a no front-end front-end.

[sandheaver]

I had an idea today at work that I thought was pretty effing excellent: control the emulation machine via a web browser.

So I boot the emulation PC, a web service starts, an http form or whatever, and from a simple app on my phone (or via the web browser on my phone) i visit a web page served by the emulation PC, and I see a form where I can select systems, genres, or whatever, then enter a rom name or select a game from a drop-down.  I do so, click "play" and the emulator starts on the PC and the game is available for play on the cabinet, as you'd expect.

If/when I select a new game, the current emulator is stopped, and a new one launched that is configured for whatever system & rom I've chosen.

At any time, from anywhere the webpage is accessible, you can see what game is playing, perhaps even capture a screenshot if you like, stop the current game, shut down the PC, start a new game, or whatever.

The best front-end is an invisible front-end.  I'm a purist, and even though I hate front-ends, I'm writing one and using it, because I don't want a single game per cabinet.

At first glance this seems pretty easy to do to me.  (I am a developer.)  I'm going to try to write this over the weekend.  Devil is in the details, and security would be an issue if this were exposed to the Internet; but nothing insurmountable, though, just have to do taint checking on the inputs and make sure things like "format d:" aren't tossed in there somehow.

I'm REALLY tired and this seems like a FANTASTIC idea.  I'm posting here so I can get feedback on this.  Good idea?  decent idea?  "dude are you high again" idea?

thank you.

[Nephasth]

I'm a purist.

If you were, you wouldn't be emulating.

Anyway, this sounds like over complicating things...

[sandheaver]

I'm a purist.

If you were, you wouldn't be emulating.

Anyway, this sounds like over complicating things...

on most (all -1) of my cabinets I am not.  But, again, there isn't enough room in my entire town to have one cabinet for each game.  Even purists must succumb to reality.  I need a machine that emulates.

This is a far simpler way to select games on an emulation machine than any other front-end I've seen, including my own.  The number of lines of code for this would be few indeed.  I have a very simple front-end written in C# and WPF, and I'm pretty sure I could get to < 300 lines of code with a web-based front-end.  May turn out to be false, but I've written looking glass software in Perl and in Java and exposed those via http, so I have some small amount of experience to back up my claim.

[yotsuya]

If you are high again, dude, pass it around.

[Howard_Casto]

Makes things astoundingly over complex if you ask me. 

If we are talking a very simple FE with just a gamelist and maybe a snapshot you can do that in any programming language in an afternoon.  All you need is the ability to read text, load images and then render said images and text.  Of course launching mame might be nice as well, but nearly every language has an equivalent of "shell"

On the other had a web interface means you have to deal with html/flash/java and god know what else which are NOT easy to program for... no drag-n-drop there.  Then of course you need to setup both a client and server side app to make the games launch able. 

In what way is that simpler?

[sandheaver]

Makes things astoundingly over complex if you ask me. 

If we are talking a very simple FE with just a gamelist and maybe a snapshot you can do that in any programming language in an afternoon.  All you need is the ability to read text, load images and then render said images and text.  Of course launching mame might be nice as well, but nearly every language has an equivalent of "shell"

On the other had a web interface means you have to deal with html/flash/java and god know what else which are NOT easy to program for... no drag-n-drop there.  Then of course you need to setup both a client and server side app to make the games launch able. 

In what way is that simpler?

well web browsers are ubiquitous, very common.  client is done.

web page can be just as simple as you like.  start with just mame & mess, you can get all the supported games from -listxml and with .NET you can rather easily filter that XML out by any information contained in the XML (orientation, resolution, year, manufacturer, .. anything) and render a drop-down in probably 15 lines of code.  (the .net feature linq is very powerful for that sort of thing.)

spawning the process to run mame is a bit more complex, but is done so often that MS has working example code on MSDN for just this use case.  So, I don't have to write that.

killing an existing mame instance can be done one of two ways, by getting a handle on the fullscreen mame UI and sending the ESC key, or by keeping track of the process ID and killing it via P/Invoke.  Both are about the same level of complexity and are maybe 15 lines each.

This just plays very well into my no-frills nature.  utilitarian.  whether or not i live with this "front-end" is another matter entirely, but i'm going to write it this weekend and try it.  if i like it, i'll expand the code greatly, do some fancy multi-select listboxes so I can refine the resulting game list, and probably toss up a ton of icons/buttons for single-click launching of the emulator.

I just hate the thought of a visible front-end on my cabinet.  I know that no one agrees with me, but to me it's 100% tacky. 

My ultimate goal, which I achieved quite easily 10 years ago via DOS & autoexec.bat, and is more or less impossible now, is to quickly boot directly into mame without a front-end at all.  boot into a single game that this cabinet will run for a long period of time.  when I wanted to switch games, I just switched floppies & pressed the reset button on the PC.  Ten seconds later the new game was running.  That's my ideal; modern operating systems make ten second boots effectively impossible.  I used to be able to do this with computers I found at yard sales for $0.50.  Now I have to do it with a pile of JAMMA boards.

This no front-end front-end will certainly not speed up the boot process, but it will hide a UI from anyone playing. 

Look, I'm weird about this.  I get that.  you all hate it.  I get that.  I'm doing it anyway.

[Howard_Casto]

It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it man, you come in insisting that it's simpler when it's infinitely more complex. 

[sandheaver]

It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it man, you come in insisting that it's simpler when it's infinitely more complex.

"infinitely" more complex?  "Infinitely?"  Really?  you chose that word?

...most definitely not infinitely more complex.  Far LESS complex than HyperSpin, and several others with a UI completely customizeable by anyone that knows HTML and/or JavaScript.  All of HTML5 is available to you, if you choose to use it, and we already should know that HTML5 can do 99% of what Flash can do, and 100% of what is useful. 

The only complex bits at all are the launching of the emulator and the killing of the emulator, and I've done both of this in other applications before, and sample code exists already in case I ever forget how to do it.  Doesn't get much simpler than copy/paste.

The rest is dead simple for anyone who has ever written any web stuff at all. 

I get that this would be more complex FOR YOU, but it is certainly not for me.

[yotsuya]

I recently picked up a gutted Tempest cab. No board, no vector monitor, nothing. I have a computer in it that has the OS hidden by Instant Sheller. It boots directly into AtomicFE, which is set up to boot directly into Tempest. You never see the FE. If Joe Compaq came over to my house to play some video games, there's no way he'd know it wasn't an authentic Tempest.

The added benefit. I hit some hidden keystrokes, and I go to a menu where I can play games that use Tempest's controls. I know it's there, but Joe doesn't.

If you want to write it, more power to you.

[DaveMMR]

I like the idea of a front-end on a separate screen - perhaps a cheap tablet nearby the cab. But the idea of fumbling with my phone in a browser to choose a game seems far more complicated than just exiting the game on the cab and choosing a new one. It's not like this is completely unlike a real machine. There are legit multigame cabs that have a somewhat similar system (those Namco remixes come to mind).

I see the desire for authenticity while enjoying the convenience of emulation. Someone had an idea in another thread where MAME ran in pure DOS and each game was stored on an individual thumbdrive with an autoexec.bat file directing it to auto start. That's a simpler, albeit still convoluted, way of maintaining a "front-endless" cabinet.

[Howard_Casto]

It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it man, you come in insisting that it's simpler when it's infinitely more complex.

"infinitely" more complex?  "Infinitely?"  Really?  you chose that word?

...most definitely not infinitely more complex.  Far LESS complex than HyperSpin, and several others with a UI completely customizeable by anyone that knows HTML and/or JavaScript.  All of HTML5 is available to you, if you choose to use it, and we already should know that HTML5 can do 99% of what Flash can do, and 100% of what is useful. 

The only complex bits at all are the launching of the emulator and the killing of the emulator, and I've done both of this in other applications before, and sample code exists already in case I ever forget how to do it.  Doesn't get much simpler than copy/paste.

The rest is dead simple for anyone who has ever written any web stuff at all. 

I get that this would be more complex FOR YOU, but it is certainly not for me.

Nope.  It's more complex for ANYONE.  Perhaps you don't know the difference between the words complex and difficult?  They aren't the same.  It might not be difficult for you to do, (For the record it wouldn't be for me either, perhaps with your low post count you a new and you aren't aware of who I am and what I've written for this community.  ) but there are a ton more hoops to jump through and steps to do, even if you "copy and paste" the programs still have to run in the way you have it designed, so it's more complex. 

And yes, relatively speaking it is infinitely more complex.  I can literally write a fe with less than 40 lines of code with more functionality then what you are trying to setup.  As long as I don't have to run it through a web interface that is. 

Also why are to talking about fe's like hyperspin and ect... they are literally the most convoluted and complex fes to setup and configure.  Check out mamewah, or game launcher or tons of the simplier fes.  Even that aside, I can't think of a fe off hand that won't let you boot directly into a game upon launch.  I think perhaps you did 2 minutes of research instead of really looking into this. 

Again, you seem to be getting defensive.  I'm not sure why. What you are going to find is that as a stand alone fe and not a neat feature for a fe, you are going to run into unexpected problems.  Off the top of my head, playing a marathon session of a particular game and then not being able to change to another because your phone went dead comes to mind.

[sandheaver]

It's not a matter of liking it or not liking it man, you come in insisting that it's simpler when it's infinitely more complex.

"infinitely" more complex?  "Infinitely?"  Really?  you chose that word?

...most definitely not infinitely more complex.  Far LESS complex than HyperSpin, and several others with a UI completely customizeable by anyone that knows HTML and/or JavaScript.  All of HTML5 is available to you, if you choose to use it, and we already should know that HTML5 can do 99% of what Flash can do, and 100% of what is useful. 

The only complex bits at all are the launching of the emulator and the killing of the emulator, and I've done both of this in other applications before, and sample code exists already in case I ever forget how to do it.  Doesn't get much simpler than copy/paste.

The rest is dead simple for anyone who has ever written any web stuff at all. 

I get that this would be more complex FOR YOU, but it is certainly not for me.

Nope.  It's more complex for ANYONE.  Perhaps you don't know the difference between the words complex and difficult?  They aren't the same.  It might not be difficult for you to do, (For the record it wouldn't be for me either, perhaps with your low post count you a new and you aren't aware of who I am and what I've written for this community.  ) but there are a ton more hoops to jump through and steps to do, even if you "copy and paste" the programs still have to run in the way you have it designed, so it's more complex. 

And yes, relatively speaking it is infinitely more complex.  I can literally write a fe with less than 40 lines of code with more functionality then what you are trying to setup.  As long as I don't have to run it through a web interface that is. 

Also why are to talking about fe's like hyperspin and ect... they are literally the most convoluted and complex fes to setup and configure.  Check out mamewah, or game launcher or tons of the simplier fes.  Even that aside, I can't think of a fe off hand that won't let you boot directly into a game upon launch.  I think perhaps you did 2 minutes of research instead of really looking into this. 

Again, you seem to be getting defensive.  I'm not sure why. What you are going to find is that as a stand alone fe and not a neat feature for a fe, you are going to run into unexpected problems.  Off the top of my head, playing a marathon session of a particular game and then not being able to change to another because your phone went dead comes to mind.

I'm getting defensive because you're attacking me and exaggerating while doing it, as if you're having fun. 

I know WTF I'm doing.  You don't know WTF I'm doing.  I was writing apps like this 15 years ago, tool apps which were available on the public internet and received tens of thousands of hits per day from people who needed these apps to run and to spawn processes on the local machine, and I've only gotten better in the interim.  I know WTF I'm doing.  You don't know WTF I'm doing, yet you talk as if you know more than anyone.  High post count means only that you do a lot of typing, it has nothing to do with anything else.  An idiot can type just as much as a genius, so post count says absolutely nothing.  I don't know where within that range you fall, and I don't think it matters where within that range you fall.

Yeah my phone battery will totally determine the usefulness, because no other device in my house has a web browser installed....   ... Even my PS3 has a web browser useful enough for this, nevermind any of the computers, phones or however many Nintendo DSi/3DS variations my kids have scattered around.

You're right, I don't know who you are, but I can tell you right now that you are not impressing me.  You make me want to leave this community.  Well done!  Was that your goal?

You've definitely succeeded in convincing me that front-end people are to be avoided.  FEs are tacky as hell and I'm halting all work on all FE work I'm doing.  So I guess you got what you were aiming for there.  Congratulations.  You won an argument on the Internet. 

[Endprodukt]

Wow. Don't you think you're over reacting? Well if you want to leave because one person knows better (and he does in case of emulation and Frontends as it seems) why do you post in the first place?

Howard does a lot for this scene so you may should listen and take a closer look at what he's trying to say.

[Nephasth]

I'm getting defensive because you're attacking me and exaggerating while doing it, as if you're having fun. 

I know WTF I'm doing.  You don't know WTF I'm doing.  I was writing apps like this 15 years ago, tool apps which were available on the public internet and received tens of thousands of hits per day from people who needed these apps to run and to spawn processes on the local machine, and I've only gotten better in the interim.  I know WTF I'm doing.  You don't know WTF I'm doing, yet you talk as if you know more than anyone.  High post count means only that you do a lot of typing, it has nothing to do with anything else.  An idiot can type just as much as a genius, so post count says absolutely nothing.  I don't know where within that range you fall, and I don't think it matters where within that range you fall.

Yeah my phone battery will totally determine the usefulness, because no other device in my house has a web browser installed....   ... Even my PS3 has a web browser useful enough for this, nevermind any of the computers, phones or however many Nintendo DSi/3DS variations my kids have scattered around.

You're right, I don't know who you are, but I can tell you right now that you are not impressing me.  You make me want to leave this community.  Well done!  Was that your goal?

You've definitely succeeded in convincing me that front-end people are to be avoided.  FEs are tacky as hell and I'm halting all work on all FE work I'm doing.  So I guess you got what you were aiming for there.  Congratulations.  You won an argument on the Internet.

Hoy soy! Anti-Casto!!


Bonus points to anyone who gets the reference.
 

[sandheaver]

Wow. Don't you think you're over reacting? Well if you want to leave because one person knows better (and he does in case of emulation and Frontends as it seems) why do you post in the first place?

Howard does a lot for this scene so you may should listen and take a closer look at what he's trying to say.

How can you say he knows more than I when you cannot quantify what I know?  I will not discuss this further.  You are clearly prejudiced against me in your opinion that he knows more than me.  You don't know what I do and do not know, and therefore you cannot make that statement in good faith.  You are biased, and your opinion is therefore moot.

[yotsuya]

You asked for opinions. I'm sorry you don't like the replies. Just code it anyway. 

[Endprodukt]

He made a Frontend and many other apps for this community , you did not (at least I never heard of them). I clearly wrote "as it seems". That's not a fact but my interpretation from your reactions. 
Biased? Of course. He gave us ts2 and mamehooker so he may be godlike. On a serious side: he gave you some fair input and his honest opinion. You're answer :I'm not coming back and people who made fe's are all the same. What the!?

[sudopinion]

This may help you in your quest sandy...
http://code.google.com/p/rom-jacket
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/413403/index.html

[Gray_Area]

Is this different than the Chrome browser porting (that happened a year or so back)?

[Le Chuck]

Sand, you know you can ignore users right? Why get all butt hurt when you can just block dissenting opinion. All you've done here is make us wonder why we'd want you in this community anyway. If you're going then peace be upon you, if you're staying then "Lighten up Francis"

[sandheaver]

Sand, you know you can ignore users right? Why get all butt hurt when you can just block dissenting opinion. All you've done here is make us wonder why we'd want you in this community anyway. If you're going then peace be upon you, if you're staying then "Lighten up Francis"

I'm going to start by ignoring you.  You've already insulted me more than anyone else here, in that single post.  Well done.

[Le Chuck]

Yeah, I have a way with words like that. 

[sandheaver]

I'm not going to read what you said, but it would not surprise me in the least if it could be considered a part of the general behavior that shrinks the arcade hobbyist community, year by year.

This community (not arcadecontrols.com specifically; the entire community) shrinks over time and people who crawl out of the woodwork to attack others are not helping.  Constructive criticism, rather than destructive criticism, should be encouraged.

So, keep it up with the brave comments such as name calling and soon we can eradicate the community entirely.

[Le Chuck]

I'm not going to read what you said, but it would not surprise me in the least if it could be considered a part of the general behavior that shrinks the arcade hobbyist community, year by year.

This community (not arcadecontrols.com specifically; the entire community) shrinks over time and people who crawl out of the woodwork to attack others are not helping.  Constructive criticism, rather than destructive criticism, should be encouraged.

So, keep it up with the brave comments such as name calling and soon we can eradicate the community entirely.

Step one of ignoring is not to take the bait FYI. 

Eradicate the community?  Do you want to compare new users brought to this community by our builds?  I'm no Sjaak or Ond when it comes to pulling out the lurkers but I've done my fair share of adding bodies to the community.  What have you added besides a snippy attitude and a holier than thou demeanor?  Lighten up Francis.  Stick around.  I'm not such a bad guy, just occasionally prickly.  You want an olive branch?  This is as close as you're going to get.  Take it or leave it. 

[yotsuya]

So, keep it up with the brave comments such as name calling and soon we can eradicate the community

The ones that stick around seem to be pretty thick-skinned when they ask for honest feedback.

[sandheaver]

So, keep it up with the brave comments such as name calling and soon we can eradicate the community

The ones that stick around seem to be pretty thick-skinned when they ask for honest feedback.

One can be honest without attacking.  It's a life skill all of you have, but choose not to use when on the Internet.  I don't know why some feel that it's OK to attack someone when they ask for feedback. 

[Endprodukt]

No one attacked you until you claimed we would. You got opinions and you didn't like them. That's not attacking.

[Vigo]

So, keep it up with the brave comments such as name calling and soon we can eradicate the community

The ones that stick around seem to be pretty thick-skinned when they ask for honest feedback.

One can be honest without attacking.  It's a life skill all of you have, but choose not to use when on the Internet.  I don't know why some feel that it's OK to attack someone when they ask for feedback.

[sandheaver]

.. fine.  what word?

[yotsuya]

Post #5: First salvo - read who fired it

"Look, I'm weird about this.  I get that.  you all hate it.  I get that.  I'm doing it anyway."

Up until then, all feedback was pretty honest, and not what you were looking for (and no one used the term "hate"). That chip on your shoulder probably blocked your view.

[sandheaver]

Post #5: First salvo - read who fired it

"Look, I'm weird about this.  I get that.  you all hate it.  I get that.  I'm doing it anyway."

Up until then, all feedback was pretty honest, and not what you were looking for (and no one used the term "hate"). That chip on your shoulder probably blocked your view.

fine, again, you all win.  i'm wrong.  i admit it.  now go away.  jesus christ.

[HaRuMaN]

[yotsuya]

Post #5: First salvo - read who fired it

"Look, I'm weird about this.  I get that.  you all hate it.  I get that.  I'm doing it anyway."

Up until then, all feedback was pretty honest, and not what you were looking for (and no one used the term "hate"). That chip on your shoulder probably blocked your view.

fine, again, you all win.  i'm wrong.  i admit it.  now go away.  jesus christ.

You are, without a doubt, the biggest ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- I have ever seen on this board.

[sandheaver]

You are, without a doubt, the biggest ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- I have ever seen on this board.

So brave.

[yotsuya]

So true. You can't take any sort of feedback that doesn't mesh with your "vision". Just code the ---smurfing--- thing and show us how wrong we all are.

[sandheaver]

So true. You can't take any sort of feedback that doesn't mesh with your "vision". Just code the ---smurfing--- thing and show us how wrong we all are.

I can take it.  I just don't appreciate the vitriol that's come with it.  So I used the word 'hate' when referring to my own interpretation; I wasn't hateful about it, I didn't attack anyone when I said it.  How is that word enough to light the fuse of "let's screw with sandheaver and her stupid frontend?"  How is that the first salvo, as you said?

I give up.  Banned or not I'm done with this forum and everyone in it, for a long time or forever.  My fault or not, I'm done.  I realize you don't care one bit, but maybe it'll make someone somewhere be a little less a-holeish at some point.

[Nephasth]

I realize you don't care one bit, but maybe it'll make someone somewhere be a little less a-holeish at some point.

They probably won't notice the ripple.

[yotsuya]

Dandro came in around the same time. No one's been harsh with him. We don't treat newbies poorly for the sake of it. You, my friend, came in with this big chip on your shoulder we all could all see from a mile away. Sorry no one is fawning over your idea, but it is what it is.

[HaRuMaN]

[Le Chuck]

Am I still being summarily ignored? Sandy, can you read me, over.