So....why would someone use GroovyMAME with an LCD??

[Gray_Area]

Or, basically, anything not CRT or at least not multiscan? I don't get it.

[dgame]

Because they have both CRTs and LCDs and want to be consistent across multiple computer systems. It does not hurt to use it on a LCD.

[Calamity]

Or, basically, anything not CRT or at least not multiscan? I don't get it.

GroovyMAME is aimed at CRT monitors, that's true. However you can still benefit from the improved syncrefresh feature to achieve smooth scrolling and fluent audio even with an LCD. You can achieve the same thing with mainline MAME by means of a certain combination of options, but its far from a trivial matter, especially for the audio part. Besides, if you happen to own one of the rare LCDs that support custom refresh rates, and a video card which Powerstrip has good support for, then GroovyMAME can remote control Powerstrip in order to tweak the refresh rate of the LCD's native resolution, so games can run at their native refresh without scroll or audio glitches.

Nobody should use LCDs for serious emulation in the first hand, but that is another question.

[Dr.Venom]

Nobody should use LCDs for serious emulation in the first hand, but that is another question.

 +1

(Apart from some very rare exceptions, like e.g. Amiga emulation and running a RTG Workbench in 1920x1080p )

[rCadeGaming]

Nobody should use LCDs for serious emulation in the first hand

+1.   

[NightSprinter]

 +1

(Apart from some very rare exceptions, like e.g. Amiga emulation and running a RTG Workbench in 1920x1080p )

Always wondered how WinUAE would work with resolution auto-switching.

[ID4]

I have WinUAE working with resolution auto-switching 

[jrose78]

I use an LCD with powerstrip and an older version of groovymame (can't get the new version to work right) . I use it for the refresh rates and I use HLSL for the CRT view effect. If I am not mistaken emulation is not an exact science no matter how good Mame gets the fact is you don't have the original controller for every game or the original speakers or the original cab shape. Its all about trying to get it close but it seems that a lot of people don't want to try and make the lcd get close to the original because that is just crazy talk but the fact is CRT monitors are not being made anymore (at least I think this is the case) but even if they where it would be big bucks. I come across so many crt snobs that like to put down people using lcd. Look, I get it , CRTs are better because that's what the original all used but its getting harder and harder to find them so lets try and keep old acrade games alive at home for a lot of people and learn to the love the lcd. 

[Calamity]

Look, I get it , CRTs are better because that's what the original all used but its getting harder and harder to find them so lets try and keep old acrade games alive at home for a lot of people and learn to the love the lcd.

Would you learn to love a plastic woman?

Please don't take me too seriously.

This is not all about fetishism. I'd say that cabinets, even controls, are unessential. The way I understand this is that the fundamental part of video games is the video itself.

It's funny because I get exactly the opposite sensation than you. I come across many LCD lovers who like mocking CRT purists. IMHO CRT snobbishness would be more of a reaction against people pretending to ignore the otherwise obvious flaws of LCD technology in the context of emulation. It's getting common to see people so excited with the results they're getting with their HLSL or whatever filters that they joyfully proclaim "the CRT is dead", like if this wasn't a truism, since the fact that CRT technology is simply discontinued. So what this statement really intends to suggest is that HLSL has made totally pointless the struggle to get CRTs and nowadays computers working together. To this day, I'm yet to see any filters which are truly convincing, leave apart the refresh issues, motion blur, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first when it comes to agree that any progress in simulating CRT monitors on modern displays is of crucial importance, for obvious reasons. I just can't understand how often it is forgotten that keeping animation fluid is more important than adding fake scanlines, etc.

[rCadeGaming]

Not to mention the problem of input lag, which so many LCD users seem to overlook.

[jrose78]

16ms lag? I am not that good that I am concerned.  On big screen TV's it can be a problem because the tv is assuming you are watching a movie and input lag doesn't matter that much there so it trys to process a lot. But a computer monitor most with 6ms or less isn't going to effect much.  The biggest problems with LCD that I find are viewing angles and blacks being black.

Calamity - If the magic of an arcade game is in the monitor as you say then the arcade games will just die when CRTs can not be found anymore and mame is pointless isn't it? I think the magic was kinda everything including the arcade itself. I went to Funspot, NH a few weeks ago and had a blast playing the original cabs and I am not sure I can create that experience at home. I played ms pacman, burgertime, and donkey kong. I even played some game I had never played and can't remember the name of it. It had a blob and a bunch of elevators. I would not even think for a moment that an lcd would ever be better than the original crt and that's why I bought a plasma tv for home because it had a lot of properties that a CRT has (black levels, viewing angles, no fast action issues) and that LCD 120hz is god awful for video. I understand the mustard is not Grey Poupon ;-) but I need something to put on my ham sandwich and I have some imagination left over from my childhood ;-) .

[Calamity]

Calamity - If the magic of an arcade game is in the monitor as you say then the arcade games will just die when CRTs can not be found anymore and mame is pointless isn't it?

Good question.

I'm just saying that, for people like me, the fun in this hobby will be over the very day the last CRT dies. Or maybe, by then, we might already have a truly valid replacement, which undoubtedly will need to be some sort of stroboscopic technology.

MAME pointless!!! I would never say such thing! MAME is the contemporary L'Encyclopédie. 
 
It's only that, with current LCD monitors, the kind of preservation you get is more related to taxidermy than to keeping arcade games alive.

[cools]

You can get very good results with HLSL, but current monitors simply don't have the resolution to do it well enough to beat a CRT.

[rCadeGaming]

16ms lag? I am not that good that I am concerned.

Most LCD's have a lot more than 16ms of input lag.  Yes, there are some available with 16ms or less which are appropriate for modern HD game content, but you have to know what models you're looking for.  Most have several frames of input lag, and it's never listed by the manufacturer (response rate is not a measure of input lag).  You have to test for yourself or use a reputable list like the one on shoryuken.

Also, while a single frame isn't a lot in itself, if it's being added on top of several frames from the rest of your setup (MAME lag, controller lag, your own response time, etc.) it can put you over the edge.

[jrose78]

I bet an average person taking the "taste test" could not tell the difference hence the snob factor I am detecting.  I did a little reading and there have been arguments over testing methods and such. Yes LCD have more input lag than a CRT but enough to make a difference when you are trying to emulate an old arcade game to relive some of the fun? If you are so serious about being exact you would just restore a cab to the original otherwise sacrifices need to be made . Maybe the sacrifice is not using an original control maybe its using an lcd do to space or who knows what.  Are you understanding my point at all? Lets say for example you buy a joystick with a little more throw that the original ergo when you move it left maybe it takes 5ms more, but I don't see people grabbing the pitch forks over that.

How many people here play tempest? How many have an original tempest spinner? I bet most don't but we all know that the spinner is at least really important in that game. Now I would think the people that don't have the tempest knob don't because its NOT AVAILABLE just like CRTs are not available to most people.

[Calamity]

f you are so serious about being exact you would just restore a cab to the original otherwise sacrifices need to be made . Maybe the sacrifice is not using an original control maybe its using an lcd do to space or who knows what.  Are you understanding my point at all?

Yes, I understand your point. It's only that I don't fully agree. The way I see it, there is a hierarchy of possible sacrifices. We only disagree on which sacrifices we consider acceptable.

Some of the reasons are certainly subjective. Here in Spain, very few original cabinets were imported, most cabinets were generic. I understand that for American players keeping the original cabinets can be very important as they are an essential part of their memories. I try to focus on objective facts.

There is a point a view that says video games are an interactive experience. So having the proper controls is vital for the quality of the experience, otherwise the interaction is degraded. The same is valid for the display's input lag.

There is another point of view that says video games are, also, an aesthetic phenomenon.

Both views are complementary, I'm just emphasizing the second one.

If you just care about replicating the interaction, then you should focus on the proper controls and a low latency display of whatever technology.

On the other hand, if you believe, as I do, that video games from the 80's-90's period created a totally new visual world which can be considered as an aesthetic phenomenon on its own, and you agree that this cannot be understood without the cathode ray tube, then you clearly see the importance of preserving the type of display that served as a base for these creations.

I accept there may be a snob factor to this, I don't mind

How many people here play tempest? How many have an original tempest spinner? I bet most don't but we all know that the spinner is at least really important in that game. Now I would think the people that don't have the tempest knob don't because its NOT AVAILABLE just like CRTs are not available to most people.

The Tempest game is a good example of what I say. Asteroids too. You can't understand what an amazing game Asteroids was unless you play it on an original vector monitor. Unfortunately vector monitors are very rare and definitely not an option for most people. By playing these games on an LCD, or even a raster CRT, you're just seeing a sad parody of what the real thing was. And I agree the spinner is a must for playing Tempest. But cloning the original spinner should be something rather feasible. Replicating vector monitors without a complex industry behind is not a possibility. Thus the type of loss is different in each case.

Raster CRTs, although not manufactured any more, are still available (July 2013). In Europe there are plenty of SCART TVs for the price of a beer. In America you don't have SCART but you can use a transcoder. Arcade monitors are still sold in some places, although they can be expensive. I agree CRTs can be a pain in the ass, they often break, they're complicated to configure. I think LCDs are chosen mainly for convenience, not for availability.

Finally, I have tried to promote the creation of a list of arcade friendly LCD monitors (i.e. variable refresh capable), several times, with little to no success.

[jrose78]

If you just care about replicating the interaction, then you should focus on the proper controls and a low latency display of whatever technology.

     I do care, but I care about other factors as well.  I understand if you were a poor kid and all you could do was look at the screen and fall into a trance them hey the monitor matters but for people that played the games we love the games just as much.      I just had to get that dig in. In all seriousness though I do appreciate the work you do and I use Groovymame to get the refresh correct and I am doing the best I can to get this LCD to look MORE like the original, I just can't stand the "ick is that an LCD" factor.

P.S Availability is a real issue. Getting a monitor without severe burn in and not costing an arm and leg is a problem.  Calamity how much you think shipping is on something that weighs as much as a tv does not to mention the dam thing will break if you try and ship it.

[Calamity]

Hey who said I didn't play the games?? 

I grew between arcade cabinets as all my generation here. I have two cabinets at home, 1 for the living room, 1 for the kitchen. Come on, it's because I love the games so much that I can't stand seeing them on that plastic thing

I've never asked for prices but I believe shipping is prohibitive indeed. Your best chances are second hand local shops (for TVs) and ebay. Unless you live in Australia where you can pick very good specimens directly from the roadside.

PD: In case it wasn't clear, I do think that LCD can be acceptable as long as the animation is smooth (proper v-sync, etc.). On this regard, I'm yet to see one of these Lightboost models, paired with black frame insertion in MAME, it's said to be as smooth as CRT.

[jrose78]

I was looking at that lightboost tech not to long ago. It shows some promise. Here is a quote from http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/motion_blur.htm

It seems that the LightBoost system can be used as a modern-day strobe backlight and from many user testimonials, it seems to work very well. This is accomplished by turning off the backlight completely for the whole screen between refreshes, while waiting for pixel transitions. The backlight is strobed only on fully-refreshed frames, bypassing pixel persistence as the motion blur limiting factor. There is no backlight diffusion, unlike within a scanning backlight. In this case, strobe backlights can be superior to scanning backlights, and according to the work at BlurBusters can “allow LCD displays that have the motion clarity of a CRT.”