Please support our troops.

[hulkster]

estimated percentage of relevance to arcade controls = 0%

estimated percentage of people being forced to read this thread = 0%

ha, nice.  i think we should support our troops by sending them pie and cake.

[nipsmg]

FIRE MISSILES!!

[Stingray]

Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?

Sadly there are all too many people in this country who seem to think so. These are usually the same people who think that Iraq attacked the World Trade Center.

I like pie and cake. I guess that makes me a no good wishy washy fence sitter.

-S

[maraxle]

Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?

Dear abrannan,

Yes.

Sincerely,

glitch77

[RacerX]

...
2. The administration hinted at a Saddam/Bin Laden connection that was never proven.
...

Actually, yesterday a story broke that may just prove the connection.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13323

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/World/Iraq-Had.Ties.To.911.Ringleader-680545.shtml

You can do with this what you will.  I don't know about the credibility of the sources.

It's interesting to note that the frontpagemag.com site seems to have "conservative" leanings, but the author of the article was advisor on Iraqi policy to the 1992 Clinton campaign.

[mmmPeanutButter]

Unrelated to the troops:

Bush and Kerry should NOT be in office!
Vote "None Of The Above" this coming election!
Make your vote count!  Get the clowns out!

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

[SirPeale]

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

I don't know enough about the man to make an informed decision.  Can you point me to some good info about him, and what he stands for?

[Buddabing]

How do you support our troops?  Everybody's always saying support our troops.  As absurd as I've gotten on this thread, I do wish no unnecessary harm to come to our troops.  One of my mom's students from a few years ago is currently a POW in Iraq, who could very easily find himself on a videotape in front of several masked men.  Does supporting our troops mean I should just nod and agree with everything GWB says?  Does it mean I should protest if I think that our troops are being unnecessarily put in harms way by invading Iraq?  Does it mean I should protest those who are protesting the war?  Should I just think nice thoughts and hope everybody comes home safe?  Should I advocate nuking the entire Arabian peninsula into glass?  It's a very convenient thing to say "support our troops", or "I support our troops", but is there any action that goes along with those words?

You can support our troops by doing the little stuff such as:
1) Sending a care package
2) Wearing a flag pin on your lapel
3) Honor returning soldiers by having a parade
4) Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree.
5) Pray for them if you are religious (or even if you're not)
6) Donate time or money to charities which are devoted to helping the wounded soldiers or the families of the dead ones.
7) Volunteer at the local VA hospital.

That kind of stuff.

I agree with you that it is ridiculous to say that you "support the troops" if you never take any actions to help them. Thinking nice thoughts and hoping everyone comes home safe is not support.

[mmmPeanutButter]

Peale, vote for Nader.  If he can get 5% of the vote, he will get funding in the next election.  We need to get away from the two-party system!

I don't know enough about the man to make an informed decision.  Can you point me to some good info about him, and what he stands for?

Check out  Nader's Website.  

He's got a section on his issues.  My favorites are:
Wants a crackdown on corporate crime and abuse
Opposition to Media Bias and Media Concentration
Fair Trade that Protects the Environment, Labor Rights and Consumer Needs
A Federal Budget that Puts Human Needs Before Corporate Greed and Militarism
Opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq
Supports Equal Rights for Gays and Lesbians
Wants to end the war on drugs
Wants to create a new energy policy
Toward a world of peace, justice, and fulfillment of human possibilities within a sustainable environment

The real thing that I think is important, whether or not you agree with his politics, is that we begin to make the move towards a 3-party system.  Found a great article online.  Here's a clip:

What do we do as red-blooded Americans who want clean politics and progressive, responsive policies [do]? We sit around engaging in the "least worst?" [He imitates a voter, holding his nose.] "I'll go vote for Gore." Or do we get out there, like Thomas Jefferson counseled, try to change the paradigm, enrich the dialogue, get more candidates, local, state, national.

We need to make a change... and the change is now.  ok, November.

(Peale, thanks for showing me how to do the links, got a lot of practice on this thread)  

[DrewKaree]

How do you support our troops?  Everybody's always saying support our troops....It's a very convenient thing to say "support our troops", or "I support our troops"

I have a question that I am looking for someone to answer.  To me, words MEAN something, and I am not hearing any words that have meaning from politicians.  I don't want something regurgitated that you heard on the radio, but a thoughtful response.  Please re-read your response to my question before posting it, because I'm looking for something concrete, not an empty phrase uttered because you can't convey in better words what you really mean.  


"I support our troops.  I do not believe we should be at war".  


My problem with this catchphrase is this:  Our troops, for whatever reason, volunteered their service for our country.  That means they may have to kill people.  Killing people is part of war.

My question is this:  Which troops do you support?  They all chose to serve their country (regardless of their reason) and are serving in battle.  Do you support the troops who feel we are wrong to go to war but still complete their duties?  Do you support those who feel we are right in going to war, which directly contradicts your position?  Do you support the troops who posed for the pictures all over the news?  

Do you see what I'm saying?  "I support our troops" is an empty statement if you disagree with what those "troops you support" are doing.  The troops you should truly be worried about are the ones who claim they don't agree with the war, either, but don't stop the "revulsive" things plastered all over the news.  I believe the "troop support" is thrown in there to avoid being shunned as "heartless", and what they mean is usually said directly after the "but" part of what they say.  

Please, someone articulate in some other fashion something better than "I support our troops".  Please remember, something concrete that isn't contradicted with whatever comes after "but".  

The U.S. of A is a free country where people long ago paid the ultimate price for your right to say and believe anything you choose, even that which directly flies in the face of those sacrifices.  There is no need for you to leave this country, as many would want.  This is usually said with the same idea behind "I support our troops but not the war".  There is no thought behind the words, only anger at not being able to properly voice intelligent responses.  

I myself wish the media's hyperbole towards their fellow country(persons) would be tempered with the same righteous indignation towards the evil acts committed by those who oppose us.  If two wrongs don't make a right, what about three or four?  Why do we decry Adolf Hitler, yet when similar actions are exposed, the same voices are curiosly silent?

If our actions can be said to have "brought this upon ourselves", then someone, please, enlighten me on this issue as well:  What did the Jews do to "bring this upon themselves" when Hitler did what he did?  Those who oppose us wish us wiped from the face of the earth.  Were Hitler's goals not the same?  

I give you all the things I have been thinking of, because I truly want someone to dispense with the "I support our troops but am against the war" .  

I agree with everything our troops have done in this war, including any and all images you have seen.  The current photos which "supposedly" prompted this man's beheading DID serve our country.  We now have first-hand knowledge of how those who oppose  us think war should be fought.  

Do you support THEIR "troops", since they are against our war, too?

I know this seems a backhanded way to ask my question, but I really want someone to think about the hollow ringing of that phrase and re-phrase it to effectively state what they truly mean.

It is your right to disagree with me.  If you don't have an answer to what it means, I'm glad I made you think about it.  If you do have an answer for me, I appreciate your effort to inform me as to how your thought process works.  If I haven't informed you sufficiently, please tell me what I am missing, as well.

[menace]

I think its possible to support the troops as well as not like the war for the simple reason that these men and women have volunteered to do what we as lay-citizens either cannot or will not do.  And I as a free person living in a free country can appreciate and recognize this service--regardless of what the specifics of the service are--I support them in peace as well as in war because I know that the service they provide is a valuable and needed one--regardless of the current operation.

As far as the war goes, I think all of us were lead astray with the real reasons why it was being carried out--if they had said from the start--we are doing this because saddam hussein is a rotten pecker and needs to be taken out--I say right on--thats why the UN was founded in the first place, so that other hitler's couldn't take root.  Unfortunately the current president gave many reasons and only fell on the "its for the best" line after the others couldn't be validated.

So i think that all the troops should be treated as heroes irrespective of where they were and why--the politicians decide on the theaters of conflict not the troops--any disagreements I have with their choice of theater I consider to be between me and the politicians, and does not disrespect the fighting men and women in any way.

[abrannan]

So i think that all the troops should be treated as heroes irrespective of where they were and why--the politicians decide on the theaters of conflict not the troops--any disagreements I have with their choice of theater I consider to be between me and the politicians, and does not disrespect the fighting men and women in any way.

Well said, sir.  I respect our men and women in military service because they are the reason I can sit here today and say whatever I want without fear.  They do a dirty, nasty job that has to be done.  What angers me is when I see their sacrifice being abused in a manner I feel is unnecessary.  The first Gulf War was just and right, a dictator decided to expand his territory by force, and we went to repel him.  The actions in Afghanistan were just also.  A ruling regime harbored a terrorist network responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, and refused to turn those individuals over to a world court.  Is this current war in Iraq just and necessary?  Honestly, I don't know.  Yes, Saddam was an unfit ruler, who committed atrocities against his own people.  That's pretty much an undisputable fact.  But the sanctions that were put in place 12 years ago seemed to be doing their job.  These very same sanctions eventually forced Khaddafi to back down in Libya.  There are plenty of other dictators all around the world that are committing similar atrocities against their people, why do we not invade those countries?  

The perception I have is that this is a personal vendetta against Saddam by George W Bush.  Not that I can blame him, I'd be pretty eager myself to go after a man who was behind an assassination attempt on my father, too.  I believe that this administration truly did believe that Saddam had WMDs, but I also think that they didn't look at the facts very closely, instead seeing what they wanted to see.  

But what really got me with this war is the fact that we completely ignored the United Nations in this whole affair.  We, the United States, are supposed to be the champoins of democracy.  The United Nations is supposed to be the global democracy.  If we ignore the decisions of that global democracy anytime we choose, what example do we set for the world?  That it's okay to toss the UN anytime they say something you don't like?  

So yes, drewkaree, I "support" our troops.  I acknowledge that they have volunteered to fight, kill, and possibly die for our country.  I believe that military service is a noble and honorable career and lifestyle.  But, I do not support this war.  I do not agree with the reasons that were given to start this war.  I feel that the sacrifices our armed forces are making, and the losses they are suffering, are unnecessary.  However, now that we are embroiled in this conflict, I think we absolutely need to stay in Iraq and see this through to a proper and complete end.  The alternative would make it all too likely that Iraq would end up with a ruler that was worse than Saddam in many ways.  

Does that start to answer your question, Drewkaree?

[hyiu]

let me state my opinion again...

I support the troops... I support the men and women who is out there doing the dangerous and dirty work for us...

and yes, I'm not doing anything in particular to support my words now... "no... I did not volunteer my time... nor donate my money so far..."

Does that mean I don't care ?? I don't think so... Honestly, I do care about them... and wish them all to come home safe and sound and soon....

I think being a good citizen.. a good person... a good neighbour... and give support to friends and families who have their loved ones there is also a support...

also trying to live a normal life here is some kind of support... (at least thats what I believe they're fighting for.... so that we do not live in terror...)

and in my personal opinion.... in this way, I AM helping.... in a very indirect way.... in a very minimal way....

(let me state my status... I do not have direct friends or relatives who is serving in the military...)

I think in this case, what my view on the war, on politics, ... etc. do NOT matter.... and I do NOT want to discuss whether US should be in the war or not.... whether Bush has done the right thing or not... etc etc...

I think I have said more than enough on this...

God bless the troops...

[jcoleman]

A vote for Nader is not a vote against Bush.  And that is what everyone who disagrees with the most secretive and dishonest president (note that I did not capitalize) since Nixon should be doing.  Voting against Bush.  There is ONE candidate who can beat Bush in this election, and his name is Kerry.  Nader does not stand a chance in hell of beating Bush.  If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

Nader is not affiliating with any party; he is running as an independent.  The 5% rule only applies to candidates nominated by a registered political party.  He may very well get his five percent...but what if Kerry loses by 1% in your state, and you voted for Nader?  You have handed Bush your state FOR NOTHING.

I don't think Kerry is necessarily the best person for the job either (I voted for Clark in the Virginia primary)...but I can tell you who the WORST person for the job is: George Bush.  

Some good places to research why I believe this are

http://www.salon.com
http://www.tompaine.com
http://www.americanprogress.org

I personally know at least 5 people who are serving or have served in Iraq, and I have so much respect for them it's unreal.  I'm lucky to call one of them my best friend and best man.  My sister-in-law is a nurse at Landstuul.  Here's to all our citizens coming home safely.

Coleman

[SirPeale]

This November, vote "None Of The Above"

I'm going to start my own campaign about it.

[mmmPeanutButter]

If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

Anyways, I think Bush scares the crap out of me.  His right-wing religious adgenda is the wrong way to lead a country - no doubt.  But if I vote Kerry, I personally will be cheating what I believe in.

Above all, I think one of the real travesties in our political system is that people don't vote. Get out and vote!  (unless of course you are a member of the religious right... in that case, stay home!)  

[maraxle]

Above all, I think one of the real travesties in our political system is that people don't vote. Get out and vote!  (unless of course you are a member of the religious right... in that case, stay home!)  

I abstained from voting in the previous two elections due to my personal beef with the electoral college system.  However, this time I'm voting if only to be able to tell my European friends, "Well, I voted against that idiot.  Don't blame me."

[DrewKaree]

Menace and Abrannan, if I'm reading you both correctly, when you say you support the troops, what that means to you is that you acknowledge what it is that they are doing (things that you may or may not like, but could not or would not be willing to do yourself, correct?) and that you appreciate them for doing it in your place so that a draft hopefully wouldn't have to be done, possibly putting you in that situation.  

*edit*Abrannan, you did say something almost verbatim to my take on it.  To clarify then, "support" means your thanks for taking your place?  I'm trying to state what I inferred from your posts.  If I am incorrect, or if you feel there's some nuance missing from my simplified version, please fill it in.  

I appreciate your replies and I believe you were trying to be civil in them.  I know some of my opinion leaks out, as did some of yours, but you've demonstrated tact.  I do have some replies, but I don't wish to post them and possibly have our replies degenerate into name calling

Abrannan, it has begun to answer my question, but if I was off base in my interpretation, then it actually hasn't resulted in anything yet.  Let me know.

[abrannan]

Drewkaree, I think you've got the gist of what I was trying to say. I put the quotes around the word support in my line because I wanted to highlight that I still don't know what suppoorting our troops means to me.   As far as continuing the debate, I really try to avoid letting things degenerate, and would be more than happy to continue exchanging viewpoints and ideas in e-mail or PMs, so we don't muck up this thread too much.  I try to realize that I don't know everything, and that everything I do know is passed through, and colored by, the filter of my beliefs.  That's why you'll see a lot of "I feel", "I think", and "my perception is.." in my posts.  That's the problem with the written word, it's way too easy to read a different tone into the words than the person had in mind when they wrote them.  

My thanks to you for keeping the discussion civil as well.  That's one thing I really like about these boards.  The people here are, by and large, really level headed and reasonable about differences.  Even the most inflammatory folks here don't hold a candle to the general level of rudeness and thickheadedness (look ma, a new word!) found most places on the internet.  

[DrewKaree]

Yeah, that's what I mean.  That "I support our troops" is like this year's new buzzword or catchphrase.  Kinda like "paradigm" or "think outside the box" was in the past.  

I like to think in concrete terms, and I don't feel like I have a comfortable concept of what "support" means.  I can't readily identify something I do that screams "THIS is what support means" or that something someone else does is DEFINITELY not supporting our troops.  I know agreement or disagreement with what is going on is not support, rather, it is just an opinion of what is happening.    

I just think the phrase comes out knee-jerk reaction like whenever the subject comes up, and no one has really put any thought towards WHAT it means.  I believe if more folks did, the phrase would die off, as we put into more specific words what we mean.  

[SirPeale]

A vote for Nader is not a vote against Bush.  And that is what everyone who disagrees with the most secretive and dishonest president (note that I did not capitalize) since Nixon should be doing.  Voting against Bush.  There is ONE candidate who can beat Bush in this election, and his name is Kerry.  Nader does not stand a chance in hell of beating Bush.  If you vote for Nader, you are throwing away your vote and quite possibly throwing away democracy as we once knew it.  

So...pretty much what you're saying is don't vote for him, since there's not a chance of him winning?

If everyone has this opinion, then yes, he will never win.

Personally, I'm voting "none of the above" this coming election.  I hope others will too.

[abrannan]

Yeah, that's what I mean.  That "I support our troops" is like this year's new buzzword or catchphrase.  Kinda like "paradigm" or "think outside the box" was in the past.  

I like to think in concrete terms, and I don't feel like I have a comfortable concept of what "support" means.  I can't readily identify something I do that screams "THIS is what support means" or that something someone else does is DEFINITELY not supporting our troops.  I know agreement or disagreement with what is going on is not support, rather, it is just an opinion of what is happening.    

I just think the phrase comes out knee-jerk reaction like whenever the subject comes up, and no one has really put any thought towards WHAT it means.  I believe if more folks did, the phrase would die off, as we put into more specific words what we mean.  

That's sort of where I was going with my original rant...

[flampoo]

I'm a service member so I think I'm somewhat qualified to answer this question. Supporting the troops has nothing to do with political affiliation. As much as you'd like to think so, they're unrelated.
We're not asking that you vote for the person who will remove us from Iraq. That's not support. Support is saying thank you. Support is recognizing that you have the opportunity to thrive and make your own decisions and feel safe on your own soil because service members put their life on the line for that very right. Albeit a god-given right, it's a right that has to be defended.
Be grateful for a country that promotes humanitarianism. Take a deep look inside and ask yourself if you could do the same thing our troops are doing over there now. If you can't say yes, are you glad that someone else can? Shouldn't you be?

[DrewKaree]

Supporting the troops has nothing to do with political affiliation. As much as you'd like to think so, they're unrelated.

Well said.  I'd like everyone FOR the war to remember those that don't believe in this war may have a family member fighting and perhaps has died for our country.  It would be utter lunacy to say they didn't support at least THEIR troop member.  Your political affiliation is used to formulate your opinion of the war.

 

...you vote for the person who will remove us from Iraq. That's not support.

I really like that point.  I like the idea that some troops DO want to be offering this service for their country, even if they personally disagree with their commander-in-chief, and would continue to feel the same regardless of the figurehead.

Support is saying thank you. Support is recognizing that you have the opportunity to thrive and make your own decisions and feel safe on your own soil because service members put their life on the line for that very right. Albeit a god-given right, it's a right that has to be defended.

I hope the phrase "I support our troops" will be ousted from your vocabulary and "I thank our troops for the opportunity to thrive and make my own decisions and feel safe here at home" will take it's place.
Yeah, I can hear you saying "that's WAY too cumbersome, plus it just sounds silly".  If you actually DO "support our troops", and it's not just an empty phrase you throw out there so people don't think you're cruel and heartless, then doesn't it stand to reason that your show of "support" should be put into better, more descriptive words, lest someone dismiss your "catchphrase patriotism" as empty hollow words?

Think of the face of a soldier standing in front of you.  Which of the two do you think he would take more to heart?  What if he knew you personally opposed this war he just offered his life for?  Which of the two do you think he would more want to hear, and wouldn't he be more open to discuss/hear what you have to say if you were more concrete with your words to show what support means to you?  

I hope and pray someone decides to rid us of the current phrase going around and offer instead a phrase that has meaning.  Sure, it may be picked apart, but I'd like for someone to start saying what they mean, instead of something that may get them into trouble, because we were given the right to say things that might get us into trouble by soldiers long ago.  Let's start exercising that right, regardless of "party lines".  

As someone so eloquently stated it:

Be grateful for a country that promotes humanitarianism. Take a deep look inside and ask yourself if you could do the same thing our troops are doing over there now. If you can't say yes, are you glad that someone else can? Shouldn't you be?

Change your words so that they have meaning.  Please.

[Stingray]

Drey you make very valid points about the whole "support the troops" issue.

I'm personally opposed to the war. I do hope that no harm comes to to the troops, and do hope that they all are able to come home safe and as soon as possible.

-S

[maraxle]

How the hell could that florida fiasco happen in the most technologically advanced country in the world?

Florida is kind of like a penal colony, but instead of sending criminals there, we send old people.

[danny_galaga]

hehe. yeah, we have the gold coast in australia!
hey, i used to like the golden girls.

[fredster]

I just love it when people from OTHER countries try to tell the US what to do.  I don't understand why that happens, I guess everybody just loves to tell the US where it's gone wrong.

The US has the best equipped, best trained, and most dedicated Armed Force.  We don't use it lightly.  Our men in uniform have put their lives on the line when they are called, and that's the point of this thread.

If you support your troops, political ideology aside, then do something for one.  If you see a proud Soldier in a resturant, buy him lunch.  If you see one on the street, thank him/her for what they are doing.  That goes for all the troops, and the coalition forces too.  

They are doing what they are sworn to do.  They are honorable men and women that have committed their lives in the service of thier country.

I'm proud of them, all of them.

[mp2526]

As a former member of the Marine Corps.  I don't have a problem with people saying they support the troops even if they aren't doing anything tangible to prove the point.  Just knowing that when you get home from your duties you will not be chastized for decisions made that are out of your control is enough pay back for me.  While "support the troops" doesn't mean much to some, it means that we learned a lesson from Vietnam and realize that while the troups Volunteered to do their duty for their country, they have little control over where that takes them.

[Dartful Dodger]

I just love it when people from OTHER countries try to tell the US what to do.

Especially when they want us to do what's best for THEIR country.

[mp2526]

If you support your troops, political ideology aside, then do something for one.  If you see a proud Soldier in a resturant, buy him lunch.  If you see one on the street, thank him/her for what they are doing.  That goes for all the troops, and the coalition forces too.  

A simple handshake goes a long way.  I live in a somewhat liberal town that I wouldn't say hated the military, but didn';t really embrace it either.  It was just nice to know that after 9/11 people realized that just shaking my hand and saying thanks went a long way.

[danny_galaga]

Nuff said. You haven

[missioncontrol]

The best way to support the troops is to keep them in your prayers and wish them well. If you know a family member of one of our troops over there go out of your way to tell them you apriciate the work that they are doing. Also thank a vet for the freedom you have today.......

[DrewKaree]

You haven

[GGKoul]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

[maraxle]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

That depends on whether you're part of the electoral college or not.

[GGKoul]

If you don't vote... then don't complain afterwards.

That depends on whether you're part of the electoral college or not.

Not sure what the "electoral college" is...  but I'm Canadian, and in Canada, anyone over the age of 18 is able to vote.  And if someone chooses not the vote, then they shouldn't complain afterwards.

[danny_galaga]

Just had a thought today.

 IVE supported your troops!!

When I was in the US last year I made a conscious decision to give money to anyone who asked. One guy who asked was a veteran of the

[Jam161]

Hmmm I agree with maraxle,  there is alot of countries that dont like the USA.

For example (not all of us but definetly some of us) your neigbours to the north. We were criticized by your government when we didnt follow you with a short leash into Iraq.  

unrelated to the war

your government taxed the imported softwood lumber... nafta... the f and t in there stand for free trade..  

your not all as free as your think, you know of your patriot act, i believe you also have a second patriot act

Ive seen alot in the news of people getting in crap for saying things against bush, wheres the freedom of speech..

your government lets corporations play around with the supreme court, the riaa thing is a joke

the love it or leave it attidude is insane, as is all the people who blindly follow thier leader.

[mp2526]

your government taxed the imported softwood lumber... nafta... the f and t in there stand for free trade..  

That goes both ways.  I don't know how many times I've sent goods to Canada and have my Canadian customers pay an import duty.