Legendary Atari 2600 E.T. Landfill Excavated

[Anpanman]

The legend is true.  They found it!

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/landfill-excavation-unearths-years-of-crushed-atari-treasure/

[yotsuya]

Ha ha! Thanks for the link!

[SavannahLion]

Not sure why, but it makes me squirm a bit knowing Microsoft is involved. Makes it less like an archeological dig.

[pbj]

Friend of mine went but bailed before anything interesting was dug up.

Color me skeptical until we see a million cartridges.  I've never believed this story.

[Howard_Casto]

We will never see a million.  Scrounging through 30 year old trash is a bit of work and the city only gave them a single day to poke around.  They are looking for anything unique as there are rumored prototypes in that mess somewhere.

[sharpfork]

If I dig around in my multiple boxes of console crap, I'd likely find two copies of E.T.

[ark_ader]

I wonder if the plastics, circuit boards and paper are recyclable.  Maybe goldmine in 50 years?

[ChadTower]

It's amazing how things stay preserved in that environment.  In New England you would only find blank plastic.  Everything else would have been composted long ago.  Even the metals would likely be gone after 30 years underground.

Note that they're not really doing this to find cool stuff.  They're doing it to make a film.  The single day of work might actually be all they need to accomplish their goals. 

[SavannahLion]

I was thinking about this last night. Yeah, that's what especially bothers me, they're doing it just to make a film. An "exclusive" xbox one at that. I find that rather insulting. I for one would love to know if any prototypes were discarded and would like to see if they're recoverable. The place is no longer used? Let the true Atari fans have at it. They'll dig it all up proper.

[DaveMMR]

Never understood the doubts behind the claim of the dumping. Atari was notoriously bad at overproducing products (12 millions Pac-Man carts for 10 million consoles). It seemed like a given all that overstock had to go somewhere. Didn't need Microsoft's documentary crew to prove it for us.

But yeah, it'll be cool if they turn up a prototype or something rare. But more than likely, they're going to be finding the physical example of why businesses need to understand supply vs. demand.

What's even funnier is Atari turned around and churned out another run of E.T. carts in 1986 anyway.

[ChadTower]

The place is no longer used? Let the true Atari fans have at it. They'll dig it all up proper.

The site is contaminated and there were months of impact analyses that had to be done before they were allowed to disturb the ground.  I seriously doubt they were ever going to be allowed anty real excavation.

[Howard_Casto]

Never understood the doubts behind the claim of the dumping. Atari was notoriously bad at overproducing products (12 millions Pac-Man carts for 10 million consoles). It seemed like a given all that overstock had to go somewhere. Didn't need Microsoft's documentary crew to prove it for us.

I guess some people don't know the story of this documentary then.  It was started by an independent company, they ran out of money, M$ sponsored them.  Originally they weren't going to have anything to do with it.  So no this isn't a M$ publicity stunt.  Don't get me wrong, they are milking it for all it's worth though.

I don't think any sane person would doubt the dumping, but the "legend" has grown a little over the years.  I would say that it's reasonable that thousands, , maybe even 100,000 or more ET carts were dumped there, but the millions that some claim is unlikely.  The damned things kept popping up in forgotten warehouses for one, and also that particular landfill isn't that big.  If they did dump a million carts or more there, it would have an "E.T. layer" of sediment where for about a foot down anywhere you dug, you'd run into E.T.  carts.  But yeah, Atari dumped a lot of their crap there back in the day, it's not a myth but a well known, well documented fact. 

[RandyT]

I don't think any sane person would doubt the dumping, but the "legend" has grown a little over the years.  I would say that it's reasonable that thousands, , maybe even 100,000 or more ET carts were dumped there, but the millions that some claim is unlikely.  The damned things kept popping up in forgotten warehouses for one, and also that particular landfill isn't that big.  If they did dump a million carts or more there, it would have an "E.T. layer" of sediment where for about a foot down anywhere you dug, you'd run into E.T.  carts.  But yeah, Atari dumped a lot of their crap there back in the day, it's not a myth but a well known, well documented fact.

I agree.  I'm skeptical of the numbers as well.  A couple of E.T. carts in a 30 year old landfill, doesn't exactly prove anything.  I have a lot more than that in my "dupes" box.  I want to see a few consecutive buckets come up peppered with them, but so far nothing like that has been shown.

[pbj]

The components in those carts were worth actual money back then.

You know how when they find some Sumerian site and it's nothing but tax records?

Same here.

[DaveMMR]

I guess some people don't know the story of this documentary then.  It was started by an independent company, they ran out of money, M$ sponsored them.  Originally they weren't going to have anything to do with it.  So no this isn't a M$ publicity stunt.  Don't get me wrong, they are milking it for all it's worth though.

Interesting. Didn't realize Microsoft didn't start the documentary. Full disclosure: didn't read up on it that much as it really didn't seem that interesting when I first read about it. Atari threw overstock in the garbage, they're going to find it! Yay?

Yeah, it could turn around in a second if they found something that never hit store shelves (even if, likely, it's crushed and broken - though I read that a couple of those E.T. cards were operational.) But finding the same games everyone had in their collection (and today's collectors can't even give away) does not a compelling documentary make. Though I'm sure they'll stick stories about how E.T. is the "worst game ever" and how it "caused the crash". It's no masterpiece but that game gets picked on more than it deserves.

Yeah, I'm complaining about a documentary that hasn't even been released yet. I'm just being cranky. Don't mind me. 

[ark_ader]

I always remembered my old book of "1001 games for 1K", but with the exception of that halo game made recently for the 2600, there was not a lot you could do in 4K.  Obviously with the tape recorder expanders things improved, but ET wasn't that bad for 5 weeks of programming and design.

Pacman was fun to play as was Donkey Kong, but at $59.99 a cartridge to a twelve year old, you expected a game to last.  Demon Attack and Pitfall (I loved TESB by Parker bros.) being the exception.

I still play Demon Attack on my Galaxy Note2 while waiting in line at the grocery store. 

[Howard_Casto]

The actual quality of the game ET wasn't what killed Atari, but the business practices that got them to that point did and it's very much a symbol of it.  They spend a then, unheard of, sum of money on the license to the film, only to use it to produce the shoddily kludged together mess that was ET at the last minute.  They then went on to produce more copies of the game than there were consoles in existence, even knowing full well that the game was rushed.  After they realized their blunder, instead of trying to recoup their losses by recycling the physical carts into different games, they threw out the majority of them. 

So yeah ET was the death rattle of Atari, it just wasn't for the reasons everyone claims.

The other thing that killed it and the video game industry in general was Activision's court victory over Atari that basically made it legal for third parties to produce carts for a console without the parent companies consent.  The 2600 didn't have any protection to speak of (a feature that EVERY console afterwards would have to combat the court decision) so any idgit claiming to be a programmer would make "games" for the system.  I put games in quotes because most of them weren't even playable.  Well these games quickly fell to the bargain bin and it was hard for makers of quality games to compete with retail prices when mom and dad could walk into a toy store and literally find a barrel of the discount "games" for a couple bucks a piece. 

[RandyT]

The other thing that killed it and the video game industry in general was Activision's court victory over Atari that basically made it legal for third parties to produce carts for a console without the parent companies consent.  The 2600 didn't have any protection to speak of (a feature that EVERY console afterwards would have to combat the court decision) so any idgit claiming to be a programmer would make "games" for the system.  I put games in quotes because most of them weren't even playable.  Well these games quickly fell to the bargain bin and it was hard for makers of quality games to compete with retail prices when mom and dad could walk into a toy store and literally find a barrel of the discount "games" for a couple bucks a piece.

I don't dispute that this was much to blame, but I'm not so sure it had the effect you are describing.  To state that this was the case, is to say that the free market system, which works in just about every other area,  somehow couldn't work in the case of the 2600.  If Junior wanted "Pac-Man" and mom brought home "Name this Game" and "Dishaster" because she could get both for less, Junior would likely be more than a bit upset.   The crash, IMHO, was more about the fact that, as popular as the early consoles were, they didn't have a user base capable of supporting so many publishers.  Consider the following (arranged chronologically);

source

Atari 2600 / VCS (Atari, 1977, 1985) - 30 million units

---------

Nintendo Entertainment System (Nintendo, 1983, 1985) - 61.91 million units

----------

Mega Drive / Genesis (Sega, 1988, 1989) - 39 million units

Super Nintendo Entertainment System (Nintendo, 1990) - 49.10 million units

---------

PlayStation (Sony, 1994) - 104.25 million units

Nintendo 64 (Nintendo, 1996) - 32.93 million units

---------

PlayStation 2 (Sony, 2000) - 153.68 million units

---------

XBox 360 (Microsoft, 2005) - 65.80 million units

Wii (Nintendo, 2006) - 95.25 million units

PlayStation 3 (Sony, 2006) - 62.11 million units

This paints a pretty clear picture as to the increase in the console market size over the course of history, indicating a gradual sociological shift to where we find ourselves today.  Combine the increase in publishers, sometimes rushed and shoddy offerings from even the large houses, an aging system at the end of it's capabilities and a jaded and often non-savvy consumer who jumped in for the novelty of it, and the crash was inevitable.  Obviously, there were still those who were "hardcore" gamers (you know who you are) and continued to crave more, but the numbers just weren't there to sustain the bloated commercial landscape of that time period.  The NES was the console to capture a new generation of gamers, and whether Nintendo limited competition solely to fatten their bottom line or not, it had a very positive effect on market sustainability.  Their actions, followed by similar actions from other console makers, are very likely what prevented another crash, allowing for the market to continue to grow.

[Howard_Casto]

An install base is important if you are talking in terms of raw units, but it's fairly irrelevant if we are talking about sales percentages and attachment rates.  The earlier systems had fewer resources put into the games, so there was more profit per title... you didn't need as large an install base because you didn't need to sell nearly as many copies.   A 2600 title would have one employee working on it, maybe 2.  A nes cart usually had a team of 5 to 10 in the early days, a couple of dozen or more later on.  Fast-forward to today and it isn't unusual to have a team of over 200 working on a title, not including play testers and out-sourcing.  I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see the correlation you are seeing at all. 

You are forgetting that in the late early 80's / late 70's video games we considered toys, there was virtually no coverage on video games like there is now (you basically had the mis-leading box art to go by, the sole reason that early nes titles used the actual pixel art and had a mandatory 3 snap shots on the back for a first few years after the crash) and kids weren't as spoiled as they are now. 

Long story short you got what your parents brought home and you were thankful for it and both you and your parents were basically clueless as to what game you were getting until you actually popped it in. 

And actually yes, I AM claiming that the free market system doesn't work for video games.  It's a very strange market with monopolies, prices set by the manufacturers, controlled product and a counter-intuitive consumer base where there is a good chance the person who purchases a title might not be buying it for themselves.  I mean you can go back and look at history, the economy rarely has an impact on the video game market or it responds contradictory to every single market out there, including other forms of media.

One of the main reasons the modern video game industry doesn't go under is BECAUSE it isn't a free market.  Nintendo releases a new game.  You'll pay 60 bucks for it.  The free market doesn't determine this price, Nintendo does.  If any store tries to sell it for less, Nintendo won't sell them any future titles, so everyone has to conform.  Every single solitary publisher sets it up this way as well.  Only after a certain period of time are stores allowed to discount the games and even then they may have to get permission from the publisher. 

People wonder why the PC is a second class citizen when it comes to games these days, basically getting console ports and indie titles only.  The reason is almost exclusively the fault of the steam sale.  The market is no longer fixed and thus it can't sustain itself in a viable fashion. 

You need to decide for yourself if this is a good thing or not but it has played a major factor in the downfall of pc gaming and if the big three ever stop fixing the console market, we'll see a similar fallout. 

[pbj]

TL;DR

[yotsuya]

If Junior wanted "Pac-Man" and mom brought home "Name this Game" and "Dishaster" because she could get both for less, Junior would likely be more than a bit upset.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

My favorite time for the Atari was towards the end, when we could get games at a mall kiosk for $5, and then shortly later for $0.50 at the local drugstore. We got a lot of good games that way.

[DaveMMR]

Yeah Howard and Randy hit it on the head. Just to add that besides Atari's missteps (and there were a lot - come to think of it, they were pretty bad at the home console game post-Bushnell) was the rise of home computers. Why even bother with a console when you can get the same games for your 8-bit computer plus dozens of more complex titles as well? Really, it was the perfect storm of a whole bunch of things going on - E.T. just gets the blame.

That said,  E.T. - even without the fixes they posted on the internet - is not that bad of a game. You can finish it and if you recognize the quirks, you can avoid them (i.e. weird pixel-perfect collision detection.) Also, play on variation 3 until you get the hang of it. It's no Keystone Kapers or Yars Revenge but it's nowhere near "worst game ever" either.

[yotsuya]

That said,  E.T. - even without the fixes they posted on the internet - is not that bad of a game. You can finish it and if you recognize the quirks, you can avoid them (i.e. weird pixel-perfect collision detection.) Also, play on variation 3 until you get the hang of it. It's no Keystone Kapers or Yars Revenge but it's nowhere near "worst game ever" either.

Agreed. I used to enjoy the game BITD because I could definitely "beat" it.

[DaveMMR]

If Junior wanted "Pac-Man" and mom brought home "Name this Game" and "Dishaster" because she could get both for less, Junior would likely be more than a bit upset.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

My favorite time for the Atari was towards the end, when we could get games at a mall kiosk for $5, and then shortly later for $0.50 at the local drugstore. We got a lot of good games that way.

Yeah, what barely gets mentioned is that the crash was initially GREAT for the consumer in many respects. Suddenly we were swimming in carts for next-to-nothing. Christmas 1983 was pretty great for my Colecovision library.  The long term downside is that we lost many great companies (Imagic, the aforementioned Coleco, and... ummm.. Quaker Oat's US Games.)

[yotsuya]

Yeah, as a 10 year old, I didn't understand "The Crash" at the time. I just knew that I could get RealSports Baseball for $2.50, Kangaroo for $5, and Chopper Command for $0.50 freaking cents. I also remember taking birthday money and buying a new Atari (I wore out my old one) and a Q-Bert game at Lionel's Playworld for $50. Good times.

And don't forget The "M" Network. Cool name.

[pbj]

If it were 1982, I'd be getting 50 cent games and soaking in a hot tub with my soulmate....

[RandyT]

That's the thing that I think Howard might not be fully considering.  There were excellent 3rd party publishers, many of which where pushing the limits of the system further than even Atari.  I remember seeing Atari's later titles (BattleZone, MsPac) and thinking to myself, "it's about damn time, Atari". 

Also, while very early in the life of the 2600, there was little to find in the way of reviews, it certainly was not that way by the end.  No self-respecting game aficionado was without a subscription to one of the videogame magazines of the time, or at least picked one up from the newstand from time to time.  In fact, it could be argued that by the time these magazines were in full-swing, the market started tanking, possibly implying a connection.  People became more selective about what they bought, leaving the "stinkers" on the shelf.  When there is a mass production of hardware (very expensive at the time) and the game flopped, it took more than a few companies down financially.

[DaveMMR]

And don't forget The "M" Network. Cool name.

Oh yeah, that was Mattel and yeah we lost their gaming contributions as well.

Heh - call me dense but I only just realized that M Network carts were just Intellivision carts with an adapter snapped-on at the end (and, of course, different innards.) They're really annoying to store on a shelf because  of that weird shape.

That's the thing that I think Howard might not be fully considering.  There were excellent 3rd party publishers, many of which where pushing the limits of the system further than even Atari.  I remember seeing Atari's later titles (BattleZone, MsPac) and thinking to myself, "it's about damn time, Atari". 

Also, while very early in the life of the 2600, there was little to find in the way of reviews, it certainly was not that way by the end.  No self-respecting game aficionado was without a subscription to one of the videogame magazines of the time, or at least picked one up from the newstand from time to time.  In fact, it could be argued that by the time these magazines were in full-swing, the market started tanking, possibly implying a connection.  People became more selective about what they bought, leaving the "stinkers" on the shelf.  When there is a mass production of hardware (very expensive at the time) and the game flopped, it took more than a few companies down financially.

There were great third parties. Activision still represents the top quality VCS carts, as does Imagic. And Parker Brothers had a lot of good titles.  And 20th Century Fox's Fantastic Voyage is still a great little shooter (M*A*S*H ain't too bad either, and Porky's is amusing enough if not particularly great.)

I think what kills it though were the dozens of publishers cashing-in on a fad.  Mystique, Data Age, the aforementioned US Gold (Chase the Chuck Wagon), Johnson & Johnson (Tooth Protectors), etc. 

Though it could be said that there weren't so many "aficionados" than there were just regular, casual  consumers who were buying hardware at the height of the frenzy but had no interest in subscribing to magazines to discern the good from the bad. The dedicated gamers' numbers weren't enough to support the glut of product - and they moved onto the home computers anyway (which had more choices and easier to obtain software - *cough* pirate *cough*.)

[pbj]

Fun fact, the Nintendo Wii is the modern incarnation of the 1983 video game crash.

[RandyT]

I think what kills it though were the dozens of publishers cashing-in on a fad.  Mystique, Data Age, the aforementioned US Gold (Chase the Chuck Wagon), Johnson & Johnson (Tooth Protectors), etc. 

Though it could be said that there weren't so many "aficionados" than there were just regular, casual  consumers who were buying hardware at the height of the frenzy but had no interest in subscribing to magazines to discern the good from the bad. The dedicated gamers' numbers weren't enough to support the glut of product - and they moved onto the home computers anyway (which had more choices and easier to obtain software - *cough* pirate *cough*.)

Agreed.  But even the casual consumers probably knew one of "us" who were a bit more tuned into the offerings available, and listened.

Fun fact, the Nintendo Wii is the modern incarnation of the 1983 video game crash.

I decided not to go there

[pbj]

Come on, they managed to sell 100 million units that are hated by 95 million of their owners.

Go there.

 

[DaveMMR]

Fun fact, the Nintendo Wii is the modern incarnation of the 1983 video game crash.

There is talk of a modern-day crash but for completely different reasons. A lot of the things present in the first crash aren't being repeated by the Nintendo. There is shovelware but's that's been true of a lot of consoles. And it's not like every half-assed Wii game you find on the endcaps of your local Kohl's or Old Navy is being ported to nine different platforms. For the most part, Nintendo would only be hurting themselves - there's still an industry outside and separate of Redmond's hardware. (And they're actually able to afford major missteps, financially speaking.)

[RandyT]

Again, I agree.  But there are a few important parallels in as far as mass adoption based on the novelty, by the casual consumer who quickly became jaded and got "burned" with shovelware.  If the Wii was the only game in town, history would likely have repeated itself.  Fortunately, it wasn't.

[yotsuya]

I thought there were a lot of hidden gems in the later years, games I loved playing that weren't "AAA Titles" but great timewasters. Games like Air Raiders, Frogs N Flies, Starmaster. Activision and Imagic games were the best. Atlantis, Pitfall, Subquest, even Skiing...

What I think hurt Atari towards the end was a number of games you couldn't just pick up and figure out. My cousin bought Swordquest and we were all excited, but it quickly got tossed aside when we didn't understand what the hell it was we were supposed to do. Raiders of the Lost Ark was the same way.

[DaveMMR]

As I prepare for my flogging I will say this - I think the Wii actually helped PREVENT another crash.  Hear me out....

By the mid-2000's, there was really little difference between Xbox/Xbox360 and Playstation 2/3 offerings. If Nintendo released similar hardware, it would have been just too many choices again (save for the handful of exclusives) without any standout difference between the platforms leading to consumer apathy (one of the causes of 83's crash.)  Giving the public an inexpensive novelty as an alternative got people buying games who previously were not. And don't forget, Nintendo did make a profit on those consoles and those shovelware games are cheaper to produce anyway (discs, not expensive carts.) 

Yeah, long-term, N's reputation suffered. But their decision at the time wasn't a bad one.

[pbj]

Yeah, good points.  We're already seeing extreme discounts on the Xbox One and PS4.  Clearly these things aren't selling at the pace hoped for.

I think too many people get the casual games on their phones for anyone to be seriously interested in a console doing the same.  WiiU is just about to surpass the Atari Jaguar on my regretted purchase list.

[joeH]

I don't think any sane person would doubt the dumping, but the "legend" has grown a little over the years.  I would say that it's reasonable that thousands, , maybe even 100,000 or more ET carts were dumped there, but the millions that some claim is unlikely.  The damned things kept popping up in forgotten warehouses for one, and also that particular landfill isn't that big.  If they did dump a million carts or more there, it would have an "E.T. layer" of sediment where for about a foot down anywhere you dug, you'd run into E.T.  carts.  But yeah, Atari dumped a lot of their crap there back in the day, it's not a myth but a well known, well documented fact.

I agree.  I'm skeptical of the numbers as well.  A couple of E.T. carts in a 30 year old landfill, doesn't exactly prove anything.  I have a lot more than that in my "dupes" box.  I want to see a few consecutive buckets come up peppered with them, but so far nothing like that has been shown.

I went to the dig.  I live about an hour away, so I figured why not kill and afternoon.  I saw them scoop up 8 bucket-fulls.  Each scoop had a ton of boxes, games, etc... in them.  Definitely where Atari dumped them. 

As for the numbers, USA Today ran an article yesterday speaking to the former Atari manager from El Paso at the time.  762,000 cartridges were dumped.  Not exactly the "millions" that people claim, and definitely not only E.T..  I saw many different games in the rubble from Centipede, to Circus Atari, Berserk...

I spoke to the director for a few minutes.  They did the "pre-dig" the day before.  Apparently the first truckloads were just dumped and were supposed to be guarded by security.  Security never showed up, and the site was being looted by kids.  Subsequent truckloads were paved over with concrete.  The concrete was located, and they chose a spot "near" the concrete in order to find relics from the first truckloads which were not encased in concrete. 

I've uploaded pics in the 2600 forum thread over at atariage if anyone is interested.

[ChadTower]

I totally believe that the site would be looted by kids.  My friends and I used to loot the crap out of the dumpsters behind Parker Bros in Salem, MA.  Tons and tons of QA failed toys, game pieces, etc.  You can do a whole lot of fun things with 25,000 Monopoly hotels or 200 deformed Nerf balls.

[pbj]

There is next to nothing in Alamogordo.  That would be some supremely single minded children to make a trek out there for some smashed up cartridges.

[joeH]

There is next to nothing in Alamogordo.  That would be some supremely single minded children to make a trek out there for some smashed up cartridges.

The digsite was less than a mile from the main road through town.  It wouldn't have been a trek to get some games.

[RandyT]

Based on the photos so far, I'm getting the feeling that the myth has been debunked.  It's obviously a site with a bunch of Atari scrap, but E.T. seems to have received a bum rap.

[ChadTower]

And possibly during April vacation, too.

[pbj]

Anyone that thinks a 10 year old kid is going to take a casual trip to Alamogordo has clearly never been to Alamogordo.

 

[pbj]

Here are the pics my friend snapped.  He said there were Atari parts just laying out in the dirt at the site.







Apparently it was very dusty.



He got a pic with the gamemaker, too.


 

[yotsuya]

He got a pic with the gamemaker, too.


 

The dude on the left looks like someone who'd hang out with PBJ.

[eds1275]

I was thinking about this last night. Yeah, that's what especially bothers me, they're doing it just to make a film. An "exclusive" xbox one at that.

and 0.18 days after it is released, it will be all over the internet!

[shmokes]

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

[northerngames]

Other then some game geek thing I am lost on what the big deal here even is.

are we all supposed to be shocked if they find that a cd company's garbage is in the mix too while digging and also come across over a million copies of milli vinili or what ever in the hell they were called? 

plus unearthing a 100,000+ toxic laced whatevers is not going to increase the standard value of either E.T. or milli today 

[ChadTower]

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

I don't get why people love the Kardashians so much, either, but clearly they do.  If it's news in enough places then a lot of people must care.

[pbj]

Meh, it's a funny story that's plausible enough to be true.  ET was a weird game that most didn't like.  Not really anything else to it than that.

[SavannahLion]

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

I don't get why people love the Kardashians so much, either, but clearly they do.  If it's news in enough places then a lot of people must care.

Why are the Kardashians rich and famous again? While we're at it, why are Oprah and Martha Stewert so rich and famous too?

Seriously, I don't get it. What was it they did to get their wealth?  By doing crappy shows...?

[pbj]

You may not care for Martha Stewart or Oprah, but to doubt their business acumen is foolish.  I don't get the Kardashian thing either but people eat it up so whatever.  The sex tape was enjoyable enough.

[SavannahLion]

You're right. I don't care for them but I think you're missing my question. What is/was it they did when starting out? Where did they come from? Everyone knows where Paris Hilton got her money, Daddy Warbucks. Stewart as a model, yeah I get that. But she didn't seem to be that popular back when, there are practically no photos of her. Doesn't $50/hr for a college model seem a little excessive when there is virtually nothing notable from that time period? If she was that hot you would think her image would be archived everywhere.

[ark_ader]

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

I don't get why people love the Kardashians so much, either, but clearly they do.  If it's news in enough places then a lot of people must care.

Why are the Kardashians rich and famous again? While we're at it, why are Oprah and Martha Stewert so rich and famous too?

Seriously, I don't get it. What was it they did to get their wealth?  By doing crappy shows...?

Hard work and sacrifice.

[northerngames]

for the Kardashian's it was T&A I always thought 

personally I dont think any are all that.

for martha and oprah I leave no comment other then convict and panther

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

I don't get why people love the Kardashians so much, either, but clearly they do.  If it's news in enough places then a lot of people must care.

Why are the Kardashians rich and famous again? While we're at it, why are Oprah and Martha Stewert so rich and famous too?

Seriously, I don't get it. What was it they did to get their wealth?  By doing crappy shows...?

[SavannahLion]

I kept seeing headlines and pics about this. I don't get why it is newsworthy or mythworthy that a company would discard product that couldn't be sold rather than continuing to warehouse it.

I don't get why people love the Kardashians so much, either, but clearly they do.  If it's news in enough places then a lot of people must care.

Why are the Kardashians rich and famous again? While we're at it, why are Oprah and Martha Stewert so rich and famous too?

Seriously, I don't get it. What was it they did to get their wealth?  By doing crappy shows...?

Hard work and sacrifice.

For Oprah... maybe. For the Kardashians

[shmokes]

I understand Martha and Oprah fine. Gossip, advice, whatever. But this is just unsaleable inventory being thrown out. I mean, what else would Atari do with it? To me this is like if a myth sprung up about a clothing company stopping production of Hawaii print shirts when they went out of style. And then someone making a documentary film that shows that, yes, indeed, the clothing manufacturer really did stop producing Hawaii print shirts when they went out of style.

Am I missing something? Why is this story interesting (to anyone)?

[RandyT]

Am I missing something? Why is this story interesting (to anyone)?

The overproduction, and subsequent burial of huge numbers of E.T. cartridges was often held up as the prime example of poor business decisions which led to the crash.  In other words, a mediocre game which Atari thought they could foist on consumers in huge numbers, almost exclusively due to the licensing of the well-known movie franchise.  It was surmised that Atari's resources took a major hit from the massive over production, and caused it damage from which it never fully recovered.

The question of interest is how true any of the above really is.  Was it really a monumental mistake, or is it just urban legend?  They are looking for evidence to support a very popular story, which is often repeated, but has had only heresay to back it up.

[ark_ader]

Now I know where all those 99c carts that was offered in Kmart and Woolworths went to. 

I was going to include Gemco, but that is a little before your time. 

[DaveMMR]

Am I missing something? Why is this story interesting (to anyone)?

You know, the surrounding story of the rise and fall of Atari (and all the other "also-rans") actually is very interesting. The problem is, by itself, the whole landfill find isn't all that exciting without the whole back story behind it. Unfortunately, it's not something you can flesh out in a quick blog post or newspaper article.

[shmokes]

In other words, a mediocre game which Atari thought they could foist on consumers in huge numbers, almost exclusively due to the licensing of the well-known movie franchise.

This is . . . like . . . practically the definition of all licensed products, though. Especially with videogames. Surely this can't be the concept people are trying to prove.

I mean, there's no question about whether Atari thought they could just cash in on the E.T. license without actually making a worthy game. The game speaks for itself. Does anybody actually question that Atari produced huge numbers based on the extraordinarily popular E.T. license? We KNOW that it, in fact, did not sell well.

So . . . like . . . of course there was a ton of useless inventory. Of course, with no prospect of buyers, it was disposed rather than warehoused.

I'm talking like I know all this, though I'm surmising most of it. But, like, if I'm not right, maybe THAT would be a story. The story people seem to be trying to prove strikes me as the most obvious and uninteresting possible scenario.

[RandyT]

This is . . . like . . . practically the definition of all licensed products, though. Especially with videogames. Surely this can't be the concept people are trying to prove.

I mean, there's no question about whether Atari thought they could just cash in on the E.T. license without actually making a worthy game. The game speaks for itself. Does anybody actually question that Atari produced huge numbers based on the extraordinarily popular E.T. license? We KNOW that it, in fact, did not sell well.

So . . . like . . . of course there was a ton of useless inventory. Of course, with no prospect of buyers, it was disposed rather than warehoused.

I'm talking like I know all this, though I'm surmising most of it. But, like, if I'm not right, maybe THAT would be a story. The story people seem to be trying to prove strikes me as the most obvious and uninteresting possible scenario.

You (well, and scores of others who have "surmised" the same things) are exactly the reason why this is being done.  It is a controversy that has been going on for decades. 

I also reject your assertion that "practically all licensed products" are sub-par.  TRON was a movie license and most, if not all, of the games it spawned were very good.  The arcade game was iconic and ground breaking for it's time.  While the list of "great" licensed titles is short, very few adaptations were at the level of disregard for the consumer as E.T.  It was rushed, and put into production in a buggy and barely playable state.  A good chunk of the available (expensive for the time) memory, was used up by a title screen image, which added nothing to the game.  It was a lesson to all developers of how not to handle a popular license.  But I'll re-iterate:  it was blamed as a major contributor to the downfall of the biggest videogame company of the era.  The interest in the story is finding proof, in the way of "truckloads" of expensive to produce game carts having been landfilled.

If you haven't already, you should check out the wiki.  It paints a clearer picture of the significance than what I can post here from my personal memories of the time.  But in the end, if you don't find interesting, an "archaeological" dig which could possibly better define the history related to the great crash, then move along....nothing for you to see here.

[DaveMMR]

This is . . . like . . . practically the definition of all licensed products, though. Especially with videogames. Surely this can't be the concept people are trying to prove.

E.T. can be considered the quintessential example of problems with licensed products. But again, the reason for Atari's downfall has less to do with the game and more with a combination of inexperience and hubris. Basically, one Warner executive remarked that he could put ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in a cartridge and sell it. With that mindset they spent WAY TOO MUCH money to get the E.T. with the actual game play a minor concern. And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

Truth be told, even if E.T. was a great game, Atari would have still found themselves in financial problems. E.T. was a bestseller for the 82 Holiday Season but trends dictated that consumers were buying less video games overall (partially attributed to the falling prices of home computers and also the stigma of video gaming being a 'fad' that's run its course*.) Atari did not adjust expectations to match those tends. There was just nothing else to do with all those extra carts and, up until now, the whole landfill business was a strong rumor that's now been verified - the symbol of Atari's sharp downfall.

*Also, the quality of games overall, even prior to E.T., didn't help consumer confidence either, especially when shelf space was overcrowded with way too many fly-by-night publishers churning out hastily made titles to cash-in.

[ChadTower]

I understand Martha and Oprah fine. Gossip, advice, whatever. But this is just unsaleable inventory being thrown out. I mean, what else would Atari do with it? To me this is like if a myth sprung up about a clothing company stopping production of Hawaii print shirts when they went out of style. And then someone making a documentary film that shows that, yes, indeed, the clothing manufacturer really did stop producing Hawaii print shirts when they went out of style.

Am I missing something? Why is this story interesting (to anyone)?

It would be reasonable if, three decades later, people found those shirts to be highly collectible and still wore them.

[RandyT]

And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

This sounds way dumber than it actually is.  In their aforementioned hubris, they expected system adoption to follow and surpass the numbers of the cartridges.  I.e. they expected the licensed titles to be "system sellers".  It was dumb for them to bank on these titles doing that, based on only the licenses, but that's apparently what they did.

[ChadTower]

That would be a killer marketing slogan.

Atari - Dumber Than It Actually Is

[DaveMMR]

And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

This sounds way dumber than it actually is.  In their aforementioned hubris, they expected system adoption to follow and surpass the numbers of the cartridges.  I.e. they expected the licensed titles to be "system sellers".  It was dumb for them to bank on these titles doing that, based on only the licenses, but that's apparently what they did.

Yeah, that was the method to their madness (plus some executive saying that they figured some people may want a second copy of Pac-Man for their summer home, paraphrasing a quote I read in a book.) In all fairness, there was little precedence - the industry was quite young. But it was a very expensive mistake and I don't think any publisher since then has ever assumed a 100% (let alone 120%) sell-through.

[yotsuya]

And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

This sounds way dumber than it actually is.  In their aforementioned hubris, they expected system adoption to follow and surpass the numbers of the cartridges.  I.e. they expected the licensed titles to be "system sellers".  It was dumb for them to bank on these titles doing that, based on only the licenses, but that's apparently what they did.

Yeah, that was the method to their madness (plus some executive saying that they figured some people may want a second copy of Pac-Man for their summer home, paraphrasing a quote I read in a book.) In all fairness, there was little precedence - the industry was quite young. But it was a very expensive mistake and I don't think any publisher since then has ever assumed a 100% (let alone 120%) sell-through.

Just out of curiousity, but I wonder if the Sears-branded carts counted towards cartridge figures. I remember my cousin's copy looked different than mine, and it was because his was a Sears Tele-Games copy.

[ChadTower]

Was there a Telegames branded E.T.?  I have owned thousands of 2600 games and have never seen one.

[yotsuya]

Don't think E.T. ever was, but I know Pac-Man was.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I definitely have had many Telegames Pac-Mans.  Now that I think about it the silver labeled Atari games might not have been licensed to Sears.  I can't think of any off the top of my head I remember seeing as Tele-Games.

[yotsuya]

Yeah, I definitely have had many Telegames Pac-Mans.  Now that I think about it the silver labeled Atari games might not have been licensed to Sears.  I can't think of any off the top of my head I remember seeing as Tele-Games.

I think you are right there.

Hell, now that I look at the graphic, maybe I was the one with the Tele-Games version of Pac-Man. 

[pbj]

Fun fact, at one point Telegames was literally a man's garage down the street from my house.  I went to school with his daughter.     I discovered this only because there was an ad for them in GamePro that gave me a serious WTF moment and I hopped on my bike to investigate.

[ChadTower]

...and this is how pbj learned that it just might be awkward to have things in your garage that attract the neighborhood children.

[pbj]

 

Yeah, I moved out of that town around 1993 and half it was promptly leveled by a tornado.

Supposedly all the "Telegames Personal Arcades" were destroyed and I doubt one single ---fudgesicle--- has ever been given.

I didn't actually knock on his door or anything, but after I confirmed the house was down the street I was, of course, telling everyone at school that would listen about it.  That's when she chimed in, "that's my dad's company."  Our school district went to hell once some projects were built and EVERYONE I meet that ever lived there all fled around the same time, so by the time I was old and dorky enough to have it sink in that a neighbor had a garage literally stuffed with video games, we were all long gone.

 

[ark_ader]

Not much you can do in 4K in five weeks.  Design and coding in assembler was reflected in the development time allowed. I would like to see someone else's product under the same constraints.

And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

This sounds way dumber than it actually is.  In their aforementioned hubris, they expected system adoption to follow and surpass the numbers of the cartridges.  I.e. they expected the licensed titles to be "system sellers".  It was dumb for them to bank on these titles doing that, based on only the licenses, but that's apparently what they did.

[RandyT]

Not much you can do in 4K in five weeks.  Design and coding in assembler was reflected in the development time allowed. I would like to see someone else's product under the same constraints.

No doubt.  I'm sure they were under the iron fist of decision makers.  I wouldn't be a bit surprised if those same decision makers dictated that the E.T. title screen show that graphic, further hampering their abilities. They did the best they could.

Fun fact, at one point Telegames was literally a man's garage down the street from my house.  I went to school with his daughter.     I discovered this only because there was an ad for them in GamePro that gave me a serious WTF moment and I hopped on my bike to investigate.

I think the Tele-games you are thinking about is this company, which has been around since 1986.  The Sears Tele-game was just a trademark owned by Sears and Roebuck, which was used to market Atari products.  No relation as far as I could ever find.  They may have had a hand in producing/marketing some 3rd party games though.

[DaveMMR]

I think I only have one Sears Tele-Games version of a 2600 game. They're not super rare but I don't see them as often as the Atari one.

That's what's fun about collecting 2600 carts: you can have five copies of the same game and they're all different label variations (number on spine, black with text, black with picture, silver, red, Sears, etc.) so they end up being kept. (Well maybe I'm the only one weird about that kind of thing.)

[pbj]

Ah.. looks like you're right, Randy.  Ah well.. it's all old Atari crap nobody wants anyway.

[RandyT]

I think I only have one Sears Tele-Games version of a 2600 game. They're not super rare but I don't see them as often as the Atari one.

I have fond memories of when I was a kid with no money, bargain shopping at the mall for games.  There was a Hills department store (which later became Ames, and then went away completely) and a Montgomery Wards (where I bought my Bally Astrocade) which always had systems set up for people to play, usually with the latest release loaded up.  I always went to Sears to check out the selection, and without fail, the same titles under the Tele-games name were more expensive.  Probably the reason why fewer were in circulation.

[wp34]

My first Atari was the Sears version.  I remember BID Sears would let you return opened games.  We would take them back and exchange them for new ones once we got bored--or more often when we got the game home and realized it stunk.

[pbj]

That was a trick that never occurred to me.  My wife and her friends managed to burn through most of the SMS and NES libraries by doing that, though.

 

[ChadTower]

That policy pretty much put Software Etc and Babbage's under, IMO.  I knew people who would buy a game, play it for two days, return it, and repeat indefinitely with the same purchase.  Some clerks would stop doing it after a few returns but it wasn't long that they discovered that cleavage always equaled return with no questions.

[DaveMMR]

I think Nintendo's reign in the late 80's, they also put an end to accepting returns from stores of any open software (it wasn't for piracy concerns; it was just because they could), which in turn, put an end to stores accepting them.

[SavannahLion]

I think Nintendo's reign in the late 80's, they also put an end to accepting returns from stores of any open software (it wasn't for piracy concerns; it was just because they could), which in turn, put an end to stores accepting them.

I don't recall stores doing that until later, either just before or right at the introduction of the Genesis or TG16. I had friends who did that with NES and SMS titles. I never did because I always knew what to buy based on their purchases.

[DaveMMR]

Yeah, it was later in the NES' lifespan, around 1988. Below's where I happened upon that tidbit. But yeah, I remember I tried to return a game and was told "nope."  I was very careful with my purchasers from then-on.

Another Nintendo policy that made retailers furious was their return policy, or lack thereof. Because Nintendo's quality control was boasting a defect rate of 0.9% for hardware and 0.25% for software by 1988, Nintendo executives did not see a need for their previous 90 day guarantee. A new policy was announced to the retailers: no returns. Once a game cartridge box or system box was opened, a refund was out of the question. Concerning this, Sheff wrote:

"Pandemonium followed. One of the largest retailers in the country threatened to stop carrying Nintendo Systems and products. Nintendo refused to change the policy and the retailer refused the products. The retailer held out for three months; after that it crawled back and agreed to Nintendo's terms.

http://www.geekcomix.com/vgh/fourth/nesbad.shtml

[ChadTower]

Pretty sure people were still doing that at Software Etc / Babbage's as late as the Saturn.  That was store policy, though, not manufacturer.

Chad

[pbj]

You can still do it at Gamestop with used games.

Or you can do the customer is always right two step.  Take it back to the store as defective, get a sealed replacement, return sealed replacement for a refund.  Easy peasy.

 

[wp34]

In the 80's we had a place in Des Moines that sold a "Happy Chip" that let the Atari 800 be able to make "backup" of copy-protected discs.  They also allowed you to rent said discs.   I thought that was cool when I was a kid but in hindsight it just seems nuts.   Why buy a new game when you can just rent it and make a copy? 

[pbj]

Texas had a chain called Floppy Joe's where you bought a PC game for ~$80 and could return it within three days for ~$70.  They were always next door to a Kinko's so you could photocopy all the copyright protection.  Google says that one of them still exists in Plano... which I'm sure is the same location I went to 25 years ago.   

[wp34]

Texas had a chain called Floppy Joe's where you bought a PC game for ~$80 and could return it within three days for ~$70.  They were always next door to a Kinko's so you could photocopy all the copyright protection.  Google says that one of them still exists in Plano... which I'm sure is the same location I went to 25 years ago.   

Floppy Joe's.  That's Brilliant. 

[ark_ader]

That policy pretty much put Software Etc and Babbage's under, IMO.  I knew people who would buy a game, play it for two days, return it, and repeat indefinitely with the same purchase.  Some clerks would stop doing it after a few returns but it wasn't long that they discovered that cleavage always equaled return with no questions.

Lol.  I used to be a manager at software eft.  And they guys would buy 20 titles of a game and bring them back within ten days.  I would shrink wrap them and put them back on the shelves.  Then I contacted my local sheriffs office and told them I suspected the guy of copying software.  He didn't come back after that.  It was mostly Apple 2 and commodore software, and at the end of the day the guy was taking the piss.  One or two I could understand as those games were crap.

I heard afterwards they raided the guys house and he was selling the games mail order.  Mail fraud would be a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- test for every package sent.  It made the paper too.

[shmokes]

And like they did with Pac-Man, they made way more than they could ever expect to sell (even if every single 2600 owner bought the game.)

This sounds way dumber than it actually is.  In their aforementioned hubris, they expected system adoption to follow and surpass the numbers of the cartridges.  I.e. they expected the licensed titles to be "system sellers".  It was dumb for them to bank on these titles doing that, based on only the licenses, but that's apparently what they did.

Moreover, I expect there were powerful reasons for producing as many cartridges in a single run as you thought you could sell. I know, at least, that for companies that had to rely on Nintendo for cartridge production, this was the case. And as a result, many publishers found themselves sitting on huge inventories of unsaleable cartridges when sales didn't match estimates. Not sure to what degree this applied to Atari, who could produce their own carts, but I suspect that it was a significant factor.

[pbj]

I heard afterwards they raided the guys house and he was selling the games mail order.  Mail fraud would be a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- test for every package sent.  It made the paper too.

Link or it didn't happen.

Friend's dad worked at Electronics Boutique.  He had a literal filing cabinet full of copied games and manuals.  The employees would open the games, copy everything, and shrink wrap the boxes back up.  I think they had every title released between 1985-1995 in that thing.

[ark_ader]

I heard afterwards they raided the guys house and he was selling the games mail order.  Mail fraud would be a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- test for every package sent.  It made the paper too.

Link or it didn't happen.

Friend's dad worked at Electronics Boutique.  He had a literal filing cabinet full of copied games and manuals.  The employees would open the games, copy everything, and shrink wrap the boxes back up.  I think they had every title released between 1985-1995 in that thing.

Link for 24 years ago?    You funny.

We were able to take a game home and play it, so we could tell customers how the game played.  It never occurred to me to copy the game and sell it, probably due to the part about being caught and losing my job.  I'm sure the copying practice went on all over the place, and is a contributing factor for why we have so many software collections available on the net.