PS4 thoughts?

[sharpfork]

I expected an opinion or 37 would be posted here about the PS4 announcement.  I'm more of a Nintendo & xBox fan so I'm interested to hear what those who like them some Sony have to say about the announcement.  From a nuts and bolts perspective, I like the idea of x86 over cell but that is based on my potentially very wrong understanding that it will be easier to develop games for.

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[shponglefan]

My initial reaction: "meh".  Seems like more of the same, just faster and with shinier graphics.  Lack of backwards compatibility is a bugger, though, but I can understand why that's the case.

I wonder what the price is going to be like.  The PS3 moved a bunch of initial units based on hype alone.  I can't imagine the PS4 will carry the same level of hype at launch, though.  I wonder if Sony will try to be more competitive.

[northerngames]

I still say if there was no blue ray no GTAIV and no MGS4 on launch the ps3 would have failed if the xbox 360 had the same at the time.

for a awhile there that is all they had going for it even after launch.

what crack's me up is people paid $599.99 in a hurry to play the worst GTA ever made and was duped.

I actually played through metal gear solid 4 for the first time last week and never even seen it prior to that and it was def. a great game but a little too easy compared to it's priors.

that's another thing I dont care about the newer consoles 99% of the games are far to easy or I'm just that good anymore lol.

eventually I will have a ps4 but I dont pay more then 100 for any console period if it's not that much then I wait until it is.

never paid 300 for a new ps1 or 200 for gensis or ninendo or 300 for wii 200 for the DC 400 for 360 600 for ps2 etc. never jumped on the boat with any of them price's and never will.

now I have them all for less then the ps3 launch price alone 

[Malenko]

Didnt really want a PS3, GF bought me one for my birthday. Modded it and still never played it. If she buys me a PS4 I'll make her return it.

To quote Darth Vader, "Do not want"

[RandyT]

To quote Darth Vader, "Do not want"

When I saw the graphics quality of the environments in the teaser videos, I was very impressed.  Then, I watched the "philosophy of the machine" video and thought to myself "they can keep it".

I hope MS doesn't buy into this crap, or I'll be swearing off "next gen" consoles.

[Howard_Casto]

With any press conference you've got to ignore the b.s.  which means

1.  Ignoring graphical tech demos
2.  Ignoring anything that they don't actually show you but assure you that will happen. 


I know people are saying "ooh look at the graphics in the tech demo".  Yeah we've seen that before... remember the mind-blowing tech demos for the PS3?  Did they ever release a game that came close to looking that good?  I'm not picking on Sony about this though... EVERY hardware developer does this.  Hell the Zelda tech demo for the game cube looked better than some of the ps3 games today.    I expect the system to have better graphics naturally, but we won't know how good until a really good, first party title is actually released and out on the system. 

It's no secret that I'm not fond of Sony, be it their hardware, software, or philosophy, so keep that in mind but...

They blatently ripped off every good idea from the Wii U, which is a typical Sony move, so I wasn't suprised.  The bad thing though is they seemed to get everything a little wrong.  Like remote play on the Vita.  Nobody wants the Vita and even if they did, the PS4 is going to be so expensive that you really aren't going to want to fork over another 200 bucks just for remote play.  I also have doubts about universal support unless they do something at the OS level.  Nintendo put the screen in the default Wii U gamepad, which forces developers to at least use it in some way.  Optional accessories, no matter who makes them, rarely get support.  The new controller, while definately superior to the dual shock just looks like they threw a random mess of tech on it, ripping off elements from the ouya, the wii u gamepad, ect (not necessarily the good elements either) and still insisting on using the broken ps eye tech that uses visible light tracking instead of ir.  It is an impovement if only for the fact that holding it won't give you hand cramps, but I wonder how much that mess of a controller will cost considering you KNOW that after a month or so no developer will take advantage of anything other than the buttons and sticks.   Then again if you are a Sony consumer you are already willing to pay way too much for your hardware, so maybe that's irrelevant. 

The other thing that sent up a warning flag to me is the fact that they obviously don't have the hardware in production yet.  Typically if you are expecting a big launch you start making the console almost a full year before it's supposed to hit shelves.  Well they say they want to release it this fall and yet they haven't even finalized the case design yet.  That's a really bad sign that either it won't be released this fall, or the console will be shoddily producded.  Consoles that were rushed to production or had last minute changes include the NES (faulty cart connector) and the 360 (RROD).  Regardless of if it will be delayed or have faulty hardware, it's bad news for the end user either way. 


So to sum up, they didn't really show anything all that new or innovative and their vagueness this late in the game concerns me.  Maybe they'll make a better showing at E3.   

A price point and a showing of the actual, finalized, hardware is required to make any kind of real judgment. 

[hypernova]

And of course, now MS is more or less pressed to rush their system, too.  This entire generation could be a fail all around.

Regarding the PS4-what is the point of the touch screen?  It looks so small, what can you possibly do on that thing that would make your gaming experience better?  Seems like it would only hinder us by developers (if they bothered to even utilize it) forcing us to use something that would detract from the experience.

[Howard_Casto]

And of course, now MS is more or less pressed to rush their system, too.  This entire generation could be a fail all around.

Regarding the PS4-what is the point of the touch screen?  It looks so small, what can you possibly do on that thing that would make your gaming experience better?  Seems like it would only hinder us by developers (if they bothered to even utilize it) forcing us to use something that would detract from the experience.

Well like I said in my reply, this is typical Sony.  They see another company doing something (in this case, the doomed to fail Ouya) and copy it.  They never bother to think about if they need the tech, why the other people needed it, and what they are going to do with it if included.  It makes sense to have a little touch pad on the ouya.... 90% of it's lineup is going to be android tablet games, and they need a make-shift pointing device for compatability.  Sony, on the other hand, doesn't need such a feature for the ps4, especially considering that they already have a pointing device (the move). 

[shponglefan]

Regarding the PS4-what is the point of the touch screen?  It looks so small, what can you possibly do on that thing that would make your gaming experience better?  Seems like it would only hinder us by developers (if they bothered to even utilize it) forcing us to use something that would detract from the experience.

Is it a screen?  I thought it was just a touch pad... regardless, I don't get it either.  Touchpads can be extremely useful in the right context, but slapped on the face of a controller makes little sense.  It just seems like it would be awkward to use.

[Howard_Casto]

It's a touch pad, not a screen.  It makes about as much sense on a controller as what I affectionately call "the reach-around pad" on the bottom of the Vita. 

[Ginsu Victim]

It's so you can "slide to unlock" your phone in games....and that's all. 

[sharpfork]

Thanks for the thoughts.
After reading what y'all have to say + the general media vibe, I'm most excited about this thing coming out so the price of used PS3s will drop.

[ark_ader]

The problem with buying new consoles, is the capability of the programmers ability to code something of worth that represents the value spent.

Looking at the games now for the PS3 and the Xbox 360 versus when the consoles arrived on the scene is completely different.

The PS4 switching to a CISC makes perfect sense.  It allows PC coders to transition to the new console, without having to relearn the new architecture.

Having the PS4 in line with cross platform capability for online games will make the console a much better option for games than PC games, where hardware rules the experience.  Steam will be behind this.

The backwards capability served by online streaming makes perfect sense, and something not lost on Microsoft. Something we will see when Android makes a entry into the console market.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 have 2-4 more years of life left.  The PS4 will take 2 years before Sony can make the console smaller, and more economical to mass produce. 

The PS3 and Xbox 360 is still a media centre centric device, and something that Sony and Microsoft will exploit in the coming years.

Expect a shortage of PS4 units this Christmas.

[Howard_Casto]

I agree with your first statement.  It's all about the software. 

To be fair, the 360 had some good games when it was first released while the ps3 did not.  Hell the ps3 didn't have a solid library of good games until years after it was released.  The Wii (and more recently the Wii U) also had a really strong launch lineup.   


So in other words you are saying they fixed the massive mistakes, in terms of architecture, that they made with the ps3.  Imho taking a broken system and fixing it isn't an upgrade, it's a repair... but that's just me.  Don't get me wrong, the new x86 architecture is a very good thing, I agree with you, but it isn't impressive or noteworthy considering it has been the standard for every other company for a while now.

Backwards capability served by streaming is what OnLive and to an extent Game Tap did.  Although both companies technically still exist, they've both gone bankrupt once already.  Streaming from the net is great when you have a fat pipe, but unfortunately a large majority of the US still has sub-standard internet speeds.  Also I don't see how you can say it makes perfect sense.  To the company it does, they can sell you vapor, but to the consumer it's about as good an idea as horse armor dlc.  Now via downloadable emulators, where your connection speed isn't as big a deal, sure, but not streaming. 

I'm not sure why we are talking about it anyway.  This argument came up when the wii u was about to launch.  Backwards compatability means jack and squat to most people, it's a nice feature to have, but in no way effects the popularity or quality of a console.  Nobody expected the SNES to play NES carts and yet it sold just fine. 

Cross platform capability probably isn't going to happen, or at least not to a significant degree.  Remember what I said about having to filter out the b.s. in these conferences?  You are never going to see, for example a xbox owner playing a game with a playstation owner.  The reason isn't technical limitations or anything like that, but rather the fact that Sony and Microsoft would never allow it.  Right now Ubisoft has a fully-completed Wii U game that they can't release for 8 months because Microsoft has a hissy fit if any other console gets a multi-platform game released first.  So yeah, cross platform online gaming isn't going to happen.  PC gaming is largely irrelevant at this point... 90% of your online gaming (with the exception of rpgs) is done on  a home console so being able to play with pc gamers is a worthless feature in this day and age. 

Yeah if it's actually released on time I would expect a shortage, because, as I said, they should already be in production by now and yet it's clear that they aren't. 


I'm not trying to argue, I'm just putting a more realistic perspective on your points, which are quite valid.

[SithMaster]

I'm surprised by the leap in system ram compared to current gen systems but it won't help with the trend to make really shiny graphics at the expense of gameplay.  My prediction is increased cost for games because the industry claims they need to cover the cost of developing games that are visually stunning to please consumers.  It would have been more interesting if they made the blu ray drive external, kept the current dualshock controller, and kept the move as a separate input device to keep costs down for consumers.  Adoption rate could benefit from a perceived value in upgrading.

Right now Ubisoft has a fully-completed Wii U game that they can't release for 8 months because Microsoft has a hissy fit if any other console gets a multi-platform game released first.  So yeah, cross platform online gaming isn't going to happen.  PC gaming is largely irrelevant at this point... 90% of your online gaming (with the exception of rpgs) is done on  a home console so being able to play with pc gamers is a worthless feature in this day and age.

Rayman was supposed to be an exclusive to wiiu and never be multiplatform.

[hypernova]

It's a touch pad, not a screen.  It makes about as much sense on a controller as what I affectionately call "the reach-around pad" on the bottom of the Vita. 

Ah, well then it's even more useless.  I can see the games now...scribble a "pen" back and forth on that tiny pad canvas...that's about the only thing I can see that thing doing reliably.

Oh yes, the streaming games thing...Does Sony realize that some people in this great nation of ours are limited by our ISP?  Movies are already a drain on ISP bandwidth caps.  What do you think a 20ish GB game is going to do if you play them constantly?  Obviously the entire 20 GB isn't streamed at all times, but my guess is it'll add up quick.  And that's assuming people's connections can handle that quality.  Which as already noted, most cannot.  Our network infrastructure is not like Japan or a highly populated section of Europe.  Hello buffering!  Come to think of it, do you think they're setting that streaming part of it up because of the Japanese network?

[ark_ader]

Well streaming can play an important role in the future where we see a standard display (not HD) and a decent catalogue of games.  The problems are bandwidth and the dependability of servers.  Personally I think it is just a stop gap measure to answer critics.  The uptake on that facility will be minimal, and the PS3 and PS4 will become separate entities.  I mean the PS2 had a long life and there is nothing stopping Sony producing those lame 12GB models for the next 10 years.  Same goes for those 4GB Xbox 360.

I think back when I had 512K broadband and I thought it was super fast.  Now with fibre and 70mb+ starting to appear in the UK, I wonder how many years it will take the USA to catch up. 

[DaveMMR]

Console announcements are getting less and less exciting (at least for me). It's been "more of the same" for a while - familiar gameplay with perhaps a few more coats of polish. The big innovations have been nothing more unique controllers that just get in the damn way of otherwise fun games.

I guess that's why I'm falling way behind on my consoles and my reaction to the PS4 announcement was just 'ehh' the whole time. 

[knave]

It's hard for me to get excited over the PS4 when I dont use my PS3 enough to justify the $200 I paid for it, I got a great deal, it came with 6 games but I don't play it. I used it for netflix for a while but the Roku does a better job. I was happy to get the Wii, great for the kids, and I was able to play a bunch of gamecube games I had missed. Xbox 360 was ok, I bought it when it was the only console on the block that could do netflix, bought 40 or so games have played 5 of them. But I play Lego indiana joned with the kids all the time and that makes it worth it.

Bottom line no PS4 for me unless it has something groundbreaking and is $200.

[rlemmon]

I can honestly say that I'm not interested in it at this point. There's no games in the launch that light my fuse and we all know how well sony launch consoles hold up. I bought a ps 3 just to play the twisted metal reboot and it was a crapfest. I wish sony had some better exlusives. I would love to see a proper crash bandicoot game that was true to the original series on the ps 1. That might make me burn some dough. Hell They dont even really have a platforming mascot anymore unlesss you like ratchet and clank but they are a bit lackluster to me. Ya there kinda cool but theres no real heart to them.

[danny_galaga]

There are a couple of offline games that interest me on the PS3, so in a year or so I might buy THAT    Certainly not PS4 yet. Give it ten years...

[rCadeGaming]

I can't wait for the PS4 to come out.  I'm going to get a bunch of super cheap PS3 games when Gamestop starts liquidating them.

There are still excellent NES games I need to play.  I think I'll worry about that before paying a whole bunch of money for a new system with a library that's just starting.

And streaming gaming is a terrible idea.  I don't want to permanently lose money to temporarily have a game.  I don't even like DLC games because I don't have a physical disc.

[SithMaster]

I can't wait for the PS4 to come out.  I'm going to get a bunch of super cheap PS3 games when Gamestop starts liquidating them.

There are still excellent NES games I need to play.  I think I'll worry about that before paying a whole bunch of money for a new system with a library that's just starting.

And streaming gaming is a terrible idea.  I don't want to permanently lose money to temporarily have a game.  I don't even like DLC games because I don't have a physical disc.

The industry seems to be moving towards games as a service not a product.  The major problems with that are: lose access at any time (they feel like it, power outage,internet down), they can change content like modifying art assets,require you to constantly update otherwise you cannot play the game until you do, and you cannot resell your access to the content.  That last bit of course doesn't apply to European Union countries after a somewhat recent court ruling.

[sandheaver]

Regarding the PS4-what is the point of the touch screen?  It looks so small, what can you possibly do on that thing that would make your gaming experience better?  Seems like it would only hinder us by developers (if they bothered to even utilize it) forcing us to use something that would detract from the experience.

It's too small to be useful for anything other than gestures.  Which, alone, would make sense, but there's a whole other 20 buttons or so on the controller for controlling things, plus motion and orientation detection.

I'll still be buying a PS4.  I will never buy an MS gaming device for as long as I live, and no one will ever convince me to change that position.  This information would be a surprise to people that know me, because I'm a full-on Microsoft fan-girl otherwise.  This information will also surprise people that know me, because for nearly 10 years I ran Linux exclusively for desktops & servers.

[rCadeGaming]

The industry seems to be moving towards games as a service not a product.  The major problems with that are...

That's bull****.  Not what you're saying, I agree with you, I just mean the direction of the industry.  I'm not really concerned about my internet connection, their servers being overly busy or having outages is a concern, but the biggest problem is that the servers won't be up forever.  At some point the console's life cycle will be over, and it won't be profitable to offer the service anymore.  Then what?  If you planned on having a long-term collection you might be screwed.

Once again, the industry, like so many others, is catering to the casual crowd who doesn't think about these things, rather than hardcore community who really appreciates the medium just because the casual crowd is the larger and therefore more profitable market.  I'm no communist, but unrestrained capitalism is a b***h sometimes.  I wish the industry was structured so some of the actual game designers who actually care about the games and the players had some more control, rather than heartless executives who see it purely as a profit/cost equation.

Unless they finally offer a legal option for permanent storage at some point, it will once again be the "hackers" and "bootleggers" who must be responsible for archiving our media for future generations.

I will never buy an MS gaming device for as long as I live, and no one will ever convince me to change that position.

That's pretty silly.  If any console has a few great exclusive titles (as every major console has), it's worth buying once the price is low.

[DaveMMR]

I will never buy an MS gaming device for as long as I live, and no one will ever convince me to change that position.

Just curious as to the reason for that.

Not that I fault you for that stance. I knew a couple of people who just didn't like MS. And myself, there's little if anything on the Xbox/360 that necessitated me running right out and getting one so I'm definitely not much of a supporter.

[rCadeGaming]

If you're into shmups, the 360 is a must own, preferably a japanese 360 if you're that hardcore.  Other than that genre, I guess there's not a wealth of exclusives that I'd be into myself. 

I guess if you don't see anything then it's not for you, but your decision should be based on the game library more than anything else.  Even if you don't like a controller, there's converters and arcade sticks and such.

[sandheaver]

I will never buy an MS gaming device for as long as I live, and no one will ever convince me to change that position.

Just curious as to the reason for that.

Not that I fault you for that stance. I knew a couple of people who just didn't like MS. And myself, there's little if anything on the Xbox/360 that necessitated me running right out and getting one so I'm definitely not much of a supporter.

Well, what gets me angry every time I think about it is that you have to pay a monthly fee to play online.  This is an absolutely ridiculous requirement in my eyes and I will never never buy any MS gaming hardware until that requirement goes away (never.)  Effectively you're paying a fee to enable a network interface.  Pure lunacy.

The rest of it is little things that are pretty petty, honestly.  I don't like the look of the console, or the UI (when are they going to pick a UI and just keep it?), the d-pad is beyond terrible, though the rest of the controller is pretty great, proprietary Bluetooth stack, so I can't use a generic BT headset, etc.  Not one single person I know over the age of 12 who owns a 360 bought it because they liked it; they all bought it because it what their friends had and they want to play with their friends.  XBL is full of 8 year old kids who claim to have intimate knowledge of everyone else's mother's sexual escapades, and who call every male the N word, and hit on every person they suspect might be female.  XBL is like a zoo for latch-key children.

The whole platform is repugnant.

Oh, I don't expect anyone to agree with me.  Every platform has its virtues, probably even the 360, somehow.  These are my opinions and they won't agree with yours.  Don't take that to mean that I don't like you, reader, or that I won't agree with you on other things.

[DaveMMR]

Fairly logical reasons. Well except the controller. I think every controller made after the SNES controller is too complicated/asymmetrical/unwieldy/uncomfortable/odd-looking/etc. so I couldn't agree that's it fair to single the 360's out.  But the SNES pad - perfection!

But I think the whole console industry is turning me off to new consoles. It's like SithMaster said: games are becoming more of a service you pay for than something you own. On my shelves, I have games upwards of 35 years old that I can play right now without any hassle. But how many digital games that I own and paid for will work 10 years from now? Or even 5?

(Consequently, I don't consider any digital games as part of my permanent collection when cataloging them.)

Though, it's fair to say there are services now where you can still play many titles offline even if digitally distributed. But that's all changing - especially if EA and their Origin have any say.

[sandheaver]

Fairly logical reasons. Well except the controller. I think every controller made after the SNES controller is too complicated/asymmetrical/unwieldy/uncomfortable/odd-looking/etc. so I couldn't agree that's it fair to single the 360's out.  But the SNES pad - perfection!

But I think the whole console industry is turning me off to new consoles. It's like SithMaster said: games are becoming more of a service you pay for than something you own. On my shelves, I have games upwards of 35 years old that I can play right now without any hassle. But how many digital games that I own and paid for will work 10 years from now? Or even 5?

(Consequently, I don't consider any digital games as part of my permanent collection when cataloging them.)

Though, it's fair to say there are services now where you can still play many titles offline even if digitally distributed. But that's all changing - especially if EA and their Origin have any say.

For the games of the day, the 360 controller is quite good (minus the d-pad.)  I agree in that nothing will ever trump a nintendo D-pad.  Nintendo should license their d-pad patents to sony in the interests of advancing gaming. (---fudgesicle--- the 360.)

The games that come out now are not as good.  The industry does seem to find ways to turn people off of it, the logic of that escapes me completely; it must be a cash grab to ride the trends and forget about the tried & true game styles.

Subscriptions are just that.  I don't have any newspapers from 5 years ago and I don't expect I'll have any games or services which I subscribe to now in 5 years. 

Origin can eat it.  Steam is lovely, and if EA were interested in treating its customers properly, Origin would have never been imagined, written or released.  Its mere existence is proof of nefarious intentions, IMO.

[Malenko]

The rest of it is little things that are pretty petty, honestly.  I don't like the look of the console, or the UI (when are they going to pick a UI and just keep it?), the d-pad is beyond terrible, though the rest of the controller is pretty great, proprietary Bluetooth stack, so I can't use a generic BT headset, etc.  Not one single person I know over the age of 12 who owns a 360 bought it because they liked it; they all bought it because it what their friends had and they want to play with their friends.  XBL is full of 8 year old kids who claim to have intimate knowledge of everyone else's mother's sexual escapades, and who call every male the N word, and hit on every person they suspect might be female.  XBL is like a zoo for latch-key children.

I liked the Blade UI, the one between blade and the current was better than the current, so I agree with you there. The Dpad, its not abysmal but its not great either, fortunately I rarely use it. As for XBL being full of immature underaged children acting like cockholes...........PSN isnt any better, most random PC servers for a ton of games are the same as well. You cant blame the MS console, just terrible parenting. I havent bought many digital games unless you include steam (and by extension, humble indie bundles).

I bought my 360 mostly for Forza but I dont regret getting it one bit (despite multiple RRoDs  )

[DaveMMR]

As for XBL being full of immature underaged children acting like cockholes...........PSN isnt any better, most random PC servers for a ton of games are the same as well. You cant blame the MS console, just terrible parenting. I havent bought many digital games unless you include steam (and by extension, humble indie bundles).

You know, the only game I spend a lot of time online playing is Team Fortress 2 and 90% of the time, I feel like I'm playing with mature adults. The random, attention-seeking, hyper racism spewing pre-teen is often dealt with in a quick manner. For the most part, I'm not big on playing on-line otherwise.

The games that come out now are not as good.  The industry does seem to find ways to turn people off of it, the logic of that escapes me completely; it must be a cash grab to ride the trends and forget about the tried & true game styles.

As a 80's child, I take pride in my collection of Activision 2600 carts and my EA "album cover" C64 games. These companies were the radical innovators at the time, turning their talent into minor celebrities (David Crane, Bill Budge, Carol Shaw, et al). And then I get bummed when I realized that, years later, they've become the "bad" companies - just churning out the same game over and over again (Call of Duty), placing profit over product and, with Origin, making your games unplayable without a otherwise needed internet connection.

And everything has to be a damn "movie" nowadays. Even Mario Galaxy, a friggin' "Mario game", needed to set up this stupid plot before you can do anything remotely fun.

Wow - I sound like a crotchety old man right now. 

Subscriptions are just that.  I don't have any newspapers from 5 years ago and I don't expect I'll have any games or services which I subscribe to now in 5 years.

Yeah, apples and oranges there. I'm not even talking about MMORPG's either. SimCity (which I, shamefully, bought), will be useless in a few years when EA decides that it's not worth keeping the servers going even if you just want to play single-player (which is what SimCity is traditionally). I can still boot up SimCity 2000, 3000 and 4 meanwhile...

Origin can eat it.  Steam is lovely, and if EA were interested in treating its customers properly, Origin would have never been imagined, written or released.  Its mere existence is proof of nefarious intentions, IMO.

I only have Origin by virtue of the aforementioned SimCity (poor investment) and also because it came with another free game due to the server problems. But everything else PC-gaming is on Steam (a service that allows you to play many of the games "offline".)

This is all pretty much why I just lost that excitement for newer hardware these days. Kind of sad to lose that "anticipation" I once had for, as examples, the SNES or Sega CD (foolish I know).

[shponglefan]

The games that come out now are not as good.

I often see gamers (particularly gamers from the 80's/90's) make this claim, but I don't think it's actually true.  I think like any form of media, you tend to form a baseline around stuff from a particular era you grew up with.  And then you either get more of the same or you get stuff which is too different; either way it's never going to measure up.  Rose-coloured glasses don't help either.

IMHO games are just as good as they've ever been, and especially with digital distribution, we have vastly more choice than we've had before.  IMHO, since the 2000's, it's been a bit of a golden age for gaming.

[sandheaver]

The games that come out now are not as good.

I often see gamers (particularly gamers from the 80's/90's) make this claim, but I don't think it's actually true.  I think like any form of media, you tend to form a baseline around stuff from a particular era you grew up with.  And then you either get more of the same or you get stuff which is too different; either way it's never going to measure up.  Rose-coloured glasses don't help either.

IMHO games are just as good as they've ever been, and especially with digital distribution, we have vastly more choice than we've had before.  IMHO, since the 2000's, it's been a bit of a golden age for gaming.

Well, no argument at all about digital distribution.  SO much better, now.

Maybe I am viewing this with a bit of a skew, but games today are far, far more complex than is required to have fun or to waste time on.  I draw the line at tutorials; If your game has a tutorial that is required to play effectively then you've moved from game to hobby.  There's nothing wrong with that!  Hobbies are fine ways to spend your time, but if you spend 6 hours a day on CoD then you are no longer gaming.

My earlier statement "games that come out now are not as good" is neither true nor untrue; it's an opinion.  How we define games today, though, has definitely turned away from the spirit of gaming, in my mind.

I don't know.  Maybe I'm wrong and everyone thinks hobbies are games and that calling something a "game" is a fine way to describe their activities.  I think the definition of "game" has spread far too thin, and in that scope, I do believe that the games that come out today are not as good.

[DaveMMR]

I draw the line at tutorials; If your game has a tutorial that is required to play effectively then you've moved from game to hobby

I remember Driver for the original Playstation: forced tutorial that required you to already be good at the game in order to proceed (very, very strict 'pass conditions'.) I had more dedication back then even though I failed over and over and over. If I were playing it today, it'd be turned off after the 10th fail and would never see the light of day again.

[Malenko]

I draw the line at tutorials; If your game has a tutorial that is required to play effectively then you've moved from game to hobby

I remember Driver for the original Playstation: forced tutorial that required you to already be good at the game in order to proceed (very, very strict 'pass conditions'.) I had more dedication back then even though I failed over and over and over. If I were playing it today, it'd be turned off after the 10th fail and would never see the light of day again.

---fudgesicle--- that game and the ---smurfing--- parking garage.

I borrowed my friends game shark thing to cheat to get past the forced tutorial just to play the damn thing.

[SNAAKE]

^ mad..

driver was a good game. at the time it was one of the best

[rCadeGaming]

Agreed.  Far better than any GTA garbage.

[DaveMMR]

Agreed.  Far better than any GTA garbage.

Really now? I find it hard to believe that a closed-ended PS1 game that had a severe problem managing the severe difficulty spike in the TUTORIAL OF ALL PLACES and is unforgivable in many places is being considered better than an open-sandbox game like GTA (and I am not a GTA fan by any means.)

This:

---fudgesicle--- that game and the ---smurfing--- parking garage.

was the most believable response. If that game didn't piss you off then you either have the some superhuman skill or haven't actually played it....

[rCadeGaming]

Maybe it was different on the PC version, but I don't remember that part being so bad.  I haven't played it in probably ten years, but from what I remember it was a great game, and I played the whole thing through.

In Driver you do one thing, run from the cops in a car, and they nailed it.  Very fun driving, with semi-realistic physics.

What do you do in GTA?  You can drive, but it's terrible compared to any half-decent driving game.  You can shoot, but it's terrible compared to any half-decent shooting game.  Then there's the story, other mini-games, and "life simulator" elements, which are pretty weak as well.  This seems to be a theme with "sandbox" games; you can do everything, but you can't do any one thing well.  I don't see the point.