Windows 98, XP, DOS, or Linux?

[MysticalMatt517]

What operating system did you use for your cabinets and why? Is there one operating system that is easier to deal with over the others? Which one looks the best running in the cabinet? Will USB devices work with DOS? Have any of you played with Linux and XMAME? What have been your results?

I'm planning on building a cabinet soon, and consequently am looking for a direction. (I've got the book Project Arcade). I was just wondering if there is a generally preferred OS.

[Lilwolf]

I use 98SE... but have no reason to now that Analog+ got dual mice on XP.

I would vote XP for any new computer (1ghz+).  

Faster to boot, more stable, fast, easy.

Stay away from ME.  SE isn't bad... but doesn't boot as fast (and you will get annoyed if you don't keep it on 24/7)

DOS is great...for mame... no others.  And you loose a bunch of frontend options.  But you will get 5-10% speed increase on many games... oh yeah... you loose hardware stretching so you better have a monitor that can handle all the resolutions.

And for Linux.  It SHOULD be the BEST answer once you get it setup... FREE is always good.  it IS stable (compared to MS which is 2x as stable as the last version)...  BUT you need xwindows to get mame to run and that isn't as stable.  The is some versions that don't require it but I hear they aren't as fast.  Also you will loose many other emulators support and frontend support.

[DaveJ-UK]

I don't know the first thing about *nix but I totally agree with wolf about Windows ME don't touch that piece of sloath turd with a barge pole.

If you have a very low end system <Pentium go DOS.

98SE is pretty good but I would go 2000 on a P2 or better. It's pretty much the same OS (2000 is NT 5.0 while XP is NT 5.1). However, it does have some updated graphics bits and pieces which chomps up a little more CPU time and memory. I use 2000 on a P4 2.26 with 256MB PC2100 and it runs almost everything.

And make sure you install all the updates for whatever OS you use.

[Gameboy.au]

I tried Linux both with debian and Lindows, but due to my limited experience (*read "no idea what I was doing"*), I had to abandon that idea, even though I would freely admit that my PC has never run quicker.

In the end, I am running Win98SE with a Windwos 95 explorer shell.  I did this using a small uitilty called 98lite from www.litepc.com

This allowed me to use Windows 98SE, but being able to uninstall IE, something that I don't need in a cab and slows down the whole system anyway.  I can now leave the PC running for days without drama and having to rebot every 5 hours  

With MAME Wah as my front end, It's a good set up

[paigeoliver]

In the past I have used windows 98 SE a lot, windows 95 once, windows 2000 once, and DOS several times.

Currently I have a dos cab and a windows 98 cab that I am going to switch over to dos.

Probably going to go DOS on all future projects except the Battlezone, which will be XP.

[Nefesis]

has anyone ever tried 95? i have an old 95 i was going to use... but should i install windowsa 98? i might not have much RAM, so should i go with a DOS setup? and can DOS run USB ports? lots of questions, little time for answers   heh heh

[spystyle]

My biggest concern in relation to OS is speed, in my tests FreeDos + DMAME was about the same speed as Win98SE + FastMAME

(Win98SE + FastMAME has about 1 FPS faster, but no big deal)

The reason I prefer Win98SE + FastMAME is because of driver support : lets face it fellas, dos drivers are scarce unless you have older hardware. I use a new computer in my cab and there aren't DOS drivers for every card, so DOS isn't an option.

However, if i was using an old PII board with some ISA slots I'd fill 'em up with good old school sounblaster 16 and the usual supsects and run DOS.

There is also the issue of how painful the setup is : unless you grew up on it DOS is a real drag. I'm nostagic about it but the drivers for recent hardware just don't exist.

In my opionion Win98SE is the happy medium between difficult DOS and bloated WinXP, after all Win98SE is a DOS based OS and has been reguarded by many as very fast and user friendly.

Not to mention if you want to add some of your favorite PC games to your cabinet Win98SE makes it simple

(see this thread about favorite PC games on a cab http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=7479;start=0 )

Can you dig it?
Craig

[Pipercub]

It depends on your plans for accesories balanced against your desire for reliability in my opinion. I have 3 MAME machines running DOS and they stay up for months at a time and other than one or two rare instances of a game not booting up completely the only reboots of the machines are due to power outages, upgrades, or moving the machines around. If you want that sort of reliability and no need ever to resort to a mouse or keyboard (other than initial setup) and can live without USB accessories then I would say go DOS:>

My machines are as follows:

**Q*Bert clone
    Fixed vertical monitor
    Only Vertical ROMS
    Mame .67
    ArcadeOs
    3 buttons 1 joystick +2 player start buttons
    iPac encoder
    PIII 800 /512Mb ram /TNT2 32Mb AGP/SB16 ISA

**Asteroids Delux rescued from going to the dump
    Fixed horizontal monitor
    Only Horizontal ROMs
    Mame .67
    AdvanceMENU (note: new version with xml file will not run, older one does
    6 buttons 2 joysticks  + 2 player start buttons
    iPac encoder
    Athlon XP 2400/512Mb ram/TNT2 32Mb AGP/ SBPCI (DOS driver available for the one sold at WalMart)
   

**PacMan, also rescued from going to the dump
    Fixed vertical monitor
    PacMan series ROMs only
    ArcadeOs
    Mame .36
    0 buttons + 2 player start buttons
    KeyWhiz encoder
    AMD K6II 240Mhz/ 64Mb ram/ Nvidia 32Mb PCI/same SBPCI as above

[Daniel270]

My MAME cab has an older HP (Pavilion 6633C) in it and it's using the stock Windows 98SE...  The system isn't worth using for much of anything else... but it does play the majority of the games I like with ltttle to no problems  

About the only real problem with it is the lack of Memory... it's still running on the original 64MB Ram that's stock in it.... (PC 100 chips are getting a bit more difficult to find...and ebay is a hit and miss).

[Pipercub]

You should have no trouble using something faster than PC100, I have PC133 in the AMDK6II and PII800

[Daniel270]

Normally, I'd agree with you Piper, but when I got ready to check into upgrading this particular PC for other gaming, I saw on the HP site that it's pretty much strictly PC100 chips (that's all the MB supports)...

so, I'm stuck with it like it is unless I come across a good deal on some more RAM

[jcoleman]

And for Linux.  It SHOULD be the BEST answer once you get it setup... FREE is always good.  it IS stable (compared to MS which is 2x as stable as the last version)...  BUT you need xwindows to get mame to run and that isn't as stable.  The is some versions that don't require it but I hear they aren't as fast.  Also you will loose many other emulators support and frontend support.

You do NOT need X-Windows to support MAME on Linux.  As a matter of fact, my last two Linux builds for my cab did not even have X-Windows installed.  AdvanceMAME is the way to go with Linux, particularly if you have an arcade monitor.  A friend and I (you may remember him from MAMEd-Millipede fame) have both used Linux successfully in three cabs.  The Matrox g400 is a great card to use with this setup, BTW.  This is the way to go if you want TRUE resolutions and scan rates.

ArcadeVGA is also great for this, but I don't know how well it's supported in Linux, and that is off topic anyway.  

It's true that you do lose some emulators in Linux, as well as most of the front ends.  It all depends on what matters to you most.  I'd say if you are only looking to play the old classics, then Linux & AdvanceMAME is the way to go.

Coleman

[krick]

Check out this thread (about halfway down and again near the end) for some of the pros and cons of various versions of windows...

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=33

[TaaJ]

One Thing, don't listen to the people who say Windows 98SE is so and so many times faster than XP.

20 seconds of tweaks will crush these assumptions.

For one, turning off the gawdy XP themes and using classic, will give you upwards of 3-5% speed and efficiencey.

[Tilzs]

Linux works great if you are able to get it setup. You don't need Xwindows, just run advance mame and advance menu. If you want more fancy front end you might want to look at windows however, there are a bit more choices.

[spystyle]

Linux works great if you are able to get it setup. You don't need Xwindows, just run advance mame and advance menu. If you want more fancy front end you might want to look at windows however, there are a bit more choices.

Have you done any tests to prove it ?
I've tested FreeDOS,WIN98SE, and WINXP professional via FPS with different builds of MAME, and I'm certain that WIN98SE is quick, the proof is in the pudding, you must test before telling him who "not to listen to"

(It's even quicker if you remove internet explorer using the free 98lite utility, and if you shell out $40 for a cheap GeForce card Nvidia's drivers fly in WIN98SE)

Not to mention if he's a noob he may like to simply run MAME32, no muss no fuss, easy to setup with reasonable speed.

In my opinion XP is way too bloated for use on a cabinet.

[TaaJ]

Linux works great if you are able to get it setup. You don't need Xwindows, just run advance mame and advance menu. If you want more fancy front end you might want to look at windows however, there are a bit more choices.

Have you done any tests to prove it ?
I've tested FreeDOS,WIN98SE, and WINXP professional via FPS with different builds of MAME, and I'm certain that WIN98SE is quick, the proof is in the pudding, you must test before telling him who "not to listen to"

(It's even quicker if you remove internet explorer using the free 98lite utility, and if you shell out $40 for a cheap GeForce card Nvidia's drivers fly in WIN98SE)

Not to mention if he's a noob he may like to simply run MAME32, no muss no fuss, easy to setup with reasonable speed.

In my opinion XP is way too bloated for use on a cabinet.

Pretty sure you meant to quote me.

Yes I have tested it using benchmarks.  Eliminiating Themes alone gave me a 4-5% boost in overall speed.

That 4-5% boost puts it about on par with SE.  Of course there are other "services" to disable (for both).  SE is faster yes, but I'm sick of reading threads where people say SE is twice as fast. (heck, some people say it's 5-10x faster).  The difference is not that big.

And certainly when emulating games where you are hitting you are pretty much hitting a cap too begin with.  If you're emulating some of the newer games, I guess the 1-2% perfomance you'd get would help a tad...

[SirPoonga]

Right now, linux.  Because it's a duel cely system.  I am getting a new computer fo rit which will have XP on it.  I have enough windows only emulators and windows game that are good for arcade cabinet that I need to get windows back on the cabinet.

[vputz]

I'm using Linux myself, although it's not a standalone cab, it's my home-theater PC with a CP attached.

I will say this: I absolutely love Linux, and I absolutely would not recommend it to the casual cab builder unless they are already familiar and comfortable with it.  Maybe one of the bootable MAME distributions.  Just getting TV-out working correctly was a hassle.

If you're looking for a rewarding educational experience, don't mind a bit of frustration, and like to work with an industrial-strength OS, you can't go wrong with Linux (I *love* my HTPC box, which serves now as video recorder, MAME box, webserver, mail server, and more).  

But if you've never worked with it before, it can be pretty intimidating and can result in some weirdnesses (my current wierdness: neither the keyboard or my CP can generate keypresses fast enough to keep the birds in the air in "Joust"--but plugging in a USB gamepad and using the joystick works just fine).

-->VPutz

[seibu]

You do NOT need X-Windows to support MAME on Linux.  As a matter of fact, my last two Linux builds for my cab did not even have X-Windows installed.  AdvanceMAME is the way to go with Linux, particularly if you have an arcade monitor.  A friend and I (you may remember him from MAMEd-Millipede fame) have both used Linux successfully in three cabs.  The Matrox g400 is a great card to use with this setup, BTW.  This is the way to go if you want TRUE resolutions and scan rates.

ArcadeVGA is also great for this, but I don't know how well it's supported in Linux, and that is off topic anyway.  

I can back this up completely. By the way, the ArcadeVGA is great to use under Linux. The console displays at 15Khz from boot and you can use AdvanceMAME to set up all the resolutions. Since AdvanceMAME programs the video card directly, it's basically like having any other card but with stupidly low pixel clock capabilities. Yay!

Also, if you use something like Gentoo Linux and compile everything specifically for your architecture, you may well see a speed increase over Windows or DOS. I certainly did!

[seibu]

But if you've never worked with it before, it can be pretty intimidating and can result in some weirdnesses (my current wierdness: neither the keyboard or my CP can generate keypresses fast enough to keep the birds in the air in "Joust"--but plugging in a USB gamepad and using the joystick works just fine).

-->VPutz

If you're using X, I'm not sure what's going on because I think it handles keybords itself, doesn't it? If you're using svgalib there are some keyboard options I think you can tweak in its config file. I also think there are some kernal compilation options you can play with concerning keyboard support. Sorry this is very vague, but I remember my installation giving me lots of options on keyboard buffering etc.

[danny_galaga]

im using win98se with mame32. mainly because i already had the disk. my new pc (and appearently all new pcs) came with xp installed but no cd. i havent done any proper benchmarking but i can turn my cab on and when its done shut it down again and then boot up once more before my pc has finished starting up. pc is a P4 2.6ghz, cab is an amd2000xp. both only have 256mb ram. that could show that if you dont have the latest hardware and you use windows, xp could get a bit clunky. I like how stripped back win98se can be. hate the idea of having stuff on the cab thats not needed. drawback is i cant even take a screenshot and edit it cos theres no paint! thats what the pc is for... ;-)
win98se seems more stable to me but then the cab isnt hooked up to the internet getting fiddled about with god knows what. seems those idiot virus senders target xp. i think really they should get a gun and target their brains!

[vputz]

If you're using X, I'm not sure what's going on because I think it handles keybords itself, doesn't it?

Yes, I'm using X, and yes, I believe it handles the keyboard stuff itself.  Somewhere in linuxland there's an answer.  But for now, it does almost everything I need.  At some point, probably when I get a new TV, I'll find a way to make a standalone cab out of my own TV and maybe lose X, but for now it makes life easier in other ways.

-->VPutz

[nipsmg]

Here's my rundown:

Slow computer : (i.e. 166 - 400)  DOS or Linux
   You want an OS that will run fast with minimal overhead and can run as many games as possible. The great thing about DOS here too is you have the emulators like vantage that run few games, but run them VERY well on slow dos machines.

Medium computer : (500 - 1ghz) DOS or Linux or WIN98SE
    Tradeoff here.  You want to run the classics, and you easily can, on any operating system.  If you don't know DOS or Linux and aren't good at really troubleshooting, you can run 98SE and have the ease of use that you need.  If you know DOS or linux, go with them to run the MOST games at full speed, or 98 if you don't care about the ultra high end games and don't want to bother.

Fast computer : (1ghz - 2ghz) Linux or 98SE or XP
   Tradeoff again.  Linux runs games fast, but unless you know it, forget it.  Linux has a large learning curve.  It pays off in the end, but it's a pain in the butt.  98SE here will run relatively fast, but ... it's 98.. so .. it's still susceptible to all the same crashes and crap that came with the 9x kernel.  Yeah it's better than 95 or ME.. but hey, I hate it personally.  --  Now, XP is a great OS.  and on these machines, it runs VERY WELL.  Will it run slower than 98? Sure.  But it WILL RUN STABLE.  and it boots very quickly.  XP is the choice.  XP is finally something done RIGHT by Microsoft (Besides the whole friggin blue interface Theme, which I hate.  so I switched it to windows classic theme and it's better.  *end off-track rant*

Really Fast Computer (ESPECIALLY if it's a hyperthreaded processor 2ghz+): WINXP!!!
   OK.  You're not going to be able to run California Speed or Crusin USA ANYWAYS.  Even with the ultra fastest P4 hyperthreaded 800 mhz bus w/ 2GIGS of DDR400 ram.  forget it..  NO WAY..  You can run EVERYTHING else at full speed in ANY os.  GET WINDOWS XP.  Update it with windows update. Get it set up to automatically log in with one user. It will be stable.  It will rarely, if ever, crash.  You won't have to spend 2 months figuring out how to use it.  There's a ton of available emulators and frontends for it.  YOU KNOW windows.  Go to http://www.asoftwaresolutions.com/product.asp?productid=481&categoryid=54 and order XP Pro for $120.  They're OEM Versions, I dunno if they're supposed to be selling them, but I got them, wrapped, with the labels to put on the outside of the computer, AND I called microsoft, AND they ARE legit versions of XP.. not pirated.  the holographic CD's and Book and everything.  RUN XP.

Disclaimer:  This is my OPINION.  I'm not calling anyone else stupid or a loser or whatever for picking their methods.  Don't flame.

End disclaimer.  


--NipsMG

[SirPoonga]

Note, hyperthreading doesn't affect mame, but the speed does.

[danny_galaga]

 YOU KNOW windows.  Go to http://www.asoftwaresolutions.com/product.asp?productid=481&categoryid=54 and order XP Pro for $120.  They're OEM Versions, I dunno if they're supposed to be selling them,

funny you mention that, because i finally got sick of my pc turning itself off at any old time. so i only just ordered xp pro (oem, i think it must be more readily available than it used to be). now i can finally reformat my c drive (all my files are on a different drive) and its goodbye mystery problem!! of course knowing my luck the problem will end up being just a loose connection! but how hard can it be to put a pc together? five months old and its already crap! im just glad the same people arent building aircraft!
 btw, even once i have an actual xp cd, ill still run win98se on my cab. its all set up now and nothing crashes.
and yes, i have put a pc together. the question was purely rhetorical (",)

[nipsmg]

Note, hyperthreading doesn't affect mame, but the speed does.

Well, it can indirectly, supposedly.

Background processes running while MAME is running can benefit from it, allowing a bit (albiet a small amount) more speed for running MAME itself.

That and the boot time.   It's insane how fast my PC boots.

The hyperthreaded processor really does give the overall system performance a noticeable speed boost.

--NipsMG

[SirPoonga]

Interesting, as hyperthreading shouldn't affect bootup too much.  At least until windows get control of the system, then there would be a little speed up.  But the hyperthreading procs are still the ultra fast 2Ghz+.  I don't notice that much of an increase on my duel celeron system when I use one or two procs for booting up and playing mame.  And that's at 366Mhz x2.

[captainpotato]

I will say this: I absolutely love Linux, and I absolutely would not recommend it to the casual cab builder unless they are already familiar and comfortable with it.  Maybe one of the bootable MAME distributions.  Just getting TV-out working correctly was a hassle.

Vputz, what sort of issues did you have? I'm planning to use AdvanceMAME in my cab using a TV (RGB or SCART hopefully). I'm not a Linux newbie and my machines all run it well, but I am curious to know how hard it was to configure.

[Chris]

I'm running Windows 98SE because of the dual lightguns; I'll probably upgrade to XP sometime in the near future to (hopefully) solve some sound issues. But if I could go back in time I never would have left DOS, and any future MAME-only cabinets I build will be DOS.

--Chris

[vputz]

what sort of issues did you have? I'm planning to use AdvanceMAME in my cab using a TV (RGB or SCART hopefully). I'm not a Linux newbie and my machines all run it well, but I am curious to know how hard it was to configure.

I'm overstating the difficulties a bit (my "absolutely would not use it for the casual cab builder" meant "someone who has never used Linux but heard from a friend that it was good for cabs").

My problems ALSO were more difficult because I was doing an HTPC with a relatively new motherboard (so had to do a custom kernel with both ALSA and Lirc modules) as well as coordinating the freevo home-theater software, XV video overlay stuff, TV-in and TV-out.

The actual MAME stuff was honestly not bad at all once I decided to just use xmame.x11 with XV output and not worry about trying to use framebuffer, sdl, whatever.  As with most Linux problems, the trick is finding the right hardware.  I wound up using an nvidia GeForce4mx440 after flailing for WEEKS to get an ATI Rage 128 to have proper TV-out (the solution turned out to be a discontinued CVS branch of an open-source ATI video driver, and at that point I threw my hands up and just bought a cheap NVidia TV-out card and never looked back--it works like a champ).  If you're looking for a tv-out card, look around the htpc forums for good suggestions.  The matrox G400 is very popular for many folks and pretty cheap these days since they're so old.

Second problem was sound on a new motherboard; I wound up using ALSA for an a7n8x-x, and once I figured out to use ALSA instead of the OSS intel 810 drivers, it worked like a champ.  Just wasn't obvious.

Joystick and keyboard input was almost no problem at all.  The USB hid stack works fine.  My box has a weirdness, though--if I just boot it and try to use the joystick--kernel lockup.  If I rmmod and then re-modprobe joydev, works like a champ.  No ideas here.

Trackballs under X11 require some finesse.  It worked best to use the trackballs as XInput devices, but NOT as XInput devices that generated core events.  I'll spare you the details here, but it was quite painful figuring it out for such an easy solution; I can explain in further detail if you run into problems.  I don't know if Linux can handle multiple trackballs without X11, but I'm using regular old xmame.x11, and not advancemame, so don't know about that.

I also had weeks of trouble with wireless lan (eventual solution had me swapping the wlan card into a windows box to flash the card's firmware, then return it to the linux box in addition to using yet more third-party modules that weren't part of the kernel distribution, whee).

And still, after all that, I can't play Joust because I can't generate keyboard events fast enough.  Ah well.

-->VPutz