What's so special about xbox?

[Trimoor]

What makes the xbox such a great emulation platform?  Isn't it just an x86 PC with a custom bios and os?

That being said, I think someone should develop a system that is dedecated to emulation.  It would be like a PC in most aspects, but would also contain some specialized hardware to facilitate emultaion.

Throw in a dedecated SPC700 for perfect NSES sound, video chips from the classic consoles, and the optimal specs foe MAME.

Pretty much all of these chips would fit on one of those programmable CPU chips--the kind someone used to put pac-man on a single chip.

Use a custom bios that allows for instant bootup, and a custom os (linux based, of course) written in C language or lower.

Add a built in keyboard encoder that has dedecated pins for every key (a must have for cabinet users), and put sockets for every major console controller on the case.

Stuff a super fast CPU in it, and excessive amount of ram and you're good to go.


Does any of this seem practical?  I know many motherboards allow for custom bioses, but you need to know the assembly commands for the specific board.

Anyone brave enough to take up such a project?  I'm sure a huge profit could be made off something like this.  (don't forget to pay me royalties  )

[pointdablame]

I don't see what this has to do with xbox, lol

Xbox just happens to run a lot of emus, and runs most games pretty well compared to some consoles.  PS2 isn't AS good at it from what I hear, and unfortunately, Dreamcast is not as prominient as it was..... xbox is current and easy to mod.

As for your dedicated computer for the games, they have that.... its called a game console.  I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but if that's what you really want, just get a SNES... they have the original sound chip in it.  I know what you mean, but overall, if you have a high-end PC, emulation is pretty damn good.

You can hack basically any controls to a PC, and can play almost any game on a high-end PC.  I just don't see the point of your idea.... either emulate a system, or buy the real thing.

Or you could always make something like the Boxx that integrated multiple consoles into a PC tower.... its basically what you want, without having to write new bioses and go through all that trouble.

[Trimoor]

Yeah, the above was really more of a rant than anything.

But why is xbox so good at emultation?
Not many high end PCs can run snes and n64 games perfectly.

[pointdablame]

Yeah, the above was really more of a rant than anything.

But why is xbox so good at emultation?
Not many high end PCs can run snes and n64 games perfectly.

What do you mean by perfectly?  I have played a ton of SNES an N64 games on varying computers, and didnt have any trouble at all on even fairly new systems.  My Centrino laptop that runs at around 600mhz when set to minimum power consumption runs a ton of games fine, so I don't see where you are having problems with newer systems.  I know my Shuttle has no problems.

I guess Xbox is "better" at emulation than other systems because its either a) more powerful or b) more specific.

What I mean is, the Xbox is the fastest console out there mhz wise.  As you said, its basically a PC.... 733mhz, faster than PS2, Gamecube, Dreamcast, etc.

Its also more specific because it ISN'T an actual PC.  It runs on a very stipped down OS, therefore there is very little bloat.  I guess thats why it plays more games at better speeds than comparable PCs... although I'm sure a newer 2-3ghz system will have no trouble wiping the floor with it.

[nipsmg]

The reason why it's so great is:

It's a console!

I put all my console games on my cabinet, and some of them (espeically the N64 games) are a pain in the ass to play, since I don't have analog controls.  And they just don't feel the same playing them on arcade controls anyways.  Now, I use my cabinet only for arcade games, and my XBOX for EVERYTHING else.

What's so great about the xbox, is you can put every Atari, Coleco, Intellivision, NES, SMS, Genesis, SNES, N64, C64, etc etc etc game on it, and you now have an all in one portable gaming platform, that plays all your favorite classics, and spanking new games as well!

It's really convenient, and console games feel more comfortable playing on a console controller, sitting in front of a TV.  At least for me.

--NipsMG

[Trimoor]

Uh, yeah, what I meant was, what is it that makes the xbox adept at emulation.

Is it just because it uses definate hardware and software sonfigurations?
If so, then why isn't the ps2 or gamecube good at emulation?

I understand the argument of dedecated consoles vs. emulators.

I might even consider getting an xbox if it weren't made by micro$oft.

[abrannan]

Uh, yeah, what I meant was, what is it that makes the xbox adept at emulation.

Okay, I'll take a stab at this, even though I don't necessarily think the Xbox is the end-all be-all of emulation.

Is it just because it uses definate hardware and software sonfigurations?
If so, then why isn't the ps2 or gamecube good at emulation?

It's not just because it uses definite HW/SW.  It's because it uses the old familiar x86 architecture with defined HW/SW configs.  Not many people know the ins and outs of the PS2 hardware to write good ML routines for emulation.  Not many people have access to teh hardware necessary to burn Gamecube compatible discs.  The PS2 needs to have extra hardware purchased to have a Hard drive.  With the Xbox you get:

A well-defined familiar x86 architecture
A reasonably fast processor on a system with defined HW
A Built in HDD, and built in Networking
A USB interface
and included console style controllers

All for $150 (plus modding costs)

It's really the price point that's attractive.  Yeah, you could build a comparable PC that has TV out for $150, but with the Xbox, it's all there already.  Just throw in a Mod Chip and you're all set.  




It's the price point that attracts me to the Dreamcast.  For less than $20, you get a system that can handle a reasonable number of classics, plus has a decent selection of more modern arcade games available to play.  It's a lot more portable than a PC or Xbox, too.

[Bgnome]

Uh, yeah, what I meant was, what is it that makes the xbox adept at emulation.

Okay, I'll take a stab at this, even though I don't necessarily think the Xbox is the end-all be-all of emulation.

Is it just because it uses definate hardware and software sonfigurations?
If so, then why isn't the ps2 or gamecube good at emulation?

It's not just because it uses definite HW/SW.  It's because it uses the old familiar x86 architecture with defined HW/SW configs.  Not many people know the ins and outs of the PS2 hardware to write good ML routines for emulation.  Not many people have access to teh hardware necessary to burn Gamecube compatible discs.  The PS2 needs to have extra hardware purchased to have a Hard drive.  With the Xbox you get:

A well-defined familiar x86 architecture
A reasonably fast processor on a system with defined HW
A Built in HDD, and built in Networking
A USB interface
and included console style controllers

All for $150 (plus modding costs)

It's really the price point that's attractive.  Yeah, you could build a comparable PC that has TV out for $150, but with the Xbox, it's all there already.  Just throw in a Mod Chip and you're all set.  




It's the price point that attracts me to the Dreamcast.  For less than $20, you get a system that can handle a reasonable number of classics, plus has a decent selection of more modern arcade games available to play.  It's a lot more portable than a PC or Xbox, too.

i knew some of the authors in the ps2 scene and i can tell you that it is A LOT easier to code/port for the xbox than the ps2, (especially if you are one of those "1337" folks who just recompile open source emus with an illegal copy M$ Xbox devkit).  that coupled with the fact that the GC homebrew scene has just barely gotten off the ground are some of the reasons why there is so much out there for the xbox relative to the other consoles.

[Trimoor]

We just need someone who is willing to make a system similar to xbox, except open source.  The hackers would love something like that.

Why does m$ even bother with stupid things like lockout chips that prevent home brew games?  It seems like they are just being jerks.

and included console style controllers

They should be paying me to use that controller.  They put the buttons right behind the joystick!  And it's far too heavy.  The designer should be shot. (or worse, forced to use m$ programs.  Oh wait, everyone is.)

[abrannan]

We just need someone who is willing to make a system similar to xbox, except open source.  The hackers would love something like that.

Yes, because open source is the answer to everything!  Especially something that cannot be commoditized like hardware!  Trimoor, tone down the anti-Microsoft rhetoric, and go back and re-read Cathedral and the Bazaar again.  (you *have* read it, right?)  Again, I direct your attention to the Dreamcast, which has a rich and thriving open development community, as the console does not need any sort of modification to play homebrew CDRs.

Why does m$ even bother with stupid things like lockout chips that prevent home brew games?  It seems like they are just being jerks.

They (and all the other console manufacturers that are stil around) do it because it prevents a situation like was had with the Atari, where any schmuck with a chip burner could produce and sell Atari games.  The market was flooded with crap games, and the entire home videogame industry nearly collapsed as a result.  It wasn't until Nintendo (and their draconian licensing schemes) came along that the home consoles had a chance of survival.  Take the time to learn the lessons of history, a lot of things exist for a reason other than to tick you off.

and included console style controllers

They should be paying me to use that controller.  They put the buttons right behind the joystick!  And it's far too heavy.  The designer should be shot. (or worse, forced to use m$ programs.  Oh wait, everyone is.)

*sniff* I weep for you, I really do.  Especially since nobody's ever used that joke before, and there aren't any third party manufacturers who make controllers, nor are there adapters that can convert a PS2 controller to be used on an Xbox.  

[Puds]

my initial response was gonna be something like "Well imagine running nothing on your computer but a game, not even running windows, just the game: seems like it would run pretty smooth."  But you guys got way too "1337" for me

[Trimoor]

I'll show you all!

When I become rediculously rich through yet unkown means, I will buy the current top-of-the-line system and it's major games, and release the source to the public!

Sure, I probably won't make any money off it, but I will become immensely famous amongst the gaming community.

Sorry, but I just can't stop bitching about micro$oft.  I hate that everyone is being forced to use such crappy software, and there's nothing we can do about it.  None of the good software is ever released on linux.  All the developers write for windoze because everyone uses windoze...it's an endless cycle.

*sigh* I hate micro$oft, and there's nothing I can do about it.

I will have to read Cathedral and the Bazaar.  Oddly, I have never heard of it.

[abrannan]

I will have to read Cathedral and the Bazaar.  Oddly, I have never heard of it.

Yeah, that much was pretty clear.  And you call yourself an open source nut!  

BTW, there is no "source" for hardware.  It's a schematic, which is easily copied by simply looking at the circuit board.  Yes, there's BIOS and firmware, but that can be easily lifted from the chips themselves.  So, there is no way to "open source" hardware.  What could be done is to create an open standard for a gaming platform, and allow any manufacturer to produce it.  But the end result of that would only be that people could create their own version of a platform, not that they'd become instantly free, or even cheap for that matter.  Just look at the 4 billion-in-one NES/SNES clones, if you want an example of what that world would look like.  

[Stingray]

What's so great about the xbox, is you can put every Atari, Coleco, Intellivision, NES, SMS, Genesis, SNES, N64, C64, etc etc etc game on it, and you now have an all in one portable gaming platform, that plays all your favorite classics, and spanking new games as well!

I guess I'm just old fashioned. I have a real Atari 2600, 7800, Jaguar, NES, SNES,N64, Genesis, Colecovision, Intellivision, and a heap of others. I find it more fun playing those games on the real systems. Honestly I find arcade games more fun on the real systems too, but since owning all of those full sized arcade machines is completely impractical for me, I built a MAME cab. I love emulation for arcade machines, but for everything else I stick with the real hardware.

-S

[Trimoor]

Yeah, the real thing is great, but I hate having to constantly swap carts.  And I love the save state function of emus.  It adds a save to all those games that should have had a save. (mario 1, 2, and 3)

Aside from those two points, the consoles are definately better.  (Of course, the games are a lot easier to 'aquire' for the emus. *cough*)

[SOAPboy]

I'll show you all!

When I become rediculously rich through yet unkown means, I will buy the current top-of-the-line system and it's major games, and release the source to the public!

Sure, I probably won't make any money off it, but I will become immensely famous amongst the gaming community.

Sorry, but I just can't stop bitching about micro$oft.  I hate that everyone is being forced to use such crappy software, and there's nothing we can do about it.  None of the good software is ever released on linux.  All the developers write for windoze because everyone uses windoze...it's an endless cycle.

*sigh* I hate micro$oft, and there's nothing I can do about it.

I will have to read Cathedral and the Bazaar.  Oddly, I have never heard of it.

sorry but to this date (even after college for network admin) ive never had ANY issues with microsoft programs, or o/s..

in fact, all the "haters" and linux fanboys tell me its not stable.. oddly enough my uptime atm is 1 weeks 3 days 9 hours 17 minutes 13 seconds, oddly enough that seems pretty damn stable to me..

i dunno man.. You people bash MS tho ive had nothing but success with everything they have put out..

[Trimoor]

Thats what they want you to think.  They know you like them, so they don't crash on you.

It crashes on me all the time.  Let me guess, you don't install/remove programs very often do you?  That is the biggest killer in windoze.  It will NEVER remove all of the registry settings for a particular progarm.

It just gets left in there until it starts causing problems with everything else.  Then it just ignores it, and goes about happily crashing whenevr you do something.

Granted, part of the problem is with brain-dead programmers who insist on using the registry in the first place, but if it is open source, the public will yell at them until they start doing it right.

With Linux, most programs respect the sanctity of global registration, and won't go hacking away at it.  Plus, these programs don't even have the capability to crash the system.  The Linux user system is so good, it prevents programs f***ing with the system files.

Users of Linux swear by it, most windoze users hate it and wish the stupid programmers would start programming for Linux, and the windoze users who do nothing but instant message and are content with playing around with paint are too stupid to know the difference between windoze and Linux.  (like you )
----------------------------------------

It seems to me that we just need someone to make "Emuos

[SOAPboy]

Thats what they want you to think.  They know you like them, so they don't crash on you.

It crashes on me all the time.  Let me guess, you don't install/remove programs very often do you?  That is the biggest killer in windoze.  It will NEVER remove all of the registry settings for a particular progarm.

It just gets left in there until it starts causing problems with everything else.  Then it just ignores it, and goes about happily crashing whenevr you do something.

Granted, part of the problem is with brain-dead programmers who insist on using the registry in the first place, but if it is open source, the public will yell at them until they start doing it right.

With Linux, most programs respect the sanctity of global registration, and won't go hacking away at it.  Plus, these programs don't even have the capability to crash the system.  The Linux user system is so good, it prevents programs f***ing with the system files.

Users of Linux swear by it, most windoze users hate it and wish the stupid programmers would start programming for Linux, and the windoze users who do nothing but instant message and are content with playing around with paint are too stupid to know the difference between windoze and Linux.  (like you )
----------------------------------------

It seems to me that we just need someone to make "Emuos

[abrannan]

Is there such a thing as a gamind OS?

Patent pending on Emuos

[Trimoor]

SOAPboy, my post was mainly a joke, no offense intended.
My micro$oft hate is justified however.  It does nothing but crash on me, and m$ refuses to give any free tech support.

abrannan, I would really like to make this, but I have very little experience in coding .  Maybe someday...

[SOAPboy]

SOAPboy, my post was mainly a joke, no offense intended.
My micro$oft hate is justified however.  It does nothing but crash on me, and m$ refuses to give any free tech support.

abrannan, I would really like to make this, but I have very little experience in coding .  Maybe someday...

kinda sucks your having bad experiances with it.. and if you were local, id give you the tech support

[Trimoor]

Thanks, but I doubt you (or anyone) could help.

For example: Whenever I restart my computer, it refuses to turn off the monitors without my intervention.  It consistently ignores my power settings and resets them all every time I boot.  This is more annoying than anything, but if I forget to fix it, it could burn out a couple hundred dollars worth of monitors.

How about programs that will NEVER fully uninstall themselves?
Autocad for example.  It loads a bunch of crap into the registry, some program files folder I didn't tell it to make, and puts two crappy utilities into the control panel--none of which are removed when I uninstall.

My soulution?  Destroy micro$oft.  Completely.  Erase all of its sources and bianaries ever in existance.  Only then will the world be free.

[SOAPboy]

Thanks, but I doubt you (or anyone) could help.

For example: Whenever I restart my computer, it refuses to turn off the monitors without my intervention.  It consistently ignores my power settings and resets them all every time I boot.  This is more annoying than anything, but if I forget to fix it, it could burn out a couple hundred dollars worth of monitors.

How about programs that will NEVER fully uninstall themselves?
Autocad for example.  It loads a bunch of crap into the registry, some program files folder I didn't tell it to make, and puts two crappy utilities into the control panel--none of which are removed when I uninstall.

My soulution?  Destroy micro$oft.  Completely.  Erase all of its sources and bianaries ever in existance.  Only then will the world be free.

then the world would be without TONS of things..

anyways.. registry stuff.. you get a regcleaner.. or do it manually.. and if you "hardcore" into linux, that little bit of work to clean a registry is nothing compaired to some of the crap you have to do to get linux running properly for gaming..

[kujina]

Thanks, but I doubt you (or anyone) could help.

For example: Whenever I restart my computer, it refuses to turn off the monitors without my intervention.  It consistently ignores my power settings and resets them all every time I boot.  This is more annoying than anything, but if I forget to fix it, it could burn out a couple hundred dollars worth of monitors.

How about programs that will NEVER fully uninstall themselves?
Autocad for example.  It loads a bunch of crap into the registry, some program files folder I didn't tell it to make, and puts two crappy utilities into the control panel--none of which are removed when I uninstall.

My soulution?  Destroy micro$oft.  Completely.  Erase all of its sources and bianaries ever in existance.  Only then will the world be free.

Throw your pentium 60 in the bin and try a newer version of windows than windows 95 - Case Closed.

[Trimoor]

Throw your pentium 60 in the bin and try a newer version of windows than windows 95 - Case Closed.

Uh, I use an Athlon XP 2500+ and winxp.

I would clean out the registry, but it is sooooooo huge, and has too many dependencies.

[pointdablame]

registry cleaners are not that difficult to use.  and if autocad never uninstalls itself, that is the uninstallers fault as much as Windows.... so do you want to destroy AutoCAD as well?

Windows is far from perfect, but this destroy M$ bullsh** is so stupid.  It's my experience that people who's only response to windows is destroy it, don't really understand how to use it.  

My advice:  Read up on cleaning up windows, get rid of unnecessary services, use a reg cleaner.  It's really not that difficult to set up windows so that it can be as stable as it can be.  Yes, that is STILL not as stable as Linux, but that is not the point.  You seem to just want to destroy Microsoft cuz you don't like them.... that is a 5 year old's response.  Learn to use it as best you can, you CAN get it to work, many people do.

And good luck develping an xbox clone as open source... do you have any idea about R&D costs for a new console or new OS (such as your GameOS idea).  I understand your frustrations, we've all wanted to throw our windows machines out the window at one point or another, but I think you're taking it a little over the top.

[SOAPboy]

Throw your pentium 60 in the bin and try a newer version of windows than windows 95 - Case Closed.

Uh, I use an Athlon XP 2500+ and winxp.

I would clean out the registry, but it is sooooooo huge, and has too many dependencies.

then learn what apps latch to others..

simple.. its not more complicated than linux..

[Trimoor]

You seem to just want to destroy Microsoft cuz you don't like them.... that is a 5 year old's response.

But I wanna hate microsoft! WAAAAAHHH!  They's mean!  I's hate them!

</5 year old emulation>

The open source gaming system is for when I become fabulously wealthy from yet undetermined meanes.  In the meantime, I will stick to creating a gaming OS.

Oh, and dibs on GameOS.  In fact, dibs on every name ever created or will be created.

[spiffyshoes]

Windows? Linux?

Forget that, OSX to the rescue!!!!

ROFL

[Trimoor]

Don't get me started on OSX....
If I do, I won't be able to restrain myself.

Don't poke an apple hater with an apple.  The results will be...unpleasant.

[pointdablame]

So Trimoor.... what exactly DO you like?  

[Trimoor]

I like linux, but I would like it a lot better if the software companies would actually write for it.

I also like arcade controls.  And flashing lights.  Nothing else.

[SOAPboy]

I like linux, but I would like it a lot better if the software companies would actually write for it.

I also like arcade controls.  And flashing lights.  Nothing else.

yeah, to bad most companys could give a crap less about linux  

[Trimoor]

It's because they want to make money off tech support.
Thats also one reason they release buggy software.

[SOAPboy]

It's because they want to make money off tech support.
Thats also one reason they release buggy software.

they release buggy software because the people who publish is push a certain release date and presure them to get it done..

people like ubisoft are nutorious for that

[Trimoor]

people like ubisoft are nutorious for that

nu

[SOAPboy]

people like ubisoft are nutorious for that

nu

[abrannan]

It's because they want to make money off tech support.
Thats also one reason they release buggy software.

Yeah 'cause god knows Red Hat isn't trying to make money solely off tech support.  Or Suse, or Mandrake, or...  Oh wait!  That's their ENTIRE BUSINESS MODEL!

[Trimoor]

Yeah, but they still let you download the source for free.
If you have the source, you at least have a chance of fixing the bugs yourself.
They are offering support for the lazy/rich people.

[SOAPboy]

Yeah, but they still let you download the source for free.
If you have the source, you at least have a chance of fixing the bugs yourself.
They are offering support for the lazy/rich people.

no they offer it because they know their os is to confusing for the average user and they know they can make money off it..