New member, new to building, Simpsons 4 player conversion to Mame semi-stealth

[gr3yh47]

I have a 4 player Simpsons cab that had been converted to NFL Blitz 99; got it at an auction for 20 bucks, and it's even functional (yay! Free funding for my project by selling parts!)

Working on converting it into a semi-stealth MAME cab. Why semi-stealth? Well, I will be using original (Midway) Galaga side-art, marquee, and kick-plate but it's obviously not a Galaga cab from the shape; also, the 4 player control panel will have a customized (lightly tweaked and rearranged) version of the original Galaga CPO.

Here is a very rough scale mockup of the CP layout/CPO. Art is mostly in place. control layout needs to be tweaked. (comments/suggestions are quite welcome!)

Explanation of above (for clarity and because I'm very proud of some of these ideas):

• Brown color in the back is the shape of the original CP. My new one will have an extra 1.5 inches at the bottom (it will be the size of the CPO in the picture). Also the CPO will be black to the edges of the panel like the original cab, the brown is just to show the shape
• All Joysticks have classic red ball tops; button colors will be as indicated
• 8-button layouts will have zippy joysticks with no restrictor and upgraded microswitches. the buttons (including player 3 + 4 start) are IL competition convex buttons. The curvature of the button layout is based on the Sega player 1 layout from this awesome page
• 4-button layouts will be IL horizontal microswitch concave buttons (including player 1+2 start) and have Mag-stik plus joysticks
• All of the buttons will have 50 gram microswitches EXCEPT the red buttons which will be 75g cherry switches
• Classic white player 1 and 2 silhouette buttons on the front of the CP box
• Classic white player 3 and 4 silhouette buttons on the left and right side of the CP box and will double as pinball buttons
• My favorite little part - see that green x on the spaceship eye at the bottom middle? that is going to be a red trackball 

All of the parts were ordered yesterday except for the trackball.


Now for some cab pics.

original auction pic:


Once i got it home and pulled the monitor and buttons:


I was going to remove the boards etc from inside, but it was so extremely musty that when i took a breath back there i literally threw up. 
So  as I am composing this there is a full size ionic breeze running full blast inside the cabinet. I would appreciate any other ideas for dealing with the smell.

[Unstupid]

Wow that's a lot of holes!  Looks like it used to be a mortal kombat before a Blitz...

[PL1]

I was going to remove the boards etc from inside, but it was so extremely musty that when i took a breath back there i literally threw up. 
So  as I am composing this there is a full size ionic breeze running full blast inside the cabinet. I would appreciate any other ideas for dealing with the smell.

CheffoJeffo has some good ones here.

ChadTower and SavannahLion have some more good ideas in this thread.


Scott

[DaveMMR]

Wow, that NFL Blitz must have been horrible to play with all those wacky-angled sticks (look at the bolts).

Speaking of which, don't angle your sticks. And it looks a bit busy.

I would put the 8-button control sets on the inside positions and the 4 button sets on the outsides. You'll play tons more fighters than four player games and having to play those reaching towards the back at an odd angle (even if the sticks were "up towards monitor", like they should be) will pretty much kill any desire for extended sessions. The outside positions are better for the simple games (e.g. typical four player games).

[Le Chuck]

The galaga CPO is beautiful in its simplicity when stock.  As shown the buttons detract from the art and vice versa.  I think you can do a great homage without cluttering the CPO so much on the art.  Also, take Dave's advice.  He speaks sagely.  You've got a great project going here, just tweak that cp art and layout a bit and you'll have a real winner!

[gr3yh47]

thanks so much for the advice guys!

You'll play tons more fighters than four player games and having to play those reaching towards the back at an odd angle

I actually rarely play fighters which leads to why the 8 button layouts are on the sides - i want them to have competition buttons but I want convex buttons for the classics which is most of what I play. The reulting compromise is either fighter players have to stand to the side, or I have to stand to the side when i play Galaga so yeah. See below about the angle.

Wow, that NFL Blitz must have been horrible to play with all those wacky-angled sticks (look at the bolts).
Speaking of which, don't angle your sticks

The CP is 37" across so i can only fit 2 people on the front. I figured i would have 3 and 4 angled because they will be off to the sides and could turn their bodies instead of just their necks to look at the monitor. I'm curious what the reason for not angling them would be? (actually do want to know, not trying to be argumentative) Its not a big deal to me if 2 people playing a fighting game have to stand off to the side.

it looks a bit busy.

As shown the buttons detract from the art and vice versa.
I think you can do a great homage without cluttering the CPO so much on the art.

I agree on the busyness as pictured in the concept. I was also worried about the buttons detracting from the art, so the idea was to have only the red button stand out on each set and the blue ones blend into the background. As for clutter, I will probably remove player 2's move and fire art, and I might get rid of the multiple spaceships and only have one bigger ship in the middle. Any other ideas are welcome - I was trying to include all of the original art but agree about clutter. And I will be doing something about the 'Fire' Text having a button through it, just not sure what yet. What about something like this:



Thanks again so much guys, it's really encouraging to hear that you all like the concept. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stuff above.

And thanks PL1 for the must/dust links

[Malenko]

the smell? wipe down the insides with bleach water, then seal it with primer (like Kilz)

[DaveMMR]

I'm curious what the reason for not angling them would be? (actually do want to know, not trying to be argumentative) Its not a big deal to me if 2 people playing a fighting game have to stand off to the side.

Do a search for "angled joysticks"; there's been countless threads on the debate (Edit: Here's the most recent one.). But the bottom line is that most 3/4-player games had all their joysticks straight (up towards monitor)* for a reason.  Take the classic GAUNTLET for example. You can stand anyway and still be able to control the sidelined characters without effort. But when you angle it, you are making a very specific dictation as to where someone needs to be standing. And they'll have to remember which way is up (no one looks at arrows on the panel while playing). And having to do that while playing a fighter? It's a recipe for a poor game night.  Test, test, test your layout before committing to artwork layout/wood cutting.

*In that thread I linked to, a member posted a mind-blowing exception: a Virtua Fighter with angled controls. Everyone suddenly remembered why it controlled like ass in the arcade.

If you're not interested in fighters I'd just ditch the 8-button controls and either (a) make them simple 4-button controls or (b) ditch the extra two players entirely. You should really think about how many times you'll be playing with three people simultaneously and if it's worth the extra space and expense. (Most, if not certainly all, 4-player games have 2-player versions as well.) If you have enough of an interest in fighters, I'd keep the 6/8 button set-up front and center.

[gr3yh47]

Thanks for the link. you mentioned in that thread

15 degrees off center, but not even 45 degrees.

100% agree about player 1 and 2, and those will be straight on, but for 3 and 4 who are going to be standing at a 45 degree angle, I tried straight on sticks and just hated the feel. to move up, i have to do what feels like up/left. I also tried standing with my body straight to the screen and turning my neck, which wasnt too bad for my neck but because i then had to reach to the right it hurt my wrists to bend them to match the straight controls.

That said, most 4 player games only use 3 buttons, which is something i didnt consider in my testing. It was hard to bend my wrists to fit the fighter button layout, but those are only two player and we could stand directly in front for those. If I decide the angle is really necessary for 4 player games there is a really awesome way of mapping the sticks that effectively has mame registering the stick as being rotated 45 degrees.

Its possible, using the standard mame mappings and 8-way joystick mode.

say your p1 joystick is UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT and you want to rotate it 45 degrees right:

up = UP RIGHT or UP or RIGHT
down = DOWN LEFT or DOWN or LEFT
left = UP LEFT or UP or LEFT
right = DOWN RIGHT or DOWN or RIGHT

pushing the joystick to the UP position will trigger both up and left, giving a diagonal shot in smashtv 

from http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,52041.msg509792.html#msg509792

The above should be included in the debate more often. It is absolutely genius imo and if i really want the 45 degree angle for 4 player games this can be mapped for those games and still allow me to play fighters with straight on sticks standing from the front instead of the side of the cp... maybe.

I am going to set it up both ways on some thin plywood. I am not sure how a 10-12" reach towards the back of the cp will feel for fighting games. But I am starting to lean towards straight sticks. Plus with the straight layout it will look much better/ more symmetrical.

If you have enough of an interest in fighters, I'd keep the 6/8 button set-up front and center.

I would go with this if i didnt want competition buttons for the fighting layout but want the convex buttons to be 'true player 1' in the center. i think it will end up being ok. Have been gradually leaning more towards a straight layout all day. will ultimately come down to if it is too far to reach or not. On the off chance i end up angling them it will be a strict 45 degrees.

Now for a project update:

Fom my original post

there is a full size ionic breeze running full blast inside the cabinet.

DONT EVER DO THIS OH MY GOSH TOXIC TOXIC THINGS HAPPEN
I found out that Ionic Breezes and competing products produce a small amount of ozone. In researching this I found out that in a large room it is not an issue, HOWEVER even in a small bathroom levels are unhealthy. An arcade cabinet is much, much smaller than the room size needed for an unhealthy concentration to be produced. I had run it for about 24 hours before finding this out.

Soooooo I turned it off and am hoping the ozone will slowly dissipate today. Either tonight or tomorrow (weather depending) I am going to take it outside and open it up to let everything dissipate, then remove the boards and wipe it down with bleach/water mix, let it dry, and varnish it per the suggestions linked by PL1 and as mentioned Malenko.


Here is an updated CPO mockup. I still have to move the start buttons and the move/fire art but for the layout of the pictures i like it much better. The ship is going to have a red ultimarc spinner for an eye instead of a trackball, I couldnt make the ship big enough for the trackball and didnt want it to look like o.O
EDIT 2: Updated pic again (again) with all controls visible.  The design is very close to being finished, May only need some minor tweaks for p4's joystick and p2's buttons spacing



EDIT: I'm also thinking of going with bright green T-molding. Here is a link to a pic, what do you guys think of this instead of black? http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/dentistofdoom/20120904_125822.jpg

[gr3yh47]

Edit: Whoops double post when meaning to edit previous post. Mod, please delete

[Malenko]

its too much mang 

I'd keep players 1 and 4 (far left and far right players) at 3 buttons a piece and players 2 and 3 (inside two players) with a SF layout. I don't think you need to label the start buttons, they sorta make sense or you can get button labels. I understand having move and fire on there from the original CPO, but I think you can drop those and the "start game"  , Heck I think I'd drop the "how to get double ships" thing from the bottom corner as well.

[DaveMMR]

The above should be included in the debate more often. It is absolutely genius imo and if i really want the 45 degree angle for 4 player games this can be mapped for those games and still allow me to play fighters with straight on sticks standing from the front instead of the side of the cp... maybe.

EDIT: Expanding on sloppy, quick response I made.

Unless you put physical markers on the floor, you should not assume people are going to stand directly square with angled control. Therein lies the problem with angling sticks. And that response you linked to was in regards to a thread "I angled my sticks but now I want to play 2-player Smash TV". 

Another problem is that even if you were to angle your sticks, your panel is square. People who insist on doing the angling do at least cut the panel so that it's parallel to the angling (i.e.  a half-octagon shape). If you angle yours, you're going to playing fighters, discombobulated, with the corner of the panel jabbing you and yours in the crotch.

But I see you updated your artwork (doesn't look angled). So let me move onto that:

Agree with Malenko - still a bit too much. And I still can't really get past the SF layouts being on the outside.
You would honestly have more room if you ditched the creature at the bottom and the black boxes, move the "main" (inside) players down, give them the bulk of the buttons, give 1 and 4 the small bank and place buttons in a Midway 4-Player layout (see Gauntlet Legends, NBA Jam, etc.) and any "analogs" (trackball, spinner) move above the sticks.

[yotsuya]

You think you want to angle those joysticks, but trust us, you don't.

[a1pharm]

First off:

CONGRATS! 

Welcome to a great hobby, that you can enjoy, and everyone that comes to your home can enjoy as well.  It's great to be able to share you hobbies with others.  I like that you are going with a 4 player layout, it makes it easier to entertain at your home.

Everyone on these boards that have a lot of posts really want to help, they may sometimes come off as brash, but they do have wisdom you can benefit from.

Your CP is unlike any other CP I've seen.  I like that you are tailoring it to your needs/wants, instead of someone else's convention.  That said, here are some thoughts I have had:

1. A lot of advice is telling you to put the Fighter config front and center, and you are resistant because you play non-fighter games.

2. You value adding the fighter configuration to your project, but don't mind the quirky ergonomics.  You say that people that enjoy fighters can just stand to the side.  This is so their necks won't be sore.  However, their backs and wrists will be sore with that non-ergonomic design.  If a lot of your friends have neck problems, but no back or wrist problems, your current design is great.  If your friends have no problems, your design is great.  If your friends have back problems or wrist problems, your design will harm them.

3. If you moved the fighter configs front and center, they will have buttons you won't normally use.  These extra buttons will just exist next to other buttons, not harming them in any way.  They may make your existing artwork layout be redone.  They will not interfere with the games you play at all.

4. When you configure your cab, 4 player games will work just fine.  Every fighting game will need a custom control config file, because you will need to direct the backend of MAME to link what you have configured as Players 3 and 4 (the fighter configs) to act as Players 1 and 2.  If you aren't a coding wiz, this will be impossible to achieve without someone who is a wiz.

5. Don't put 8 buttons on the fighter config, unless you plan to run SNES or later emulators on your machine.  At the most, you would need 7 buttons for fighting games.  Most however only need 5-6 buttons.  Reducing your button count will enable your CP art more real estate to wow your friends.

6. This is your CP and you don't have to do anything anyone tells you to.  We ARE trying to help you with your designs.  There are thousands of hours worth of expertise you can tap into for free.

Attached is a very rough idea of what you could do (ignore the 8th button on the fighter config).  Also, you may want the red button to be the top most button closest to the stick, as MAME configures this to be Button 1, which is the fire button for shooters.

Cheers!

[gr3yh47]

I had an entire post typed up, and my session expired so i had to log in when I hit preview and lost it 

I'm going to use a1pharm's post to address most of the suggestions that have come up. They are good suggestions, and I agree with some and have reasons for doing some things differently.

First off:

CONGRATS! 

Welcome to a great hobby, that you can enjoy, and everyone that comes to your home can enjoy as well.  It's great to be able to share you hobbies with others.  I like that you are going with a 4 player layout, it makes it easier to entertain at your home.

Everyone on these boards that have a lot of posts really want to help, they may sometimes come off as brash, but they do have wisdom you can benefit from.

Your CP is unlike any other CP I've seen.  I like that you are tailoring it to your needs/wants, instead of someone else's convention.  That said, here are some thoughts I have had:

Thanks a lot! I'm glad it has a unique feel, and thanks for the welcome. And just so all who give me advice here understand, I dont want to come off as brash either, even when I am disagreeing. Everyone has made me feel very welcome so far and I really appreciate all of the advice.

1. A lot of advice is telling you to put the Fighter config front and center, and you are resistant because you play non-fighter games.

3. If you moved the fighter configs front and center, they will have buttons you won't normally use.  These extra buttons will just exist next to other buttons, not harming them in any way.  They may make your existing artwork layout be redone.  They will not interfere with the games you play at all.

The issue with the fighter layouts isn't me not wanting to have 8 buttons in the front, but rather with me wanting fighter layouts to be convex buttons but wanting concave buttons to be front-and center. EDIT 3: Also, mag stick pluses on the 4-button layouts, much more appropriate for classics. Zippy's with circular restrictor (soon) on the fighters, much better for fighting games

2. You value adding the fighter configuration to your project, but don't mind the quirky ergonomics.  You say that people that enjoy fighters can just stand to the side.  This is so their necks won't be sore.  However, their backs and wrists will be sore with that non-ergonomic design.  If a lot of your friends have neck problems, but no back or wrist problems, your current design is great.  If your friends have no problems, your design is great.  If your friends have back problems or wrist problems, your design will harm them.

I am going with straight sticks thanks to a little chiding by Dave and a lot of reading, so when using the fighter layouts people can stand in front of the cab and use the fighter layouts straight on. The reach shouldn't be a problem but again I will be testing the entire layout with a piece of plywood.

4. When you configure your cab, 4 player games will work just fine.  Every fighting game will need a custom control config file, because you will need to direct the backend of MAME to link what you have configured as Players 3 and 4 (the fighter configs) to act as Players 1 and 2.  If you aren't a coding wiz, this will be impossible to achieve without someone who is a wiz.

I'm pretty solid with mame config, this wont be a problem. Worst case I will just manually map the controls the first time a given fighter gets played, NBD as it only takes like 30 seconds and only has to be done once for each fighter.

5. Don't put 8 buttons on the fighter config, unless you plan to run SNES or later emulators on your machine.  At the most, you would need 7 buttons for fighting games.  Most however only need 5-6 buttons.  Reducing your button count will enable your CP art more real estate to wow your friends.

I was actually thinking about this in the context of MAME today and nearly took them out of the plans BUT I do plan to run SNES, Dreamcast, Genesis, and others that will benefit from the layout so I have to leave them in.

6. This is your CP and you don't have to do anything anyone tells you to.  We ARE trying to help you with your designs.  There are thousands of hours worth of expertise you can tap into for free.

Attached is a very rough idea of what you could do (ignore the 8th button on the fighter config).  Also, you may want the red button to be the top most button closest to the stick, as MAME configures this to be Button 1, which is the fire button for shooters.

Cheers!

Thanks for the advice. I'm set on the fighter layouts being to the sides unless i find them uncomfortable in my testing. other than that i've taken a bit of what everyone has said and come up with this likely final draft. I really think just pulling out the move and fire text and flipping the p2 and p4 art made a huge impact and I'm really happy with the way it looks now

that response you linked to was in regards to a thread "I angled my sticks but now I want to play 2-player Smash TV". 

My point was that it is a clever way to rotate sticks 45 degrees in the software if it is desired. This way any player standing on the sides can have it set straight or angled based on personal preference and it kind of solves everyone's problems and really makes physically angled sticks almost entirely pointless.



Edit:
Right after I created this post, the Paradise Arcade shop order came in, minus the Zippy switch upgrades which they were out of, with a note that they would send them soon. Unfortunately they sent all concave buttons and as mentioned I ordered (and really want) convex buttons for the fighter layouts. I'll call them once it's a reasonable time in hawaii today. Their customer service is FANTASTIC through the whole process so far and I'm sure they'll make it right. All of the buttons in the big group on the left should be convex competition buttons.
Other than these minor setbacks it is really cool to see everything (minus the mag-stiks and i-pac 4) layed out and begging to be installed. And even with these buttons i should be able to move forward with my test panel.
UPDATE: I called Paradise and as expected, they are going to send me the correct buttons right away with a return label for the wrong ones. They are awesome.

Edit 2:
Unfortunately with no restrictor the zippy's plastic... thing that hits the switches and restrictor... it gets dug into badly by the metal plate. It's a real shame because they feel amazing for fighter motions with no restrictor but for now i will have to throw the square 8 way back on there until i can find a suitable plastic circle or octo restrictor that i can modify to fit these sticks. Or I might just have my brother in law machine me a metal version of the little plastic thing that hits the switches - anyone know if this would cause problems with the switch levers? like wear them out faster or something?

[Malenko]

i still say drop the "start game" and start button labels, and line those start buttons up. Also , the layout looks a little cramped, find an NBA Jam template and work with those stick's locations.

The good news is when you hate this layout in a few months, you'll just need to redrill a CP and get new art printed. Everyone designs a panel like this the first time, then asks for feedback, feedback is ignored, citing personal preference, panel is made. A while later OP posts how they should have listened and then does it the way suggested. At least you wont have buyer's remorse on the spinner, tron stick, separate 4way, and or trackball you bought and never used.

Here goes the need for 8 buttons:
Turbo Graphix 16, Master System, and NES only had 2 (plus start & select on NES)
SNES only had 6 ( you have a start button and select is very rarely used)
Genesis had 3 or 6 plus start, so its covered.
3DO had 3 plus start and select
NeoGeo had 4 plus start
DreamCast had 6 plus start
Playstation and Saturn did have 8, but very few games need all 8 buttons,of those games that did need 8 even less would be good to play on an arcade machine

so yeah 6 will cover you for pretty much any console game you want to play at an arcade machine. I'm a fan of the 7 button layout because the bottom row makes good for NeoGeo and the first 3 buttons on that row make an excellent NBA Jam style Jamma layout.

kinda like this:


obviously not to scale and everything isnt lined up exactly, but cut me some slack, Im at work.

[gr3yh47]

i still say drop the "start game" and start button labels, and line those start buttons up.

It looks too empty without the art there for my taste. I like the text and labels, especially since its the only art up there.

The good news is when you hate this layout in a few months, you'll just need to redrill a CP and get new art printed. Everyone designs a panel like this the first time, then asks for feedback, feedback is ignored, citing personal preference, panel is made. A while later OP posts how they should have listened and then does it the way suggested.

I get that you're trying to help but you make it sound like there is only one right way to layout a CP. I've taken some of the advice, and not taken some. it's just a bit different, and I think I've stated some good reasons for the things I am doing differently, NOT just citing personal preference.

so yeah 6 will cover you for pretty much any console game you want to play at an arcade machine. I'm a fan of the 7 button layout because the bottom row makes good for NeoGeo and the first 3 buttons on that row make an excellent NBA Jam style Jamma layout.

I want comfort and flexibility in the smallest space possible. the 7 button layout only saves space in your example because the 7th button seems uncomfortably close to the joystick. the 8 button layout gives players 2 options for 6 button positioning, 2 options for snk positioning, and many options for 3 and 4 button positioning, in about the same amount of space as a 7 button layout. In fact, your 7 button layout takes up more space than my curved 8 button layout for the buttons (same amount horizontally, much more vertically), and where you put your joystick the dustwasher will hit the red button when moving down or right

i mean good gravy from your post you'd think i was doing this :p



next update will be the plywood test.

[Malenko]

I want comfort and flexibility in the smallest space possible. the 7 button layout only saves space in your example because the 7th button seems uncomfortably close to the joystick. the 8 button layout gives players 2 options for 6 button positioning, 2 options for snk positioning, and many options for 3 and 4 button positioning, in about the same amount of space as a 7 button layout. In fact, your 7 button layout takes up more space than my curved 8 button layout for the buttons (same amount horizontally, much more vertically), and where you put your joystick the dustwasher will hit the red button when moving down or right

obviously not to scale and everything isnt lined up exactly, but cut me some slack, Im at work.

Its your cab, have at it. When you change it down the road don't post about it then you can just say how wrong I was As for the pic, yeah, Ive been to crap MAME and its a pretty obvious photoshop. And you can put the start button logos ON THE BUTTON instead of the art. No worries, I digress, I'm not gonna be the guy who gums up your project thread, but this is what a Galaga is supposed to look like:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129554.0.html
 

[gr3yh47]

Its your cab, have at it. When you change it down the road don't post about it then you can just say how wrong I was As for the pic, yeah, Ive been to crap MAME and its a pretty obvious photoshop. And you can put the start button logos ON THE BUTTON instead of the art. No worries, I digress, I'm not gonna be the guy who gums up your project thread, but this is what a Galaga is supposed to look like:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129554.0.html
 

Nice restore there. Someday I'll have a dedicated galaga cab myself... it's my grail too
I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if the layout doesnt work out and I really do appreciate all your suggestions. 

[micahman33]

NOOO!! I absolutely love that machine you are modifying. NBA on NBC was probably my favorite arcade game of all time. Unfortunately I havent seen anyone getting it to work well on MAME...I think Dreamcast emulator is the closest you can get without buying the actual board. Even though I dont really have the space for another arcade machine, it would be nearly impossible for me to turn down an original showtime/blitz machine.

Enough about me, good luck with the build!

[Le Chuck]

I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if the layout doesnt work out and I really do appreciate all your suggestions. 

We need more new users like you! Folks that maintain a positive outlook and realize we're trying to help not hinder. Taking advice is easy, gracefully turning it down is rarer and rarer. Kudos on a good attitude. You're okay in my book. 

[gr3yh47]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

I ended up selling the entire cab. it kind of escalated from trying to sell the working monitor and cpo, to the monitor breaking (needs a new flyback), to the guy being interested in all of the boards too... and i realized i didnt feel like getting inside with that smell, and taking all the boards out... and then i remembered what I've really always wanted was a showcase cabinet...

SO! the project has been re-worked quite a bit. It will be a pedestal arcade until such time as I have a basement, at which point it will become a full-fledged showcase cabinet (plans here). Plus the larger control panel will enable me to more comfortably fit the controls. The art will have to be reworked. Same controls per player as before but obviously more space between and in more accessible positions.

I already got the MDF and got it cut, although due to some error will have to re-cut the sides of the control panel box.  CP is drilled, I will have pictures soon.

Should I keep this thread going, or start a new one?

[SpaceHedgehog]

If it's going to be a completely new cab / build, I vote start a new thread.