Switchres picking slightly incorrect resolution for some reason.

[konp]

So I'm slowly making my way through the setup of Groovymame and VMMaker/CRT_EmuDriver, and so far the results have been pretty damn promising. However, I'm having a few odd issues I don't seem to be able to figure out on my own.

Hardware is important so here's the list: The video card is a Radeon 1250 xpress (laptop), which is compatible and works a treat. The laptop screen doesn't conflict because... it doesn't have a screen, due to me being ham-handed and somehow cracking it, necessitating its total disconnection. I've got a VGA -> Scart cable going into an RCA (thomson) 21DG17EA (chassis number pending). Windows XP32, the CRT_Emudriver based on catalyst 9.3, and the latest (1.3c) VMMaker/ArcadeOSD. An odd thing about the TV is it totally lacks a horizontal width adjustment, either in the service menu, normal menu, or via a trimpot on the mainboard. It's got horizontal centering in the service menu, but not width. That said, I can futz with HBP/HFP settings on ArcadeOSD to sort that out.

Anyway, to the problem at hand - certain games (cps1 and cps2 is what I've noticed so far) run at their normal horizontal res with no changes - but switchres seems to think it's necessary to up the vertical from 224 to 240p. This is strange, because there is a modeline that matches what the resolution SHOULD be. The only other game I've caught it changing the res on is Mortal Kombat (and hardware-related games), but only from 399x253 -> 400x256, which is understandable.

So why's it doing that? It's not causing any tearing issues, or interfering with scanlines or anything, but as far as I've been able to determine it should be leaving the resolution untouched if it matches a valid modeline - and I've tested the modeline that matches it via ArcadeOSD and it works.

Also I'm hoping Calamity is around and willing to go through some more advanced tinkerings with me - adjusting horizontal and vertical timings to get as close to vertically centered for every game as I can. Right now I either have some at the right spot and the rest all over the place, or none of them where they should be.

[cools]

You're forgetting about the refresh rate. Width & height aren't the only thing going on.

Suggest reading this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131471

[konp]

You're forgetting about the refresh rate. Width & height aren't the only thing going on.

Suggest reading this: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131471

I think I need a better understanding of how TVs work before that makes more than the most rudimentary of sense to me... 

Guess I'm just trying to figure out if my "issue" is really just a non-issue caused by my lack of understanding of how this all works behind the scenes.

[cools]

I've been able to determine it should be leaving the resolution untouched if it matches a valid modeline - and I've tested the modeline that matches it via ArcadeOSD and it works.

Only if you're using static modelines (method 0 in vmmaker). VMMAKER.INI explains it a little better than I can.

[konp]

I've been able to determine it should be leaving the resolution untouched if it matches a valid modeline - and I've tested the modeline that matches it via ArcadeOSD and it works.

Only if you're using static modelines (method 0 in vmmaker). VMMAKER.INI explains it a little better than I can.

Pretty sure I'm not doing that. Should I be?

Also I should warn you now that I'm going to be asking a lot of "dumb" questions. I just want to make sure I've got all my bases covered and am doing things the best way.

[cyb]

Calamity will explain better than I ever could, but when it comes to CPS2, from what I understand, switchres will select 240 vertical resolution but groovymame will display the proper 224 lines of the cps2 resolution and the remaining 16 lines will just be black bars.

[Calamity]

Calamity will explain better than I ever could, but when it comes to CPS2, from what I understand, switchres will select 240 vertical resolution but groovymame will display the proper 224 lines of the cps2 resolution and the remaining 16 lines will just be black bars.

That's it, exactly.

If you want to progress with GM, it's important that you get familiar with its logs. When you create a log, notice if the resolution selected by GM is marked as [integ] rather than [fract]. In the first case it will do integer scaling.

In both of the cases pointed by konp (cps2 and mk) integer scaling is being used for sure. For cps2 GM will use 224 lines and leave the rest as black lines up and down. For mk it will leave the required borders too, so that you get a 1:1 map for all native pixels. No stretching will be applied in either case.

VMMaker applies some rounding to the native modes listed by MAME in order to keep the list within a sane length. It already counts with GM doing its thing right.

So in other words, either if MAME uses a 224p vs 240p to show a native 224p game, the output video signal will be *exactly* the same. For this reason, 224p resolutions are totally redundant if you just intend to use GM.

[Calamity]

Also I'm hoping Calamity is around and willing to go through some more advanced tinkerings with me - adjusting horizontal and vertical timings to get as close to vertically centered for every game as I can. Right now I either have some at the right spot and the rest all over the place, or none of them where they should be.

Sure, of course. Just remind these kind of universal geometry adjustments with TVs don't work as well as they do with arcade monitors, especially regarding vertical centering, it can be a bit frustrating. This is due to TVs reacting differently when they think it's a PAL or a NTSC signal. Because of this, new versions of GM allow you to enter a raw custom modeline, adjusted by you manually through ArcadeOSD, for the situations where using general adjustments through crt_ranges is unsuccessful I'll show you the process, although I warn you it's a lot of work because you need to create per-game adjustments.

[konp]

Also I'm hoping Calamity is around and willing to go through some more advanced tinkerings with me - adjusting horizontal and vertical timings to get as close to vertically centered for every game as I can. Right now I either have some at the right spot and the rest all over the place, or none of them where they should be.

Sure, of course. Just remind these kind of universal geometry adjustments with TVs don't work as well as they do with arcade monitors, especially regarding vertical centering, it can be a bit frustrating. This is due to TVs reacting differently when they think it's a PAL or a NTSC signal. Because of this, new versions of GM allow you to enter a raw custom modeline, adjusted by you manually through ArcadeOSD, for the situations where using general adjustments through crt_ranges is unsuccessful I'll show you the process, although I warn you it's a lot of work because you need to create per-game adjustments.

Thank you, I really appreciate the help. That explanation about the resolution makes sense too.

As for the TV adjustments, I went through a thread you did a while back and tried to follow the instructions as close as possible. I got a positive result out of it, but it still needs a bit of refinement. The tv lacking any kind of h-width adjustment is a bit odd, but I was able to get it horizontally centred with porch adjustments. Vertical is where it gets a bit tricky.

[Calamity]

Well, if you manage to find a consistent pattern, there are chances to resolve it with some crt_range lines. Say for instance that you notice that the vertical shift depends on the refresh rate. Then you could separate the range in several subranges each with a different vertical centering.

Now if you can't find a pattern, then you need to adjust each game manually. The process will be more automatic at some point, but by now it would be like this:

1 - Launch a game. Say it's vertically shifted. On exit, GM pastes the modeline used into the clipboard.
2 - Open notepad. Press CTRL+V. You'll recover the last modeline.
3 - Now launch ArcadeOSD. Select the proper custom (dummy) mode and set full screen on. In order to know which mode you need to select, check the modeline you have in notepad: you need to select the one which width x height @ refresh matches the modeline.
4 - Note that the modeline in ArcadeOSD won't be the same one that GM was using. So enter the Edit menu, and start copying the values from the modeline in notepad to the proper cells into ArcadeOSD. Then you'll get the same modeline you had in GroovyMAME.
5 - Now adjust its geometry as desired.
6 - Once adjusted, copy the values back to notepad. When you finish, edit the line and add the "modeline " prefix at the beginning, in lowercase.
7 - Finally, put that line inside a game specific .ini file.

(it's easier than it sounds but still some work).

[konp]

Well, if you manage to find a consistent pattern, there are chances to resolve it with some crt_range lines. Say for instance that you notice that the vertical shift depends on the refresh rate. Then you could separate the range in several subranges each with a different vertical centering.

Now if you can't find a pattern, then you need to adjust each game manually. The process will be more automatic at some point, but by now it would be like this:

1 - Launch a game. Say it's vertically shifted. On exit, GM pastes the modeline used into the clipboard.
2 - Open notepad. Press CTRL+V. You'll recover the last modeline.
3 - Now launch ArcadeOSD. Select the proper custom (dummy) mode and set full screen on. In order to know which mode you need to select, check the modeline you have in notepad: you need to select the one which width x height @ refresh matches the modeline.
4 - Note that the modeline in ArcadeOSD won't be the same one that GM was using. So enter the Edit menu, and start copying the values from the modeline in notepad to the proper cells into ArcadeOSD. Then you'll get the same modeline you had in GroovyMAME.
5 - Now adjust its geometry as desired.
6 - Once adjusted, copy the values back to notepad. When you finish, edit the line and add the "modeline " prefix at the beginning, in lowercase.
7 - Finally, put that line inside a game specific .ini file.

(it's easier than it sounds but still some work).

That all sounds pretty straightforward, thank you for detailing each step. Logically I could set up a main modeline that works with most of the games I play, with some custom ones in ini files for the ones that don't work well with the main one.

[Paradroid]

The tv lacking any kind of h-width adjustment is a bit odd, but I was able to get it horizontally centred with porch adjustments.

It's not that unusual for there to be no width control. I have found many TVs don't have a width adjustment. Usually the smaller, scaled down models don't have as many adjustments. Larger sets tend to have more control over geometry. Perhaps there is more that can go wrong with a larger tube or maybe they're the more expensive premium models so the manufacturer makes them more configurable.

[konp]

The tv lacking any kind of h-width adjustment is a bit odd, but I was able to get it horizontally centred with porch adjustments.

It's not that unusual for there to be no width control. I have found many TVs don't have a width adjustment. Usually the smaller, scaled down models don't have as many adjustments. Larger sets tend to have more control over geometry. Perhaps there is more that can go wrong with a larger tube or maybe they're the more expensive premium models so the manufacturer makes them more configurable.

Well there's a version of this chassis for the bigger versions of the TV with something called an "east west module" on it that has trimpots relating to the horizontal geometry. So I'd wager you're right in that it's not something you see on smaller units.

Hey Calamity - in your experienced opinion, what resolution (or resolutions) should I be attempting to center horizontally and vertically? Which one (or pair, if I need to use more than one) will give the best generic result and leave me only having to make custom ini lines for a handful of games? Also, what should I adjust first, the geometry of the service menu or the h/v porches?

[Calamity]

Hey Calamity - in your experienced opinion, what resolution (or resolutions) should I be attempting to center horizontally and vertically? Which one (or pair, if I need to use more than one) will give the best generic result and leave me only having to make custom ini lines for a handful of games? Also, what should I adjust first, the geometry of the service menu or the h/v porches?

In order to get the horizontal values, the wider the resolution the more accurate results you'll get. What's important is to find if the results are consistent or not. If they are not consistent, it's probably because the TV is adjusting itself, then there's not much we can do. Sometimes it may be hard to judge whether it's the TV adjusting itself or rather it's a granularity issue affecting our own modelines. Some experience is necessary to tell the difference. Using a high dotclock_min value (in mame.ini) may help bypassing the granularity issues, making the horizontal centering of games more consistent.

Regarding the vertical centering, you usually want to separate the resolutions by height, say 240p, 248p, 256p. Then you need to find out if for all 240p modes, you're seeing the same vertical centering, or instead it varies depending on the refresh rate.

[konp]

Hey Calamity - in your experienced opinion, what resolution (or resolutions) should I be attempting to center horizontally and vertically? Which one (or pair, if I need to use more than one) will give the best generic result and leave me only having to make custom ini lines for a handful of games? Also, what should I adjust first, the geometry of the service menu or the h/v porches?

In order to get the horizontal values, the wider the resolution the more accurate results you'll get. What's important is to find if the results are consistent or not. If they are not consistent, it's probably because the TV is adjusting itself, then there's not much we can do. Sometimes it may be hard to judge whether it's the TV adjusting itself or rather it's a granularity issue affecting our own modelines. Some experience is necessary to tell the difference. Using a high dotclock_min value (in mame.ini) may help bypassing the granularity issues, making the horizontal centering of games more consistent.

Regarding the vertical centering, you usually want to separate the resolutions by height, say 240p, 248p, 256p. Then you need to find out if for all 240p modes, you're seeing the same vertical centering, or instead it varies depending on the refresh rate.

Alright, I will start tackling that tomorrow (it's friday night here atm). You've given me a good place to start, thanks again.

[konp]

Ok so it looks like the TV might make adjustments based on the refresh rate. I've tried a handful of resolutions with matching verticals but differing refresh rates and the results are pointing in that direction. However the differences aren't huge, although they're most definitely present.

So where to go from here? 

[Sledge]

Build a cabinet, rip the screen out the TV, get a new chassis from Jomac etc

But i'm guessing that you may not have the room for a cabinet, which is why you're using a TV...

[konp]

Build a cabinet, rip the screen out the TV, get a new chassis from Jomac etc

But i'm guessing that you may not have the room for a cabinet, which is why you're using a TV...

Where the hell did you get that idea from? I've already got 2 cabinets, and there's no reason to get a new chassis when the current one has RGB via SCART input, and all I need to do is tweak some software settings on the PC driving it. I made this thread to learn more about how groovymame/crt_emudriver interfaces with the display hardware, not on how to build a cabinet.

[Calamity]

Ok so it looks like the TV might make adjustments based on the refresh rate. I've tried a handful of resolutions with matching verticals but differing refresh rates and the results are pointing in that direction. However the differences aren't huge, although they're most definitely present.

What about the horizontal centering? Does the picture get shifted in some way with different refresh rates?

[konp]

Ok so it looks like the TV might make adjustments based on the refresh rate. I've tried a handful of resolutions with matching verticals but differing refresh rates and the results are pointing in that direction. However the differences aren't huge, although they're most definitely present.

What about the horizontal centering? Does the picture get shifted in some way with different refresh rates?

Horizontally, no, not that I could tell. I made alterations to the refresh rates of several modes and it didnt change where the picture sat horizontally, as far as I saw. If there's a surefire way to know (test x modeline against y modeline or somesuch) I'll go do that and tell you what happens.

[Calamity]

Ok then. Are you able to center the modes vertically through ArcadeOSD? Is the vertical shift consistent across different vertical resolutions that share the same refresh (e.g 57Hz)?

[konp]

Ok then. Are you able to center the modes vertically through ArcadeOSD? Is the vertical shift consistent across different vertical resolutions that share the same refresh (e.g 57Hz)?

Yes, and as far as I can determine, yes. I tried some at 60, some at 57 and some at 54 and all bar one of them (a 54 one that I had previously mucked with so it probably isn't reliable) were consistent. Vertical res's from 224 up to 288, various horizontals.

[Calamity]

So you could probably split your current crt_range into several subranges based on the refresh rate. Have you already made a custom range with the right horizontal centering? (asking this to use it as a base)

[konp]

So you could probably split your current crt_range into several subranges based on the refresh rate. Have you already made a custom range with the right horizontal centering? (asking this to use it as a base)

It'd probably be easier to just go back to the default arcade_15 preset and start again from there, as I made some adjustments to the custom range based on that thread from 2012 - I figured even if the settings weren't correct for my unit, they'd at least teach me a few things.

[Calamity]

It'd probably be easier to just go back to the default arcade_15 preset and start again from there, as I made some adjustments to the custom range based on that thread from 2012 - I figured even if the settings weren't correct for my unit, they'd at least teach me a few things.

Ok but if you have made some horizontal adjustments to that preset it won't harm to use them.

[konp]

It'd probably be easier to just go back to the default arcade_15 preset and start again from there, as I made some adjustments to the custom range based on that thread from 2012 - I figured even if the settings weren't correct for my unit, they'd at least teach me a few things.

Ok but if you have made some horizontal adjustments to that preset it won't harm to use them.

That's a fair point. I could regenerate the modelines from that custom string to use the horizontal settings and eliminate any tinkering I've done since then, would that work?

[Calamity]

Yes, take the arcade_15 string and replace the horizontal values with your custom ones, then test it and paste it here so we can start.

[konp]

Current custom modeline is

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.060, 0.180, 0.910, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Not sure if any of that is correct or if I'm way off the mark - if you're prepared to go through each step with me, I'm totally happy to do that. You can call the shots.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of room to move for these values as well, because the TV was tolerant of vertical refresh rates up to about 65, from what I could determine.

I've also adjusted the geometry in the service menu using a calibration pattern on a DVD (through a DVD player on the composite port) so that, at least for "normal" signals, everything is centered correctly.

[Calamity]

Current custom modeline is

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.060, 0.180, 0.910, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Not sure if any of that is correct or if I'm way off the mark - if you're prepared to go through each step with me, I'm totally happy to do that. You can call the shots.

Ok so I replaced the vertical values with the stock ones for you:

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Well if you want to reach somewhere with this you'll actually need to understand what you do and take the steps by yourself. My previous  experience on blind guiding users was frustrating because we didn't reach anywhere after some days, and usually when things started to make sense from my end they either get tired or stop writting or whatever My purpose with those threads was to teach people the meaning of each individual value in the crt_range string so they could learn their way through creating custom presets, if that was not achieved then all was pointless because it is not possible to adjust a monitor from the distance. Fortunately recent versions of GroovyMAME allow you to use custom modelines per-game, so you can always resort to that brute force approach even without understanding the values.

That said, you can try something like this:

crt_range0 15625-16419, 49.50-57.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
crt_range1 15625-16419, 57.10-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

I made a random subdivision of the vertical refresh range just to show you the way, you'll need to figure out how many subdivisions are required. Then for each subdivisions, you'll need to modify the vertical values (in red). Just play with the first and the third ones (porches), leave the second one alone (sync pulse). By changing their relative size you'll move the picture up or down.

[konp]

Current custom modeline is

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.060, 0.180, 0.910, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Not sure if any of that is correct or if I'm way off the mark - if you're prepared to go through each step with me, I'm totally happy to do that. You can call the shots.

Ok so I replaced the vertical values with the stock ones for you:

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Well if you want to reach somewhere with this you'll actually need to understand what you do and take the steps by yourself. My previous  experience on blind guiding users was frustrating because we didn't reach anywhere after some days, and usually when things started to make sense from my end they either get tired or stop writting or whatever My purpose with those threads was to teach people the meaning of each individual value in the crt_range string so they could learn their way through creating custom presets, if that was not achieved then all was pointless because it is not possible to adjust a monitor from the distance. Fortunately recent versions of GroovyMAME allow you to use custom modelines per-game, so you can always resort to that brute force approach even without understanding the values.

That said, you can try something like this:

crt_range0 15625-16419, 49.50-57.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576
crt_range1 15625-16419, 57.10-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

I made a random subdivision of the vertical refresh range just to show you the way, you'll need to figure out how many subdivisions are required. Then for each subdivisions, you'll need to modify the vertical values (in red). Just play with the first and the third ones (porches), leave the second one alone (sync pulse). By changing their relative size you'll move the picture up or down.

Yeah, I understand the frustration of trying to fix things by remote - I used to troubleshoot consumer ADSL over the phone. That's a nightmare, I'll tell you what.

I have a very rudimentary understanding of what the numbers mean. Vertical and horizontal refresh are obvious. The back and front porches describe where the beams "start" and "finish", correct? So changing their values changes the width and height of the image depending on whether you're adjusting H or V respectively.

The things I DON'T quite grasp are the dotclock and how the aforementioned values work in concert with one another.

So if you were to say, par exemple, "adjust H front to X, H back to Y" I would be able to do that no problem. But if you followed that with "Why does that effect <insert related non-horizontal value here>?" I wouldn't be able to tell you.

[Sledge]

Current custom modeline is

15625-16419, 49.50-61.00, 3.640, 4.670, 9.870, 0.060, 0.180, 0.910, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Not sure if any of that is correct or if I'm way off the mark - if you're prepared to go through each step with me, I'm totally happy to do that. You can call the shots.

My previous  experience on blind guiding users was frustrating because we didn't reach anywhere after some days, and usually when things started to make sense from my end they either get tired or stop writting or whatever My purpose with those threads was to teach people the meaning of each individual value in the crt_range string so they could learn their way through creating custom presets, if that was not achieved then all was pointless because it is not possible to adjust a monitor from the distance.

Trouble being, some of us need pictures to understand what's happening
You've helped me to set mine up almost perfectly.. but i haven't got a clue about it, as i just don't understand any of it..

[konp]

Trouble being, some of us need pictures to understand what's happening
You've helped me to set mine up almost perfectly.. but i haven't got a clue about it, as i just don't understand any of it..

Well, he lucked out here. I've got a brain geared for troubleshooting and diagnostics, which means I'm pretty good at making intuitive leaps with new information. Good problem solving abilities.

With that said, all of that ability is useless if I don't have a foundation to work from.

Calamity, if it makes you feel any better, I'm not gonna up and quit on you or get frustrated and give up or anything. And I can provide you as much or as little information as you need whenever you need it, so just ask. This is just a problem of me not knowing enough, that's all.

[konp]

Ok, I've regenerated the lines and changed the string to what you gave me, Cat. I've taken a few pictures of what it's resulted in:

http://imgur.com/a/r5gfF#0

Apologies for the blown highlights, it was tough getting decent pics. As you can see, some of the resolutions (like for SF2) are almost perfect. They require very minor tweaking to fill the left-hand and top edges. The desktop @ 640x480/60i is pushed right and down a bit as well as being a touch too big, but it's not as bad as it was.

Mortal Kombat (400x256) is too tall vertically, but the top edge is at the top edge of the screen where it should be. There's quite a bit missing at the bottom edge there, due to it being "outside" the screen. It's also slightly too narrow horizontally.

The MAME game select screen appears that way at first run. Not sure what res/refresh that's at, but I know it changes to the last game picked when said game is exited.

The arcadeOSD screens are just a collection of various so you can see how they fare geometry wise.

All in all I think it's a big step in the right direction. I can tinker with it for a while, see what happens. If you've got any major tips or suggestions, let me know.

[Calamity]

So what are the crt_range lines currently in use?

[Calamity]

The things I DON'T quite grasp are the dotclock and how the aforementioned values work in concert with one another.

To understand the dotclock, if you have a modeline:

modeline "320x224" 6.64 320 336 368 424 224 234 237 261 -hsync -vsync

Hfreq = 6.64 * 1000000 / 424  = 15660 Hz
Vfreq = Hfreq / 261 = 60.00 Hz

Now be aware a crt_range is NOT a modeline. Think of it as a bunch of conditions that any modeline must meet. So you can create infinite modelines by using a single crt_range, and all them will meet the conditions specified by the crt_range.

So if you take the modeline above, the horizontal values are: 320 336 368 424. These values are resolution based. The horizontal values in a crt_range are time based.

To calculate the horizontal values of this modeline in time units:

336 - 320 = 16 -> 16 / 6.64 = 2.41 us (h front porch)
368 - 336 = 32 -> 32 / 6.64 = 4.82 us (h sync pulse)
424 - 368 = 56 -> 56 / 6.64 = 8.43 us (h back porch)

[konp]

So what are the crt_range lines currently in use?

The only CRT range line I used for those pictures is the single one with the default horizontal values you posted after I gave you the custom line I'd been using.

Thanks for the crash course on dotclocks and whatnot, that's actually starting to make sense now.

Question: With that range line I'm using, why is it that nearly everything except Mortal Kombat was more or less centered?