First Bartop (17" LCD, 2P)

[powtripp]

Design dimensions/angles inspired from:
http://bartoparcade.katorlegaz.com/
http://bartopmania.com/index.php?t=msg&th=45&start=0

Solidworks sketch:


Component List

Monitor (available):
Samsung Syncmaster 712n 17" Lcd Monitor

Computer (available options):

1) Desktop
AMD Athlon XP 3100+ (2.2 GHz)
EVGA NVIDIA GeForce 7950 GT 512 MB
2GB RAM

2) Asus Z96j Laptop
Intel Core Duo T2500 (2.00 GHz)
ATi x1600 256mb
1GB RAM

Front end: Hyperspin

Emulators: SNES, NES, N64, MAME, and others (less demanding than N64)

Encoder (probable): Minimus AVR board with the KADE firmware when it becomes available


I will be purchasing USB adapters for my SNES, NES, and N64 controllers. The arcade controls won't be used for the N64.


The amount of buttons is still unknown. I intend to have pinball buttons on the sides and front. The overall control panel layout is a work in progress. I want a sufficient amount of button with comfortable spacing. I am deciding on joystick selection as well.

Also, this arcade cabinet will be an inexpensive build on a tight budget. I am only building this because I have everything available to me, aside from joysticks, buttons, encoder, and a sheet of MDF.



Topic Mirror:
http://bartopmania.com/index.php?t=msg&th=262

[matsadona]

Maybe it is just the sketch perspective, but some angles seem pretty weird to me...

[powtripp]

Maybe it is just the sketch perspective, but some angles seem pretty weird to me...

Here is a right sideview screenshot for a better display of the angles:


CP angle is 12.5 deg. from horizontal.
Screen is 10 deg. from vertical, making the top 10 deg. from horizontal.


I will be changing dimensions to make it as compact as I can, essentially building from the inside out using rectangular shapes to represent computer parts.

[Unstupid]

Here is what i'd do... not saying you should... just throwing it out there...
where you see the red lines, I'd make sure those are all the same distance... around 1/4"  don't flush the top panel and the CP to the edge of side panel.  Also where you see the green arrows I'd add a radius equal to that if the radiuses fronting the marquee and the CP....  Just sayin'....

[powtripp]

Here is what i'd do... not saying you should... just throwing it out there...
where you see the red lines, I'd make sure those are all the same distance... around 1/4"  don't flush the top panel and the CP to the edge of side panel.  Also where you see the green arrows I'd add a radius equal to that if the radiuses fronting the marquee and the CP....  Just sayin'....

I wasn't sure how wide of a lip to have, but those are great suggestions. I'll adjust it to 1/4" and see how it looks.

Regarding the flush CP edge. The reason I like it flush is so players don't have to sit squared directly in front of the screen. If the CP is flush with the edge, a person's wrist or forearm won't be resting directly on the side panel lip, causing discomfort. I've also thought about slightly rotating both player 1 and 2 controls outward for this reason. With graphics, a line or box could display where the controls are squared to. Thoughts?

[Unstupid]

I've also thought about slightly rotating both player 1 and 2 controls outward for this reason. With graphics, a line or box could display where the controls are squared to. Thoughts?

If you do rotate the controls outward a few degrees I'd only rotate the buttons.  Keep the joystick square to the screen.   

[DaveMMR]

Regarding the flush CP edge. The reason I like it flush is so players don't have to sit squared directly in front of the screen.
If the CP is flush with the edge, a person's wrist or forearm won't be resting directly on the side panel lip, causing discomfort.

A person's wrist or forearm shouldn't be resting on the lip even if it isn't flush. Remember it's a joystick, and the player will be gripping it from the top. Try to mock this up and see how your hands lay when working the controls. Heck, even when typing on a keyboard. You shouldn't have your arms draped across the panel.

I've also thought about slightly rotating both player 1 and 2 controls outward for this reason. With graphics, a line or box could display where the controls are squared to. Thoughts?

Seriously, don't do that. At all. Wash that notion from your head. Not even "just the buttons" as unstupid suggested. You're just inviting a world of confusion into your home. And people do not read "instructions" or "arrows" or "hints". And it also looks really, really sloppy.

The truth of the matter is that bartops are hardly ideal for intense two-player games (i.e. fighters) no matter how you slice it. Can it be done? Yes. But it's going to be a mosh-pit in front of that screen no matter how you slice it. If fighting games are a priority, maybe look into separate panels that can plug into the machine or some other solution.

[powtripp]

You make good points, DaveMMR. I will keep everything square to the screen. If I want more space, I can always extend the CP box wider.

Here are updated screenshots with the 1/4" lip spacing (ignore the misaligned side buttons):

[powtripp]

I am having trouble choosing my joysticks, buttons, and encoder/controller. I would rather use only one of the website vendors.

- Which encoder do you recommend?
I can't find a Minimus AVR board in the US, so shipping cost has eliminated that option.

- What joystick is ideal for my setup?
I have favored the Roundhouse so far:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=produ ct_info&cPath=65&products_id=366
Need two sticks that aren't too expensive, but decent quality.

- Buttons?
I have no idea on these. There are so many types, I feel like concave makes the most sense for my first build. Are these the most common?

Just seeking some input, especially with the encoder now that I can't find a decent seller for the Minimus.

[PL1]

I would rather use only one of the website vendors.

That's a pretty big limitation to put on yourself.

You may not end up with the results you want trying to single-source everything for your build.

IMHO, the way to save money is to research and figure out what you want and need so you don't have to order replacement parts later when you figure out that another vendor has what you really want.

I can't find a Minimus AVR board in the US, so shipping cost has eliminated that option.

If you're looking for a plain Minimus AVR (no screw terminals -- soldering required), try here.

KADE will be releasing soon.

The U.S. Kickstarter rewards have already started shipping, watch here for news on the release.

Kevin (Sharpfork) from Denver, CO is in charge of North American KS rewards and orders after release.


Scott

[powtripp]

If you're looking for a plain Minimus AVR (no screw terminals -- soldering required), try here.

Went ahead and ordered this. Thank you for the link.
I don't mind soldering. I am looking forward to the new KADE firmware, looks interesting.


I changed my CP to match this layout:
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout/sega1_m.png

CP measures 9.1 x 20 inches.




After printing out a 1:1 scale CP on letter size paper, the controls seem to be tight, but manageable. I will use the template to test them out on cardboard once the joysticks and buttons arrive.

[PL1]

If you're looking for a plain Minimus AVR (no screw terminals -- soldering required), try here.

Went ahead and ordered this. Thank you for the link.
I don't mind soldering. I am looking forward to the new KADE firmware, looks interesting.

I hope you ordered two AVRs for this layout.

I see you have 2 flippers per side for pinball.

What are the 6 buttons along the top and the 2 on the front panel for?


Scott

[powtripp]

I hope you ordered two AVRs for this layout.

I see you have 2 flippers per side for pinball.

What are the 6 buttons along the top and the 2 on the front panel for?

I forgot about the limited inputs for the AVRs after adding more buttons. Time to eliminate the unnecessary ones.

I will probably drop back down from 8 to 6 gameplay buttons for each?

Top buttons for each player, was thinking Start, Select, Escape (only need one of these). I guess the pinball flippers could double as menu buttons for non-1P-pinball emulation.

I was intending for the front-face buttons to be coin credit buttons.

[JDFan]

I hope you ordered two AVRs for this layout.

I see you have 2 flippers per side for pinball.

What are the 6 buttons along the top and the 2 on the front panel for?

I forgot about the limited inputs for the AVRs after adding more buttons. Time to eliminate the unnecessary ones.

I will probably drop back down from 8 to 6 gameplay buttons for each?

Top buttons for each player, was thinking Start, Select, Escape (only need one of these). I guess the pinball flippers could double as menu buttons for non-1P-pinball emulation.

I was intending for the front-face buttons to be coin credit buttons.

IIRC the AVRs have 20 inputs so with 2 joysticks using 8 that leaves only 12 for the buttons and admin functions - so even 6 per side and the pinball and admin functions might require having 2 of them (or some creative setup of the programs to share the connections between buttons ) - In the long run may be better off going with the Ipac 2 (32 connectors) or Xin Mo (30 connectors) if you really want that many buttons (since your current layout shows 36 connections even those will require a few buttons sharing inputs (ie. P1 and P2 escape and select share 2 connections instead of 4, pinball buttons and admin buttons could be wired to share based on whether in pinball game or menu selection screen, etc.)

[PL1]

I forgot about the limited inputs for the AVRs after adding more buttons. Time to eliminate the unnecessary ones.

I will probably drop back down from 8 to 6 gameplay buttons for each?

Joystick + 6 buttons per player uses the 20 dedicated inputs.

You can set up the admin buttons using HWB for shifted functions or the Extended Mode wiring method shown here.

Top buttons for each player, was thinking Start, Select, Escape (only need one of these). I guess the pinball flippers could double as menu buttons for non-1P-pinball emulation.

I was intending for the front-face buttons to be coin credit buttons.

You could make the coin buttons act as select buttons for the console emulators.

The pinball emulators (VP and FP) are less configurable than MAME, so it's probably better to ensure the pinball functions are covered, then the console emulators, and finish with MAME.

Also, you'll need a ball launch/plunger button for pinball -- default key is enter.

Using the KADE firmware you can cover all wanted inputs.

20 Dedicated inputs:
8 inputs - Joystick (x2)
12 inputs - 6 Player buttons (x2)

10 Shifted inputs using HWB:  (10 still not used)
P1 Coin/Select
P1 Start
P2 Coin/Select
P2 Start
Escape/exit
Ball Launch/plunger
4 flipper buttons


Scott

[powtripp]

Thank you for the help. PL1, I've noticed you're very active here on the forums and I appreciate the help you have given me both directly on this thread and indirectly from other topics.

I have been doing way too much design, and not enough building.

- Finally purchased a sheet of 3/4" MDF ($30) and rough cut all the pieces with a skill saw. This will allow me to better handle the pieces on the table saw for more precise cuts.

- Took apart the monitor and started prepping it for black spray paint.


I am going a little overboard with these screenshots; trying to display my thought process as I finalize the design...

New CP:



- each player has a Start and Select, as suggested
- one button in the middle for Escape/Exit
- ordering another red button for computer power, placing it in the back most likely
- dropped the 2nd flipper button on each side, will just use one to control both flippers in pinball emulator
- ball launch/plunger on the front right face
- left button gives a symmetrical look and will be used with the other for some admin function or save/loading states in non-pinball emulators


Sideview of frame:


- would like to use hinges to open part of the back door where the motherboard will be attached
- lanning to attach the CP with magnets or a hinge
- top compartment will be hinged and used for storage of controllers and adapters (realize this can't open in the plans without some trimming)
- need to offset the screen border some to prepare for the plexiglass


Still determining...
- color scheme (solid black and button/joystick colors shown may be my choice for now)
- cheap set of speakers
- smart power adapter
- marquee light

[jeremy0203]

i like this size and form, very similar to what i would like to do with mine.

should upgrade the processor on your computer, hit up ebay for an athlon x2 64 5000+, should fit on there. swapping my athlon 64 3800+ from a craigslist computer with one i got for around $20. Or if you want to throw a 3800+ on there for a small bump in performance let me know and ill send you it once i pull it out.

[powtripp]

i like this size and form, very similar to what i would like to do with mine.

should upgrade the processor on your computer, hit up ebay for an athlon x2 64 5000+, should fit on there. swapping my athlon 64 3800+ from a craigslist computer with one i got for around $20. Or if you want to throw a 3800+ on there for a small bump in performance let me know and ill send you it once i pull it out.

I can send or post the dimensional plans when they're finalized.

Thank you for the offer regarding your old CPU. That would give a slight increase in performance. I'm almost afraid to take the CPU off and replace it with a new one....The motherboard is an DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 Ultra-D, surprised it's lasted this long. I am currently holding off on upgrading the computer, just trying to spend as little as possible with this first build.

[PL1]

I have been doing way too much design, and not enough building.

Great builds require great planning.   

- dropped the 2nd flipper button on each side, will just use one to control both flippers in pinball emulator

Umm, you know there are 3 categories of flippers for VP/FP, right.

1. Regular Flippers (Right and Left)
2. Upper Flippers (Right and Left)
3. MagnaSave (Right and Left)

Since no tables use both Upper Flippers and MagnaSave, you can combine 2 and 3 for a two button setup, or combine 1 and 2 for a one button setup -- only a problem for the Defender table which uses Upper Right Flipper for Smart Bomb.

If you combine 1, 2, and 3 for a one button setup, you'll use up your MagnaSaves before you need them.

BTW, there are only a handful of tables (7?) that use MagnaSave, so if you decide to stick with a one button setup for Regular + Upper Flippers, you won't lose that many tables -- hopefully you aren't a fan of Black Knight or Defender.


Scott

[jeremy0203]

i like this size and form, very similar to what i would like to do with mine.

should upgrade the processor on your computer, hit up ebay for an athlon x2 64 5000+, should fit on there. swapping my athlon 64 3800+ from a craigslist computer with one i got for around $20. Or if you want to throw a 3800+ on there for a small bump in performance let me know and ill send you it once i pull it out.

I can send or post the dimensional plans when they're finalized.

Thank you for the offer regarding your old CPU. That would give a slight increase in performance. I'm almost afraid to take the CPU off and replace it with a new one....The motherboard is an DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 Ultra-D, surprised it's lasted this long. I am currently holding off on upgrading the computer, just trying to spend as little as possible with this first build.

sounds good, would love to get em. Just let me know in the future if you want the CPU, I will have no use for it so might as well give it to someone who will.

[powtripp]

Resurrecting this topic for updates. Finally found the time and money to continue the project. Today I cut the MDF pieces with a jigsaw and skill saw, dissembled the bass portion of a speaker set, and received my KADE in the mail.




Buttons and joysticks from groovygamegear are scheduled to arrive shortly. Decided on red/white/blue themed buttons and went with blue/red fight sticks rather than ball tops.

[Caparo8bit]

how do you guys avoid the shadow from the speakers on the marquee???

[Caparo8bit]

Design dimensions/angles inspired from:
http://bartoparcade.katorlegaz.com/
http://bartopmania.com/index.php?t=msg&th=45&start=0

Solidworks sketch:


Component List

Monitor (available):
Samsung Syncmaster 712n 17" Lcd Monitor

Computer (available options):

1) Desktop
AMD Athlon XP 3100+ (2.2 GHz)
EVGA NVIDIA GeForce 7950 GT 512 MB
2GB RAM

2) Asus Z96j Laptop
Intel Core Duo T2500 (2.00 GHz)
ATi x1600 256mb
1GB RAM

Front end: Hyperspin

Emulators: SNES, NES, N64, MAME, and others (less demanding than N64)

Encoder (probable): Minimus AVR board with the KADE firmware when it becomes available


I will be purchasing USB adapters for my SNES, NES, and N64 controllers. The arcade controls won't be used for the N64.


The amount of buttons is still unknown. I intend to have pinball buttons on the sides and front. The overall control panel layout is a work in progress. I want a sufficient amount of button with comfortable spacing. I am deciding on joystick selection as well.

Also, this arcade cabinet will be an inexpensive build on a tight budget. I am only building this because I have everything available to me, aside from joysticks, buttons, encoder, and a sheet of MDF.



Topic Mirror:
http://bartopmania.com/index.php?t=msg&th=262

great just dont forget to make two cabinets

[powtripp]

how do you guys avoid the shadow from the speakers on the marquee???

That thought has not occurred to me. I actually have not planned how to attach the marquee, but I am leaving an extra 0.25 in. of depth for  it.

I am also stumped on the easiest way to build a monitor bezel without purchasing extra materials, like poster-board and plexiglas.

[matsadona]

how do you guys avoid the shadow from the speakers on the marquee???

Keeping the light source closer to the marquee than the speakers?

[PL1]

how do you guys avoid the shadow from the speakers on the marquee???

Keeping the light source closer to the marquee than the speakers?

That and/or mounting the light source higher so the shadow doesn't reach the marquee -- use white paint or reflective surfaces around the light and marquee are so more light makes it to the marquee.


Scott

[a1pharm]

how do you guys avoid the shadow from the speakers on the marquee???

Keeping the light source closer to the marquee than the speakers?

That and/or mounting the light source higher so the shadow doesn't reach the marquee -- use white paint or reflective surfaces around the light and marquee are so more light makes it to the marquee.


Scott

You could also use LED lights (I got some for my build off of ebay for $12 for 5M.  You could get away with 1 meter or less, and they are only ~1/4" deep.  The white paint idea Scott mentioned above is a superb way to reflect light around.  Many people use foil, and assume that will bounce the light around well, but white paint works WAAAAAY better.

[powtripp]

Dry fit is in progress. I elected to dry fit everything first and then go back with glue.



I now realize I most likely will not be able to attach all pieces from the inside.  I may just use gorilla glue for the attachments I can't reach. The back and bottom will be screwed in from the outside and screws will remain exposed to open the machine when necessary.

Next, I need to make angled cuts on the table saw and round some edges with the router. Two tools I am not as familiar with.


Update:
Buttons and joysticks have arrived.



Red, white and blue.... 'MERICA!

[powtripp]

Photo updates:

[mcseforsale]

subscribed.  I'm in the midst of one of these, too.

AJ

[powtripp]

What size holes do I drill for the Happ Fight Sticks?
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=288

I used 1 1/8 for my buttons (Arcade PRIME from GGG).

1 1/8 seems large for the joystick.
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Control_panel_hole_sizes

[PL1]

1-1/8" works fine for Happ Supers (2.16" washer) -- should be fine for the Happ Competitions, too.


Scott

[mcseforsale]

I did a 1" on my full-size and it was just a skosh small.  Stick with 1 1/8 for the Happ joys.

AJ

1-1/8" works fine for Happ Supers (2.16" washer) -- should be fine for the Happ Competitions, too.


Scott

[Rick]

Looking good! Keep up the good work.

[powtripp]

Mounted the PSU using zip ties as a bracket. The PSU is hanging underneath. I'll take pictures of the inside soon.






Drilled and assembled control panel. Two fans, one intake and one out mounted on the sides. Need to purchase covers for the fans and speakers. Bass has been mounted. I need to re-solder the bass wires.

*Edit*

Still determining the following:
- whether or not to use a smart powerstrip with computer as the controller
- wiring a button for the computer power (forgot to purchase an extra arcade button, so looking for an alternative rather than paying shipping again for a single button)
- marquee light
- marquee bracket/retainer

[powtripp]

20 Dedicated inputs:
8 inputs - Joystick (x2)
12 inputs - 6 Player buttons (x2)

10 Shifted inputs using HWB:  (10 still not used)
P1 Coin/Select
P1 Start
P2 Coin/Select
P2 Start
Escape/exit
Ball Launch/plunger
4 flipper buttons


Scott

I have reached the point where I need to decide how to configure the extra buttons with the kade controller. Currently, I am using all 20 regular inputs for P1/P2 directions and player buttons.

From what I understand, the "impossible combinations" would only give me 4 more buttons. I need 9.

Should I have just bought another Kade? Would implementing diodes be an easy route? I misunderstood what the toggle switch actually does.

I was under the impression I could trip both the toggle switch and a regular button in order to output a new key.

[PL1]

I have reached the point where I need to decide how to configure the extra buttons with the kade controller. Currently, I am using all 20 regular inputs for P1/P2 directions and player buttons.

From what I understand, the "impossible combinations" would only give me 4 more buttons. I need 9.

Should I have just bought another Kade? Would implementing diodes be an easy route? I misunderstood what the toggle switch actually does.

I was under the impression I could trip both the toggle switch and a regular button in order to output a new key.

There are several ways to approach this -- you may need to use more than one.

The easiest way is to use a second KADE, if you're willing to spend the money.
The second easist approach is to use the "backward wiring" trick for the MAME/Pinball overlap buttons. (this approach will work with the old extended mode firmware or the new firmware)



You can isolate the Upper Flipper/MagnaSave inputs (blue above) by using diodes like the right side of the diagram below.
The old extended mode (wiring diagram here) is configured for 25 outputs:
- 2 joysticks (8 inputs)
- 12 player buttons
- P1 Start
- P1 Coin
- P2 Start
- P2 Coin
- Cancel (ESC)
The HWB input acts like the shift button on your keyboard. (this approach only works with the new firmware)

Pressing just a letter key = lower case letter.
Pressing shift + a letter key = upper case letter.

There are two ways to approach shifted functions: dedicated HWB button (like the shift button on your keyboard) or using diodes to isolate the inputs for dedicated admin buttons.

If you use the dedicated HWB button, you will need to do a two button press like the left side of the diagram below.

If you want one button press dedicated admin buttons use diodes like the right side of the diagram below.


Thanks again to RandyT for this great diagram.   

Use shifted functions with care, since any other button you press at the same time will also output the associated shifted function.


Scott

[powtripp]

That was a very detailed and helpful post. Thank you. Just before I was about to spend more money on another encoder or tackle the diodes wiring schematic, I realized I had an old usb gamepad lying around:



I soldered the necessary connections and wired the remaining buttons. It turns out that wiring the encoder (with cat5) from a gamepad is much easier and neater than daisy chaining grounds. With JoyToKey installed, everything seems to be working correctly.

[powtripp]

The pinball button on the left side is interfering with the P1 joystick  . There isn't enough room for the long barreled button. I need a short button no longer than 1.5" included the microswitch. I will have to buy two buttons so the right side matches.

Any recommendations?

The current buttons are Arcade Prime (http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=350), so something similar would be nice.

[PL1]

I like to use Ultimarc Goldleaf buttons for flipper buttons -- just ordered a bunch more of them from Divemaster127.

The only potential downside is that Goldleafs are a lighter shade of blue than the Arcade Primes.
(Why no dark blue, Andy?   )

The IL pushbutton shown below is a bit shorter than the Arcade Primes by about the thickness of the button bezel.



Photo shows IL and Goldleaf buttons installed on 3/4" MDF.

Buttons are cheap and you're paying for shipping anyway, so get enough Goldleafs for all your flippers.


Scott