Best of the bad? (LCD for MAME)

[acekc]

I know that CRTs are the defacto standard for MAME but space constraints will likely force me to use an LCD instead. I know that within the realm of LCD monitors or TV's one has to be concerned with possible input lag as well as the ability to output at a wider display of refresh rates to ensure smooth motion.

In the course of researching I've run across a variety of LCD monitors intended for arcade use from companies like Makvision, Suzo-Happ and Vision Pro. These monitors support CGA through SVGA or XGA resolutions and scan frequencies of 15-80KHz. Having said that, they're quite pricey; some get into the price range of new CRTs.

Any help with the following questions would be greatly appreciated:

- For classic MAME games that would typically look best on a CRT, do these LCDs provide significant advantages over an LCD TV or monitor? Are they any closer to a CRT in terms of display quality or do they still comparatively suck?
- Do they at least ensure low input lag and a sufficient range of refresh rates to ensure smooth motion in classic games?
- Since they support 15KHz scan frequencies, would an ArcadeVGA card be the best choice?

[dekar24k]

For MAME you will be perfectly fine with an IPS LCD monitor, just check reviews first so you get one with little input lag. Most MAME games are perfect when synced to 60hz and with HLSL and a fairly powerful computer there's really not many reasons to choose a bulky CRT any longer. I have used heavy arcade monitors in my previous cabs, but with my latest one I went for a 27" IPS LED monitor and with proper HLSL settings it is absolutely amazing.

Edit: Also, AVGA is not necessary at all, it will actually be a bottleneck to your system if you go for LCD, as HLSL is depending on your GPU.

[Malenko]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

[dekar24k]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

[Malenko]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

Im so good a billionth of a second doesnt affect my playing, I can get 5,000 on the flag pole in Mario and everything. That and the crummy monitor Im using doesnt have a DVI port. A lot of us use old parts in MAME builds and dont go out and buy all new stuffs. Lastly, our opinions differ, I prefer the SLG.

[dekar24k]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

Im so good a billionth of a second doesnt affect my playing, I can get 5,000 on the flag pole in Mario and everything. That and the crummy monitor Im using doesnt have a DVI port. A lot of us use old parts in MAME builds and dont go out and buy all new stuffs. Lastly, our opinions differ, I prefer the SLG.

Sure. You're entitled to your own opinion, no need to get all upset about it. 

[Malenko]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

Im so good a billionth of a second doesnt affect my playing, I can get 5,000 on the flag pole in Mario and everything. That and the crummy monitor Im using doesnt have a DVI port. A lot of us use old parts in MAME builds and dont go out and buy all new stuffs. Lastly, our opinions differ, I prefer the SLG.

Sure. You're entitled to your own opinion, no need to get all upset about it. 

Who's upset? You obviously aren't getting the Mario reference:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129594 :nlp

The difference in input delay between VGA and DVI is under 1ms. Just curious, did you know that DVI connectors also support analog ? pins C1 through C5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface :nlp

Finally, CraftyMech put up a really good picture comparing the 2 side by side. I prefer the SLG he sells because it looks great and has absolutely zero impact on performance.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.msg1331478.html#msg1331478 :nlp

Why so serious?

[dekar24k]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

Im so good a billionth of a second doesnt affect my playing, I can get 5,000 on the flag pole in Mario and everything. That and the crummy monitor Im using doesnt have a DVI port. A lot of us use old parts in MAME builds and dont go out and buy all new stuffs. Lastly, our opinions differ, I prefer the SLG.

Sure. You're entitled to your own opinion, no need to get all upset about it. 

Who's upset? You obviously aren't getting the Mario reference:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129594 :nlp

The difference in input delay between VGA and DVI is under 1ms. Just curious, did you know that DVI connectors also support analog ? pins C1 through C5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface :nlp

Finally, CraftyMech put up a really good picture comparing the 2 side by side. I prefer the SLG he sells because it looks great and has absolutely zero impact on performance.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.msg1331478.html#msg1331478 :nlp

Why so serious?

I'm not serious, I thought you were.

Anyways, no I didn't get the Mario reference.  Also, I agree that budget-wise, he'd be better off with the SLG and a cheap monitor, but I still think HLSL will look a lot better, due to the fact that it doesn't only add scanlines (which alone does not look authentic on an LCD anyways).

Also BTW, that comparison picture is SLG vs MAME's old scanline overlay, not HLSL. It also seems that CraftyMech speaks in HLSL's favor when he says "HLSL certainly brings MAME scanlines to a new level, so the difference between the mini & HLSL would be harder to quantify, and of course HLSL provides a lot of tweaking for a specific look for individual games.".

[Malenko]

and get a SLG from craftymech:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

HLSL eliminates the need for an SLG. IMHO you can get way better/more authentic scanlines/CRT emulation by using HLSL. Only my 2 cents..

Also, I see that the SLG is VGA only. You should go DVI or HDMI with an LCD to minimize input lag (the VGA signal is analog).

Im so good a billionth of a second doesnt affect my playing, I can get 5,000 on the flag pole in Mario and everything. That and the crummy monitor Im using doesnt have a DVI port. A lot of us use old parts in MAME builds and dont go out and buy all new stuffs. Lastly, our opinions differ, I prefer the SLG.

Sure. You're entitled to your own opinion, no need to get all upset about it. 

Who's upset? You obviously aren't getting the Mario reference:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129594 :nlp

The difference in input delay between VGA and DVI is under 1ms. Just curious, did you know that DVI connectors also support analog ? pins C1 through C5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface :nlp

Finally, CraftyMech put up a really good picture comparing the 2 side by side. I prefer the SLG he sells because it looks great and has absolutely zero impact on performance.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.msg1331478.html#msg1331478 :nlp

Why so serious?

I'm not serious, I thought you were.

Anyways, no I didn't get the Mario reference.  Also, I agree that budget-wise, he'd be better off with the SLG and a cheap monitor, but I still think HLSL will look a lot better, due to the fact that it doesn't only add scanlines (which alone does not look authentic on an LCD anyways).

Also BTW, that comparison picture is SLG vs MAME's old scanline overlay, not HLSL. It also seems that CraftyMech speaks in HLSL's favor when he says "HLSL certainly brings MAME scanlines to a new level, so the difference between the mini & HLSL would be harder to quantify, and of course HLSL provides a lot of tweaking for a specific look for individual games.".

The HLSL is great, but you've got to alter suggestions based on who's asking the questions. For AceKC I still think the SLG and an old LCD is his best option. Im afraid that the HLSL config/tweaking might be a little overwhelming . Look at the bright side, now you can make mario flagpole references too.

[acekc]

Thanks guys. Based on this feedback I ordered up an HP LP2065 refurb. I'll probably give both the SLG and HLSL a try to see which I like better- the SLG is cheap enough that it's worth ordering one just to try.

[rCadeGaming]

LCD:  No, there are no LCD's that look any "closer" to a CRT.  Color and black levels on some are better than others, but for gaming it's essential to focus on input lag.  4 frames is common on a lot of LCD's, and is noticeably bad.  2 frames is acceptable, 1 frame is relatively imperceptible and great for gaming (1 frame = 16.67ms, response time does NOT indicate input lag).  Here's a list of low lag LCD's:

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141/

Edit:  That link seems to have stopped working, here's a new one

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtvmonitor-input-lag-database/p1

Here is a device you could take to a store and test lag before purchasing:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/LagTest/

Unfortunately those things are expensive, but I certainly will be buying one before buying a new TV.  What we should do is make a pool to get one and maintain an up to date list of low-lag TV's.

ArcadeVGA:

There's no point in trying to get arcade native res into an LCD, the TV will just have to upscale it's own native res to display it.  LCD's have an exact fixed number of physical pixels.  They can accept other resolutions, but they actually can't display them without scaling them.

You should always feed an LCD it's native res so where possible.  If it's a 1080p TV, the signal should be 1080p coming out the PC.  If the TV doesn't have to do any scaling, this will help to minimize lag.

MAME:

60Hz will be fine for MAME.  You just need to use the right settings.  Try to avoid triple buffering, as it adds the most lag.  You can avoid tearing with other settings.

SLG:

If your PC can handle HLSL, an SLG doesn't make any sense for MAME (especially on a budget); would be better for consoles and such.  Yes you can tweak HLSL a lot, but you can do better than the SLG with simple copy pasted settings (for free).

EDIT:  Saw your latest post while finishing typing this.  Congrats on the monitor.  That's supposed to be a great one with sub 1-frame of lag.  I believe the native res is 1600x1200, so be sure to feed it that.

[CraftyMech]

An SLG doesn't make any sense for MAME (especially on a budget); would be better for consoles and such.  Yes you can tweak HLSL a lot, but you can do better than the SLG with simple copy pasted settings (for free).

It certainly makes sense when the user doesn't have a setup that can handle HLSL, as more then a couple of my users have told me was the case.

I originally developed the mini SLG for use with dedicated hardware like 60-in-1 or original arcade boards. However, more then half of the 75 units I have shipped have been put to use in MAME setups. So despite the capabilities of HLSL, the mini SLG has proved quite popular with MAME users.

[rCadeGaming]

Yeah, you're right in the case that their system is too slow for HLSL.

[dekar24k]

I got an AOC I2757FM, which is a 27" 16:9 IPS LED/LCD monitor. The only thing bad with it is the aspect ratio, although I have it mounted vertically and it is awesome for Future Pinball.

Anyways, what I wanted to say was that this monitor _rocks_. The input lag is measured to 5.1ms, which is something like 1/3rd frame. In other words, absolutely not noticeable for anyone. It also has an IPS panel so you don't have to worry about viewing angles.

Thorough review here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/aoc_i2757fm.htm

Also, yes, the SLG is awesome. I can definitely see why people want to use it. Not everyone has a beefy computer and/or running MAME in their cabinet.

[CraftyMech]

Griffindodd has mentioned the Samsung Syncmaster 214t as being a really nice IPS LCD that he has used. Under a $100 on eBay, although I've been watching for one the last couple weeks with no luck yet. One of the LCDs on my test bench I have crowned the King of Lag, an older Sony 18". Cost a fortune in 2000, but so laggy that scrolling backgrounds in shumps look like the view from a moving car window.

[TOK]

Griffindodd has mentioned the Samsung Syncmaster 214t as being a really nice IPS LCD that he has used. Under a $100 on eBay, although I've been watching for one the last couple weeks with no luck yet. One of the LCDs on my test bench I have crowned the King of Lag, an older Sony 18". Cost a fortune in 2000, but so laggy that scrolling backgrounds in shumps look like the view from a moving car window.

The 214T is a nice monitor. I bought one when it was new (not for a MAME cab) and I think it was almost 700 bucks. Yikes.

[Gray_Area]

Thanks, Mal. Somehow I happened upon this thread.

[CraftyMech]

The 214T is a nice monitor. I bought one when it was new (not for a MAME cab) and I think it was almost 700 bucks. Yikes.

$700! Yikes, then those monitors are really a steal at $75 if you can find them. I can totally appreciate the difference of IPS versus your garden variety LCD. I recently picked up a Samsung 17" on eBay for $30 as a test monitor for my work bench, and if I'm not looking at that thing at a perfect perpendicular angle to the screen the top/bottom fades badly.

[Malenko]

Thanks, Mal. Somehow I happened upon this thread.

lol