, that when you just tell them about it.  How about another one-zoomed in, so all they see is a well known like MS. Pac, or Space invaders, or Galaga, then zoom out to show it being played on one of your cabs-then maybe the player can exit back to the game selection screen, where the cam zooms back in to see the huge selection,(then you don't need the first video).   Hmmmmmmmmm....  Now that I think of it, after I get my first cab done, I think that is exactly the vid I am going to make.  But feel free to use the idea...lol


Good Luck!

Steve

[DrewKaree]

Make sure you add a photo of your smashed up toe along with a warning like "Don't let this happen to you, use MY toes instead" 

[paigeoliver]

Might also want to point out how they are paying you less than minimum wage for your labor.

My mame cabinets always sell at a "profit". My friends think I should build tons of them, "Dude you just made $400 on that one!!!" and I am like "Dude, I spent 31 hours on it, I could have gone to work instead and made more!".

[hulkster]

great replies!  thanks for the awesome ideas on the video and stuff steve.  zooming in and out showing the actual games and people playing them is a great idea.  now all i need is a camera!  doh! 

....maybe i should include a possible injury presentation, hmmmm ....

and paige, yeah i know you can make more money with work and stuff, but this is pretty fun, and its like extra money on top of work.

but NOW...i still need a cool name for this stuff im doing.  any suggestions?

[Jabba]

Just my .02 cents but if I wanted a cabinet made, I think I would want it personalized so I could show it off to my friends. I don't think I *personally* would want a "generic" cab name like "Ultracade". You could offer this as an "added bonus" for buying from your business. You are quite talented with the artwork based on your current cab, so you could mock up some cool graphics for your potential customers. I would probably stay away from using MAME In the title. Who knows annything about MAME other than us geeks anyways

Anyways, if you are looking for something generic,...maybe something *caution, cliches ahead* like...

Freecade
Multicade
BobCade, Barbcade, Garcade (personalized).


Or maybe you ask your client what their favourite game was and mock up the artwork around that.  You could also make the cab dimensions like their favourite game, etc, etc..

Just a few ideas... . Good luck with your business...

[hulkster]

hey thanks for the tips.  HOWEVER, i cannot possibly let you believe that the artwork done on my cab was by me!  my awesome artwork was done by none other than Pixelhugger himself.  so please credit him for the awesomeness of my artwork, not me. 

but i see your point on the naming thing, and i actually planned on using the customized name for each cab as per the customer.  but since im getting the business card stuff, i wanted to have a cool graphic or something on the front with a catchy name to show off.  see what im saying? 

[DrewKaree]

21 Inch Python Productions 

Hulkamamia Enterprises

Toe Stubbin' Goodness Manufacturing

Black Toenail Builders

Old Skool Building Corp

Childhood Memories Fabricators

Rock-M-Sock-M Restorations

No Quarter Necessary Enterprises

[hulkster]

21 Inch Python Productions

[DrewKaree]

I've GOT IT!

Screw the objections to "Enterprise", you've simply GOT to use this one:

Kramerica Enterprise

Failing that,

Kramerica Kabinet Konstruction (unless you don't want the whole anti-PC initials, then use "C's" for Cabinet Construction)

If you don't want the "enterprise", then ya, go with manufacturing, or with "Builders" or perhaps "Construction"

What about

Retro Builders

Wayback Manufacturing



Seriously, you just need to pick something you'll like, and make it "DIFFERENT" enough that folks will remember it for THAT. 

I don't remember the names of catalogs I get, but I remember the ones that DO stand out, such as Pottery Barn, Brookstone (speaking of which, anyone seen their newest catalog with 5 arcade cabs in 'em!), or The Sharper Image.

Make it something that's oddball, or just sticks in YOUR mind, because if it sticks in YOUR mind, it'll stick in someone ELSE'S mind too.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Kramerica Kabinet Konstruction (unless you don't want the whole anti-PC initials, then use "C's" for Cabinet Construction)

anti-PC? KKK?

Nawwwww.....

[hulkster]

hmmm, good point.

[DrewKaree]

hmmm, good point.  i may need to consult the marketing department here and maybe they can help me out.  good advice drew....thou art a bright lad.  doth sayeth whilst thoust camest, and stuff.

he heh heh he

[Sasquatch!]

I know that everyone thinks that those little business-card CDs are neat, but bear in mind that anyone who owns a slot-loading CD/DVD drive might not be able to play them.  Plus, most of the people that receive them find them to be kind of a pain in the arse.  Just my $0.02.

[hulkster]

slot loading???  dude, who owns slot loading?  5% of the pc population?  if they dont have a cd rom drive, they will just have to go to somebody elses to view it.  im not out to make a million dollars here, just some extra cash is all, so if i lose a customer because they cant read a cd thing, then so be it...no big deal.

its more of a look than anything else.  so we'll see.

[Floyd10]

Id go with a flash presentation with a cheesy song. Big corporations do it, and get paid lots, so I'd try it

[Zakk]

Biggest thing to consider, and I DO know what I'm talking about here, is customer support.  Consider how much time you are going to spend on each cab for the next 1-2-5-??? years fixing and debugging the machines.  Make your aftermarket support policies clear and upfront.  Here are just a few of the fun troubles I've had so far:

Delivered cab 200 kms away, 30 minutes after leaving his house, he is on my cell phone telling me he popped it open and tried to install an NES emulator and wrecked the software interface.

One cab left running non-stop for a year.  Computer burned due to dust buildup and overheating, and monitor was yellowed on the top vents from heat, and screen was screwed.

Quarter got lodged in a contact on a panel, and kept shorting out the i-pac till I found it.

Beer spilled on panel ruined artwork and made a good lot of the buttons gum up.

Machine tipped over when someone tried to move it, required almost 100% reconstruction.

Had to drive 400 kms just to find out that a USB fan plugged into a cabinet had made the computer bypass the mini-pac (neglected to tell me he stuffed a fan in there...)

Etc etc etc. 

Now I say if you really need the money, then maybe it's worth it, but if you don't then think long and hard.  Just my $.02  Remember, if these people can't build a cab themselves, they more than likely can't debug the problems either.

[hulkster]

wow.....well that sucks.  do you put have them sign a disclaimer or something?  give them a 90 day warranty or something?  i mean, 5 years down the road, i dont want to be liable for this.  whats the best way to go about providing support?

[RacerX]

I'm in the process of building two jukeboxes (for the cost of materials only) for two of my best friends.  They keep telling me that I should start building them and selling them, and my answer is always the same. 

"No way in hell."

I will not sell things like this because I just flat out do not want to and will not support it after it leaves my house.  I spend all day at work writing applications and supporting existing ones.  So I don't want to do it at home, too.

It wouldn't be so bad, but, you see, users are idiots.   

[hulkster]

true.  but man, there is money to be made here.  they are paying for my knowledge and the willingness to construct something for them.  i may just put in an agreement that states that after 90 days, im not liable for support, but you can check on so and so's website for help or something.

[Zakk]

Racer is right, users are idiots.  I can guarantee you that it will affect sales if they think they don't get any support on it.  Would you buy a car if you knew that the garage is closing in 90 days and you'll have to repair the engine or transmission with info on the internet and an allen wrench?

The only paper they sign is from my lawyer that states the machine had no software of any kind on it.  If that machine ends up being used in a bar somewhere, I don't need the cops at the door.  I've thought of adding a second page (if I do indeed ever sell another cab) that releases me from liability if the thing catches fire or falls on someone. 

You really are sticking your neck out for a few bucks.  Don't let me discourage you, this is just stuff that's sat in my brain since I started selling off the excess cabs.

[hulkster]

Hmmm....well crap, this sucks.  What should I do here?  I dont want to have to deal with a lawyer or anything, and im not selling these things in mass quantities.  what do you suggest???

[lokki]

Hi,
Should not be too difficult to do.
90 Days free support and have an hourly rate for support beyond that. You may want to do 5-10 minute phone support free. (hopefully most things can be done this way). 
If they bring it to you have one rate. If you have to go their home have a higher rate.

Most repair shops do this kind of things.

If you don't expect your volume to be high something like this should work

[DrewKaree]

wow.....well that sucks.  do you put have them sign a disclaimer or something?  give them a 90 day warranty or something?  i mean, 5 years down the road, i dont want to be liable for this.  whats the best way to go about providing support?

Doug Hillman (I think it was Hillman) had a thread wherein he posted his "tips for building a cab for someone, even if they're a friend" and some steps that would help to alleviate exactly what Zakk is talking about.  Even if you decide not to take those steps, it's still a pretty good idea of other examples you might encounter, and a possible contract you can modify if you want to go Doug's route.

I'll see if I can scrounge up a link for ya, but at the very least, I have the contract, and I've got a modified version I plan to use.

I've modified it, so could you, to address "warranty and technical support" issues

[DrewKaree]

One Linky for da Hulkster - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,25134.0.html

Doug's proposal contract is in there too, and I think you'll find the thread very useful.

[hulkster]

wow drew, you da man!  thanks for that link.  one of the guys im going to be building one for is someone i work with, and he knows an attorney that has made up contracts for employees doing side businesses before at a minimal fee.  as of right now, im just selling this stuff to employees, and really not making a whole lot of profit on it.  reason being, im not confident enough in my skills just yet to charge them like crazy, plus it will help give me some credit by customer review if i decide to take this further.  if the contract doesnt cost too much (remember hes a friend that will help me out) then i may get one up after talking with him.  for legal reasons for the roms situation im mainly just going to be saying that im charging you for building the cabinet and im giving you the roms and emu's to run them.  for employees, i wont be making a whole lot, but for say....friends that i know by aquaintance, ill definitely jack up the price.  thanks again drew for the link, great info. 

[Zakk]

I'll have to skim that contract if I think of doing another!

One thing to add here: The more you ask for a cabinet, the less likely you will get pain-in-the-ass-problems.

[hulkster]

i know you arent trying to talk me out of it, but just giving me advice from your experience, and i assure you, this is definitely helping me think out all the problems that could arise. so please, dont think im not liking your advice!  the more tips you give me, the more cautious i am.  not everyone in the world is a nice guy ya know...so i need to be careful.

[Zakk]

Let me tell you, from my experience as a real estate agent: Nobody is nice when it comes to money. 

[DrewKaree]

I'll see if I can scrounge up my alterations and send them to you guys - mebbe I'll just post it here instead so others can use it.

As someone who is expected to know about how to download and install software for CELL PHONESfor my doorknob relatives, I know FIRST HAND what Zakk is talking about.  You simply HAVE to factor in probable laziness - I was expected to download the software, burn it to CD, and bring it over to their house to install on the phone (makes for nice holiday get-togethers when you tell them to get off their ass and do something before you consider helping them out!  )

[lucindrea]

well becideds a selection of some well known games you need to show people playing on a cab in a "real" home setting ( got a friend with a wet bar in the basment , drag a cab their and film it )  this not only shows people how much fun it will be , but it also shows their wives ( most of the time , cabs are guy toys , like wide screen tvs ) that it's a fitting pice of furnture , not to mention showing people playing on the cab shows it's a real "full sized" box .. just like an arcade.

Think of the age group your pitching to , use that as a basis on what games to showcase ... a collage student would be mortal combat , somone in their 30's use tron or dragons lair.

if i was buying a cab ( and not currently building my own ) i would wantr to know it's gona be sturdy , not a flimsy box ... hehe now i've got some commercial i've seen on tv about "quality hand crafted kitchen cabinets" i saw a few months back going around in my head.

[hulkster]

okay, this is kinda off topic but im still going to build for one of my customers and she will only be playing old school 80's games (pacman, donkey kong, dig dug, frogger, etc.)...and when i asked her for a list, she only gave me about 15 games, and when i started mentioning some other games, she had never heard of them.  so this is a casual arcade gamer, with some money to blow.  anyway, im going to be using the pacman/galaga reunion 4 way joysticks (at least i think so unless theres an easier way without having to buy a mounting plate for a good 4 way joystick).  but my question is, do i need to get 2 four way joysticks?  i mean, she said she wants to be able to play 2 players, but if the games she wants to play are only 1 player, and 2 player alternating, there obviously isnt a need.  she did however mention playing joust and that would require 2 4ways.  what do you suggest?  are the reunion joysticks my best bet?  remember, only old games, so no 8 way games. 

[stevejt]

"only old games, so no 8 ways"  Are you only going to install the 15 games, I mean, er..  show her where to get those 15??  If you install more than that, she might see them and want to play them.  She will no doubt want to show her new toy to all her friends.  If they saw the amount of games that were available, and got to play some, you might get orders for more machines.  The 4/8 way switchable, would  be worth the few dollars if it brought you ONE more order.  If you don't give, er.. show her the full rom set, MAKE SURE you print one, (or more) and throw them inside the cab.  If you think it's not worth it making more cabs, just add a few hundred to the price.  Then either it IS worth it, or you don't do it.   I have learned through having my own bussiness, that sometimes that few extra minutes, or few extra dollars gets you hundres more in the long run.

Steve

[Hoagie_one]

if you can build me a joust cocktail, cab only, for a good price, ill be your first customer

[DrewKaree]

Here ya go Hulkster, and anyone else.

It's Doug's contract, modified by me.

If anyone has any ideas to add/subtract to Doug's contract like I did, please bring it up.....you may trigger something not thought of previously

Make wit da good idears, Muggsey 

[hulkster]

thanks for the contract drew.  i think i may print it out and show it to the lawyer guy my friend knows.  it may give him an idea of what im looking at.  however, this contract....what good does that do unless it legal?  i mean, i cant just write up something without it being official right?

[stevejt]

If you both sign it, it's legal.  As long as it does not break any laws designed to protect comsumers,(of which I am not familiar).

Steve

[stevejt]

Couldn't read the contract , I don't have acrobat installed right now, (new win install).  I am guessing the contract says clearly that no roms are included.  Unless already in there, it might be good to have the contract say that the buyer UNDERSTANDS that all roms are copyrighted property, and understands that the seller does NOT endorse any type of copyright infringement.  (Did any of you know that motion picture industry sued the original manufactures of the first vcr's that RECORDED, in the 80's?  They said they were CONTRIBUTING  to the piracy of VHS tapes.  The vcr manufactures won the case, but lawyers are expensive, and even winners LOSE the legal fees.)

Steve

[hulkster]

well im not charging any thing for the roms, but im going to be giving them to him.  so im not making a profit off them.  hmmm...whats the way around this?

[DrewKaree]

This was also brought up before - I believe 1UP was in on that discussion, but I don't think he was worried about the roms, the conversation just turned to something that brought him in a ton - if you can' t find it before I log on again, I'll see if I can find it

I don't have a clue as to getting around roms you don't own, but getting around it anywhere else seems to involve "I'm going to send money for Disc burning materials, and to have them sent back....whatever's on the discs when I get them back is not my responsibility"

THAT seems VERY shaky to me  Someone else will be able to chime in on this, I'm sure

Also, installing the MAME emulator on the machine has 1UP (or someone in that thead) in a quandry, and what's been (kinda) worked out is that we can distribute MAME freely, but not profit off of it, so you'd have to set up an install disc (like your Windows OS discs) to self install exactly how you want it to (folders set up properly, exe in the right place, etc) which would actually be exactly how you would have set it up before you sent it out ANYWAY, and set up the rom stuff (since you can't distribute roms with MAME) in the same fashion - as self-install discs that automatically install to the roms, snaps, artwork etc folder - whatever you choose to include.

In re-reading the contract I modified from Doug, I didn't check his original to see if he also has in there that the machine will be delivered with MAME installed, but I realized today that my modified version has that on there - I've got to change that.


What you're essentially doing is selling the cabinet, and throwing in any software required (not charging).  What you could do is when you deliver and setup the thing, you could then sit there and walk them through installation of the discs.  While not sounding fun, I don't see a way around that, unless giving them the discs, walking away, and telling them later after they've FUBAR the installation that now you're gonna charge 'em to "fix it". 

Oh, and I'm pretty sure there's some stuff in any FE you use that would require you to read all the readme's and perhaps get some permissions and whatnot.


Like I said, I'll link that thread here later if you don' t find it and link it first.

All this stuff is why I'm only gonna do a Jakk's bartop for family.  Other folks - I'll take the time to figure this out when I sell one.

Family's different - they expect to be able to call you at 3 a.m. and for you to RUSH !!! RIGHT OVER!!! OMG IT'S BROKE I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT TYPE C:\FORMAT DID I BREAK IT YOU CAN FIX IT FOR FREE RIGHT? 

Those other folks will either think long and hard before calling you when they're looking at a MINIMUM $70 "tech service"  or at least they'll have screwed it up enough to make it worth your time 

[stevejt]

I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT TYPE C:\FORMAT DID I BREAK IT YOU CAN FIX IT FOR FREE RIGHT? 

ROFLMAO

I few years ago I used sell computers from mostly spare parts to friends for a few dollars.  People used to do just like above and expect me to take care of everything.  Like moving the computer, and plugging the speakers into the wrong jacks.  They swear they didn't touch anything, until I notice it's in a different room...  Or crash it during an install, and say it crashed by itself, until I find a CD in the drive, and they say "oh that, it's nothing".  Yeah, "nothing" with a virus...lol  "I just typed format, THATS NOT why it doesn't work."  I love it.

Steve

[hulkster]

drew!!!  your awesome!  great advice once again.  that OS and roms install disc thing is a good idea.  ive never made a cd with an auto install before.  like, pop in the cd, and it auto installs all your files and puts everything in the proper place.  how do i go about doing that?  i was told about knoppix at one point, is that what i need to have?  thats on like sourceforge or something.  ive seen the auto install before, but never actually made one myself.  i definitely need something that will auto install the mame software and fe and stuff. 

oh...and one more thing if you want to help some more  ....

I NEED A NAME FOR MY BUSINESS!!  i dont want to copy off people like using Retro (something) but it seems like all the good names are taken.  i liked 1UP's name because its recognizable as an arcade sound/word.  i was thinking maybe going with something like a certain word associated with arcade games.  thoughts?

[lucindrea]

all you need is a file on the root of the cd ( thats the \ dir heh ) named autorun.ini that has the name of the exe or bat or whatever on it .. your best bet is to grab a cd you got , browse to it , open the autorun.ini in notepad ...

making that exe or bat is another matter .. if you can .. err .. afford it ( dont know if they even have a demo/trial ) wise installer is the most professional thing out their .. if you can do a little bit of scripting autoit is the next best thing ..

all you need is to have it copy some folders over and extract zome zip files to the proper place ..

another option would be to use ghost or one of the other disk imaging softwares out thier and just image a partition that you have compleatly setup allready at home onto a bootable disk ( ghost will create a bootable cd / dvd ) then use that as a image .. it's acctully not a bad idea to do this anyway and keep the disk in the cab incase the end user destroys the HD ( or just time and heat do it ) .. sort of like a rescue disk most computer mfger's include with a new system.

if you want to restrict the user from doing somthing like hooking up the cab to their network and getting a TON of spyware , disable all networking services in the os.

[DrewKaree]

that OS and roms install disc thing is a good idea.  ive never made a cd with an auto install before.  like, pop in the cd, and it auto installs all your files and puts everything in the proper place.  how do i go about doing that?  i was told about knoppix at one point, is that what i need to have?  thats on like sourceforge or something.  ive seen the auto install before, but never actually made one myself.  i definitely need something that will auto install the mame software and fe and stuff. 

There's a few programs out there to help you do it.  I haven't needed to use 'em for anything, but I'll drop you a PM with some links and you can be my "beta tester" 

I NEED A NAME FOR MY BUSINESS!!  i dont want to copy off people like using Retro (something) but it seems like all the good names are taken.

what was wrong with Old Skool?  Mebbe Old Skool Tools?     Insert Coin Manufacturing?     Player 1 Productions?

I'm runnin' outta ideas.  I'll drop you a PM for the autorun CD stuff.


Here's that other thread about the "what to do about roms and emulators on a cab you're seling"

[Hoagie_one]

cant you  just make batch copy commands in a *.bat file?  Have the autorun point to the batch file and youcan do it all in Notepad

[ray_slup]

How about the name " Mario & Kong - Still Token"

[xar256]

Instead of messing around with file systems, batchfiles etc...Try out either Norton Ghost or Power Quest Drive Image <PQDI>.

[DrewKaree]

xar, you know, I use DriveImage ALL the time, and NEVER thought of doing this!  That's an AWESOME idea! 

I have a few questions, though.

What happens if you image to a drive connected to a mobo that has more onboard options than the original you imaged, such as a NIC, video, or sound? 

[xar256]

This idea I've only used for restoring pc's that have not had any hardware changes.

[SNAAKE]

Hey hulkster little off topic but how did you make the roundy cut on the stop part where you have the monitor ?
And where exactly did you buy those speaker cloth ?
You did mention "online vendor" on your site but didnt see any link.And 4 pics on your site are linked to your computer's folder.I.E "file:///F:/web%20page/DSC00224.JPG".Might wanna fix those

[hulkster]

the roundy cut at the top of monitor was made by super ghetto techniques.  all i did was to take a spare piece of lexan, and bend it across the square top part of the monitor section and then i traced the line it made after i got it how i liked it.  yeah so basically i just held it in place by myself while i drew the line.  gheeeeeeeetto, but thats how it was done.

as for the links...i just tried fixing them, but my web site is through bellsouth and its not working.  i dont know whats going on.  i change the source where the picture is located, but it still doesnt work.  i even went into the html to try and fix it and for some reason, its still not working.  so oh well.  i dont get it.   

[zvar]

Drew,
On that contract you have there, it says "See attached list for games" when talking about which controller one would want.  Would you happen to have that list anywhere and willing to share please?

Thanks You.
Steven

[DrewKaree]

I hadn't made it up yet, but I was gonna use Sir Poonga's beautiful work to create the lists - check his profile, I think he links to his www. 

The reason I haven't created the lists is that it'll be specific to the version of MAME used.

I know that doesn't help, but it should help with finding the info I was gonna use 

I'm trying to assemble a set of v0.55, and I've been working on that first, once I do, I'll try to remember to post the list here.  Drop me a PM to remind me to do this - that'll always stay in my "things to remember to check" pile 

[DrewKaree]

Here's my incomplete-thus-far list.  It's got example lists for 4-player, Trackball, 4-way, and Lightgun games. 

I'm hoping that some folks will complete example lists for Spinner, Rotary Joystick, and Top-Fire Joystick games.

The lists I made are for version 0.82.  If there are games on those lists that aren't in v0.55, please let me know as well.