Look at me, I, I mean WE are a real company!

[paigeoliver]

This might just be me, but does anyone else get really annoyed at all the low self esteem, striving for legitimacy that I see at some of the commercial sites related to our hobby.

Things like constantly using the term "we" for a part time one man operation. Sorry, I don't believe you have a full time staff selling downloadable cabinet plans. If Bob Roberts can do it by himself I simply can't believe you have a staff.

Fake "customer feedbacks"

The cabinet is fantastic! Was a breeze to put together. Great quality. My co-workers are drooling. Thanks for everything. -Bernie W. CA

Sure, crazy how you had all those phony sounding feedbacks from across the country the FIRST DAY your website went live.

Phony pictures of the product.
Not going to name names, but I have seen more than one website selling mame cabinets that did not have a single picture of an actual cabinet anywhere, just computer renderings.

Look at me, I, I mean WE are a real company.
I am really happy for you that you registered as an LLC, but I really don't need to hear about it on every page, and frankly it adds no legitimacy to your product, if anything it detracts.

Affiliate programs.
Wow, you mean I can sell YOUR (downloadable) products on MY website and keep a tiny percentage of the money. WOW, I'll bet the cash will just roll in. Where do I sign up?

Cabinet plans.
I mean COME ON. At this point the number of free plans out there is insane, and some of them are better than the commercial ones. Trying to make money selling cabinet plans just makes you look like a tool. People always end up feeling ripped off later when they find out about all the free plans. Not to mention the fact that MOST of the "commercial" plans produce cabinets looking nothing like an actual commercial arcade game, and something more like a heavy lusid cab.

I have also noticed that the truly respected names in this hobby engage in almost NONE of the above, except for letting the occasional "we" slip out.

[paigeoliver]

Just spotted this gem of a statement on a website I have never even heard of before that sells control panels.

At NAME WITHHELD, we have a culture based on the belief in going the extra mile for every customer.

That from a premade control panel site that doesn't have nor offer 4-way sticks, yet talks about nothing but donkey kong.

[patrickl]

I noticed the change to "we" with 1UP's conpany. I guess with a company even if you are a one man operation you still deal with several other companies (so there will indeed be more people involved even if not all from the named company)

I always say "we" when referring to my company too, but then there are two people working with "us"  

[danny_galaga]

i agree it sounds wanky to say we when describing your one man business. but i'm guilty of doing it too . i wouldnt if i was selling stuff on the internet but in the real world it looks more professional when you pluralise...

the best way would be to just use the company name while avoiding 'we'. instead of 'at BLAH inc. we specialise in blah...' you could say 'BLAH inc. specialise in blah...'

anyway, we must go now  

[RayB]

I understand your rant Paige, but you're smart enough to understand the use of "we". Come on. Should be obvious that if you own a business and you want potential customers to trust you, you need to portray an image that will gain that trust.

Advertising yourself as "hi, I'm one guy in a basement with a day job and I do this on the side" doesn't exactly give people reason to trust your services, even if you were the most honest guy in the world. Just look at how often we get newbies posting here asking if Bob Roberts should be trusted. It's exactly BECAUSE he portrays himself as "one guy", (and let's face it, his website looks pretty amateurish), that people not familiar with his "story" don't know if they should risk sending him their cash. ArcadeShop is just one guy too, but their website gives the impression they are more of a legit busines than Bob's site. It's all about impressions.

Everyone has to start somewhere and if you have any hope of building your activities into something that becomes your full-time job, and then becomes a job where you are successful enough to hire staff, then you should from day one think professionally and think like a business, rather than an individual. I know this is pushing it for some guy selling cab plans, but still. You get my point?

~Ray B.

[SirPeale]

I get the same reaction a lot.  I'd likely get 10x the business I do now if I had a better presence.

[Dartful Dodger]

The company I work for, is so small, we have no receptionist, so when you call, the operator line rings on all our phones and if I pick up the operator line and the person has a video editing type question I'll say, "Let me transfer you to our video department."

There is only one guy in our 'video' department.

Just like I am the 'programming' department.

[paigeoliver]

I get the same reaction a lot.  I'd likely get 10x the business I do now if I had a better presence.

Peale, I feel your reputation is solid and that you could gradually grow to be very big if you wanted to. Your problem is just selection. I might need something you have, but I might very well order from a different vendor in order to get more things from them that you don't have. If you continue to expand your selection your business will expand.

If you REALLY want your business to expand then spend several thousand at coinopexpress on joysticks and buttons and watch the orders roll in. I suggest The cheap red balltops, buttons, and jamma harnesses.

[SirPeale]

Peale, I feel your reputation is solid and that you could gradually grow to be very big if you wanted to. Your problem is just selection. I might need something you have, but I might very well order from a different vendor in order to get more things from them that you don't have. If you continue to expand your selection your business will expand.

Well, thanks for your vote of confidence!

If you REALLY want your business to expand then spend several thousand at coinopexpress on joysticks and buttons and watch the orders roll in. I suggest The cheap red balltops, buttons, and jamma harnesses.

Problem is getting that start up capital (the several thousand) to do just that.  And I wouldn't do the cheap buttons - they suck *big time.*  iL stuff for sure.

[paigeoliver]

Well, currently there is no US vendor with a decent price on japanese candy buttons. The cheapest one wants $3.xx each for them.

There are a lot of people selling the iL buttons, but very few people selling the asian style buttons. Yes they are cheap, but I know I would order six of them to fill the empty slots in my cab.

[RetroJames]

I get the same reaction a lot.  I'd likely get 10x the business I do now if I had a better presence.

Edit: We get the same reaction a lot.  We would  likely get 10x the business We do now if We had a better presence.

Cripes! Peale is going IPO!

[GGKoul]

The company I work for, is so small, we have no receptionist, so when you call, the operator line rings on all our phones and if I pick up the operator line and the person has a video editing type question I'll say, "Let me transfer you to our video department."

There is only one guy in our 'video' department.

Just like I am the 'programming' department.

The company I'm doing contract work for only has 3 full time employees, with me, that makes 4.  When we answer the phone, we do the same thing.  I'm the Professional Services department.  

[paigeoliver]

The three man company I used to work for consisted of me (the employee), my buddy (who is 25), and his uncle (34).

My buddy always talked in we's and such, making things sound much bigger than they were. While the real brains behind the operation (Uncle Mike) made no such pretentions, and he was the one getting us all the work.

[danny_galaga]

I get the same reaction a lot.  I'd likely get 10x the business I do now if I had a better presence.

correction:

WE get the same reaction a lot.  WE'D likely get 10x the business WE do now if WE had a better presence

 

[1UP]

I noticed the change to "we" with 1UP's conpany. I guess with a company even if you are a one man operation you still deal with several other companies (so there will indeed be more people involved even if not all from the named company)

I always say "we" when referring to my company too, but then there are two people working with "us"  

Well, I guess my wife and I count as "we".    In a community property state, when you file a corp, I believe the wife automatically owns half...  Then there are all the vendors (and their vendors etc) that I deal with, so its not like I'm doing everything myself.  Someone else is making the cabs and all the parts, then I assemble them.  Also, a corporation is in itself a separate legal entity, almost like its own person.  If you want out, you have to "kill" it by having it legally dissolved.  So I guess "we" could be me and the corporation.

My question lately has been, why go legit at all?  I'm here busily working away to redesign the graphics on my cabs to be more generic but still "arcade authentic", so I don't get sued into oblivion by Namco...then I look at all the companies on the "Holiday Giveaway" page, and half of them are either selling products with copyrighted characters printed on them, or using copyrighted characters on their sites.  Why should I even bother playing by the rules?  

[DrewKaree]

My question lately has been, why go legit at all?  I'm here busily working away to redesign the graphics on my cabs to be more generic but still "arcade authentic", so I don't get sued into oblivion by Namco...then I look at all the companies on the "Holiday Giveaway" page, and half of them are either selling products with copyrighted characters printed on them, or using copyrighted characters on their sites.  Why should I even bother playing by the rules?  

Because deep down in your heart you want to succeed based on your talents and want to do so in a fashion that merits respect - all these things reflect the character in yourself, and you want whatever would bear your name to be something you can point to and be proud of, not something that may cause you trouble and heartache down the line....it's why it makes you mad - seeing others take the easy way out and having seemingly great success with no repercussions.

From everything I've seen of your cab, and some of the things I've read from you, I believe you will succeed.  I don't know if that success will be to the level you want but I think you have demonstrated nothing but quality work and wish you well

[1UP]

Because deep down in your heart you want to succeed based on your talents and want to do so in a fashion that merits respect....

Well, yes, that's certainly my hope.  The thing that gets me is that the more I try to go legit, the more problems I run into.  I recently made the huge mistake of trying to get permission to use Mame on my cabs (after all, it states that you need permission in the docs), and it turned into an all-out scorched earth offensive against me for about 2 days, mostly because people weren't reading my posts all the way through before throwing accusations about being some money-grubbing suit who is just trying to make a quick buck off Mame.

Why it's forbidden to put Mame on a cabinet with legal StarRoms, but it's perfectly fine to put the roms on the HD and give the customer the exact link to download Mame to the machine, is beyond me.  Yet, there is some company selling cabs thru Neiman Marcus that seems to be doing the exact same thing that I was expressly told not to by the devs.  Ya can't win!  

[paigeoliver]

Put it on there anyway. What are they going to do?

Anyway, from what I have experienced you always seem to get Mame and the roms with the machines, from pretty much everyone. Even if it says on the website that you don't get them.

[Gunstar Hero]

I say play it safe and have people find their own ROMS.  

I'd hate to have Midway, SEGA or Namco knocking on my door with a cease and desist order.  

Maybe include a couple arcade classics collections and a few tips on how to fill in the library in the manual.  

[1UP]

I say play it safe and have people find their own ROMS.  

I'd hate to have Midway, SEGA or Namco knocking on my door with a cease and desist order.  

Maybe include a couple arcade classics collections and a few tips on how to fill in the library in the manual.  

Roms aren't the problem--StarRoms has that covered.  The Mame devs just don't want anyone selling cabs with Mame.  Period.

[paigeoliver]

I repeat, put it on there anyway, what are they going to do about it? The Mame license isn't a law, and I doubt Nicola Salmoria is going to move to America and sue you.

Mame is open source, but it is neither owned by a person or company, so who can possibly defend the "license". Without possession it is impossible to prosecute things like license violations. So Nicola still might not have a leg to stand on even if he did move to the US and tried to sue you.

[Gunstar Hero]

I think that since there would be no business anyways without the MAME devs work that their wishes should be honored and MAME should not be pre-installed.

I would say there is NOTHING wrong with a little tutorial included on how to DL and set up your own version of MAME tho.

But paige is right, legally MAME is pretty defenseless...

Like drew said, you want to make it on your own work or the work of others?

[1UP]

From the Mame boards, it sounds pretty much like Hanaho is doing just that.  The devs never really gave Hanaho permission, they just refrained from taking any action.

My concern was never with being sued, I doubt anyone would spend tens of thousands to sue over software that doesn't bring any income.  The only thing holding me back from doing it is the image of legitimacy.  I wouldn't sell cabinets based off someone else's plans for the same reason--it's just a crappy thing to do.

But I do wonder how you can sell cabs for thousands of dollars, then tell the customer they have to download and install software before they can even use it.

I guess it's about like selling consoles though, and with those you have to actually buy the games to make the hardware useful (unless you know where to get game images...)

I do kind of find it hypocritical that the people who have a problem with Mame being sold illegally (even with LEGAL ROMS), are the same people who are stealing ROMS left and right.  Lets face it, the primary reason there is so much animosity toward anyone who wants to "abuse" Mame is because everyone is afraid of losing their "right" to play free games when a copyright holder finally shuts them down.  

Not that I would like to see that happen.  I like having my free games too...  

[paigeoliver]

You know you can have your cake and eat it too.

Install mame and your frontend and configure it like a little monster.

But include no roms.

Put your legally purchased roms on a self booting DOS cd that runs a bat file that copies them onto the computer, and that is the setup CD.

Sounds stupid doesn't it.

You can always tell a rule is stupid when it requires you to do things that make no sense and are extra work in order to stay within that rule, and the end result is the EXACT same result you would have if you would have followed logic and ignored the rule.

I don't follow stupid rules.

[1UP]

You can always tell a rule is stupid when it requires you to do things that make no sense and are extra work in order to stay within that rule, and the end result is the EXACT same result you would have if you would have followed logic and ignored the rule.

I don't follow stupid rules.

You're absolutely right, it makes no sense.  But the problem is not that they have a problem distributing Mame with properly licensed roms.  Their problem is with including Mame as part of a commercial product.  I interpreted that part of the license as meaning "a commercial software package", but apparently it applies to pre-installing it on the hard drive of any computer you intend to sell.

Here's the stupid part: StarRoms will let you pre-install copyrighted roms in the customer's name, and Atari apparently has no problem with this, or they would not continue to license out their roms to Star.  But Mame, a free software that carries no patents and probably no actual copyright registration, can not be distributed in any way that even gives the impression that it is being sold.  You can't even provide it separately on a CD, unless you are willing to provide the same CD free of charge to anyone who asks for it, whether they buy your products or not.

I just don't see why it can't be considered a free service for the convenience of the customer, to have Mame sitting on the drive when they get it.  But that's how Mamedevs want it, so I don't want to soil my name by rocking the boat.

[SirPeale]

So do just that: have a CD freely available that does one thing: installs Mame to a set directory on the drive.  

Of course the PC will be already set up and configured around this specific setup.

The actual chances of anyone requesting a CD are quite slim, and if they do, so what?  You burn them a .10c CD and you're done.  Limit one per address.

[1UP]

You know, I've actually thought of doing that.  If you just have them download it, how else do they get it on the machine?  It would be a lot more cost effective than walking the customer thru home networking their cabinet.

[maraxle]

So do just that: have a CD freely available that does one thing: installs Mame to a set directory on the drive.  

Of course the PC will be already set up and configured around this specific setup.

The actual chances of anyone requesting a CD are quite slim, and if they do, so what?  You burn them a .10c CD and you're done.  Limit one per address.

Plus charge the same shipping fee whether they buy the cabinet or not...

[paigeoliver]

Probably actually good to keep the ROMS themselves on a separate disc. After all the people did pay extra for them, and shouldn't lose them in a crash.

System should probably come with 3 discs anyway.

System restore, to restore the operating system, back to YOUR config.

Frontend and rom installation. To add the frontend and roms. Make it a separate disc because the customer might someday replace the system you put in it.

The MAME disc. Adds the mame.exe file, which is the third disc. You can use this to your advantage in that you won't have to redo your whole setup with each new mame release, just redo the MAME disc you are including.

[patrickl]

I say play it safe and have people find their own ROMS.  

I'd hate to have Midway, SEGA or Namco knocking on my door with a cease and desist order.  

Maybe include a couple arcade classics collections and a few tips on how to fill in the library in the manual.  

Roms aren't the problem--StarRoms has that covered.  The Mame devs just don't want anyone selling cabs with Mame.  Period.

Perhaps I'm missing something r maybe my license is old, but where in the MAME license does it mention that you cannot put MAME on a cab that you sell? It says you cannot sell MAME and that you cannot reuse the source code in a commercial product. I saw no mention of charging for the media or about pre-installed or not.

MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written authorization of the authors

The way I see it, you can distribute MAME on a CD or DVD right? Why not on a cab? You're just not allowed to charge money for MAME, but charging a nominal fee for the media on which MAME is distributed is pretty standard practice. In this case  the media just happens to be a cab and not a DVD. You are not charging money for MAME itself and you are not reusing the source code.

[fredster]

How's looking anyway?  Does anybody know of anybody that has gotten busted for doing this?

The only way somebody will spank you with this is if you go big time. One or two machines won't matter. What would matter is if somebody made and sold or put into commercial operation a lot of these machines.

Namco might, IT might if somebody stole GT 2004 like that.  But most of the other companies are dead.

If Nintendo got upset over the emulators they'd hammer, but not like file sharing.  They don't have the money to go after a group like that.

[saint]

I think one of the big picture things missing is simple respect for the devs' wishes. Their reasons for their position isn't the issue really. There isn't a legal issue at play here regarding the MAME software. ROMs of course are self-obvious. But, if the MAME devs don't wish their software distributed, I think out of respect for what they do one should abide by it. If not out of simple respect, then bear in mind that they could simply decide to pull the project.

1UP. I don't think it's that big of a deal to point out to customers where to get MAME. You can pre-install other software for them, either freeware/shareware or commercially purchased software. That gives them something to test and play with. Loading up additional software they can do as they choose. It's possible to play a bunch of fun stuff that's arcade oriented without delving into emulation. The software forum post on games worth playing would be where I'd look as to what to load up on the cabinet. I really think MAME will be 100% a non issue. Those who know MAME will get it if they want it. Those who don't won't shun the cabinet just because it doesn't come preloaded with MAME.

When do I get my review unit <grin>?

Good luck and cheers!

--- saint

[1UP]

Perhaps I'm missing something r maybe my license is old, but where in the MAME license does it mention that you cannot put MAME on a cab that you sell? It says you cannot sell MAME and that you cannot reuse the source code in a commercial product. I saw no mention of charging for the media or about pre-installed or not.

That's the way I read it, but I guess selling a cabinet with Mame on it is equivalent to selling Mame.  According to at least one dev.

The way I see it, you can distribute MAME on a CD or DVD right? You're just not allowed to charge money for MAME, but charging a nominal fee for the media on which MAME is distributed is pretty standard practice. In this case  the media just happens to be a cab and not a DVD.

I think this is the key.  Like paige said above, I think it's only wise to put everything on separate discs for customer backup purposes.  If the only charge for the service is the cost of the media, and if I will provide the CD without a cabinet purchase, I don't see how they could possibly argue that I was selling Mame.

BUT, no matter how I argue, no matter how I rephrase, I can not get the devs to tell me that it is OK to put Mame on the HD.  Try it yourself, you won't get very far before the hate begins.

[shmokes]

I liked the idea of the flat shipping charge for everything you ship.  $300 to ship a full-size cabinet.  $300 to ship a free CD-R with MAME on it.  

Of course you might run into problems if you plan to sell anything else on your site, such as replacement parts or upgrades.  

It seems to me that the best thing to do is like Paige said.  Have an installation disc.  Most products that you buy have installation discs, so it won't seem strange to the customer.  You can pre-install everything else, but the installation disc has to be run before it will work.  Then make the disc available to anybody who wants it.  Advertise that anybody can order the disc in the "support" section of your site.  Non-customers are NEVER going to track down your site to have a disc sent out that can be downloaded in no time at all from dozens of sources on the internet.  Even if someone actually WANTED a disc rather than downloading it, they are unlikely to find your site.

[1UP]

I think one of the big picture things missing is simple respect for the devs' wishes.

Absolutely, and that's why I've been so tortured by this.  I really don't want to just "go ahead and do it" like I've been told so many times.  I want to keep a good public image, and getting a black eye in the Mame community won't help my image at all.  My purpose is to try to find a way that makes my customers happy, while keeping the developers happy (or at least not pissed at me) as well.

1UP. I don't think it's that big of a deal to point out to customers where to get MAME. You can pre-install other software for them, either freeware/shareware or commercially purchased software. That gives them something to test and play with.

The problem comes when I start to market outside of the BYOAC/Mame community.  Most of my customers are not going to come from these boards, and many will not be tech-savvy enough to set up home networking on their cabs.  The vast majority will want something that is plug and play.  The best way for me to do this is to have a system with an FE that loads up automatically, and that runs everything without having to exit out to Windows.  This pretty much means that it will be running emulators, although it may be possible to run arcade classics compilations from the FE.  I have considered this option.  I could even ship with an XBox and an arcade classics CD so there is no OS at all.

When do I get my review unit <grin>?

Sometime after I get mine.  

BTW, the cabinets are looking great!  I think people are going to be surprised by the level of quality in the cabs.  I am finishing the graphics for the exterior this week, and the look is going to be way above what is currently on the market.  There are just a few technical and legal issues to sort out before "we" begin selling.

[patrickl]

I think one of the big picture things missing is simple respect for the devs' wishes.

Then maybe they should be clear on these wishes in the license. Normally if you follow the license you comply with the wishes.

[1UP]

Just to get back on topic, I NEVER buy the customer testimonials.  They always sound fake, and they'll never give you the downside of a product.  If your product is good, and you are able to describe it well enough, and have some actual photos, that's all I need.  Forums are the only place to go for REAL testimonials.  And they work, too!  If it wasn't for this board, I'd have never heard of Oscar or Ultimarc.

Affiliate programs are generally wank too.  I'd prefer a banner exchange.  I'm embarrassed to say I was an affiliate for a few months way back when, and all I ever got out of it was $5.  It wasn't even worth the time to cut and paste the links into the web store.  I got way more requests for my own plans than I ever got clickthroughs to their site, and in the end I just looked like a major tool.  

I won't say who I was an affiliate for, but let's just say that they are the main site for buying plans to make MAME cabinets for your game ROOM...  

[patrickl]

Just to get back on topic ....

I won't say who I was an affiliate for

Hey, the topic was that you are now plural! So what's with the "I" stuff  

[rchadd]

i think the use of the "royal " we for a company (rather than a individual) to refer to itself is correct.

one is most amused!

[Matt, GoC]

Um, 1Up, since you are concerned with MAME Dev's wishes, can't you find an alternate emulator that will play classic games that you can get from starroms (or whatever)?  I'm sure MAME isn't the only emu out there that plays old games.