CRTs, LCDs, and MAME, oh my!

[scrotty]

Oh...my...word! I've spent about 5 hours on this subforum in the past couple days and I'm more confused than ever. :^)

It's not that the members aren't super helpful - they are! But between the age of posts (some are almost 10 years old) and the changing industry, it's very difficult for a newcomer to get a handle on what applies today.

Here is what I've gleaned so far. And it may be incorrect.

• CRTs are just about extinct.
• Old CRTs are the best. They blow all non-CRT solutions away. They are 4:3 and they are built to last. But - dovetailing with point #1 - they are hard to find and expensive to ship if one can be found.
• Old CRTs are old. While they were built to last, they are typically pulled from old machines that have been abused and the abuse can affect the image.
• LCDs suck.
• But some LCDs suck less than others. Avoid TN and all costs! IPS, PVA and MVA have decent viewing angles and aren't horribly laggy. But, again, they all suck compared to CRTs. I've read conflicting assertions about the relative merits of IPS vs PVA vs MVA.
• 4:3 LCDs are very hard to find. And those you can find (e.g. 214T, VP2130B) are no longer manufactured and are aren't bigger than 22".
• Arcade monitors (CGA, EGA, XGA) are limited in the games they can display due limitations in supported frequencies. They also aren't digital and thus don't "remember" resolutions (I'm really fuzzy on AMs, so a lot may be wrong with what I just wrote.)

So my question (aside from asking for correction to any of my blatant inaccuracies above): If I were to build a 3-sided Cocktail Cabinet (based on these amazing plans!), what would be my best option for a display given these criteria:

• Games from the 80s-90s should look good (does not need to a perfect emulation, though) and play well.
• The display should be around 21-24"
• I'm willing to spend upwards of, say, $500ish on just the display if it meets the other criteria.
• The display should have a life expectancy from when I put it in the cabinet of a least 5 years. But some maintenance - replacing capacitors, etc. - is okay as long as the parts are still available.

Is there anything out there that meets the bill in 2013?

Thanks in advance... 
Sean

[brad808]

My personal opinion but for that kind of money you could buy a new arcade CRT and be done with it. It'll probably last you forever in a home setting unless you leave it on 24/7.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

[rabidfrog]

Agreed.  For that budget, a nice arcade monitor is within reach.  And with the right monitor and setup, you can display nearly all games in their native resolutions. 

[rCadeGaming]

scrotty, to some of your points:

For old games (70's, 80's, 90's; ~240p resolutions; 90% of what's in MAME), yes CRT's blow LCD's away.  For new content (modern console games, PC games, 720p/1080p) LCD's are great as long as you get something with minimal input lag:

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141

Edit:  That link seems to have stopped working, here's a new one

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtvmonitor-input-lag-database/p1

For CRT arcade monitor's vs. CRT TV's, a good standard def TV with component or SCART inputs can match the picture quality of a CGA arcade monitor for ~240p content (90% of MAME); and unlike an arcade monitor these TV's can be commonly found on Craigslist/at Goodwill/eBay/etc. for $0-$50. 

The advantage of an arcade monitor is that you could get a tri-sync monitor (15kHz, 24kHz, 31kHz), meaning it could support everything from ~240p (15kHz) up to 480p (31kHz).  SDTV's or CGA monitors can compromise with 480i for 640x480 material though.

Whether you go with a TV or an arcade monitor, getting things running in native res will take some work though; see the second link in my thread, and checkout GroovyMAME.  I'd recommend a Soft15kHz compatible graphics card, NOT an ArcadeVGA.

For what you're playing I'd recommend a standard def CRT TV.  A good Sony Trinitron from the early 2000's should have a healthy service of at least 20 years, and you can stockpile an extra or two practically free, just to be safe.

[Dawgz Rule]

Agree with what everyone else said.  I purchased a new CRT arcade monitor and don't regret it one bit.  About the only cons I see with the CRT is that they can be big and heavy (requiring a deeper cabinet) and may require some picture adjustment during the initial setup.

[scrotty]

You guys rock. This is great advice. Thank you brad808, rabidfrog, rCadeGaming, and Dawgz_Rule!   

rCadeGaming, thank you for the detailed post and the links in your sig are really informative. 

[Gray_Area]

You have done your duty in preparing yourself before asking questions.

I have an arcade multisync, and that is my first choice. I also have a 29/27" CGA monitor, and it's a close second. I also on occasion will run the old scanline effects, the png effects, and HLSL. They all look great, if done right.

Try out current MAME with the HLSL effects. Make sure your video adapter can handle it. Check the HLSL threads at MAMEWorld; some fab stuff there. I use stock settings, and I think it looks pretty great that way.

Try out a TV because they're (usually) available and cheap, like noted above. Check rCadeGaming's threads for pics. Su-perb ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- there.

Don't care about a 4:3 monitor if you go LCD. Many arcade games in the last few years use wide screen monitors and still don't fill the screen top to bottom. Top to bottom, side to side, you'll quickly not notice.

[rCadeGaming]

Check rCadeGaming's threads for pics. Su-perb ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- there.

Very much appreciated! 

I forgot to mention that a good application for older games on LCD's is multi-screen games.  These placed two or three CRT's side by side for a wide picture.  Of course the best way to recreate this would be an actual multi-CRT setup, but this is a little too impractical, even for a fanatic like me, especially since there's only a handful of games that do this.  It can be done well on a widescreen LCD though, especially if you add the HLSL.  Some examples off-hand would be Darius 1 and 2; and X-Men 6-player.

The other thing about LCD's is that even very large ones can be rotated easily on commercially available brackets.  I would definitely not recommend a rotating CRT.  All the work put into perfecting the geometry can be screwed up every time you moved it.

Each has its pros and cons.  Eventually, I plan to have matching horizontal and vertical CRT cabs for MAME and classic consoles, as well a rotating LCD cab for modern stuff.

From the era of games you say you want to play, I think your first cab needs a CRT; but if you do go with an LCD for convenience or something, just make sure it has about a frame (~16ms) or less of input lag, and know that low response rate does not mean low input lag.

[scrotty]

Thank you, Gray_Area and, again, rCadeGaming (Rob)!

These are my current desires in a display:
1. That it perform (look) good. In the least that it does not distract from the gaming experience.
2. That it's not super difficult to fit in a cocktail cabinet.
3. That I have an aversion to taking the case off a real TV and discharging it (I am bit intimidated by this procedure)
4. Limit money spent (although, as I said, if necessary I will spend a bit)
5. Reasonable lifespan
6. Reduce cabinet weight. (Not a big deal, but still a consideration)

And here is my - probably not completely accurate - impression of my options with respect to these desires:

LCD
1. The biggest concern I have about LCDs is around this desire. Are there any LCDs that won't annoy me every time I'm playing Joust? Be it the viewing angle from a cocktail cabinet seating position, poor black depth, poor refresh, input lag.
2. Easy
3. N/A
4. LCDs - even IPS - seem relatively inexpensive
5. I'm not sure on the lifespan of LCD in a cabinet, but think I could replace them down the road pretty easily an inexpensively.
6. Obviously LCDs are the lightest display option

OLD TV
1. It seems like TVs will be excellent for viewing after proper configuration
2. This could be challenging. Obviously people do it all the time, but it sounds like it could be tight.
3. My biggest worry: discharging, pulling off the case (have no idea how), refitting with the appropriate connectors.
4. The cheapest option. Sounds like I can easily get a great old TV for less than $100.
5. rCadeGaming thinks an 10 year old trinitron would still have another 20 years in it. His information is my only data point. This sounds like a very good lifespan! 
6. Heavy!

ARCADE MONITOR
NOTE: On the websites I've visited that sell arcade monitors, the monitors look like CRTs to my uneducated eyes. That is, they seem to have glass on the front and an elongated back that would give space for the guns. But from what I've read, CRTs are not manufactured anymore. These things that look like CRTs are actually LCDs?!!
1. Sounds like arcade monitors will give a great picture. But I am confused about this "tri-mode" thing and its inability to remember resolutions. Do I have to manually adjust the picture every time I change resolution?!! That seems quite cumbersome.
2. Sounds similarly tight to a TV - maybe not quite so deep?
3. N/A (I think!)
4. The most expensive option.
5. My guess is that these have a long lifespan since they are built for 24/7 use in a commercial setting.
6. Heavy (from what numbers I've read on sites like Happ)

Most of my desires are met by an LCD except possibly the most important one - that the games look good! I so want to find an LCD that will at least not make me hate this machine I'll have devoted so much time and money into building. 

If the LCD viewing experience is not decent, then I look toward the TV. But there I worry about the case removal etc. And the size of the TV seems like it will make life difficult during assembly. Also the heat is a concern. My guess is that TVs make the cabinet quite hot and require more cooling - which can increase fan noise.

The arcade monitor is a wild card for me. Are they shallower than a TV? Do they run hot? Can I configure them once and rely on them to switch frequencies properly thereafter? What questions do I not even know enough to ask about arcade monitors?!!

I feel very lucky that this subforum is active and by such helpful and experienced members! 

Sean

[MonMotha]

You can still get new arcade monitors.  They use "new old stock" tubes.  That is, tubes that were made previously but have never been used and have just sat on the shelf the whole time.  AFAIK, your only "retail" option anymore is the Makvision line made by Wei-Ya.  You may also be able to find some distributors with a few random units still sitting on the shelf of older models.

You can also get various forms of remanufactured arcade monitors that use some form of an old tube (e.g. ripped from a used TV) with new boards or old boards and an old tube.

As far as I know, however, new CRTs suitable for arcade/computer monitor applications are no longer being made by anybody anywhere in the world, so we're running on the tail end of stock at this point.  Figure you won't be able to get new ones at all after a few years.

A well made CRT or LCD monitor will last quite a long time.  Modern monitors of pretty much all types are generally not well made.  Expect some sort of problem within a few years, usually defective capacitors since nobody knows how to spec them anymore.  Most all LCDs are modern enough to fall into this category.  Old arcade monitors (from the 90s and before) can be found that are actually of quality build, but even then they'll usually need some maintenance.  Again, usually caps - even properly spec'd ones die eventually.

With used CRTs of any type (TV or arcade monitor - they're actually quite similar), your major concern will be tube wear.  On arcade monitors, this will often take the form of visible burn-in due to displaying largely static images.  For TVs, the wear is usually less patterned and hence just manifests itself as a dim output.  TVs that were used as monitors in commercial or industrial applications usually have burn similar to what you see on many used arcade monitors.

[rCadeGaming]

5. rCadeGaming thinks an 10 year old trinitron would still have another 20 years in it. His information is my only data point. This sounds like a very good

Well, I guess I should say that a good Trinitron should have at least 20 years of life from new, under normal use.  20 years of healthy service is a conservative estimate; maybe 30 is possible, IDK.

So, after this 10 years, (about accurate, since the best TV's for this were made in the early 2000's) the remaining service life depends on how much it's been used.  If it's really been beat on, maybe it only has another 10 years on it.  The thing is, a lot of people are getting rid of these things barely used, because they want to upgrade to a more convenient, lighter, bigger, flatscreen, just because they can.  I picked up two KD27-FS120's this weekend, free from some old folks who had barely used them.  These seem to be the same as my KV27-FS120's that are going in my cab, just with fewer inputs (just one component is enough), so I've got four tubes lined up now.  Combined lifespan could be 80 years!

To give you an idea of where these numbers come from, I've worked in TV repair shop for a few years; they see all kinds of consumer displays, and how old they are when they go.  My brother has an early 90's Trinitron that he uses everyday, and it's still pretty bright and clear.  The consensus is that this is typical.

3. That I have an aversion to taking the case off a real TV and discharging it (I am bit intimidated by this procedure)

You will still have to deal with this with an arcade monitor.  It's just an open tube with a chassis, same as a decased TV.

Most of my desires are met by an LCD except possibly the most important one - that the games look good!

I can't stress input lag enough though.  This is a godsend if needing to find a decent gaming TV at Best Buy or something:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/LagTest/

The arcade monitor is a wild card for me. Are they shallower than a TV? Do they run hot? Can I configure them once and rely on them to switch frequencies properly thereafter? What questions do I not even know enough to ask about arcade monitors?!!

Shallower?  I don't think so.  As for cooling, as long as there are ample ventilation slots, the TV itself shouldn't need any active cooling, as it didn't have any in the case.

There are auto-frequency-switching arcade monitors (15/24/31kHz), and then having an OSD which "remembers" geometry settings for different resolutions is another matter.  Both depend on the model of monitor.  Keep in mind that geometry can be controlled from the PC end as well though, with custom timing values.  Start readin!

[scrotty]

re Rotation:
  Will I have a problem quickly switching between horizontal and vertical display on a CRT? The 3-sided cocktail pretty much requires this ability, I would think.

[rCadeGaming]

Do you mean in software, or physically moving the set?

Rotating it on a vertical axis in a cocktail shouldn't be as bad as rotating on a horizontal axis on a normal cab.  CRT's can need geometry adjustment even from just changing the direction they're facing in relation to the earth's magnetic poles though.  You'll have to try it and see if they're any significant effect from this type of rotation.

My rule of thumb has been to get it to whatever orientation you want, then calibrate it, then don't mess with it.

[scrotty]

CRT's can need geometry adjustment even from just changing the direction they're facing in relation to the earth's magnetic poles though.

Ah, I understand. I was just asking if it would be a problem to have some games display in 4:3 and others in 3:4 to accommodate the side controls. The display itself wouldn't physically move. It just sounds like from one direction I'll see vertical scan lines and from the other, horizontal scan lines.

[rCadeGaming]

Ah, I understand. I was just asking if it would be a problem to have some games display in 4:3 and others in 3:4 to accommodate the side controls. The display itself wouldn't physically move.

Ok yes, easily doable in MAME.

It just sounds like from one direction I'll see vertical scan lines and from the other, horizontal scan lines.

Unless your monitor can do 24kHz, you can't display a normal 15kHz game rotated and letterboxed in native res.  For example, to display a game that's originally 320x240p, you'd need to rotate it to a resolution of about 320x428 (the res of the full screen, including the letterboxing).  You'd have to do this scaled up to 480i.

[scrotty]

Unless your monitor can do 24kHz, you can't display a normal 15kHz game rotated and letterboxed in native res.  For example, to display a game that's originally 320x240p, you'd need to rotate it to a resolution of about 320x428 (the res of the full screen, including the letterboxing).  You'd have to do this scaled up to 480i.

And an early 2000's trinitron tv with the appropriate hardware bits attached to it could do this? (Again, thank you so much for your help on this, Rob!)

[MonMotha]

Essentially no televisions can do 24k, but some can do 31k (480p).  24k "mid res" is pretty much peculiar to arcade monitors.  Many, especially older, arcade monitors capable of both 15k and 24k operation require a jumper or plug to be moved to switch, and this cannot be done while it's on.  Newer ones, especially tri-syncs supporting 15k, 24k, and 31k, can switch without any hardware changes.

[scrotty]

Essentially no televisions can do 24k, but some can do 31k (480p).  24k "mid res" is pretty much peculiar to arcade monitors.  Many, especially older, arcade monitors capable of both 15k and 24k operation require a jumper or plug to be moved to switch, and this cannot be done while it's on.  Newer ones, especially tri-syncs supporting 15k, 24k, and 31k, can switch without any hardware changes.

Okay, to be crystal clear: a 480i television (like the Sony KV-24FS120 I'm looking at on craigslist) would NOT be a good display for a 3-sided cocktail cab because I would not be able to display an image rotated 90º.

       ------------------------------
  P   |                              |  P
  l   |                              |  l
  a   |                              |  a
  y   |                              |  y
  e   |                              |  e
  r   |                              |  r
      |                              |
  1   |                              |  2
       ------------------------------
              Players 1 and 2

And, if so, my only option is a tri-sync arcade monitor or an LCD. Correct?

[rCadeGaming]

First, +1 on everything Monmotha said.  What we're saying is that a standard def TV could not display a rotated and letterboxed game in native resolution.  It could do this scaled to 480i though, and I think that's a better compromise than going to LCD; and yes a tri-sync could do it all in native res with no compromises, it just depends if you want to spend the money.

Also, to be clear, you shouldn't say "480i TV," because a standard def is capable of displaying all kinds of native arcade resolutions (90% of MAME) around 320x240 progressive, in addition to 480 interlaced.  That they only do 480i seems to be a common misconception, unfortunately.  I would technically just call it a 15kHz set to be more accurate, but "standard def" seems to be a more commonly understood term.

Anyhow, these TV's can display 15kHz horizontal games in native res in horizontal orientation, and they can display 15kHz vertical games in native res in vertical orientation.  However, they can't display either one rotated to a different orientation than it was designed for without scaling up to 480i.  More resolution is need (~320x428); this is too high for a TV to display in progressive, and too low for it to display in interlaced, so it has to be scaled.

[scrotty]

Awesome, I'm starting to understand! 

This thread has been useful too.

Given what I've learned from you, I'd like to get a 31kHz AM and use software to double the resolution for the vertical orientation. Unfortunately, I can't find any 19-24" 31kHz AMs! My assumption is that they just don't exist.

So, I think I will try to pick up the KV-24FS120 and use scaling to 480i in the horizontal orientation.

Did what I just write make any sense? 

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, makes good sense. 

Doubling resolution in software means no scanlines though, so everything will be oversharp and kind of ugly.  Waste of an arcade monitor IMHO. 

The plan with the TV sounds good.  You mean 480i for the rotation compromise, not everything right?

[scrotty]

Doubling resolution in software means no scanlines though, so everything will be oversharp and kind of ugly.  Waste of an arcade monitor IMHO. 

I hear you on this. I was just hoping that what MonMotha said in another thread would apply in this case too:

So, MonMotha, I take it that your suggestion is to get the tri-sync monitor but set the computer to output 480p and leave it at that?

Certainly just setting the thing to 480p and leaving it (stretching your emulated games) would be the easiest option.  It'll still look nicer than a PC monitor as the tubes are totally different.  You'll just lose some of the scanlines on 240p games.  480i stuff will look about the same just less flickery and a little brighter.

The plan with the TV sounds good.  You mean 480i for the rotation compromise, not everything right?

Exactly. Here's what I am thinking (top-down view of cocktail cab):

      ------------------------------
     |                              | 
  N  |                              |  N
  a  |                              |  a
  t  |                              |  t
  i  |                              |  i
  v  |                              |  v
  e  |                              |  e
     |                              |   
      ------------------------------
              Scaled 480i

[rCadeGaming]

Yeah, you've got it.

[scrotty]

 

Thank you for all your help!

[rCadeGaming]