Wiring Arcade VGA to Proton VM-290 monitor *Pictures Added*

[nipsmg]

Hey guys.

I got an ArcadeVGA and a breakout cable.  I also am using a Proton VM-290 "television monitor" (Presentation monitor) in my cabinet. It's got one set of composite, one BNC w/ 2 rca and one 9 pin RGB connector.  (same type as old 9 pin VGA/Serial etc).

I've been scouring the web trying to find information, and have tried unsuccessfully to contact the company to get the pinout information for the 9 pin port..   Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get this going?  If I wire it wrong, could I damage the monitor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


*edit*

Ok, I talked to a guy from a Proton service center who pulled the manual for me.

There are no board layouts in the manual, but there's a schematic that shows ONLY the 9 pin connection on the board (that presumably goes out to the 9 pin RGB connector) .  
The connector on the board itself goes:

Gnd Gnd Gnd INT B H G V R

He says he can't tell from the schematic tho which end of the connector would be which on the actual board.
Is there any way for me to find out which end is Gnd?

He said he guessed INT was an interrupt of some kind, but he wasn't sure what the hell it was for.

Now can anyone help?

--NipsMG

[nipsmg]

OK well how about this then?? Will I damage my monitor by arbtrarily testing the wires??

--NipsMG

[nipsmg]

*bump*

I hate bumping.. but is there ANY chance someone has the tinyest suggestion that could help?!
--NipsMG

[Warmachine]

Wish i could help you, your post makes mine look like a walk in the park.

[JasonF]

I hate bumping.. but is there ANY chance someone has the tinyest suggestion that could help?!
--NipsMG

I would feel comfortable with arbitrary testing if this were my monitor, and have done something similar when trying to determine which wires were which for a Sanyo EZV.  These are low voltage signals, so there's no component-destroying current levels involved.

If you examine the circuit board, then you should see that the three grounds that are next to each other will join together, and should connect to a large ground plane (bigger traces than other areas).  If you can't look at the circuit, use a continuity tester to see which pins are "shorted" together--these will be your grounds.

Oh, and INT probably stands for Intensity.

[nipsmg]

Yeah INT is intensity.  I'm guessing, for now, I should be leaving that pin alone .. I've been able to get a picture, and the colors are correct, but it's off center and doesn't look right.. I'm going to get a picture up here tomorrow and show you what I'm talking about.

--NipsMG

[delta88]

May be a silly question.. but if you are using a pres' monitor why not input VGA if it has it or s-vid/composite? going for that authentic feel? ill tekk yah, unless its brand new, most arcade games dont have very good picture

[nipsmg]

Delta:

It's a 29in "Television monitor".  It has composite/BNC, and RGB in. that's it.

I've been using composite, and it's TERRIBLE... Absolutely horrible.  I bought the arcade VGA to get a much better picture out of it.  Now if I could only figure out why.. Maybe once I get some images up here tonight
someone can help me diagnose.

--NipsMG

[Lance]

This information is probably too late for you but in case you didn't know there are DB15 to DB9 convertors for older monitors like this.  My local B&M even sells them.

My old 14" cga/ega/vga monitor has a 9 pin RGB input on the back and I use one of these converters so it can take a regular db15 vga cable.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/trianglecables-site/dbmaltodb9fe1.html

Wish I could help with your off center problem, are there any vertical/horz positioning controls either inside or outside on the monitor?

[nipsmg]

yeah but the problem is that that's going from a db15 VGA connector to a db9 VGA connector.  VGA connectors used to be 9 pin.  I've got a television monitor that APPARENTLY has a pinout with pin 1 blue, pin 2 green, pin 3 red. Which is kind of weird.   I don't think it's a standard VGA connector, but I'll try anything at this point.

When I hook up pin 1 (with a red green or blue signal from the card), I get a blue line rapidly going down the screen.
When I hook up pin 2, I get a aqua line going down the screen
When I hook up pin 3, I get a white line going down the screen.

This would tell me pin 1 is actually blue, pin 2 is green, pin 3 is red.

But I can't find ANY pinout listed on the web with this configuration, adn the closest thing IS 9 pin vga with pin1 red, pin2 green, pin3 blue.  

I meant to have images of what i've been able to get showing, but I didn't get a chance last night.. TONIGHT I definitely will, however. I'll also try the 9 to 15 pin adapter today.

--NipsMG

[nipsmg]

Well, here's what I've been able to get.  Can anyone diagnose a screen that looks like this?

http://www.gerety.net/Images/picture001.jpg
http://www.gerety.net/Images/picture002.jpg
http://www.gerety.net/Images/picture003.jpg
http://www.gerety.net/Images/picture004.jpg


--NipsMG.

[Silver]

Hmmm, not sure I can point out a remedy from the pics...  But your pin1=blue 2=green 3=red is ringing bells...

Am I guessing correctly that you are referring to pin1 as the "top left" pin as you look at the connector, with the longer strip (5 connections) on the top?

i.e.

1  2  3  4  5
  6  7  8  9

If I recall, (I've got a pres monitor with VGA, 9-pin RGB, S-vid input) the pinouts on my RGB are actually:

5  4  3  2  1
  9  8  7  6

This is as you look at the socket, with pin 5=Blue,4=green,3=red - which as it happens would be what you are getting excepting counting the pins the other way (if that makes sense!) I will hunt around and try and dig out a pin-out for this (no promises its the same as yours though!).

I also have a hunch this was described as a RGBI TTL 9-pin D-type (TTL being digital transitor-type logic or similar). I thought (anyone fill me in) that TTL was incompatible with VGA - but you can obviously get some picture output ok. Also - apologies for the random guessing here - VGA is 0.7V signals, whereas as TTL is up to 5V.

I'll post a pinout pic if I can find one....

[Silver]

Ok I've tracked down the pinout.

Looking at the female socket:

5  4  3  2  1
  9  8  7  6

1 - Ground
2 - N/C
3 - Red
4 - Green
5 - Blue
6 - N/C
7 - N/C
8 - Horizontal (or composite) sync (or even SyncOnGreen)
9 - Vertical sync

N/C is not connected, although I imagine pin 6 is Intensity (this agrees with old TTL CGA pinouts).

You could try wiring up as above (if you havn't already). Also do you have any other RGB source apart from the ArcadeVGA to establisth that your monitor actually works ok using the RGB input?

[nipsmg]

No, Unfortunately, no other rgb source.. Any suggestions?

I will DEFINITELy try the pinout you suggested today and let you know..
I really appreciate the help.

--NipsMG

[Silver]

Hmmm, well some DVD players give RGB out direct, or at least through a SCART socket - although this may be only in Europe (not sure where your based) and that would involve making up a new cable.

 You've obviouosly sussed the RGB so its all down to the syncs. Try twisting your H and V sync wires together and attaching that to the composite sync pin (crude but often good enough, I find). The way some of the text is broken up in the bios screen looks like the vertical sync has problems.

Let us know how it goes with H and V sync's seperate/combined....

[nipsmg]

Ok I looked at my wiring.  The only way I was able to get a picture at all that was stable, was by using the exact pinout you suggested.  I had it wired exactly like that.  I tried connecting both syncs to pin 9 and/or pin 8, and I get a rolling picture.
Picture:
http://www.gerety.net/Images/Syncs.jpg


1 meg AVI:


Any other suggestions?

Thanks again for your help..  Oh btw I'm in america,no SCART

--NipsMG

[Silver]

Ok, well it sounds like we've identified the correct pinouts if you can get a stable picture. What sort of result do you get connecting only the H or the V pins? If you get a stable pic with only 1 attached, does hooking up the other one make any difference?

I have a feeling that to get a good picture you may have to add a small converting circuit - my guess is that its a TTL input and as such is expecting 0 or 5V levels, although I would love someone else to to confirm this as I don't want you to waste time if I'm barking up the wrong tree. Googling for TTL VGA RGB gives a bunch of info and simple circuits so you could have a look to see if anything fits the bill. I will have a look round also and post anything helpful here....

I've never used an Arcade monitor myself - does anyone know what Voltage levels they normally use or ifthey are TTL types?

[nipsmg]

If I take off either sync,  I get a picture like I posted earlier "sync.jpg", non-stable picture, just rolling colored lines.

I'm going to forward this thread to Andy from Ultimarc in e-mail (in case he hasn'/t been checking it) to see if he has any suggestions as well.  I'll be out most of the day, but if anyone finds any info for me I'd appreciate it..  I'll try anything to get this up and running.. Spent too much time and effort to give up now.

Thanks again for all your help. -- Anyone else feel free to chime in  

--NipsMG

[AndyWarne]

That doesnt seem like the standard pinout for a 9-pin. I have some Barco TV (video wall) monitors and the pinout is this:

1 Red                  
2 Green                
3 Blue                  
4 Ground                
5 Ground                
6 not used                        
7 Intensity            
8 Horizontal Sync      
9 Vertical Sync        

You could try this. It is very unlikely that anything will be damaged if the connections are wrong. If the picture is dim, you might need to connect the Intensity pin to 5 volts.

[nipsmg]

it's not so much that the picture is dim, more that colors seem to be missing (as if I had started up windows in 16 color mode.. Evereything is UGLY), and I can barely see the XP bootup screen, NO white letters on bootup at all, I had to get into safe mode by hitting F8 repeatedly and knowing hitting down 3 times put me on "safe mode".

I'll try +5 to Intensity, but not sure it'll work that way.. I'll also try your suggested pinout and let you know.

--NipsMG

[JasonF]

It wouldn't be something simple, like the brightness or individual color intensities just need to be potted up a bit, would it?

[StephenH]

If the problem is in 16 color mode, try reinstalling the ArcadeVGA video drivers.  

Also, make sure that there is no inverter board (such as a 7404 chip or external op-amp circuit) connected between the computer and monitor, and that the monitor is not set for negative logic video.  This would be the case, if light colors are dark, and dark colors are light, and that the colors are all wrong (i.e. green -> Magenta for example).

[Silver]

Can anyone actually clear up whether the monitor is a TTL one or not? I initially thought it was not as I figured that sending a non-TTL signal (i.e. from the ArcadeVGA) would get absolutely nowhere with a tv expecting TTL.

@AndyWarne (or anyone who knows!)

If it has an Intensity pin requiring 5V does that mean it must a TTL monitor (i.e. the 5V is simply a Logic 1 to the monitor)? Or does it function in another manner. I'm not familar with Intensity connections (or TTL monitors for that matter)

 How are sync pules sent (encoded) for TTL monitors - I'm afraid I'm only familiar with analogue methods....

[nipsmg]

hmm.. and if it is a TTL monitor.. what can I do? Am I screwed now and forced to use Composite ? (YUCK!!!).. Is there a circuit I can build to get good display.  

Here's the results of the +5v to Intensity pin.

+5v to INT
http://www.gerety.net/Images/INT.jpg

NO +5v to INT
http://www.gerety.net/Images/noINT.jpg


As you can see, I get a slightly better picture, but it's still not clear.  Colors are missing and it's still off center (note the windows "Flag" in the upper right, or the letters, even though there's some blurryness.  (sorry bout that).

 

--NipsMG

[nipsmg]

OK and I'm pretty sure this should prove at least the red, green, and blue wires are ok.  Right now (from left to right) on the tv side of the connector, the wires are Blue Green Red.

When they're switched to Red, Green, Blue you get this:

http://www.gerety.net/Images/red.jpg


God my hands are shaky

--NipsMG

[nipsmg]

ok.. this sucks..

This is a post from the ultimarc forums:

You said the monitor has a intensity line.
This is a TTL RGB monitor, not analog. It will NOT work off that connector is that is the case.
What other connectors are on the monitor and do you have those pinouts?


BTW does the following match your pinouts?

CGA Color Graphics Adapter
Videotype: TTL, 16 colors.
AKA: IBM RGBI
A few months after the release of the MDA, the CGA adapter came out. It worked with an RGB monitor and worked off the text-mapped method, meaning it was capable of the pixel-by-pixel control needed for graphics. It could also do 16 colors, 4 at a time, on a 320 x 200 display. The pixels are quite large and the resolution was bad, but it could do graphics. CGA offered a high-resolution mode of 640 x 200, but then it could only do two colors. Besides its limitations, this card remained very common for quite a while. It had a couple annoyances, which were flicker and snow. By snow, I mean one would sometimes get random dots on the screen.

CGA uses a digital signal, referred to as TTL (Transistor-transistor Logic), for the transmission of its video signal. TTL is a signal that operates on a on or off state only, thus limiting the amount of displayable colors. Intensity bits are used to expand available colors up to four times the original amount. Commonly used in low resolution computers.


CGA Pinout
640x200, 15.7kHz, 60Hz
Pin 1 - Ground
Pin 2 - Ground
Pin 3 - Red
Pin 4 - Green
Pin 5 - Blue
Pin 6 - Green Intensity
Pin 7 - Blue Intensity
Pin 8 - Horizontal Sync
Pin 9 - Vertical Sync



Can anyone verify this?  If this is the case, I bought the arcadevga for nothing, unfortunately. :-/  would using the BNC connector instead of the Composite give me a better picture?  (it seems they're basically the same thing with a different connector.. although they're separated on the panel as Video1/ video 2 with different audio inputs)

This, unfortnately, would DEFINITELY explain my problem.
Being that i'm at 640x480 and 16 bit color.. and I'm seeing 640x200, 15.7khz, 16 colors

--NipsMG

[Silver]

Ah that does sound like bad news.... I was worried that the presence of the INT would signal TTL. But......

I would still love someone to clear up for me how sending an analogue RGB signal to a digital TTL input produces *anything* at all. A bit of research suggests that TTL level RGB inputs use signal lavels so that anything lower than 1V is considered to be black and anything more than 2.5V is considered to be 'full on'. If true, it means that a FULL vga signal would produce ONLY BLACK on a true TTL monitor. (I should point out here that I am assuming the ArcadeVGA outputs 0.7V RGB signals). I do not think your monitor is a simple TTL cga input.

The other possibility I am thinking is that it could be a dual input designed for anolgue RGB and TTL(?).

I have managed to track down a manual for a monitor very similar to mine here:

http://www.hantarex.co.uk/pdf/IDTV.pdf

I actually have an earlier version of this monitor, although the vast majority of the specs remain the same - I have exactly the same inputs/outputs. As you can see it has a 9-pin D-sub which they label as "RGBI TTL" on the pdf according to the pinout I posted previously. Also - perhaps encouraging for you - they clearly have no Intensity pin connected, they list it has N/C - not connected. Further down the page they also indicated that the input voltage for RGB on the 9-pin should be 0.7V, whereas the syncs seem to be 0.7-5V.

Having said all this, your monitor is obviously getting colours ok, and the syncs at least to a certain extent, but is still not happy. So not sure what the next best step is :-(

Oh, and using a BNC socket for composite will not make any difference (unless you actually have a dodgy connector on you other composite input causing the appalling quality.....)

[nipsmg]

*cries uncontrollably*  

I don't quite understand the whole vga - ttl converter.

From what I understand, you can only get 4 times the colors by altering the intensity.(4x16) or 64 colors total.. which isn't quite vga..

am I mistaken in that?

the TTL thing is disturbing.. It seems that nothing short of a chassis change could get me a good picture on this monitor.. I hopt that's not the case, because it was nearly impossible to get this thing in my small 1 bedroom apartment, and I don't ahve the room in here to get this monitor back out easily....  Hey, if I have to, I will, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it. :-/

--NipsMG

[Beley]

probably a shot in the dark but, look for a switch on( or inside) the monitor to switch between CGA and VGA, i used to have an old assed monitor with one.

as for getting a picture from a CGA monitor with a vga signal, i would guess that if a pixed is bright enough ( ie voltage on the pin is high enough)the monitor sees it as "on" eventhough its not all the way to 5v. hence the reason anyting dim is black

and interesting test would be to fire up a game that only uses a few colors, it should look about right. You will only be able to get 8 colors though without the intensity signal working

[dabone]

That switch on the old Amiga monitors is labeled digital / analog.


Good luck.


Later,
dabone

[nipsmg]

there's no switch for vga/cga on this monitor.  The mainboard on the monitor is attached by wired to a metal box that has the 9 pin rgb port on it.  this is screwed into the back panel and the 9 pin rgb connector is exposed.

So the general consensus is, I'm forced to use composite, correct.. no arcade vga for me?

--NipsMG