Please support our troops.

[glitch77]

NO DEBATES

NO POLITICS

Please. Please support our troops.

[maraxle]

I feel bad for everyone who's stuck over there.

[glitch77]

I watched an American have his head cut off while alive.

It allmost brought me to tears.

[maraxle]

The pictures of Americans abusing prisoners were pretty disturbing too.  I hope eventually we'll get a president who will get us out of this mess.  Either that or I hope I get the chance to move elsewhere.

[glitch77]

I'll buy your plane ticket.

Your not worthy of this country.

[glitch77]

And by the way, this statement:

The pictures of Americans abusing prisoners were pretty disturbing too.

Makes me sick.

You compare humiliation to murder.

Any chance you live on the Left coast?

[maraxle]

I'll buy your plane ticket.

Your not worthy of this country.

I'm not worthy?  Because I think we're in a bad situation, I'm not worthy?  Because I'd rather move than get decapitated over oil rights, I'm not worthy?  Fine then.  PM me and I'll take you up on that plane ticket offer.

[glitch77]

Where ya wanna go? France?

Any person that is so far gone that they wanna leave this country, should.

[maraxle]

And by the way, this statement:

The pictures of Americans abusing prisoners were pretty disturbing too.

Makes me sick.

You compare humiliation to murder.

Any chance you live on the Left coast?

By the way, I didn't compare them at all.  I was just mentioning that those were some pretty disturbing images too.  I feel bad for the poor soldiers who are going to take the fall for the prison abuse, since they probably were directed to do it.  I also feel bad for any other soldiers who get captured over there, like the contractor who got decapitated, because those images will only make things worse for them.

And no, I'm not on or from the Left coast.  East coast born and bred.  

[MrBond]

NO DEBATES

NO POLITICS

I agree, no matter your opinion, our troops need your support.

[mmmPeanutButter]

vote nader.

[glitch77]

I am done with this thread, I said what I wanted to say, and that was:

Support our troops.

And of course, its now a 'we invaded a perfectly peacefull country for no reason just to steal their oil' thread.


I for one am DAMN proud to be an American, a country that doesnt roll over and die at the drop of a hat.

[Aceldamor]

I saw that video also....it's a whole different ballgame when it's real life vs. hollywierd.  It was surreal.

I have a best friend over there right now, I support our troops 100 percent. I personally have allot of mixed emotions about what is going on politically, but this isn't the time or place for my opinions.

God bless that man's family, God bless our troops.

God bless PFC Albert Celaya (My best friend)

[maraxle]

Any person that is so far gone that they wanna leave this country, should.

You're completely jumping to conclusions on what I said.  I don't want to leave anymore than you do.  However, I think that this war is making us very unpopular in the world right now.  And personally, I would rather leave than face the potential repercussions that could come out of a prolonged campaign over there - a campaign that I don't personally believe is a just campaign - especially after all those abuse pictures came out.

[glitch77]

I don't want to leave anymore than you do.

I was wondering when the liberal backpeddeling would begin.

However, I think that this war is making us very unpopular in the world right now.

And they loved us before?

And they didnt attack us before?

And they didnt kill thousands of Americans a while back?

Fairy tales I suppose.

[NoBonus]

I saw that video also....it's a whole different ballgame when it's real life vs. hollywierd.  It was surreal.

I have a best friend over there right now, I support our troops 100 percent. I personally have allot of mixed emotions about what is going on politically, but this isn't the time or place for my opinions.

God bless that man's family, God bless our troops.

God bless PFC Albert Celaya (My best friend)

I find this war so strange, I mean, the men and women fighting over there are kids! 18, 19, 20, 21 years old.  I am in my late twenties and I would have a terrible time dealing with the terror they must face and these are just kids.  I hope the make it home safe and keep up the good work.

Andrew "NoBonus"

[maraxle]

I don't want to leave anymore than you do.

I was wondering when the liberal backpeddeling would begin.

Your initials wouldn't happen to be G.W.B., would they?  

However, I think that this war is making us very unpopular in the world right now.

And they loved us before?

And they didnt attack us before?

And they didnt kill thousands of Americans a while back?

Fairy tales I suppose.

Who is this "they" you're talking about?  Most Arab countries have hated us for quite a while.  Al-Qaida attacked us before.  Al-Qaida killed thousands of Americans a while back.  When I say "the world", I am not just talking about the Arab nations and Al-Qaida terrorists.  I am talking about all of the countries of the world.  Places that were traditionally our allies are not supporters of this war.  I'm concerned with our popularity with them.

[maraxle]

I have a best friend over there right now, I support our troops 100 percent. I personally have allot of mixed emotions about what is going on politically, but this isn't the time or place for my opinions.

That's where I'm at.  I just allowed an opinion to slip out and got crucified for it.

[glitch77]

When I say "the world", I am not just talking about the Arab nations and Al-Qaida terrorists.  I am talking about all of the countries of the world.  Places that were traditionally our allies are not supporters of this war.  I'm concerned with our popularity with them.

There are only a few select country (can cound them on less that five fingers) that are our 'allies' anyhow. Sure, there are alot of countrys that will stand by us on paper if there is something to gain for them, but during conflict they are pretty absent.

Just because South Africa or Yugoslavia wont pledge support, doesnt mean its wrong.

[Todd H]

I've seen the video.  It literally sickened me.  

Having said that, I now believe it is time to leave Iraq.  At first I supported the President.  But over the last year my opinion has changed for many reasons:

1. The American people were told Iraq possessed WMDs.  We have yet to find a single one.

2. The administration hinted at a Saddam/Bin Laden connection that was never proven.

3. The war has done nothing to improve our relationship with the people of the middle east.   If anything they now hate us more than before.

4. Many of our long-time allies no longer support us.  We can't throw diplomacy out the window.  Our foreign policy seems to now consist of us giving the rest of the world the middle finger.

5. We should have used the money and resources spent in Iraq in Afghanistan instead.  That is where Bin Laden is.  That is where al-Qaida is as well.  Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the man that beheaded Mr. Berg?  Yep, he's al-Qaida too.  Imagine if we had used the Iraq resources in Afghanistan.  We probably would have captured or killed both of these men by now.

And before anyone starts calling me a "commie liberal" I'm a registered Republican.  Shocking huh?

Lastly, I have and always will support our troops overseas.  I come from a military family.  God bless our brave men and women serving in foreign lands.

[Zapper]

I didn't watch that video and I'm not planning to, I don't get my kicks watching people die. And those Iraq prison pictures are sickening, nobody should be treated like that. Why is the media so excited about showing all the pictures? Isn't the media violating the Geneva Convention?
 
I have a cousin in Afghanistan and friends of the family in Iraq and Kuwait. The letters they send home are always positive. Only the negitive stuff ends up in the news. They have my support.

[Jakobud]

I don't think that some of you guys understand that America will ALWAYS be a target for terrorism NO MATTER WHAT.  America stands for a sense of freedom that is not right in the eyes up muslim extremists, therefore we will ALWAYS be targets... You think just stopping fighting terror is gonna make people leave America alone?  You are so wrong.  We either sit here and wait for the enemy to attack our way of life, or we go out there and take care of the problems before they start.  If America backed down and left everyone alone and stopped supporting every country and only worried about itself, we will STILL be targets by outsiders.

[SNAAAKE]

Convo between 2 countries.

US:Hi,we wanna go to your country and jack all your oil.
Iraq:why ? C'mon man I thought we were friends
US:We don't care,we will cuz we can and you can't do a thing about it.
Iraq:ok..ok we'll see.We will fight with swords if thats what it takes to save our country.
US:Fsss..ya right! we'll surface pierce bomb your --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- for free cuz we can and its fun
Iraq: DAMN !

LOL
(no offence to anyone just sayin)  

[SirPeale]

Unrelated to the troops:

Bush and Kerry should NOT be in office!
Vote "None Of The Above" this coming election!
Make your vote count!  Get the clowns out!

[hulkster]

ah yes, the political opinion thread finally rears its ugly head in this forum.  i really dont think this should be discussed here personally.  this is build your own arcade controls, not build your own political party, so everybody calm down and quit arguing about this.  you arent going to change anyones mind most likely regardless of how much "proof" you have or whatever.  there are pros and cons to every situation, even wars.  a vietnam vet said to me once....

wars arent as crazy and illogical as people think.  war is kinda like a cancerous tumor...if you let the tumor sit in the body for a while, it will become bigger and stronger and eventually take over the body.  so you have to go in and get rid of the tumor for the good of the rest of the body.  some times sacrifices have to be made for the greater good.  

i agree...support our troops.  do i think bush is absolute moron?  no.  do i think he is lying to the american people? no.  i think bush is doing what he feels is right.  whether that is the general consensus of the rest of the world, who knows, but he was voted into office, and now everybody gets pissy when he makes a decision?  the next election will tell how americans want to be led in the next 4 years.  i dont think anyone can come in an fix our country, because we are way too hateful and greedy.  chris rock said it best: "democrats are f'ing idiots, republicans are f'ing idiots.....if you make your decision based on your party before you hear the issue, you are an idiot."  

but anyway, i think this thread needs be given the boot.  doesnt belong here.  kinda ironic though, seeing in that i just posted in it.  ha!  mods, get rid of this thread...has nothing to do with arcades!  

[fredster]

I support our Troops with all my heart.

We don't need to discuss the reasons why they are there, the country is split on that right now.

But I'm proud of them, and I know they are doing the best they know how. They are the strongest army and the most dedicated troops in the world.  

[nipsmg]

I support the troops 100%.  The troops are over there because they have to be, and hope they all come home safely.  I pray for them daily.

That said, I don't agree w/ the war.  Many people shout "al qaeda", but the war in iraq has little or nothing to do with it.  In my opinion (and it's just that, don't blast me for it), 100% of our efforts should be concentrated on finding and detaining the #1 threat to the U.S...  The one person (not even a COUNTRY!!!) who has brought a successful attack on the US Mainland since.....  god who knows?!? the war of 1812?-- Osama bin Laden.  (I'm not leaving out pearl harbor.  I said mainland...)--

Although I do agree that Saddam had to go, and that he was deifnitely shady, and I do believe he had WMD's and hid them pretty well, there was no immediate reason to go into iraq, and it iraq & saddam shuold have been a secondary target.  There have been no proven ties between al qaeda and Iraq (although I personally think they exist).

One thing I don't support, however, is the treatment that the iraqi prisoners got.  We shout "geneva convention" all the time about our POWs, but we go ahead and abuse iraqui prisoners also.. And this poor american contractor was beheaded in response to those actions.

Not that I blame those soldiers for the barbaric and inhumane treatment that poor contractor got.  I sincerely hope that we put all our efforts into finding and punishing those wastes of human life.  It saddens me to know that such barbaric people still exist in this world.  I was sick to my stomach watching that video, it took all I could to not vomit in disgust. The screams of that man are forever etched into my mind and I don't think I'll ever be right again after seeing that.


This whole iraq situation is a mess, and trust me, I don't blame the troops.  So because I don't directly support the war, don't think that I don't support those troops, fighting for their lives over there.  I just question what exactly it is they're fighting for.   This whole thing is starting to look like another vietnam to me.

--NipsMG

[NoBonus]

NO DEBATES

NO POLITICS

Please. Please support our troops.

You know something, I know how you feel.  Everywhere I turn there is debate about U.S. leadership and our involvement overseas, but I just want to let the kids fighting in the desert know that I am pulling for them, I hope things go their way, and I hope they make it home safe. That's it.

Andrew "NoBonus"

[abrannan]

Some numbers for everyone:

Number of US troops killed in Iraq as of 4/23/04: 707
Estimated number of Iraqi *citizens*, not soldiers, killed during the war: 5,000
Estimated number of Iraqi *citizens*, not soldiers, killed during Desert Storm: 3,500
Final tally of those killed on 9/11/01: 2749
Final tally of those killed in Bam, Iran on 12/26/03: 26,271
Average number of US troops killed *per day* from December 1941 - December 1946: 218
Estimated number of UK citizens killed by increased Ozone gases released by trees during the last heat wave in Britan: 600

Number of games supported in MAME 0.79b: 4752

[hulkster]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

[abrannan]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

Which is why we're in the "Everything Else" forum.

"Things that don't fit on other boards. There is more
tolerance for stronger language on this forum,
but the rules for civility remain the same. Bring strong
feelings and opinions -- leave hate at the door."

[hulkster]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

Which is why we're in the "Everything Else" forum.

"Things that don't fit on other boards. There is more
tolerance for stronger language on this forum,
but the rules for civility remain the same. Bring strong
feelings and opinions -- leave hate at the door."

hmmm....yeah i guess so.  i dont know, maybe its just my opinion, but even a everything else forum should be about games and arcade stuff ya know?  oh well, not my board, so i guess ill just keep out of this post

[SirPeale]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

That's why it's in "everything else."

[maraxle]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

estimated percentage of people being forced to read this thread = 0%

[bionicbadger]

I like pie

[JoyMonkey]

I like pie

me too.

[SirPeale]

Mmmm...pie.

Like pie.





PIE.

[abrannan]

I like pie

me too.

Typical of a top-wing pie-ist.  Cake is where it's really at.  Pie is only for those who want to support the bakery-sponsored handouts to the fruit farmers, which only serves to bloat the size of our bakeries.  Vote Cake in 2004!

[hyiu]

I support the troops and hope they all come home safely asap....

[abrannan]

How do you support our troops?  Everybody's always saying support our troops.  As absurd as I've gotten on this thread, I do wish no unnecessary harm to come to our troops.  One of my mom's students from a few years ago is currently a POW in Iraq, who could very easily find himself on a videotape in front of several masked men.  Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?  Does it mean I should protest if I think that our troops are being unnecessarily put in harms way by invading Iraq?  Does it mean I should protest those who are protesting the war?  Should I just think nice thoughts and hope everybody comes home safe?  Should I advocate nuking the entire Arabian peninsula into glass?  It's a very convenient thing to say "support our troops", or "I support our troops", but is there any action that goes along with those words?

[hulkster]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

estimated percentage of people being forced to read this thread = 0%

ha, nice.  i think we should support our troops by sending them pie and cake.

[nipsmg]

FIRE MISSILES!!

[Stingray]

Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?

Sadly there are all too many people in this country who seem to think so. These are usually the same people who think that Iraq attacked the World Trade Center.

I like pie and cake. I guess that makes me a no good wishy washy fence sitter.

-S

[maraxle]

Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?

Dear abrannan,

Yes.

Sincerely,

glitch77

[RacerX]

...
2. The administration hinted at a Saddam/Bin Laden connection that was never proven.
...

Actually, yesterday a story broke that may just prove the connection.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/World/Iraq-Had.Ties.To.911.Ringleader-680545.shtml

You can do with this what you will.  I don't know about the credibility of the sources.

It's interesting to note that the frontpagemag.com site seems to have "conservative" leanings, but the author of the article was advisor on Iraqi policy to the 1992 Clinton campaign.

[mmmPeanutButter]

Unrelated to the troops:

Bush and Kerry should NOT be in office!
Vote "None Of The Above" this coming election!
Make your vote count!  Get the clowns out!

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

[SirPeale]

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

I don't know enough about the man to make an informed decision.  Can you point me to some good info about him, and what he stands for?

[Buddabing]

How do you support our troops?  Everybody's always saying support our troops.  As absurd as I've gotten on this thread, I do wish no unnecessary harm to come to our troops.  One of my mom's students from a few years ago is currently a POW in Iraq, who could very easily find himself on a videotape in front of several masked men.  Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?  Does it mean I should protest if I think that our troops are being unnecessarily put in harms way by invading Iraq?  Does it mean I should protest those who are protesting the war?  Should I just think nice thoughts and hope everybody comes home safe?  Should I advocate nuking the entire Arabian peninsula into glass?  It's a very convenient thing to say "support our troops", or "I support our troops", but is there any action that goes along with those words?

You can support our troops by doing the little stuff such as:
1) Sending a care package
2) Wearing a flag pin on your lapel
3) Honor returning soldiers by having a parade
4) Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree.
5) Pray for them if you are religious (or even if you're not)
6) Donate time or money to charities which are devoted to helping the wounded soldiers or the families of the dead ones.
7) Volunteer at the local VA hospital.

That kind of stuff.

I agree with you that it is ridiculous to say that you "support the troops" if you never take any actions to help them. Thinking nice thoughts and hoping everyone comes home safe is not support.

[mmmPeanutButter]

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

I don't know enough about the man to make an informed decision.  Can you point me to some good info about him, and what he stands for?

Check out  Nader's Website.  

He's got a section on his issues.  My favorites are:
Wants a crackdown on corporate crime and abuse
Opposition to Media Bias and Media Concentration
Fair Trade that Protects the Environment, Labor Rights and Consumer Needs
A Federal Budget that Puts Human Needs Before Corporate Greed and Militarism
Opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq
Supports Equal Rights for Gays and Lesbians
Wants to end the war on drugs
Wants to create a new energy policy
Toward a world of peace, justice, and fulfillment of human possibilities within a sustainable environment

The real thing that I think is important, whether or not you agree with his politics, is that we begin to make the move towards a 3-party system.  Found a great article online.  Here's a clip:

What do we do as red-blooded Americans who want clean politics and progressive, responsive policies [do]? We sit around engaging in the "least worst?" [He imitates a voter, holding his nose.] "I'll go vote for Gore." Or do we get out there, like Thomas Jefferson counseled, try to change the paradigm, enrich the dialogue, get more candidates, local, state, national.

We need to make a change... and the change is now.  ok, November.

(Peale, thanks for showing me how to do the links, got a lot of practice on this thread)  

[DrewKaree]

How do you support our troops?  Everybody's always saying support our troops....It's a very convenient thing to say "support our troops", or "I support our troops"

I have a question that I am looking for someone to answer.  To me, words MEAN something, and I am not hearing any words that have meaning from politicians.  I don't want something regurgitated that you heard on the radio, but a thoughtful response.  Please re-read your response to my question before posting it, because I'm looking for something concrete, not an empty phrase uttered because you can't convey in better words what you really mean.  


"I support our troops.  I do not believe we should be at war".  


My problem with this catchphrase is this:  Our troops, for whatever reason, volunteered their service for our country.  That means they may have to kill people.  Killing people is part of war.

My question is this:  Which troops do you support?  They all chose to serve their country (regardless of their reason) and are serving in battle.  Do you support the troops who feel we are wrong to go to war but still complete their duties?  Do you support those who feel we are right in going to war, which directly contradicts your position?  Do you support the troops who posed for the pictures all over the news?  

Do you see what I'm saying?  "I support our troops" is an empty statement if you disagree with what those "troops you support" are doing.  The troops you should truly be worried about are the ones who claim they don't agree with the war, either, but don't stop the "revulsive" things plastered all over the news.  I believe the "troop support" is thrown in there to avoid being shunned as "heartless", and what they mean is usually said directly after the "but" part of what they say.  

Please, someone articulate in some other fashion something better than "I support our troops".  Please remember, something concrete that isn't contradicted with whatever comes after "but".  

The U.S. of A is a free country where people long ago paid the ultimate price for your right to say and believe anything you choose, even that which directly flies in the face of those sacrifices.  There is no need for you to leave this country, as many would want.  This is usually said with the same idea behind "I support our troops but not the war".  There is no thought behind the words, only anger at not being able to properly voice intelligent responses.  

I myself wish the media's hyperbole towards their fellow country(persons) would be tempered with the same righteous indignation towards the evil acts committed by those who oppose us.  If two wrongs don't make a right, what about three or four?  Why do we decry Adolf Hitler, yet when similar actions are exposed, the same voices are curiosly silent?

If our actions can be said to have "brought this upon ourselves", then someone, please, enlighten me on this issue as well:  What did the Jews do to "bring this upon themselves" when Hitler did what he did?  Those who oppose us wish us wiped from the face of the earth.  Were Hitler's goals not the same?  

I give you all the things I have been thinking of, because I truly want someone to dispense with the "I support our troops but am against the war" .  

I agree with everything our troops have done in this war, including any and all images you have seen.  The current photos which "supposedly" prompted this man's beheading DID serve our country.  We now have first-hand knowledge of how those who oppose  us think war should be fought.  

Do you support THEIR "troops", since they are against our war, too?

I know this seems a backhanded way to ask my question, but I really want someone to think about the hollow ringing of that phrase and re-phrase it to effectively state what they truly mean.

It is your right to disagree with me.  If you don't have an answer to what it means, I'm glad I made you think about it.  If you do have an answer for me, I appreciate your effort to inform me as to how your thought process works.  If I haven't informed you sufficiently, please tell me what I am missing, as well.

[menace]

I think its possible to support the troops as well as not like the war for the simple reason that these men and women have volunteered to do what we as lay-citizens either cannot or will not do.  And I as a free person living in a free country can appreciate and recognize this service--regardless of what the specifics of the service are--I support them in peace as well as in war because I know that the service they provide is a valuable and needed one--regardless of the current operation.

As far as the war goes, I think all of us were lead astray with the real reasons why it was being carried out--if they had said from the start--we are doing this because saddam hussein is a rotten pecker and needs to be taken out--I say right on--thats why the UN was founded in the first place, so that other hitler's couldn't take root.  Unfortunately the current president gave many reasons and only fell on the "its for the best" line after the others couldn't be validated.

So i think that all the troops should be treated as heroes irrespective of where they were and why--the politicians decide on the theaters of conflict not the troops--any disagreements I have with their choice of theater I consider to be between me and the politicians, and does not disrespect the fighting men and women in any way.

[abrannan]

So i think that all the troops should be treated as heroes irrespective of where they were and why--the politicians decide on the theaters of conflict not the troops--any disagreements I have with their choice of theater I consider to be between me and the politicians, and does not disrespect the fighting men and women in any way.

Well said, sir.  I respect our men and women in military service because they are the reason I can sit here today and say whatever I want without fear.  They do a dirty, nasty job that has to be done.  What angers me is when I see their sacrifice being abused in a manner I feel is unnecessary.  The first Gulf War was just and right, a dictator decided to expand his territory by force, and we went to repel him.  The actions in Afghanistan were just also.  A ruling regime harbored a terrorist network responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, and refused to turn those individuals over to a world court.  Is this current war in Iraq just and necessary?  Honestly, I don't know.  Yes, Saddam was an unfit ruler, who committed atrocities against his own people.  That's pretty much an undisputable fact.  But the sanctions that were put in place 12 years ago seemed to be doing their job.  These very same sanctions eventually forced Khaddafi to back down in Libya.  There are plenty of other dictators all around the world that are committing similar atrocities against their people, why do we not invade those countries?  

The perception I have is that this is a personal vendetta against Saddam by George W Bush.  Not that I can blame him, I'd be pretty eager myself to go after a man who was behind an assassination attempt on my father, too.  I believe that this administration truly did believe that Saddam had WMDs, but I also think that they didn't look at the facts very closely, instead seeing what they wanted to see.  

But what really got me with this war is the fact that we completely ignored the United Nations in this whole affair.  We, the United States, are supposed to be the champoins of democracy.  The United Nations is supposed to be the global democracy.  If we ignore the decisions of that global democracy anytime we choose, what example do we set for the world?  That it's okay to toss the UN anytime they say something you don't like?  

So yes, drewkaree, I "support" our troops.  I acknowledge that they have volunteered to fight, kill, and possibly die for our country.  I believe that military service is a noble and honorable career and lifestyle.  But, I do not support this war.  I do not agree with the reasons that were given to start this war.  I feel that the sacrifices our armed forces are making, and the losses they are suffering, are unnecessary.  However, now that we are embroiled in this conflict, I think we absolutely need to stay in Iraq and see this through to a proper and complete end.  The alternative would make it all too likely that Iraq would end up with a ruler that was worse than Saddam in many ways.  

Does that start to answer your question, Drewkaree?

[hyiu]

let me state my opinion again...

I support the troops... I support the men and women who is out there doing the dangerous and dirty work for us...

and yes, I'm not doing anything in particular to support my words now... "no... I did not volunteer my time... nor donate my money so far..."

Does that mean I don't care ?? I don't think so... Honestly, I do care about them... and wish them all to come home safe and sound and soon....

I think being a good citizen.. a good person... a good neighbour... and give support to friends and families who have their loved ones there is also a support...

also trying to live a normal life here is some kind of support... (at least thats what I believe they're fighting for.... so that we do not live in terror...)

and in my personal opinion.... in this way, I AM helping.... in a very indirect way.... in a very minimal way....

(let me state my status... I do not have direct friends or relatives who is serving in the military...)

I think in this case, what my view on the war, on politics, ... etc. do NOT matter.... and I do NOT want to discuss whether US should be in the war or not.... whether Bush has done the right thing or not... etc etc...

I think I have said more than enough on this...

God bless the troops...

[jcoleman]

A vote for Nader is not a vote against Bush.  And that is what everyone who disagrees with the most secretive and dishonest president (note that I did not capitalize) since Nixon should be doing.  Voting against Bush.  There is ONE candidate who can beat Bush in this election, and his name is Kerry.  Nader does not stand a chance in hell of beating Bush.  If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

Nader is not affiliating with any party; he is running as an independent.  The 5% rule only applies to candidates nominated by a registered political party.  He may very well get his five percent...but what if Kerry loses by 1% in your state, and you voted for Nader?  You have handed Bush your state FOR NOTHING.

I don't think Kerry is necessarily the best person for the job either (I voted for Clark in the Virginia primary)...but I can tell you who the WORST person for the job is: George Bush.  

Some good places to research why I believe this are

http://www.salon.com
http://www.tompaine.com
http://www.americanprogress.org

I personally know at least 5 people who are serving or have served in Iraq, and I have so much respect for them it's unreal.  I'm lucky to call one of them my best friend and best man.  My sister-in-law is a nurse at Landstuul.  Here's to all our citizens coming home safely.

Coleman

[SirPeale]

This November, vote "None Of The Above"

I'm going to start my own campaign about it.

[mmmPeanutButter]

If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

Anyways, I think Bush scares the crap out of me.  His right-wing religious adgenda is the wrong way to lead a country - no doubt.  But if I vote Kerry, I personally will be cheating what I believe in.

Above all, I think one of the real travesties in our political system is that people don't vote. Get out and vote!  (unless of course you are a member of the religious right... in that case, stay home!)  

[maraxle]

Above all, I think one of the real travesties in our political system is that people don't vote. Get out and vote!  (unless of course you are a member of the religious right... in that case, stay home!)  

I abstained from voting in the previous two elections due to my personal beef with the electoral college system.  However, this time I'm voting if only to be able to tell my European friends, "Well, I voted against that idiot.  Don't blame me."

[DrewKaree]

Menace and Abrannan, if I'm reading you both correctly, when you say you support the troops, what that means to you is that you acknowledge what it is that they are doing (things that you may or may not like, but could not or would not be willing to do yourself, correct?) and that you appreciate them for doing it in your place so that a draft hopefully wouldn't have to be done, possibly putting you in that situation.  

*edit*Abrannan, you did say something almost verbatim to my take on it.  To clarify then, "support" means your thanks for taking your place?  I'm trying to state what I inferred from your posts.  If I am incorrect, or if you feel there's some nuance missing from my simplified version, please fill it in.  

I appreciate your replies and I believe you were trying to be civil in them.  I know some of my opinion leaks out, as did some of yours, but you've demonstrated tact.  I do have some replies, but I don't wish to post them and possibly have our replies degenerate into name calling

Abrannan, it has begun to answer my question, but if I was off base in my interpretation, then it actually hasn't resulted in anything yet.  Let me know.

[abrannan]

Drewkaree, I think you've got the gist of what I was trying to say. I put the quotes around the word support in my line because I wanted to highlight that I still don't know what suppoorting our troops means to me.   As far as continuing the debate, I really try to avoid letting things degenerate, and would be more than happy to continue exchanging viewpoints and ideas in e-mail or PMs, so we don't muck up this thread too much.  I try to realize that I don't know everything, and that everything I do know is passed through, and colored by, the filter of my beliefs.  That's why you'll see a lot of "I feel", "I think", and "my perception is.." in my posts.  That's the problem with the written word, it's way too easy to read a different tone into the words than the person had in mind when they wrote them.  

My thanks to you for keeping the discussion civil as well.  That's one thing I really like about these boards.  The people here are, by and large, really level headed and reasonable about differences.  Even the most inflammatory folks here don't hold a candle to the general level of rudeness and thickheadedness (look ma, a new word!) found most places on the internet.  

[DrewKaree]

Yeah, that's what I mean.  That "I support our troops" is like this year's new buzzword or catchphrase.  Kinda like "paradigm" or "think outside the box" was in the past.  

I like to think in concrete terms, and I don't feel like I have a comfortable concept of what "support" means.  I can't readily identify something I do that screams "THIS is what support means" or that something someone else does is DEFINITELY not supporting our troops.  I know agreement or disagreement with what is going on is not support, rather, it is just an opinion of what is happening.    

I just think the phrase comes out knee-jerk reaction like whenever the subject comes up, and no one has really put any thought towards WHAT it means.  I believe if more folks did, the phrase would die off, as we put into more specific words what we mean.  

[SirPeale]

A vote for Nader is not a vote against Bush.  And that is what everyone who disagrees with the most secretive and dishonest president (note that I did not capitalize) since Nixon should be doing.  Voting against Bush.  There is ONE candidate who can beat Bush in this election, and his name is Kerry.  Nader does not stand a chance in hell of beating Bush.  If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

So...pretty much what you're saying is don't vote for him, since there's not a chance of him winning?

If everyone has this opinion, then yes, he will never win.

Personally, I'm voting "none of the above" this coming election.  I hope others will too.

[abrannan]

Yeah, that's what I mean.  That "I support our troops" is like this year's new buzzword or catchphrase.  Kinda like "paradigm" or "think outside the box" was in the past.  

I like to think in concrete terms, and I don't feel like I have a comfortable concept of what "support" means.  I can't readily identify something I do that screams "THIS is what support means" or that something someone else does is DEFINITELY not supporting our troops.  I know agreement or disagreement with what is going on is not support, rather, it is just an opinion of what is happening.    

I just think the phrase comes out knee-jerk reaction like whenever the subject comes up, and no one has really put any thought towards WHAT it means.  I believe if more folks did, the phrase would die off, as we put into more specific words what we mean.  

That's sort of where I was going with my original rant...

[flampoo]

I'm a service member so I think I'm somewhat qualified to answer this question. Supporting the troops has nothing to do with political affiliation. As much as you'd like to think so, they're unrelated.
We're not asking that you vote for the person who will remove us from Iraq. That's not support. Support is saying thank you. Support is recognizing that you have the opportunity to thrive and make your own decisions and feel safe on your own soil because service members put their life on the line for that very right. Albeit a god-given right, it's a right that has to be defended.
Be grateful for a country that promotes humanitarianism. Take a deep look inside and ask yourself if you could do the same thing our troops are doing over there now. If you can't say yes, are you glad that someone else can? Shouldn't you be?

[DrewKaree]

Supporting the troops has nothing to do with political affiliation. As much as you'd like to think so, they're unrelated.

Well said.  I'd like everyone FOR the war to remember those that don't believe in this war may have a family member fighting and perhaps has died for our country.  It would be utter lunacy to say they didn't support at least THEIR troop member.  Your political affiliation is used to formulate your opinion of the war.

 

...you vote for the person who will remove us from Iraq. That's not support.

I really like that point.  I like the idea that some troops DO want to be offering this service for their country, even if they personally disagree with their commander-in-chief, and would continue to feel the same regardless of the figurehead.

Support is saying thank you. Support is recognizing that you have the opportunity to thrive and make your own decisions and feel safe on your own soil because service members put their life on the line for that very right. Albeit a god-given right, it's a right that has to be defended.

I hope the phrase "I support our troops" will be ousted from your vocabulary and "I thank our troops for the opportunity to thrive and make my own decisions and feel safe here at home" will take it's place.
Yeah, I can hear you saying "that's WAY too cumbersome, plus it just sounds silly".  If you actually DO "support our troops", and it's not just an empty phrase you throw out there so people don't think you're cruel and heartless, then doesn't it stand to reason that your show of "support" should be put into better, more descriptive words, lest someone dismiss your "catchphrase patriotism" as empty hollow words?

Think of the face of a soldier standing in front of you.  Which of the two do you think he would take more to heart?  What if he knew you personally opposed this war he just offered his life for?  Which of the two do you think he would more want to hear, and wouldn't he be more open to discuss/hear what you have to say if you were more concrete with your words to show what support means to you?  

I hope and pray someone decides to rid us of the current phrase going around and offer instead a phrase that has meaning.  Sure, it may be picked apart, but I'd like for someone to start saying what they mean, instead of something that may get them into trouble, because we were given the right to say things that might get us into trouble by soldiers long ago.  Let's start exercising that right, regardless of "party lines".  

As someone so eloquently stated it:

Be grateful for a country that promotes humanitarianism. Take a deep look inside and ask yourself if you could do the same thing our troops are doing over there now. If you can't say yes, are you glad that someone else can? Shouldn't you be?

Change your words so that they have meaning.  Please.

[Stingray]

Drey you make very valid points about the whole "support the troops" issue.

I'm personally opposed to the war. I do hope that no harm comes to to the troops, and do hope that they all are able to come home safe and as soon as possible.

-S

[maraxle]

How the hell could that florida fiasco happen in the most technologically advanced country in the world?

Florida is kind of like a penal colony, but instead of sending criminals there, we send old people.

[danny_galaga]

hehe. yeah, we have the gold coast in australia!
hey, i used to like the golden girls.

[fredster]

I just love it when people from OTHER countries try to tell the US what to do.  I don't understand why that happens, I guess everybody just loves to tell the US where it's gone wrong.

The US has the best equipped, best trained, and most dedicated Armed Force.  We don't use it lightly.  Our men in uniform have put their lives on the line when they are called, and that's the point of this thread.

If you support your troops, political ideology aside, then do something for one.  If you see a proud Soldier in a resturant, buy him lunch.  If you see one on the street, thank him/her for what they are doing.  That goes for all the troops, and the coalition forces too.  

They are doing what they are sworn to do.  They are honorable men and women that have committed their lives in the service of thier country.

I'm proud of them, all of them.

[mp2526]

As a former member of the Marine Corps.  I don't have a problem with people saying they support the troops even if they aren't doing anything tangible to prove the point.  Just knowing that when you get home from your duties you will not be chastized for decisions made that are out of your control is enough pay back for me.  While "support the troops" doesn't mean much to some, it means that we learned a lesson from Vietnam and realize that while the troups Volunteered to do their duty for their country, they have little control over where that takes them.

[Dartful Dodger]

I just love it when people from OTHER countries try to tell the US what to do.

Especially when they want us to do what's best for THEIR country.

[mp2526]

If you support your troops, political ideology aside, then do something for one.  If you see a proud Soldier in a resturant, buy him lunch.  If you see one on the street, thank him/her for what they are doing.  That goes for all the troops, and the coalition forces too.  

A simple handshake goes a long way.  I live in a somewhat liberal town that I wouldn't say hated the military, but didn';t really embrace it either.  It was just nice to know that after 9/11 people realized that just shaking my hand and saying thanks went a long way.

[danny_galaga]

Nuff said. You haven

[missioncontrol]

The best way to support the troops is to keep them in your prayers and wish them well. If you know a family member of one of our troops over there go out of your way to tell them you apriciate the work that they are doing. Also thank a vet for the freedom you have today.......

[DrewKaree]

You haven

[GGKoul]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

[maraxle]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

That depends on whether you're part of the electoral college or not.

[GGKoul]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

That depends on whether you're part of the electoral college or not.

Not sure what the "electoral college" is...  but I'm Canadian, and in Canada, anyone over the age of 18 is able to vote.  And if someone chooses not the vote, then they shouldn't complain afterwards.

[danny_galaga]

Just had a thought today.

 IVE supported your troops!!

When I was in the US last year I made a conscious decision to give money to anyone who asked. One guy who asked was a veteran of the

[Jam161]

Hmmm I agree with maraxle,  there is alot of countries that dont like the USA.

For example (not all of us but definetly some of us) your neigbours to the north. We were criticized by your government when we didnt follow you with a short leash into Iraq.  

unrelated to the war

your government taxed the imported softwood lumber... nafta... the f and t in there stand for free trade..  

your not all as free as your think, you know of your patriot act, i believe you also have a second patriot act

Ive seen alot in the news of people getting in crap for saying things against bush, wheres the freedom of speech..

your government lets corporations play around with the supreme court, the riaa thing is a joke

the love it or leave it attidude is insane, as is all the people who blindly follow thier leader.

[mp2526]

your government taxed the imported softwood lumber... nafta... the f and t in there stand for free trade..  

That goes both ways.  I don't know how many times I've sent goods to Canada and have my Canadian customers pay an import duty.

[MasTequila]

Alright I got to say this to preface where I am coming from.  I am a 20 year old college student and therefore this is the first election I can be a part of.  Also I am from Boston MA and I enjoy every freedom I have.  I have tried very hard to follow all this stuff.

Ok I do support our troops as I know several people who are over there fighting for... for.... me? Honestly I don't feel much safer now that we have abused the POW we have like that and the Terrorists are now going to one-up us by chopping off peoples heads.

I do hope that not another American life is spent in Iraq but it is war and we are trying to end terrorism by catching Sadam, oh wait we did that, no no by finding weapons of mass destruction, oh wait we haven't found anything in about 2 years, no no by getting Bin Laden, wait he is not in Iraq.  I guess after everything I am not sure why our national guardsmen and women are still there.

But still I hope every soldier comes home to their parents, kids, spouses, etc.

Now onto Bush.  I am sorry I have my peace with God but when the President of the free world talks to God and Jesus about what actions he should take regardless of what his Advisors may say I got to get him out.

There is stuff all over the place about what a moron and dimwit he is.  He has a DUI and so does his VP, you know in most states you cannot become a police officer if you have a DUI yet he became President.  

Also I am not going to get into the whole National Guard thing or the whole free speech issue which is very large for people my age either but if you want some funny bush facts their are tons of sites and even books dedicated to stupidity of that man.

Also his cabinet does some sketchy stuff with this whole 911 cover-up and the abuse in Iraq.

I am neither Democrat or Republican but I am American to the bone and I think the men that created this country would turn over in their graves if they could see what has happened.  In this election and the one before it the people have not had a candidate they like merely one that they dislike less. This has to stop.

~Mas

[fredster]

danny_galaga, while your political ideas are interesting and vaild, it's not the point of this discussion.

If you want to discuss your ideas about these issues, you can post on yahoo groups or usenet.  

The point of this was to show that we care about our troops.

[DrewKaree]

IVE supported your troops!!

thanks!  commie  I'd bet you're a swell person to know, regardless of our differences.  Thank you for defining your support and making it a tangible thing.

For the rest of you wanting to show your support by spouting diatribes OF EITHER VIEW, go crap up another thread like this one here...click to go there and spoil that thread.  You make a mockery of your party's viewpoint by choosing to air your gripes in a thread meant for a specific purpose, which ISN'T to argue how right you are or how wrong "they" are.  

[shmokes]

That and the strange notion that god blesses you but not others

That was hilarious.

I'm late coming to this thread, so most of what I have to say has already been said, but I have a couple of things to add.

Regarding whether or not people should be "crapping" up this thread, WTF?  The thread was started with a political call to action.  It was an extremely naive call to action at that.  Sadly, "support the troops" as used in the first post, was used in it's most common, bumpersticker form.  It was a political call to support, unquestioningly (I think that might be a made up word ), President Bush in a time of war.  Its like saying, "I don't want people to discuss performance or aesthetics or reliability, but EVERYONE SHOULD BUY HONDAS!"



Liberals know that conservatives love their country, but are simply misguided and/or ---uvulas---.  Conservatives commonly believe that liberals' biggest problem is that they  believe that America has major problems that need changed.  You get the retarded, "If you don't like it leave!"  or, "I'll buy your plane ticket -- probably to France!!!" comments.  This is from people who generally know nothing about France except that they were part of A MAJORITY of the members of the United Nations who did not believe war with Iraq was justified.  Does it occur to you that maybe, just maybe France isn't supporting America's war in Iraq (as they supported our war in Afghanistan) because they don't BELIEVE in it.  Are there any possible scenarios besides, "France hates America and the American way of life?"  Is there a possibility that this is evidenced by the FACT that the MAJORITY of the nations in the world agreed with France?  Doesn't the fact  that all of our justifications for going to war have turned out to be a load of crap suggest to you that maybe, JUST MAYBE France may have been on to something when they said that they thought our justifications for war in Iraq were a load of crap?

First, France kicks ass.  France kicked ass before the war, and would have continued to kick ass had they supported the war.  To put it in terms that you can understand, America kicks ass, even though our leader is a jackass.  America kicked ass five years ago when Clinton was our leader.  It will continue to kick ass if our moron president is reelected this November.  

Second, liberals love their country too (and are often also misguided), but they love it in a different way than the conservatives who claim otherwise (note, I didn't say ALL conservatives, but for the rest of this paragraph, when I refer to conservatives I'm talking specifically about the ones who believe that liberals don't love their country).  Ahem....conservatives love their country like a small child loves his parent, or like a sociopathic God kills his children.  That is to say, indescriminately.  Just as children do not ever question anything their parent does, so do conservatives behave this way toward American actions.  Everything America does is good.  Because America is good.  To say otherwise would be criticizing your country which is unpatriotic and proves that you don't love it.  Liberals, on the other hand, love their country in a way that is more, how should I say this.....like the way grownups love eachother.  Because liberals love their country, and afterall live in it, they want it to be really good.  And they want it to be good for everyone.  They aren't embarrassed to say that they are ashamed of little things like the three-fifths clause in the Constitution.  It's not that they don't love the Constitution, it's just that they don't love that part of it and are happy to have the 14th Amendment.  It's kind of the same when they oppose little things like an imperialistic leader that is taking away many of the rights that make us the supposed "land of the free."  We oppose our leader because he offends the core values of our country -- the values that make us love it.  And, in fact, not supporting your leader is one of the luxuries we have that makes our Country great.  

One final note on voting.  Not voting doesn't mean you don't have a right to complain.  I vote in presidential elections, basically "because".  My vote does not count.  I live in Utah.  There is no way, absolutely no way that a non-republican candidate will get an electoral vote out of Utah any time in the next twenty years.  This november, I will vote for John Kerry.  Yet every vote from Utah will be counted for Bush.  Millions of republicans in California will simply not have their votes counted.  Every California vote (a full 10% of all votes) will be counted for Kerry.  There are democrats in this state that will die having never had their vote counted for president, yet have never missed an election.  Our election system sucks.  

...and so on.

[Dartful Dodger]

Our election system sucks.  

If you don't like the way our country does things, move to France.

[shmokes]

 

[shmokes]

Our election system sucks.  

If you don't like the way our country does things, move to France.

The election system used in France and Germany IS in fact my favorite type of election.  Louisiana is the only state in America that uses this type.  It is similar in many ways to the american system, but is set up in such a way that if you are extremely liberal, casting a vote for the most liberal candidate won't effectively cast a vote for the most conservative candidate (as was the case if you voted for Ralph Nader in the 2000 election) or on the flip side, voting for Ross Perot  wouldn't be an effective vote for Bill Clinton.

I'm sure that most people would agree that elections are what largely define a democracy.  The overarching objective of an election is that the outcome reflects the will of the voters.  If Ralph Nader had not been running in the election in 2000, Gore would have won.  Few people would argue that.  Ross Perot took a lot of votes away from Bush senior.  He may have won if Perot wasn't in the race.  Isn't it strange and offensive to the idea of democracy, that the MOST liberal people in America voted G.W. Bush into office, and the MOST conservative people in America may have been responsible for Clinton winning his first election?

America's a stand-up place, but you short-change her by refusing to improve her.  She deserves more than blind faith.

[danny_galaga]

Now I guess we all know that the ancient greeks invented Democracy, right? In modern times weve left out the other half of their system- the Ostrakon. So in days of yore, one would cast ones vote for who they thought should be the king. When a winner was decided, he was king. Possibly for the rest of his life so long as people liked him. End of the election process. When he died there would be another election. What if after a while people don

[namzep]

The Ostrakon was not used purely on kings.  In Athens (often called the cradle of democracy) I believe anyone in elected office could be voted out in such a vote.  I remember one person who was ostracized three times.  Really a fairly good idea, however some controls would be need, due to the fickleness of the people in a democracy.

[danny_galaga]

i should have added that there a few leaders around who might perform better if they lived under the threat of being ostracised, ancient greek style...

[Grasshopper]

That and the strange notion that god blesses you but not others

That was hilarious.

I'm late coming to this thread, so most of what I have to say has already been said, but I have a couple of things to add.

Regarding whether or not people should be "crapping" up this thread, WTF?  The thread was started with a political call to action.  It was an extremely naive call to action at that.  Sadly, "support the troops" as used in the first post, was used in it's most common, bumpersticker form.  It was a political call to support, unquestioningly (I think that might be a made up word ), President Bush in a time of war.  Its like saying, "I don't want people to discuss performance or aesthetics or reliability, but EVERYONE SHOULD BUY HONDAS!"



Liberals know that conservatives love their country, but are simply misguided and/or ---uvulas---.  Conservatives commonly believe that liberals' biggest problem is that they  believe that America has major problems that need changed.  You get the retarded, "If you don't like it leave!"  or, "I'll buy your plane ticket -- probably to France!!!" comments.  This is from people who generally know nothing about France except that they were part of A MAJORITY of the members of the United Nations who did not believe war with Iraq was justified.  Does it occur to you that maybe, just maybe France isn't supporting America's war in Iraq (as they supported our war in Afghanistan) because they don't BELIEVE in it.  Are there any possible scenarios besides, "France hates America and the American way of life?"  Is there a possibility that this is evidenced by the FACT that the MAJORITY of the nations in the world agreed with France?  Doesn't the fact  that all of our justifications for going to war have turned out to be a load of crap suggest to you that maybe, JUST MAYBE France may have been on to something when they said that they thought our justifications for war in Iraq were a load of crap?

First, France kicks ass.  France kicked ass before the war, and would have continued to kick ass had they supported the war.  To put it in terms that you can understand, America kicks ass, even though our leader is a jackass.  America kicked ass five years ago when Clinton was our leader.  It will continue to kick ass if our moron president is reelected this November.  

Second, liberals love their country too (and are often also misguided), but they love it in a different way than the conservatives who claim otherwise (note, I didn't say ALL conservatives, but for the rest of this paragraph, when I refer to conservatives I'm talking specifically about the ones who believe that liberals don't love their country).  Ahem....conservatives love their country like a small child loves his parent, or like a sociopathic God kills his children.  That is to say, indescriminately.  Just as children do not ever question anything their parent does, so do conservatives behave this way toward American actions.  Everything America does is good.  Because America is good.  To say otherwise would be criticizing your country which is unpatriotic and proves that you don't love it.  Liberals, on the other hand, love their country in a way that is more, how should I say this.....like the way grownups love eachother.  Because liberals love their country, and afterall live in it, they want it to be really good.  And they want it to be good for everyone.  They aren't embarrassed to say that they are ashamed of little things like the three-fifths clause in the Constitution.  It's not that they don't love the Constitution, it's just that they don't love that part of it and are happy to have the 14th Amendment.  It's kind of the same when they oppose little things like an imperialistic leader that is taking away many of the rights that make us the supposed "land of the free."  We oppose our leader because he offends the core values of our country -- the values that make us love it.  And, in fact, not supporting your leader is one of the luxuries we have that makes our Country great.  

One final note on voting.  Not voting doesn't mean you don't have a right to complain.  I vote in presidential elections, basically "because".  My vote does not count.  I live in Utah.  There is no way, absolutely no way that a non-republican candidate will get an electoral vote out of Utah any time in the next twenty years.  This november, I will vote for John Kerry.  Yet every vote from Utah will be counted for Bush.  Millions of republicans in California will simply not have their votes counted.  Every California vote (a full 10% of all votes) will be counted for Kerry.  There are democrats in this state that will die having never had their vote counted for president, yet have never missed an election.  Our election system sucks.  

...and so on.

Interesting thread.

shmokes, I don't normally allow myself to get sucked into political threads but I just had to say I totally agree with all of that.

All of the phoney anti-French sentiment whipped up by the British and American governments is basically just a smokescreen to try and divert people's attention away from how isolated those two governments actually are over Iraq.

Notice how both Russia and China escaped serious criticism even though they were also totally against the war. Basically this is because those two countries are still too powerful to mess with.

I can't believe how easily some people are manipulated.

Vive la France!

[mattv]

still too powerful to mess with.

Still? Still? I got bad news for you man - our kids will be learning chinese in schools. Have you ever BEEN to china? It scares the hell out of me. George did the right thing in not pissing them off.

Think about it, there are a BILLION people there, and all of them want the same standard of living that you have, the same cars, the came arcade machines, the same computers, the same oil.

The sad fact is that there just isn't enough to go round, the only way they are going to get it is to eitehr take it or build up their industry to manufacture it. And either way this is going to shift the balance of power for the entire world.

[FractalWalk]

I just read through this thread and I think I'm dumber for the experience.

[mattv]

After repeated exposure to the "everything else" forum I don't really think I could GET any dumber.

I've hit rock bottom and started to dig.

[DrewKaree]

I've hit rock bottom and started to dig.

I like that phrase.  Is it there a patent or copyright on it?  If not, I'd like to borrow it, perhaps enter it into our lexicon...hmph?