Please Take the Time to Write an Hour of code.

[ed12]

yes that is the main libary >example<
u can clearly see the header in the shell
that saves a full day of coding...and tell me pbj that u can do this ?
if so pony up pal..if not ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- down and shut up..
i can post u 100 examples of vb..we use the base shell..
but hey do it yourself and find out what >'< means
or find out what >:< means
option explict..explain that 1 pbj

ed

[pbj]

yes that is the main libary >example<
u can clearly see the header in the shell
that saves a full day of coding...and tell me pbj that u can do this ?
if so pony up pal..if not ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- down and shut up..
i can post u 100 examples of vb..we use the base shell..
but hey do it yourself and find out what >'< means
or find out what >:< means
option explict..explain that 1 pbj

 

[ed12]

and i will add
i never have nor ever will take an authors name out of a script
this i am well known for ..>not doing it<,as i believe in respect
to the person whom put in the x-hour's to help me along
this even applys to my coding nick
i do not expect to ever see it removed

ed

[ark_ader]

and i will add
i never have nor ever will take an authors name out of a script
this i am well known for ..>not doing it<,as i believe in respect
to the person whom put in the x-hour's to help me along
this even applys to my coding nick
i do not expect to ever see it removed

ed

I do.  I don't think it is moral and completely unethical to take credit for someone else's work.

Just take the header off and replace it with your own.  We all stand on the shoulders of giants, so who cares which ones?

[ed12]

that is so true
very very true
but i tend to like to write my own code
and it ticks me when i find my name removed..as it has countless others in the past
so now days i hard code it right into  the running script
u would need to dig it out and then go from there
that to me means u
a=found a flaw
b=improved it

ed

[shmokes]

and i will add
i never have nor ever will take an authors name out of a script
this i am well known for ..>not doing it<,as i believe in respect
to the person whom put in the x-hour's to help me along
this even applys to my coding nick
i do not expect to ever see it removed

ed

I do.  I don't think it is moral and completely unethical to take credit for someone else's work.

Just take the header off and replace it with your own.  We all stand on the shoulders of giants, so who cares which ones?

Do you think this is why you are so bad at what you do?

[ark_ader]

and i will add
i never have nor ever will take an authors name out of a script
this i am well known for ..>not doing it<,as i believe in respect
to the person whom put in the x-hour's to help me along
this even applys to my coding nick
i do not expect to ever see it removed

ed

I do.  I don't think it is moral and completely unethical to take credit for someone else's work.

Just take the header off and replace it with your own.  We all stand on the shoulders of giants, so who cares which ones?

Do you think this is why you are so bad at what you do?

To you maybe as you lack any conviction.  I don't personally blame you though, for someone who has experienced failure of such magnitude, it doesn't surprise me that you are still cynical of others, their successes, and achievements.

[Vanguard]

Salaries in my area of expertise have never taken a hit.   I work in a niche area that requires a lot of math and OS knowledge.   There are only a handful of employers that would hire me too but luckily people that do what I do are in short  supply.

I've worked for 2 major recognizable companies and both are heavily populated with foreign nationals.   As I hiring manager, I find it very hard to find qualified American students.   Most kids today are learning web development skills and not true engineering.   I've interviewed PHD students who don't know what interrupts are or even how to explain the inner workings of a linked list.   They use a Java class and are oblivious to how the data structure is implemented.

It's very hard to find people who understand the gritty details of OS/computer architecture, assembly language and increasingly, even pointers.

[pbj]

So we should train legions of college students to work in a niche area with only a handful of employers?

[ChadTower]

It's very hard to find people who understand the gritty details of OS/computer architecture, assembly language and increasingly, even pointers.

These are not niche aspects of coding.  They're intermediate level concepts in a good Computer Science undergrad program.  Late Sophomore/early Junior year classes.

[ark_ader]

It's very hard to find people who understand the gritty details of OS/computer architecture, assembly language and increasingly, even pointers.

These are not niche aspects of coding.  They're intermediate level concepts in a good Computer Science undergrad program.  Late Sophomore/early Junior year classes.

Which we were taught back in 1985 during our O Level Computer Studies in High School.  I cut my teeth on 6502 Assembler and we were encouraged to code in Modua-2.  Now it is all Microsoft Office and basic computer usage, which in this day and age, is the requirement of 90% of employers.  Like I said you need to start early and introduce advanced algebra/calculus/differentials early in the academic year, as it is a important aspect of modern day system design and analysis.

[Vanguard]

So we should train legions of college students to work in a niche area with only a handful of employers?

No you teach real engineering skills.   I'm in a niche area that requires c, linear matrix algebra, and specialized types of CPU architecture.  The basic tools I learned in college gave me the tools I needed to learn the skills I'd need to write operating system components and to work on hardware design.   Most everything I learned for my niche came from my job.

However, if all I learned in college was Java, I'd never had gotten the job I have.   My niche is a specific skill in developing part of the OS and hardware.   There's hundreds of companies that do similar work, just not on the type of hardware I work on.   Companies, like Apple, Google, Broadcom, AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, etc, etc, etc all need skills that are becoming harder to find because colleges are churning out Java, C# and HTLM5 coders.

[Vanguard]

It's very hard to find people who understand the gritty details of OS/computer architecture, assembly language and increasingly, even pointers.

These are not niche aspects of coding.  They're intermediate level concepts in a good Computer Science undergrad program.  Late Sophomore/early Junior year classes.

I never said those were niche skills.  Those are basic skills that are needed to get your foot in the door at companies that need people for lower level engineering.   The problem is you take a course in assembly or data structures and it's a one time deal.   You get your grade and move on.   Then the remainder of your degree is spent learning web based stuff so you can work for Google.   I don't think a lot of these students even understand that the classes you choose to take for web dev is far different from the classes you take if you want to work on hardware or operating systems.

Colleges are still chasing the internet wave and pumping out web programmers.  Colleges have changed their curriculum to fill that market.  Some colleges have split their degree into a Comp Sci and Comp Systems.   Comp Sci is now web programming and Comp Systems is what Comp Sci was when I was in college.   OS, Hardware, digital design, AI, Graphics, Vision, (low level stuff).   The Comp Sci path these days is less rigorous with the math so it's also more popular. 

We have such a hard time finding enough people to fill jobs building low level OS components that we ship people from all over the world to the U.S. and pay them $90k a year straight out of college.

It's not hard to find students with C on their resume who can't code up a linked list or simple sort.   They took a C class in college and that's the last time they used it.

[ark_ader]

I got a distinction on all my C programming classes and I don't see the point of adding it on my CV.  It is just a tool box you use when you land a job and have the ability to create rather than operate.  If you come out of college with STEM degree and you cannot code, then you are an idiot in my opinion. 

What was the point in doing the degree in the first place if you cannot come out of the gate prepared for the industry?

[ed12]

i guess i am very old..as i understand
6500/6800/6802/z80/6808/z82..the full 9 nine yards
lord i even rem jakeupslater..1+1=? 1-1=? hex to decmial/etc
oh well

ed

[ChadTower]

I never said those were niche skills. 

So we should train legions of college students to work in a niche area with only a handful of employers?

He did.  I quoted you because you were the one who itemized the skills.  I wasn't clear enough in what I was responding to, I guess.

[pbj]

Well at least no one has claimed they learned assembly by using punch cards, so we've moved the goalposts slightly into modernity.

Specific skills needed only by a few result in smaller applicant pools and higher salaries.  If the market needs 90% Google programmers, I fail to see the point of wasting student time and money teaching students low level programming.  It sounds like the market has already corrected the situation and created alternative degrees for those 10%.

But, hey, I've been there.  When I was getting my bachelor's, they dropped the "here's how to assemble a computer" class.  I was completely appalled.  Student reaction was joyous, "screw that, I don't need to know how to plug in a hard drive!  I'm gonna write java code for Anderson Consulting!"  I couldn't wrap my head around the notion of people getting a "computer degree" and not having a basic knowledge of how the damn things worked.

In graduate school, I was involved with an "IT mentor" group.  What did every damn one of them say?  Get a basic job doing tech support for 2-3 years while developing skills and looking for the job you actually want.  Make sure you know how to do basic repairs.

"Have you tried turning it off and on" indeed.

 

[Vanguard]

Specific skills needed only by a few result in smaller applicant pools and higher salaries.  If the market needs 90% Google programmers, I fail to see the point of wasting student time and money teaching students low level programming.  It sounds like the market has already corrected the situation and created alternative degrees for those 10%.

Again, these aren't specific skills needed by a few.   What's happened is that in the past 5 years 3 major OS's have come on the scene with all new hardware architectures.   There's a huge demand for low level work but colleges are still pumping out Java programmers.   As our devices become smarter, we are only going to need more and more of these types of engineers.

Ironically, India and China are still producing students with tradition CompSci backgrounds and they are getting the jobs in this country or we are setting up shop in those countries instead.

Both of the last two companies I've worked for have hired legions of EE and CS people in Shanghai, Bangalore and Mumbai.

[Grasshopper]

It's been very interesting (and slightly depressing) reading though this thread. With regards to the "skills shortage", we have exactly the same situation here in the UK. Companies will typically ask for ridiculously long lists of highly specialised niche skills, offer a salary less than a college leaver would expect to get in most comparable professions, and then bleat on about "skills shortages" when they fail to find anyone suitable.

It's even worse for people just staring out. There are practically no entry level positions in the IT industry anymore, and very few companies are willing to offer  in-house training to their IT staff. If you've got a good recent degree in an IT related subject, and the stuff you learned at university just happens to match the set of niche skills that the company is after, then you've got a chance. But for everyone else, forget it.

Another depressing feature of IT recruitment is how rapidly hard won skills become devalued. If an IT professional is made redundant and gets a non-IT job to tide himself over, then after about a year or so, his IT skills will be practically worthless in the jobs market. For some reason, companies only seem to care about recent experience.

None of this is actually new. IT recruitment practices have always been notoriously shortsighted and irrational. But at least in the past, for those people who could get a foot in the door, the salaries were high enough to (just about) make up for all the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

These days, with salaries plummeting, and chronic job insecurity, IT is no longer really an attractive career option.

So getting back to the original thread topic, I'd say to anyone just starting out, by all means learn to code as a hobby. But if you're after a solid, well-paying career then you're better off looking elsewhere.

[Grasshopper]

I do.  I don't think it is moral and completely unethical to take credit for someone else's work.

Just take the header off and replace it with your own.  We all stand on the shoulders of giants, so who cares which ones?

Seriously? Are you the same guy who's always lecturing others around here about copyright/IP infringement, or has someone else hacked into ark_ader's account?

[ark_ader]

It's been very interesting (and slightly depressing) reading though this thread. With regards to the "skills shortage", we have exactly the same situation here in the UK. Companies will typically ask for ridiculously long lists of highly specialised niche skills, offer a salary less than a college leaver would expect to get in most comparable professions, and then bleat on about "skills shortages" when they fail to find anyone suitable.

It's even worse for people just staring out. There are practically no entry level positions in the IT industry anymore, and very few companies are willing to offer  in-house training to their IT staff. If you've got a good recent degree in an IT related subject, and the stuff you learned at university just happens to match the set of niche skills that the company is after, then you've got a chance. But for everyone else, forget it.

Another depressing feature of IT recruitment is how rapidly hard won skills become devalued. If an IT professional is made redundant and gets a non-IT job to tide himself over, then after about a year or so, his IT skills will be practically worthless in the jobs market. For some reason, companies only seem to care about recent experience.

None of this is actually new. IT recruitment practices have always been notoriously shortsighted and irrational. But at least in the past, for those people who could get a foot in the door, the salaries were high enough to (just about) make up for all the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

These days, with salaries plummeting, and chronic job insecurity, IT is no longer really an attractive career option.

So getting back to the original thread topic, I'd say to anyone just starting out, by all means learn to code as a hobby. But if you're after a solid, well-paying career then you're better off looking elsewhere.

Looking for entry level positions? Checkout jobserve.com.  Plenty of them, but prepared to go in as a contractor at £15 p/h but even at that rate you would be just be breaking even after all that outlay.  Lots of money to be made, but you better know your ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, with certs to back you up.  Degrees no longer cut it, well maybe except mine...

I do.  I don't think it is moral and completely unethical to take credit for someone else's work.

Just take the header off and replace it with your own.  We all stand on the shoulders of giants, so who cares which ones?

Seriously? Are you the same guy who's always lecturing others around here about copyright/IP infringement, or has someone else hacked into ark_ader's account?

I don't worry about IP infringement anymore.  It is a losing battle.  Nobody cares. After I change code, it becomes mine, as long as I do not pass it off as the original coder, it is legal.  There is no actual copyright on code.  The documentation on the other hand....

So you are free to do whatchoolike