Sony Trinitron Flat CRT Install - SCART/S-Video/Video Card Question

[Kevo!]

MAN! Building an arcade takes a lot of knowledge....

Here goes!

I am planning on using a 27" Sony Trinitron https://docs.sony.com/release/specs/KD27FS170_mksp.pdf as an arcade monitor.

I was going with s-video, but I heard a lot of good things regarding SCART.

- Can I use SCART considering I have an NTSC TV?
- What type of video card is best? Will be playing games from Pac-Man to Soul Caliber III or later.


Thanks for the help!!

[konp]

SCART is infinitely better than S-video, as it sends your TV a pure RGB signal. S-video, on the other hand, sends it a signal composed of Y (luminance) and C (chrominance), which is only one step above composite (the yellow RCA plug). You can't run custom resolutions over S-video as it's "locked" to 480i.

SCART allows you to drive your TV at arcade-accurate resolutions with a bit of software tinkering, provided it's a CRT that doesn't upsample or have support for HD formats.

Go SCART and make a VGA -> SCART breakout cable. There's tons of guides on that and they're easy to make if you've got basic soldering skills.

[Kevo!]

Kool! Appreciate the input Konp. Now my Sony TV does not have an SCART input. How would I plug this up to the TV?

Also, whats your opinion on video cards?

Thanks!!

[Dungeonsdeep]

OP, your best bet is to use Component. It won't be as good as RGB/SCART. But better than Svideo.

This is an essential thread to read regarding TVs: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.0.html


Basically what it says, is that to get RGB quality, you will need to purchase a VGA>Component transcoder....around $200.

That thread covers every Video Card that would be compatible with what you want to do!

Please post pictures of your installation process, I would love to see what you end up doing, as I may be going a similar route.

[konp]

Basically what it says, is that to get RGB quality, you will need to purchase a VGA>Component transcoder....around $200.

It'd be cheaper for him to make his own VGA to SCART cable (it's easy), and then get a SCART -> YPrPb (component) transcoder that only changes the colourspace and doesn't affect the signal resolution. They're about $50 depending on where you look, and the SCART cable will be cheap to put together.

[Kevo!]

Appreciate the help: I found a good tutorial on making a VGA --> SCART cable.

http://scarthunter.blogspot.com/2012/04/how-to-make-vga-to-scart-cable.html

[rCadeGaming]

OP, your best bet is to use Component. It won't be as good as RGB/SCART. But better than Svideo.

Component is not a lower quality signal than RGB, the two just handle colorspace differently.  Technically, RGB has an advantage in that it uses uncompressed color whereas YPbPr component typically uses 4:2:2 chroma subsampling, but this difference is not going be detectable to the naked eye when viewing 15kHz arcade resolutions on a CRT.  Colorspace transcoding between RGB and component doesn't introduce any distinguishable reduction in quality, at least in our application.

It'd be cheaper for him to make his own VGA to SCART cable (it's easy), and then get a SCART -> YPrPb (component) transcoder that only changes the colourspace and doesn't affect the signal resolution. They're about $50 depending on where you look, and the SCART cable will be cheap to put together.

Yes, a CVS287 (or clone) that is explained in the thread Dungeonsdeep linked to. 

Appreciate the help: I found a good tutorial on making a VGA --> SCART cable.

That's a decent one, but it's overkill for this.  That schematic is designed for an actual SCART TV, so it has extra wiring for audio, switching voltages, and a more complex sync combiner circuit, none of which is needed for a simple SCART to component transcoder.  Check out the instruction for making a VGA to SCART cable for use with a CVS287 in the thread Dungeonsdeep linked to, it will save you some work.

[Dungeonsdeep]

It'd be cheaper for him to make his own VGA to SCART cable (it's easy), and then get a SCART -> YPrPb (component) transcoder that only changes the colourspace and doesn't affect the signal resolution. They're about $50 depending on where you look, and the SCART cable will be cheap to put together.

True, If his TV has SCART. I just always assume everyone is American LOL. We don't have SCART. (My girlfriend's family is from Ireland, her 18 year old cousin is visiting us right now and I asked if she could find me an old tube TV with SCART....the confused look she gave me... )

OP, your best bet is to use Component. It won't be as good as RGB/SCART. But better than Svideo.

Component is not a lower quality signal than RGB, the two just handle colorspace differently.  Technically, RGB has an advantage in that it uses uncompressed color whereas YPbPr component typically uses 4:2:2 chroma subsampling, but this difference is not going be detectable to the naked eye when viewing 15kHz arcade resolutions on a CRT.  Colorspace transcoding between RGB and component doesn't introduce any distinguishable reduction in quality, at least in our application.

So wait...I am confused. If component looks comparable to RGB, then why use the transcoder? rCade, can you provide a screenshot of a game running RGB>Component, and a screen of it running RGB>Transcoder>component.

I am still confused on this whole aspect and would really like to figure it out, as I am getting closer to making a purchase for my cab, and had finally settled on an old LCD monitor - for both ease of use and price. But now I am second guessing.

[rCadeGaming]

So wait...I am confused. If component looks comparable to RGB, then why use the transcoder?

Because TV's in the US don't have RGB inputs. 

The current situation is this: RGB is the only output format available from PC's for native resolution MAME.  If you have an RGB SCART TV or an arcade monitor, you can feed that RGB to those displays.  Standard definition American TV's don't have RGB inputs.  Good ones have component inputs though, so if we transcode the RGB signal to component, we can then display it.

rCade, can you provide a screenshot of a game running RGB>Component, and a screen of it running RGB>Transcoder>component.

Not sure what the distinction is supposed to be between "RGB>Component" and "RGB>Transcoder>component."  You can't get component from RGB without a transcoder.  In any case, there are pictures of my TV display RGB transcoded to component here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129501.0.html

[rCadeGaming]

IMHO, in terms of MAME or any other 15kHz gaming application, LCD's are still not close to matching the picture quality of a CRT.  15kHz CRT's also have no input lag, unlike any LCD.  Most people aren't as picky as I am about those things though.

LCD's have a few things going for them:

-Common availability of new models.  Although I would available that good, used standard def CRT TV's are readily available in most places, and cheaper too.  See Craigslist in the US.  4:3 LCD's are harder to find too.

-Compatibility with any modern hardware.  To use a 15kHz CRT with a PC, you need Windows XP or 7, and a CRT_Emudriver-compatible graphics card.  LCD's will work with just about anything these days.

-Simplicity.  There is no argument on this one.  The final product can be just as simple to use, but making use of the potential of a CRT takes a lot of research and setup time to get to that point.  Using an LCD's takes very little.  All you have to do is get a good one with low input lag, and configure a handful of MAME settings to minimize lag on that end.

To anyone getting an LCD, at least be educated on input lag, and get a monitor which is actually suitable for gaming.

http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

[Dungeonsdeep]

I'm an idiot, this whole time I was confusing RGB with VGA. So previously, when I was talking about RGB, what I really meant to say was VGA.

-Simplicity.  There is no argument on this one.  The final product can be just as simple to use, but making use of the potential of a CRT takes a lot of research and setup time to get to that point.  Using an LCD's takes very little.  All you have to do is get a good one with low input lag, and configure a handful of MAME settings to minimize lag on that end.

To anyone getting an LCD, at least be educated on input lag, and get a monitor which is actually suitable for gaming.

http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/

Thank you for the links... Curious, what settings in MAME will reduce lag? Thanks.

[rCadeGaming]

The v-sync related settings are the most important.  Never use triple buffering, as it can add multiple frames by itself.  The best v-sync method is to match native refresh and use syncrefresh.  In setups where that isn't possible, you can either live with tearing or use waitvsync for a minor hit.

Using a keyboard encoder has also been confirmed to reduce important lag over a gamepad encoder, due to MAME's use of the RawInput API only with keyboards.

Those last two apply to all MAME builds.  GroovyMAME also has some specialized features to help further, such as frame_delay.  This is the thread to follow for minimum lag:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=133194.0

[Dungeonsdeep]

The v-sync related settings are the most important.  Never use triple buffering, as it can add multiple frames by itself.  The best v-sync method is to match native refresh and use syncrefresh.  In setups where that isn't possible, you can either live with tearing or use waitvsync for a minor hit.

What kind of setup would that not be possible?



If using an Ipac do I have to be concerned about lag?

[rCadeGaming]

What kind of setup would that not be possible?

Any time when you're locked to 60Hz.  It could be with a graphics card that isn't capable of custom refresh rates, a monitor that can't properly display them (LCD's), or when using some kind of scan converter.

If using an Ipac do I have to be concerned about lag?

No, an I-PAC is a keyboard encoder, and a decent one, so it shouldn't cause any lag per say.  It does have a debouncing method I don't care for, but you'll only notice it if you have super-fast fingers, or you get into hardware-based turbo setups.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,134531.msg1389408.html#msg1389408

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138817.msg1434704.html#msg1434704

The important thing here though, is that you won't have to worry about lag from the encoder, but you need to scrutinize every part of the chain to minimize it as much as possible.  This includes the PC, your OS, your MAME build and settings, and your display.

[Dungeonsdeep]

Wow, thank you so much for all the great info rCade, very helpful stuff I really appreciate it!