Framing a wall: idiot edition

[SavannahLion]

A lot of lobbyists have a hand in that. Take a look at how Duct Tape got into building code. The days of writing a law for safety (pressure relief valve on a hot water heater is a good example) are long gone.  Now it's about screwing the home owner while using the cheapest crappiest materials possible.

Wood construction and materials is so ---smurfy--- that a number of home owners are turning to steel frame construction to get that quality back.

[shponglefan]

I guess I know the general consensus here on building permits.   And nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks this is a little insane. 

What really gets me is I could (based on the questions I asked), frame out a stud wall and drywall it.  No permit needed.  But add insulation and suddenly you need a permit.  Weird.

Also, having torn out the whole wall, here's a couple more of the "studs" from it.  I still can't believe someone went through the trouble of using 5 (!) pieces of 2x4 to make a vertical stud. 

[Howard_Casto]

That's not a wall... that's modern art!  Hang it in the living room.   

[MonMotha]

I have a 110 year house that I plan on selling soon. It simply needs to be re-shingled, but because of permit code, it would cost me $20,000 to 25,000 to have it done. I have a pretty small house, something like 15 X 80, but code states that the house must have specific rafter width and plywood decking to be to current code. That means if I get a roofer to come in and reshingle, he will be forced to redo the entire top of my house with all new material. I have had about 7 quotes and they all told me the same thing: My roof is sturdier than most modern roofs, but different from modern code standards and therefore would need to be completely replaced if I want new shingles up there.

Have you checked with your relevant city/county officials?  Many municipalities have provisions for field certification of deviations like this.  The requirements are often quite onerous as they're also/mostly intended to cover new, experimental building techniques, but if indeed your roof is "sturdier than most modern roofs", you may be able to get such a variance to the code granted to re-shingle as is.  It'll probably cost you way more in time than dollars to push through.

[SlammedNiss]

I have a 110 year house that I plan on selling soon. It simply needs to be re-shingled, but because of permit code, it would cost me $20,000 to 25,000 to have it done. I have a pretty small house, something like 15 X 80, but code states that the house must have specific rafter width and plywood decking to be to current code. That means if I get a roofer to come in and reshingle, he will be forced to redo the entire top of my house with all new material. I have had about 7 quotes and they all told me the same thing: My roof is sturdier than most modern roofs, but different from modern code standards and therefore would need to be completely replaced if I want new shingles up there.

When I sell the place, I will just drop 8k off the price as a counter offer to "cover the cost" of a new roof.

Sounds familiar to something somebody local is dealing with. They are wanting to replace the deteriorated siding on their home, but because the home is in a "historical district" they told him he had to stop what he was doing. They want to mandate what is put back onto the home, and will cost him far more than he originally anticipated.

http://hutchnews.com/Todaystop/A1--historic-housing-blog

[TopJimmyCooks]

Excuse me for getting all X2 on this but some of you have the wrong idea about building permits.

I'm a big fan of safety, so if you need to get things inspected for safety's sake I'm all for it, but imho permits are a scam created partially to make a new industry and partially to pass the blame of an accident away from the utility company. 

Not true.  I'm a student of building codes and they are primarily oriented towards safety, specifically Avoiding structural collapse, can't get out of the building during a fire, or you get electrocuted.  they don't protect quality except as a by product. 

Example:  . . . .  The house with the 100 year old wiring... it's still chugging along. 
This isn't a crazy over the top example either.... I know a person who was in a situation like this.

This is an example of (I think) one of the great things about the USA.  Once you're built out you're done with most regulatory, until you make an alteration.  the same applies with zoning which is why you still see eyesores in areas that have had zoning ordinances for many years.  Now, if you have 2 fires in your old house with knob and tube bare wiring still in use, they might condemn it for the safety of the neighbors.  but in almost all cases, the government tries to stay out of your house when possible. 

My point is, if you think the point of inspections is to ensure you have a safe home think again, the point usually is to give a GC trying to supplement his income some extra cash and to make sure the electric company doesn't get sued.

Although the contracting lobby has some input on building codes, its almost always pushing to make them as weak and liberal as possible, not stringent to sell more building materials.  the general view is the cheaper it is to build the more we will be hired to do it.  the point of codes is safety, with a newer secondary goal of making buildings energy efficient.  My brother just ran into a radon abatement issue.  Radon abatement contractors didn't exist before someone figured out that radon causes health issues.  the issue came up, legislation happened, contractors moved to provide work that meets the code.  in that order.  homebuilders aren't lurking around trying to find ways to charge people more.  they fight against that, generally. 


Gonna keep addressing Howard here although others have spewed wrongness in this thread as well:

Yeah I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that "city planners" or "councilmen" write up this stuff and they don't have a clue what they are talking about in regards to the history of home building. 

In almost all cases wrong.  West Virginia uses IBC 2009 building code, just like most us states currently.  it is a code developed by an international committee of experts and practitioners.  Not your friendly local city councilman.  Some states make minor exceptions or additions for their local conditions.  City planners may have a more direct influence on Zoning, which is a different thing than building codes, but I'm well qualified to hold forth on Zoning as well if anyone wants to have a go. 

I think the best example I can give is the fact that modern structural codes are based upon modern lumber and don't make exceptions for old lumber. 

My grandma's house is made out of 100+ old lumber.  First of it uses REAL sized lumber.  A 2x4 is actually 2 inches by 4 inches ect....  Secondly it comes from old growth trees....
 . . .
 and 1.5 x 3.5 new pine studs that are so flimsy I can drive a screw through them with a manual screw driver. 

This is dead wrong.  IBC certainly allows for and covers literally archaic techniques and materials for wood framing.  It covers heavy timber framing, skip sheathing, wood shingle roofs and a bunch of other stuff you don't really see done much anymore unless someone is specifically going for historical accuracy. 

Modern lumber is smaller than old full dimension lumber, but it's better graded/more quality control and you are allowed to use full dimension if you have it.  That's not to say you can't buy Low Grade lumber today, but the code sets the grade minimum (#2, stud, etc.).  Those markings stamped on the studs mean something.

It's one of those deals where they should really just make it really hard to get an inspectors license, ensuring only knowledgeable people get in and each house should be inspected on a case by case basis instead of going down a list of pointless technicalities.  Of course that has it's own problems, so I'm not even sure if a reasonable solution exists.

In my experience this is already true.  inspectors have to be trained and licenced under IBC code.  You can also always get stuff excepted or specially reviewed.  usually you go in, tell them what you're trying to do, and they'll either tell you they'll review your plan and inspect the work, or they'll tell you to get an engineer/architect to seal the design and then maybe a 3rd party inspector, so they are covered.  They are respectful of their limits and may pass the buck, but they are also civil SERVANTs and their desire is not to keep people from doing stuff.  just from doing dangerous stuff.

I still feel like the OP's basement wall has nothing to do with life safety and he can frame it and hang it without a permit reasonably, if not legally.  I could respond to a lot more but I've got to go devise ways to gyp my clients more efficiently and quickly by exploiting current municipal regulatory loopholes!?!

[Vigo]

Have you checked with your relevant city/county officials?  Many municipalities have provisions for field certification of deviations like this.  The requirements are often quite onerous as they're also/mostly intended to cover new, experimental building techniques, but if indeed your roof is "sturdier than most modern roofs", you may be able to get such a variance to the code granted to re-shingle as is.  It'll probably cost you way more in time than dollars to push through.

Well, in the end, I figured it was not worth fighting the city. From what i gathered, it would require showing up to a neighborhood hearing and making my case. I have no patience for my city. In the few short years I have been in the city, they have:

Accidentally condemned my house and tried to force me to vacate. Never found out what the mix-up was, but I had to submit way too much documentation and get it notarized for them. I also had lost my homestead status and had to reapply.

They accidentally classified my house as a rental property. I was upgrading my mailbox, and left the old one behind a locked porch for a couple weeks. Somehow a city inspector saw the old mailbox and assumed I was dividing out my mail from a subrenter's mail and changed my property classification to an illegal rental. They tried to hit me with a ton of fines, and revoked my homestead yet again. That was a 3 month fight that the city wanted to enter my home to make sure there was no second family living there. Since there was a guest bedroom, they didn't beliecve me after inspection and prompted them to do random surveillance of my home.

The city also made me get rid of my trailer. I had a trailer folded up in a corner patio area, but the city declared it was a yard parked vehicle. I lost that fight.

Then the city tried to tow my car for not having a parking permit. In reality I was the first car on the street to put on the new parking permit, but the parking enforcement officer didn't realize it and thought I was the one with an outdated permit. I had stopped him from towing, but out of spite, the guy ticketed me and I had to take off of work to show up to a hearing.

Then there is the time the city chopped down the outwald half of my trees. The city realized they could get a federal grant for "restoring" a historical home. One of the city council members, who owns a small trucking company, bought out a city block for truck parking. He found out that one of the houses he bought was a classified as historical, so he had the city buy the home without the land from him. The city decided to ship the house to an open park across the street from me. One day I came home to a couple 30 foot tall half-trees outside my house, and had to find out the story the paper the day after they drove a crumbling house down my street. Flash forward two years and that house is still crumbling and condemned, my trees haven't recovered, and I don't have that park plot across from my house anymore.

[Vigo]

@topJimmyCooks

Sorry, but I really still have to agree with Howard.

As far as building code goes, I think almost all older or larger cities have their own code developed in addition to standard building codes. Where I am from, they call it an "appendix to the state adopted building code". There are chapters and chapters of city-specific codes. In my city, there are 23 chapters. They have further chapters to control "Historical" districts and houses.

In my experience the city inspector's main goal has always been to get into my business. (See my post above). I have only met one really stellar inspector in my city, and that guy was truly great at his job. Too bad for every one of him, my city has 10 cronies of the city. Most the inspectors in my city are intentionally trying to get my neighborhood, as the city has been working on ways to plow down our neighborhood to expand the hospital without an uproar. The inspector who got me on my trailer let that detail slip. There is a reason why my neighborhood had the highest foreclosure rate in the entire country a few years back. Bunch of cronies. 

Oh, and as far as "old lumber" goes. Modern lumber may have quality controls and grades to their lumber, but it is undeniable how sturdy mature wood lumber is in comparison to modern young tree lumber. I prize the 100+ year old lumber in my house, and any time I have the opportunity to take it down, I do. Simply because I want it for myself. My house is made 10 times more durable than a modern home because of that wood.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Vigo:  no question you've been done in on your house.  Mostly on zoning and historical preservation isht which is, yes, very local and very annoying but not really building code related.  By the way, what city are you in?

I arfing hate hysterical preservation these days. I like nice old neighborhoods very much but the way they go about keeping them that way is draconian, the petty little napoleons, and they certainly help their friends and developers and smooth the way for their own projects.  (preservation boards are stocked with contractors, major landowners, developers and architects/engineers + rarely maybe a historian).  Good idea but too much means for corruption.  I believe you have the right to complain if they overlaid the district on you while you lived there but you should be grandfathered.  If you moved into it, you might have known better.   Any time I buy any property I check the rules for fire districts, historical, zoning, etc.  because as a GC, changing the use and altering the building, I'm going to get all the rules applied to me in spades.  The process of checking all this stuff before buying is called due diligence.  Sounds like this isn't your issue and you're trying to comply with the rules and still getting jerked around.

I've dealt with building and zoning in a lot of cities and towns throughout the southeastern us.  Very few times/places are they in your business badly like you've had to deal with.  most often, they are overworked, underpaid and do their minimum job requirements but don't look for trouble.  Some places they do look for trouble.  Two examples are Pinehurst NC and Alexandria VA.  these places have a lot of their own rulebooks. 

Any city is much worse in this regard than a rural area eg Howard's. 

I'm going to start a separate thread in EE on modern lumber v/s full dimension old growth.  Maybe. 

[ChadTower]

Well said.  I was going to add that permits can come in handy if one has no clue as to what they are actually doing. 

This is pretty much why I went whole hog on permits for my gameroom.  I wanted to do all of the work myself and it's all for the first time.  That and I'm adding "living square footage" to the house so it needs to be building inspector approved to count.

[Howard_Casto]

Jimmy, I don't want to start a big argument with you, but everything you argued with just isn't correct. 

As Vigo said, yeah WV uses the IBC 2009... and then there's a little unnoticeable comment that any local laws or existing state specific laws take president and thus 90% of what's in there is overridden.  Keep in mind, I don't even live in the city, I live out in the sticks, but because the nearest city is Charleston, all the inspectors go by Charleston code.   That's how it goes in WV... most of the inspectors are based in a town or city, most people live in a rural area... whatever code they decide to inflict on you largely depends upon who you call.  This probably isn't even legal, but it doesn't matter... it's simpler to just deal with their particular code.

There was a house next door with the same vintage lumber... he was getting it inspected for something else and the inspector complained that his studs were too far apart.  The owner explained that it didn't matter because it was thicker timber but the inspector didn't care... he wanted that 16 on center as opposed to the 18 or 20 that it was.  It was a big fight to keep from having to rip the stuff out, so nope.... no real consideration for old construction materials. 

I've met 10 inspectors over the years... they are all out of work or aging or down on their luck GCs.  Most of them blindly followed the code.  Others would cuss and swarm about how dumb the code was, but they'd follow it anyway.  So when even the supposed expert tells you the code is b.s. and yet he fails you, the whole inspection is naturally b.s.  I'm not even in construction in an official capacity but I could go get my license in general construction inspection right now.... you just have to pass a rather simple test.  Oh and give the state some money (naturally).   

You are right, it is easier in a rural area... only because we don't get anything inspected.  If you are going to go the legal route though it's just as bad, if not worse because things just aren't followed closely and you never know which inspector you are going to get. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

That sucks that Charleston has so many exceptions to IBC, and it's true of course that local jurisdictions make additions and edits as I mentioned.  Most places in NC/SC/VA don't do that because it exposes the city to liability.  IE something is charleston codeworthy but not ibc and mold grows in the walls, they sue the ---- out of the city inspection department.  Taxpayers pay the legal bills.  it happens all the time.  The great thing about widely accepted code formats like ibc, cabo, etc. is that the training is better and the interpretations come into line. 

. . . that his studs were too far apart.  The owner explained that it didn't matter because it was thicker timber but the inspector didn't care... he wanted that 16 on center as opposed to the 18 or 20 that it was.  It was a big fight to keep from having to rip the stuff out, so nope.... no real consideration for old construction materials. 

See - that's well covered under IBC code- there are a million charts of stud size/spacing etc. and 16" isn't the only option, and to a certain extent you can interpolate. 

If you get into this kind of fight - just get an engineer (PE) letter, sealed, saying it's ok.  That absolves the inspectors - they want to CYA even when/especially when its a little off the beaten path.  I've done this probably 10 times over the years.  cost ranged from free to maybe $400 was the most I ever spent. 

. . . but I could go get my license in general construction inspection right now.... you just have to pass a rather simple test.  Oh and give the state some money (naturally).   

I suspect the test is like a civil service exam - to get into the job.  Once you got on board, you'd have to go to class to get certification for what you're inspecting - building, plumbing, whatever.  That's my guess. I have not done any work in WV.  If it's exactly what you're saying then I agree, that's ridiculous.  Around here you can't get inspections sometimes because they're all in training all the time.