Why do people keep saying the Wii U is struggling when it's currently winning?

[pbj]

The whole WiiU debacle is so reminiscent of my experience with the Sega Saturn that it's spooky.  Comes out first, major company that made a fortune on the previous generation, some excellent games, and then left in the dust.  I don't see them putting Mario on Android anytime soon, though... making too much money off the 3DS.


http://www.computerandvideogames.com/445870/nintendo-thinking-about-a-new-business-structure/

[s_busby_uk]

The whole WiiU debacle is so reminiscent of my experience with the Sega Saturn that it's spooky.  Comes out first, major company that made a fortune on the previous generation, some excellent games, and then left in the dust.  I don't see them putting Mario on Android anytime soon, though... making too much money off the 3DS.


http://www.computerandvideogames.com/445870/nintendo-thinking-about-a-new-business-structure/

Its pretty reminiscent of the Dreamcast failure too.

The 3DS may keep them afloat but it's not doing as well as the DS did, and that's arguably a lot to do with the recent surge in tablet/phone devices making portable gaming incredibly cheap and more convenient (if, in my opinion a hell of a lot less enjoyable - touchpad joypad controls are dreadful).

[knave]

I don't follow this logic. WiiU was out first. Has been out for a while, shouldn't it be the first to be hacked if all things are equal? It really does seem the reason is that it is harder to hack, in which case it has little to do with the other two major consoles...

It is probably a mixture of that coupled with the lower capabilities of the system and adoption rate of the Wii U in the hacker community.

[pbj]

Its pretty reminiscent of the Dreamcast failure too.

Dreamcast sold better than WiiU, but Saturn was a flop out the gate that they kept around longer.

Oh well, it'll be the typical "ten good games" system like all other Nintendo consoles. 

 

[Vigo]

Had they just made their stupid controller a 3ds (or at least 2d version of), I think they would have been fine. A lot of people would have jumped on the wii if it doubled as a full fledged handheld gaming system.

Getting 2 systems in one would be amazing if you thought about it.

You could buy wiiware and old Nintendo games, and they could be played both handheld and on a tv, and save files could be shared seamlessly. I would take Tecmo bowl with me everywhere. You could have a a lot of wii games that you could take on the road, where you could play at least minigames or a lower resolution version of the game. You could pop in 3ds games, and telecast one of the screens up on to the big screen. You could also do cool things with linking up other 3ds handhelds, like play against each other on 3ds games and have split screen pop up on the TV. 

That, and make a series of toddler to Kindergarten games for the thing, with a big rubber case to go around the controller. A lot of parents will shovel out $150 for those LeapPads, plus $20 a pop for games. Nintendo is already catering to 8-year-olds, might as well go all the way down that path and get them from the beginning.

[hypernova]

I think the time it takes to hack a console is fairly dependent upon how easy it appears to be.  The fact that the new gens are x86 based probably is putting them on the forefront concerning the hacking community, as I assume they'd think those two would probably be easier to do.

[pbj]

Yeah, but they had the softmods running on Wii mode on the WiiU instantly, so you'd figure....

 

[DaveMMR]

Hacking on the WiiU is fairly moot with regards to their sales. The general console-buyer is not looking for something he or she can "hack" in-between their gaming-fix. (Nor do many of them have the inclination or skill to do-so.) The OUYA, which allows users to do most anything with their hardware, isn't exactly flying off shelves. Likewise, the PSP - a relatively easy-to-root handheld - never came close to sales of the Nintendo DS.

Not to mention that if Nintendo adopted a lax-attitude towards hacking of their hardware, this can be seen by many as a lax-attitude towards piracy-prevention, scaring away publishers even more.

[pbj]

Well, (apparently being the only person around here that's slightly informed on the WiiU "scene") the problem is that a lot of well known groups have announced they've gotten it hacked.  None of them have released a damn thing.  About 3 weeks ago, one of those groups got on stage on a conference and basically said, "yeah, we've got it but we can't be assed to put it out there."

So people doing it for the challenge/glory/money aren't touching it because why bother?  As soon as you release something, these better connected groups are going to one up you.

In my (sigh) years of experience with this stuff.  Nobody has ever, EVER held back an exploit or a hack.  Anyone claiming such should be instantly dismissed.  People still buy it, though. 

But, hey, maybe we'll see a WiiU Key... some day....

 

[s_busby_uk]

I'm not that up on the hacking scene - what's the ultimate goal of "hacking" a Wii U? Is it basically to be able to play pirated media, to run homebrew or is the whole thing just about kudos?

[DaveMMR]

I'm not that up on the hacking scene - what's the ultimate goal of "hacking" a Wii U? Is it basically to be able to play pirated media, to run homebrew or is the whole thing just about kudos?

Starts as the third thing, advertised as being for the second thing but ultimately for the first thing.

(EDIT: I'm grossly generalizing, of course. I do understand there are legit goals for "hacking" a console.)

[pbj]

No there aren't. 

[Malenko]

No there aren't.

There are. It is about being able to do it (and being first to do it) but ultimately its just for piracy. Home brew is neat, and I played some neat home brew games on my PSP but I used it more for emulators and games I didnt own than anything else. Actually still use it for the CPS1&2 emus and as a portable SNES

[ChadTower]

If it's just about being able to hack the thing then groups would develop their hacks and then not distribute them.  That way other people wouldn't be able to exploit their work for piracy.

Oh wait, I think pbj said that is what is going on right now...

[ark_ader]

No there aren't.

There are. It is about being able to do it (and being first to do it) but ultimately its just for piracy. Home brew is neat, and I played some neat home brew games on my PSP but I used it more for emulators and games I didnt own than anything else. Actually still use it for the CPS1&2 emus and as a portable SNES

This and the 60 odd games I never got around to play on yet.

[DaveMMR]

Even more fuel:

Nintendo pretty much admitted themselves that things are not so rosy in their camp.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/175052-the-wii-u-is-dead-in-its-current-form-admits-nintendo-but-what-now

As such, rumors have been swirling about them getting started on a new console already...
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/175135-as-the-wii-u-struggles-reports-and-specs-of-nintendos-next-gen-consoles-spread

Now that last link should be taken with a grain of salt - not only because it is just that, "rumors", but also because I always thought these companies were always putting their next design on the table the day after a launch.

That being said, it would make perfect sense for Nintendo to just dust themselves off and release a new console that will compete with the current generation but do so earlier rather than later to avoid suffering the fate of the Dreamcast (a system made obsolete within the space of a year.) It's not unheard of: the North American Sega Genesis was released in 89, giving them a nice two-year head-start over the SNES that provided the momentum to remain a viable threat throughout the 16-bit wars. And hopefully they can bridge that gap between their handheld and home console in a smart way (not like the GBA cable for the GC that went underused.)

Anyway, just wildly speculating - interested to see how this all plays out.

[pbj]

Yeah, it'll be interesting.  I think they could modernize the menu interface and try to stop making the online component so kid friendly.  I'm kinda peeved I'm finally legit for the first time in forever and there's nothing I want to play online on the damned thing. 

And fix the NetFlix app. 

 

[hypernova]

That being said, it would make perfect sense for Nintendo to just dust themselves off and release a new console that will compete with the current generation but do so earlier rather than later to avoid suffering the fate of the Dreamcast.

Nintendo missed this generation...they are going to have to wait at the very minimum 3 years and probably more like 5 to garner any enthusiastic responses for a new release.  Otherwise, people will still be enjoying their XB1 and PS4, and will be rather unwilling to spend money on a console company that has recently been catering to children.  And they are going to have to make the two new consoles look like a Macintosh computer.

[DaveMMR]

That being said, it would make perfect sense for Nintendo to just dust themselves off and release a new console that will compete with the current generation but do so earlier rather than later to avoid suffering the fate of the Dreamcast.

Nintendo missed this generation...they are going to have to wait at the very minimum 3 years and probably more like 5 to garner any enthusiastic responses for a new release.  Otherwise, people will still be enjoying their XB1 and PS4, and will be rather unwilling to spend money on a console company that has recently been catering to children.  And they are going to have to make the two new consoles look like a Macintosh computer.

Well yeah, it would be a waste to release it as soon as next year. I would say three years would be a safe bet if this generation goes back to the five-year cycle between generations. Long enough that a new console would get gamers excited but not so late that Sony/MS would have their next consoles ready in time to counter. 

That being said, it's still an uphill battle. The "console for kids" stigma they have is a big issue as you said. But what's really killing them is the lack of third-party support. They haven't had the best history with these companies so maybe if they could sweeten the incentives for the likes of Activision, EA, et. al. to make games on their console (and make it developer friendly) it would turn things around.

But of course, I'm fairly certain that it's all easier said than done.

[amendonz]

Guess howards  too busy having fun with his Wii U pedometer  to come back to his thread.

[pbj]

You can't really argue with sales numbers and public statements from company leaders.

This thread has actually prompted me to dust the thing off and play with it lately.  I'm sorry, but it's just so damned boring. 

But, beyond that - the eShop is a complete disaster to navigate.  The NetFlix app is terrible and it runs better on my $50 BluRay player.  ZombiU is flat out one of the worst games I've ever played.  Wonderful 101 is terrible.  Super Mario 3D World is okay but plays exactly like the 3DS game that came out 2 years ago (luckily I borrowed this one first).  Everyone hates Wii Party U and wanted to quit 3 turns into it.  The floating thing in Nintendoland won't shut the ---fudgesicle--- up and actually let you play anything, and when you play something you've navigated through 10 screens to get to a 30 second game that isn't fun.  I like the 2D Mario game okay but it's not anything new either (and some of the levels are really, really whacked).  Balloon Fight was a good purchase at 30 cents.  If all their old games like that were cheap (say, $1 each) I'd probably have 50 of them.

So it keeps telling me "Data Downloaded" or some crap every single time I use it.  Looks like I downloaded Wii Sports and forgot about it.  Hey, I remember that golf game being a hell of a lot of fun and I was always disappointed they didn't release a proper game.

The WiiU golf game is so ridiculously complicated.  Put your irreplaceable touchscreen controller on the floor and waggle your remote over it.  The ---fudgesicle---?  Nobody wants to stand up to play video games.  Everybody plays Wii golf by dangling your arm off the side of the couch. 

I won't buy a Nintendo console again until I play it first.  I felt the same way after Gamecube but 10 seconds of Wii Sports convinced me I had to have a Wii.

 

[ChadTower]

Everybody plays Wii golf by dangling your arm off the side of the couch. 

I've don't see one person do that in my house.  We like standing up and acting as though we're actually doing something.  Of course games are boring when you decide to cut the activity in half out of laziness.  A large part of the fun is acting like you're playing for real.  Punchout is 100x more fun when you're standing up then sitting. 

Granted, that only applies to the games that are actually fun.

[hypernova]

Same here.  We always stood up when doing the Wii Golf and other sports.  Although, admittedly on the short <2 ft putts, we half-assed it.

[edekoning]

Wonderful 101 is terrible.  Super Mario 3D World is okay but plays exactly like the 3DS game that came out 2 years ago (luckily I borrowed this one first).

Wonderful 101 for me would be The reason to get a WiiU. But then I am a big fan of Platinum Games. Bayonetta and Vanquish being two of my favorite games from last generation.

[Malenko]

More people signed into steam yesterday at the same time than there are WiiU units sold, yet PC gaming is dead.

[s_busby_uk]

Wonderful 101 is terrible.  Super Mario 3D World is okay but plays exactly like the 3DS game that came out 2 years ago (luckily I borrowed this one first).

Wonderful 101 for me would be The reason to get a WiiU. But then I am a big fan of Platinum Games. Bayonetta and Vanquish being two of my favorite games from last generation.

Likewise - that was one of the only exclusives I felt I was missing out on by not getting a Wii U. And Zombi U, for that matter - I know some people hate it, but I thought the permadeath mechanic was really interesting.

[pbj]

More people signed into steam yesterday at the same time than there are WiiU units sold, yet PC gaming is dead.

Steam is trying to push themselves as a viable platform, so take any numbers with a grain of salt.

Also, don't you sign in just by turning on your computer if you've bought into their DRM sandbox?

[s_busby_uk]

More people signed into steam yesterday at the same time than there are WiiU units sold, yet PC gaming is dead.

Steam is trying to push themselves as a viable platform, so take any numbers with a grain of salt.

Also, don't you sign in just by turning on your computer if you've bought into their DRM sandbox?

Don't you more or less sign into any console by switching it on these days? Not sure I see your point.

Also DRM is not an issue if it's handled correctly - that's why you don't see anyone complaining about Steam's DRM, because the service is so well run that it's never an issue. For starters, you can play the games offline so it's barely an issue. And signing into Steam is nearly always an advantage for numerous reasons, least of all streamlined updates and multiplayer matchmaking. Just because your console game doesn't necessarily phone home every time you play it doesn't mean you're any less at the behest of piracy measures that that company has put in place. It's all a means to stop you pirating the software, so unless you're running a modded console then you're as much in their pocket as anyone else.

As games move more and more towards digital distribution this sort of thing is going to become more widespread, not less. The question is, not that it's being done, it's how it's being done.

Really the only downside to the Steam system is not being able to sell your games on - though you can sell on games you've not played yet. But then on the plus side, you will soon be able to share your entire games library with up to 10 friends/family members.

[edekoning]

Steam is trying to push themselves as a viable platform, so take any numbers with a grain of salt.

Also, don't you sign in just by turning on your computer if you've bought into their DRM sandbox?

You can disable that. Steam runs just fine on my Cab in offline mode. No network connection required, besides to install new games, or update existing ones. So its pretty much the same as any console.

[danny_galaga]

Yeah, but they had the softmods running on Wii mode on the WiiU instantly, so you'd figure....

 

As well, hackers hack. Because they can. It doesn't even matter if they are interested in the system or not. A friend of mine bought the original xbox when it first came out, just to hack. He doesn't even play console games. He then ran Linux on it, turned it into a server and ran a MS hate sight from it 

[versapak]

Steam is trying to push themselves as a viable platform, so take any numbers with a grain of salt.

Also, don't you sign in just by turning on your computer if you've bought into their DRM sandbox?

You can disable that. Steam runs just fine on my Cab in offline mode. No network connection required, besides to install new games, or update existing ones. So its pretty much the same as any console.

Yeah, that being said, I'd be willing to bet that most people just let it log in at start up. You definitely can not use people logged in as a an example of people playing on steam. I haven't played a game on steam in a couple months, but I have been logged into it literally every day.

[RandyT]

RE: Howard

Epic thread title, considering the timing.  Charlie Sheen would be proud.


The Wii and the WiiU should be a lesson to any current or future console makers out there.  The gaming community at large is not interested in gimmicks, all-in-one set-top boxes, or really anything which detracts fundamentally from the core gaming purposes of the machine.  These peripheral devices are fine when properly supported and actually bring new and interesting facets to the gaming experience, but they cannot be forced into the situation, solely due to the parent company's desire to "differentiate" itself from other players in the market.  It also cannot take the place of powerful gaming hardware functioning in the background of those differentiators.

I have stated in the past that sales of the Wii was a "quirk", and the attempt to recapture that anomaly would likely cost Nintendo it's place in the market.  One really has to question the savvy of Nintendo's guidance team, and what they really care about.  They should have learned from the experience of so many consumers who bought the Wii, and shortly thereafter left it languishing in a closet, while those same purchasers were continuing to play, and more importantly purchase, games on the 360 (and still are today.)  This really makes it appear that with the WiiU, Nintendo was interested primarily in the same "short term" success, without much regard to the longevity of the system and it's consumers' longer term experience.  A more unkind speculation is that Nintendo doesn't understand the market at all.  Nintendo has made some great titles and will always have it's ardent fan base who will support anything with an "N" on it.  But we are seeing how small that base is now, and how little draw those franchises have retained.  They aren't system sellers they once were.

Microsoft is treading similarly in their footsteps, but at least had the sense to build upon a solid, forward looking gaming hardware foundation.  They are extolling the differentiators, but have a solid gaming foundation to fall back on.  The problem  MS will have, at least initially, is that the differentiators which are it's primary focus now, make the system more costly.  Not so different from the Blu-Ray player of the PS3, which added cost and hobbled adoption rates.  MS's pre-launch PR debacle has also done it damage, from which it may not fully recover.

The PS4 is going the be the next leader in the console marketplace.  Sony could still screw it up, and give MS a chance to go head-to-head, but I'm thinking Sony have learned their lessons from history.  Nintendo, unfortunately, appears to have not.  I'm looking forward to seeing Nintendo titles on other systems.  It's what they do best, and it's long overdue.

[ark_ader]

Steam is trying to push themselves as a viable platform, so take any numbers with a grain of salt.

Also, don't you sign in just by turning on your computer if you've bought into their DRM sandbox?

You can disable that. Steam runs just fine on my Cab in offline mode. No network connection required, besides to install new games, or update existing ones. So its pretty much the same as any console.

Yeah, that being said, I'd be willing to bet that most people just let it log in at start up. You definitely can not use people logged in as a an example of people playing on steam. I haven't played a game on steam in a couple months, but I have been logged into it literally every day.

I had to let steam eat all my data bandwidth on my laptop so I could load up Steam the day after I went into offline mode.  Note to myself:  don't go on holiday with a laptop with steam games on.   

Steam is being a real pain of slowing down my PC just to check if there is any updates.  Try changing the server location in settings, as it sometimes speeds up the process.

[hypernova]

The PS4 is going the be the next leader in the console marketplace.  Sony could still screw it up, and give MS a chance to go head-to-head, but I'm thinking Sony have learned their lessons from history.  Nintendo, unfortunately, appears to have not.  I'm looking forward to seeing Nintendo titles on other systems.  It's what they do best, and it's long overdue.

I don't know if Sony learned anything per se.  It's just that as you said, Nintendo did NOT learn anything, and MS decided to see how much it could get away with, and it ended up hurting them as well.  For once, Sony is looking to be the company that is actually trying to be the only one to avoid alienating their customers, so I suppose you could say they learned that.

[northerngames]

I am sure there attention is all on the ps4 and xbox one before the wii-u get's any of their attention there's just not enough interest to have the wii-u hacked over the other console's at ths point in time is all.

if the xbox one and ps4 was not luanched the console would be hacked already but the xbox and sony disracted them from the wii-u is all.

once there both cracked I am sure the wii-u will be on the menu afterwards but for now there is no point other then to say yup it's hacked and all that work for this small handfull of titles 

I don't follow this logic. WiiU was out first. Has been out for a while, shouldn't it be the first to be hacked if all things are equal? It really does seem the reason is that it is harder to hack, in which case it has little to do with the other two major consoles...

it's very simple there is many more games people want to play and actally put an effort in to do so over the wii-u so it is more important to them to get to the huge library of games there dying to play over a handfull of children based games that most could care less to even hack their conosle over lol.

or in other word's if you had a choice of all 3 hacked and set n your lap free you would take the wii-u and it's library over the other 2?....not!!

and even if you did your the 1 in 1000 that would type of thing it's like making it  a priority to hack a handheld leapfrog over a psp or 3ds there is just no incentive to do it.

has nothing to do with when they were released either it's the overall big picture in the long run and the incentive to put the effort in to make it happen where the wii-u is on the back burner over the other 2.

[Hoopz]

Not that Howard will come back to this thread now that the facts are against him, but here is the latest info:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/29/nintendo-wii-u-sales-figure-2013/

For the TL:DR crowd:  Nintendo sold fewer Wii Us in a year than Xbox Ones or PS4s sold in two months

[Warborg]

I think you need to accept that the industry sees Nintendo as an old, out-of-touch relic that is no longer welcome to the party. Some of these perceptions could be attributed to Nintendo's baffling policies of treating all their customers like children that need protection from the real world. But, equally so, their best games are dismissed as not being 'gritty, realistic or mature.'

Truth be told, there are many who would rather Nintendo go the route of Sega - exiting the hardware game and releasing their IPs to smart phones and mainstream consoles.

The sales reports don't matter so much. So long as Nintendo churns out quality stuff, they eventually get my money. And despite that one recent hiccup, they're still quite healthy.

But why?  Idiot teenage/20 something gamers get a pass, they are too stupid and full of hormones to know any better, but surely "the industry" should know by now that Nintendo always leads the charge in longevity, if not innovation?  Nintendo doesn't treat their consumers like children, they put child-safe features into their consoles because many of their consumers ARE children.  Microsoft and Sony really need to do some of that stuff if you ask me.  I haven't used voice chat in online-multiplayer in years because 8 and 10 year old kids are always cursing like sailors on there.  Their parents need to get them off the "adult" consoles. 

Nintendo can't go the route of Sega, it's impossible.  Sega always copied what Nintendo did... Nintendo, on the other hand, designs their consoles based around games they want to make.  You can't make Nintendo games on anything else but Nintendo hardware. 

I just don't get FPS... at least not people my age playing them.  I played them extensively in high school and college, but I grew out of it.  They were actually acceptable in our day though... you were shooting demons from mars/hell or mutant pigs from outer space, not creepily realistic human models on a creepily realistic modern battlefield.  I'm not saying that sort of thing is wrong, but I don't know if it's right either.  I feel a bit uneasy playing stuff like that.

Well, if profiles are accurate, I'm several years older than you and I still very much enjoy a frantic FPS match at times...  I don't see why we need to limit ourselves to any particular genre or console or game manufacturer...  We play what we enjoy regardless of what it may be.  If you don't enjoy FPS and have a particular type of game you like then obviously that's fine, but I'm not sure why we need to pigeonhole games to certain age groups.  Just depends on my mood, sometimes FPS sounds like fun, next day maybe racing, etc...  Right now I'm working on setting up ScummVM and some old LucasArts point-and-clicks.  At the end of the day, isn't it really just about our having fun regardless of the type of game or who made it?

Also, I'm not sure why it matters if the PC exclusives need to be "AAA" or not...  Again, if you enjoy them, why does it matter if it's an indie title by 2 guys in a garage or a blockbuster by Activision?

Lastly, the 20-something "idiot hormone filled gamers"...  My kids are early 20's gamers...    And they enjoy everything from classic arcade games on my cabinet (seen them playing things like Ms. Pac-Man and Donkey Kong and a variety of newer ROMs) to current PC games, emulators for various consoles, plus their NDS's, N64, SNES, Wii, GC, Dreamcast, etc... 

P.S.  I also see nothing wrong with the Wii U, but wasn't really compelled to grab one either...  As far as that goes I'm still a little annoyed at our Wii that doesn't seem to like the DLP TV in the living room at all...  :/

[ChadTower]

Our kids are not good examples.  They have been exposed, with care, to the stuff before their time.  And they often appreciate it.

Their freinds are good examples.  I see it in my kids' friends all the time.  Walking into a gameroom with several pins and nice Atari vectors they play 3 games and then go right back upstairs to a modern console.  They just don't know what to do with the older games and don't seem all that interested in learning.

[pbj]

Old games have their charms, but new ones are far superior.

[Warborg]

Old games have their charms, but new ones are far superior.

Based on?