Virtual Reality

[fallacy]

Wrote a topic about VR before

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,112839.0.html

A new development has finally emerged! The Oculus Rift on kick starter. I am super excited about this. It sounds like he cracked the code on making a good functioning immersive headset. I have wanted a good gaming VR head set since I was 13 and still do. We all remember the 90’s were VR headsets were supposed to be the future; between bad movies and failed consumer products VR because something to laugh about at and mock. After trying this no one is laughing about it anymore, I can’t wait to have this sitting next to my computer to test some of my game design levels with it.

[ChadTower]

I remember playing an arcade "Game" around 1998 that was very immersive.  It was crude 3D, like Dire Straits type 3D, but you were definitely in there moving around a battlefield.

[yotsuya]

I remember playing an arcade "Game" around 1998 that was very immersive.  It was crude 3D, like Dire Straits type 3D, but you were definitely in there moving around a battlefield.

That ain't working. That's the way you do it.

[ChadTower]

Lemme tell you them guys ain't dumb.

[lilshawn]

that little fa... wait a minute!

I remember playing an arcade "Game" around 1998 that was very immersive.  It was crude 3D, like Dire Straits type 3D, but you were definitely in there moving around a battlefield.

probably one of these:

http://globalvr.com/products_v3_titles.html

[yotsuya]

that little fa... wait a minute!

Yeah, well, he's a millionaire.

[saint]

I remember playing an arcade "Game" around 1998 that was very immersive.  It was crude 3D, like Dire Straits type 3D, but you were definitely in there moving around a battlefield.

Pterodactyl?

[Howard_Casto]

Saint:  That's undoubtedly it.  I remember that thing... yeah it was cool but I think you had to pay 3 bucks for 5 minutes or some insaine price like that. 

Kickstarter should send up a red flag btw.  Developers turn to kickstarter when they can't get traditional investors.  If your product is actually good/working then you shouldn't need kickstarter. 

Also the thing is that this tech already exists... duct-tape a wiimote plus to your head and you've got head tracking.... then it's only a matter of finding an affordable display.  That's the key right there... it will probably end up costing more than your typical game console.  These vr devices have been released steadily over the past decade or so and none of them have caught on, mostly becuase you get a very low-res display on a device that costs hundereds of dollars.  This one will be no different.  Get halfway through the video and they tell you that the resolution is only 640x800. 

A useable vr headset isn't going to catch on until they can make at least a 720p display.  Really a higher resolution is needed though because the closer something is to your eye the more you can notice pixelation.

now if you'll excuse me, we've got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchens, refrigerators

[Well Fed Games]

Kickstarter should send up a red flag btw.  Developers turn to kickstarter when they can't get traditional investors.  If your product is actually good/working then you shouldn't need kickstarter. 

Eh, I am a bit sick of the kickstarter buzz as everyone is, but that statement seems a little overreaching. Lots of good stuff has come out of kickstarter, that might not have gotten a chance otherwise... personally I like the idea of the public deciding if a product comes to market as opposed to a bunch of suits in an office.

[ChadTower]

It wasn't any of those games.  I remember it as a bunch of 4' rounded platforms with railings to prevent you from wandering off or falling down.  You would step up into the circle, they'd close the door, and everybody could see you.  You would put on a helmet that was connected to a bunch of cables and maybe even an armature to bear some of its weight.  The game was something like a laser tag center is now.  A bunch of mazes/levels in which you were hunting other players and they were hunting you.  The graphics were very basic polygons and maybe some of them weren't even surfaced.  I don't remember for sure.  The only other thing I remember is that it was absurdly expensive for me as a college student so I only played it once.  It was like $10 for 5 minutes.

[koz319]

Sound like it might be Dactyl Nightmare, by Virtuality.



And to Howard, 

While the kickstarter unit isn't going to be dropping all the drooling fanboys into the matrix, it looks like there are some real differences here.   Very low latency head tracking being primary - latency from the wimote plus taped to your head would kill any attempts at immersion.  A much larger field of view - 110 deg (pretty much full fov) vs 45-60 deg for most everything else.  Although the resolution for the dev kit is (much) lower than anyone would consider ideal, the distortion from the lenses concentrates the highest pixel density in the center of the field of vision, where its needed most. (The consumer version is supposedly targeting 1080p in 2013, but now we are really in vaporware territory.)

I think it will be interesting to try these when they are released.



 

[ChadTower]

Sound like it might be Dactyl Nightmare, by Virtuality.

That is definitely the type of thing I remember.  Found this pic now that I have the title and this is it.

[lilshawn]

Although the resolution for the dev kit is (much) lower than anyone would consider ideal, the distortion from the lenses concentrates the highest pixel density in the center of the field of vision, where its needed most. (The consumer version is supposedly targeting 1080p in 2013, but now we are really in vaporware territory.)

I think it will be interesting to try these when they are released.

the funny thing about the human vision is, you don't need a super high resolution display...your brain tends to fill in missing portions of the image. that's why we don't see our blind spots constantly...why the world isn't a blur when we move our eyes around...why we can't see the scanning of the lines on a CRT.

The eye is designed pretty much the same as the VR display is... with high resolution centred in the image and lower resolution on the outside peripheral. your looking at your monitor right now...only the tiny portion you are currently looking at is in focus and sharp... i'll bet you as you read this... if you stop and stare at a letter you'd have a hard time even identifying something you are seeing as a letter 10 or 15 characters back.

your brain knows it's there...your eyes aren't looking at it...there is a super fuzzy peripheral image that your brain is on the fly trying to remember what it was to fill in that info. if you look at it...then look back. you'll likely be able to ID it now because your brain has the info needed to "fill in" the missing information.

ever look at a clock and think "that clock was stopped...it just started when i looked at it, i swear" It's because for a second as you moved your eyes your brain didn't process any visual information...when your eyes stopped at the clock, your brain now has a fraction of a second to fill in...so it does this with the first thing you see...the clock. so for the first time you see it, the time in the image has been stretched to fill in the gap. (this is called Chronostasis)

the brain is always trying to create this uninterrupted experience with reality, unfortunately with the design of the human body, this isn't always possible. So there are many ways to cope with it.

What are being viewed as "shortfalls" on the VR headset, are actually things that are designed to fool the mind into using your coping mechanisms to fill in the information and make the virtual reality more REAL. Your brain creates the reality you currently view. it only makes sense to me to use the brain to do the "leg work".

[wp34]

I played that as well.  A local video store had one as a demo for a few weeks.  I remember the experience being extremely immersive.  I would love to see something similar done with modern graphics.

Sound like it might be Dactyl Nightmare, by Virtuality.

That is definitely the type of thing I remember.  Found this pic now that I have the title and this is it.

[kahlid74]

Kickstarter should send up a red flag btw.  Developers turn to kickstarter when they can't get traditional investors.  If your product is actually good/working then you shouldn't need kickstarter. 

Also the thing is that this tech already exists... duct-tape a wiimote plus to your head and you've got head tracking.... then it's only a matter of finding an affordable display.  That's the key right there... it will probably end up costing more than your typical game console.  These vr devices have been released steadily over the past decade or so and none of them have caught on, mostly becuase you get a very low-res display on a device that costs hundereds of dollars.  This one will be no different.  Get halfway through the video and they tell you that the resolution is only 640x800. 

A useable vr headset isn't going to catch on until they can make at least a 720p display.  Really a higher resolution is needed though because the closer something is to your eye the more you can notice pixelation.

now if you'll excuse me, we've got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchens, refrigerators

Two things:
Your statement about Kickstarter isn't completely accurate.  Wasteland 2 and ShadowRun Returns failed through regular publishing channels, both have raised millions, both will make millions in the end and both are being developed by professional studios.  A more accurate statement would be that the majority of items on Kickstarter are geared towards smaller markets, where publishers and investors don't care to spend their money because the ROI isn't "big enough".  I have backed many projects the last several years on Kickstarter and not one has failed to deliver yet.  Will one fail? It's possible.  I like to read up on who is doing the project before I donate my money.

As for the VR headset sure, the technology has been around for a while, but what they're doing here is pushing us towards 720p and above.  They're re-opening the gates of a stagnant technology and breathing new life into it that will hopefully push us towards real HD headsets and VR.  Is this set it?  No, but it will sure be cool to see how it progresses. 

[saint]

Sound like it might be Dactyl Nightmare, by Virtuality.

That is definitely the type of thing I remember.  Found this pic now that I have the title and this is it.

Yeah, that's the game I meant though I mangled the title. I played that too - $10 for 10 minutes or whatever it was. I got to peek behind the scenes, it was run on an Amiga 3000. I had a chance to buy 2 pods and the system for a couple of grand way back when but didn't. Wish it'd been cheaper, I'd have jumped on it.

[fallacy]

VR headset history lesson if anyone is interested.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, that's the game I meant though I mangled the title. I played that too - $10 for 10 minutes or whatever it was. I got to peek behind the scenes, it was run on an Amiga 3000. I had a chance to buy 2 pods and the system for a couple of grand way back when but didn't. Wish it'd been cheaper, I'd have jumped on it.

I seem to remember the same sale.  Maybe it was on ebay?  I don't remember for sure but I do remember a couple units for sale for a price that at the time was well out of my range.  Probably still would be, who knows. 

[saint]

Yeah, that's the game I meant though I mangled the title. I played that too - $10 for 10 minutes or whatever it was. I got to peek behind the scenes, it was run on an Amiga 3000. I had a chance to buy 2 pods and the system for a couple of grand way back when but didn't. Wish it'd been cheaper, I'd have jumped on it.

I seem to remember the same sale.  Maybe it was on ebay?  I don't remember for sure but I do remember a couple units for sale for a price that at the time was well out of my range.  Probably still would be, who knows.

I believe it was ebay in fact. That's funny.

[Howard_Casto]

Although the resolution for the dev kit is (much) lower than anyone would consider ideal, the distortion from the lenses concentrates the highest pixel density in the center of the field of vision, where its needed most. (The consumer version is supposedly targeting 1080p in 2013, but now we are really in vaporware territory.)

I think it will be interesting to try these when they are released.

the funny thing about the human vision is, you don't need a super high resolution display...your brain tends to fill in missing portions of the image. that's why we don't see our blind spots constantly...why the world isn't a blur when we move our eyes around...why we can't see the scanning of the lines on a CRT.

The eye is designed pretty much the same as the VR display is... with high resolution centred in the image and lower resolution on the outside peripheral. your looking at your monitor right now...only the tiny portion you are currently looking at is in focus and sharp... i'll bet you as you read this... if you stop and stare at a letter you'd have a hard time even identifying something you are seeing as a letter 10 or 15 characters back.

your brain knows it's there...your eyes aren't looking at it...there is a super fuzzy peripheral image that your brain is on the fly trying to remember what it was to fill in that info. if you look at it...then look back. you'll likely be able to ID it now because your brain has the info needed to "fill in" the missing information.

ever look at a clock and think "that clock was stopped...it just started when i looked at it, i swear" It's because for a second as you moved your eyes your brain didn't process any visual information...when your eyes stopped at the clock, your brain now has a fraction of a second to fill in...so it does this with the first thing you see...the clock. so for the first time you see it, the time in the image has been stretched to fill in the gap. (this is called Chronostasis)

the brain is always trying to create this uninterrupted experience with reality, unfortunately with the design of the human body, this isn't always possible. So there are many ways to cope with it.

What are being viewed as "shortfalls" on the VR headset, are actually things that are designed to fool the mind into using your coping mechanisms to fill in the information and make the virtual reality more REAL. Your brain creates the reality you currently view. it only makes sense to me to use the brain to do the "leg work".

Now you are believing the hype that came with the press kit for this thing.  It is absolutely true that the mind fills in the gaps for a cruddy image, BUT the worse the image is, the harder the brain has processing information.  This leads to headaches, dizziness, imparied vision due to eye strain, ect.... actually just check out a virtual boy.    Also you absolutely can see the difference.  Get really close to your computer monitor right now, I mead headset close... you can see the pixels right?  Well that's a HD dot-pitch right there and even with focused pixels it isn't going to have that high a dot-pitch, so even if the bulk of the pixels are centered on the eye, it's going to look bad.  Also what happens when you move your eyes?  You aren't going to look dead straight ahead.

Regarding my statement about kickstarter.  It was intended as a blanket statement, but in general it holds true.  Yes of course lots of times it's just that the profit margin isn't big enough to get proper investors and if you are buying a widget that doesn't matter... pay X dollars, get your widget... Tim Shauffers game kickstarter is a good example... you'll get your game regardless of how well the title sells.  But this is a gaming controller  if a lot of people don't buy it then it won't be widely supported and thus you'll have a nice paperweight.  Aside from resolution issues, if you look back at every vr headset released thus far, this has been the other major issue... if they have any type of special interface/controller they got support for maybe 2 or 3 games before they disappeared.  This also holds true for these psuedo consoles that are popping up like the Ouya and these "smart tv" add-ons.  How do you expect the things to get any software on them if nobody buys them?

[Xiaou2]

I have a feeling, the guy isnt making odd density pixel lcds.  Instead, the use of lenses, which stretch out the image.  The center not having much / any lens effect, but the further you go from center, the lens effects are greater.

 This means that the game devs might have to output a slightly warped picture, for certain things to work right.

 Because the lenses create a distance effect, there's no chance you would see any pixel triads.  Its pretty much the same as the other older glasses.  Possibly a little closer (less lens distancing)  and thus slightly sharper.

 A 36" 1080p  HDTV at 50ft distance, is pretty much the same as lo-fi tv playing a standard dvd, at typical viewing distances.
A good example, is if you already are nearsighted.  Take your glasses off, and things are in half the clarity and detail.

 Another example, is my Sony 34" CRT  TUBE  HDTV.  Its full  1920 x 1280.  The picture is very vivid and clear. 

  I went over to a guys house, and he was playing Guitar hero PS2, on a 32" HDTV LCD.  Even on the best settings and connections... it Paled in comparison to my older crt TV.  The reason is simple.  LCDs dont look good at lower non-native resolutions.   His picture was all washed out, grayish.  Fuzzy.  Poor contrast.    I popped in the same game on the tube tv, and it was still crystal clear, and vibrant as heck... no matter what resolutions thrown at it.    At full native, sure, a modern display can show a truer and cleaner picture... but, its so good as is, that you just dont tend to care, nor even really notice.


 Now, Im all for Stereoscopic 3D.  However, I do agree that 800x600 is too low for my tastes... and not justifiable.  (especially cause you couldnt even use it to view 3d film  content on it correctly, due to the warped way in which it displays.     You could make a better static homebrew 3D viewer with full HD displays, for probably the same price.    But as for portable, movable, tracking... sure.. that wouldnt be as easy.

 If you are into those FPS games, it might be worth it.
Not so much for 3D Pr0n.

 Also note... that when you put on VR... you cant see your hands, unless theres specialty tracking in effect.  This means it could be awkward when trying to use the keyboard as a way to control things.

 And finally, the ability to easily see all around you, could open up a door to greater difficulty in 3d games... which might be nice... but at the same time, it could mean that due to the current formulaic standards, games will remain easy... and your visual & tracking advantages, will make is so easy and boring... that you wont even feel like playing at all.

[lilshawn]

Get really close to your computer monitor right now, I mead headset close... you can see the pixels right?  Well that's a HD dot-pitch right there and even with focused pixels it isn't going to have that high a dot-pitch, so even if the bulk of the pixels are centered on the eye, it's going to look bad.

wat?

get really close to your monitor...

yeah and i can see pixels...that because the pixel in the desktop display are frigging huge...also i'm seeing maybe a thousand or so (at a single time) pixels close up. (not 300,000 which is what you would have in a small high resolution (640x480) display)

300,000 painted elephants can look like the mona lisa if you get far enough away from it.

[kahlid74]

Regarding my statement about kickstarter.  It was intended as a blanket statement, but in general it holds true.  Yes of course lots of times it's just that the profit margin isn't big enough to get proper investors and if you are buying a widget that doesn't matter... pay X dollars, get your widget... Tim Shauffers game kickstarter is a good example... you'll get your game regardless of how well the title sells.  But this is a gaming controller  if a lot of people don't buy it then it won't be widely supported and thus you'll have a nice paperweight.  Aside from resolution issues, if you look back at every vr headset released thus far, this has been the other major issue... if they have any type of special interface/controller they got support for maybe 2 or 3 games before they disappeared.  This also holds true for these psuedo consoles that are popping up like the Ouya and these "smart tv" add-ons.  How do you expect the things to get any software on them if nobody buys them?

That makes more sense, I wish you would have clarified that to this specific type of hardware, as this type of thing on kickstarter is such a small minority.  As for the Occulus, several developers have already said they'll provide working games in it.  Whether it gets a huge amount of wide spread success is anyone's guess, and certainly their limiting display size hurts, but in the end, it's a gateway towards pushing us to the next thing.

[kahlid74]

Occulus Rift used at CES2013.  Looks good.

http://www.viddler.com/embed/3a63fa2d/?f=1&autoplay=0&player=full&secret=102545861&loop=false&nologo=false&hd=false

[Gray_Area]

You can tell it's a prototype - because they put the interface cable on the top!  Looks like they use a fairly high definition screen(s), and use curved lenses (hence the name Occulus) to 'flesh it out'.

You want a REAL virtual reality, just invite your dreams every night. Best thing about it is, you can play all night and wake up uber-refreshed. At least, I do from my dreams. Did this morning.

[ChadTower]

Is that where bottom heavy is always better than top heavy?

 

[Gray_Area]

Is that where bottom heavy is always better than top heavy?

 

Not just there. The majority of america doesn't seem to have the sensibility to know so, though.  ANHH! ANHH!

Had another beautiful dream last night. I make people, and one of them in this one was a girl. We fell in love. And made love. And I woke with the sweet scent of that in my mind and body. No need to have one here when I have one there with situational perfection. (Incidentally, she was not bottom heavy, and she didn't have perfect teeth. But she otherwise met my, rather specific, criteria.)

[CoryBee]

Is that where bottom heavy is always better than top heavy?

 

Not just there. The majority of america doesn't seem to have the sensibility to know so, though.  ANHH! ANHH!

Had another beautiful dream last night. I make people, and one of them in this one was a girl. We fell in love. And made love. And I woke with the sweet scent of that in my mind and body. No need to have one here when I have one there with situational perfection. (Incidentally, she was not bottom heavy, and she didn't have perfect teeth. But she otherwise met my, rather specific, criteria.)

.......

[yotsuya]

Is that where bottom heavy is always better than top heavy?

 

Not just there. The majority of america doesn't seem to have the sensibility to know so, though.  ANHH! ANHH!

Had another beautiful dream last night. I make people, and one of them in this one was a girl. We fell in love. And made love. And I woke with the sweet scent of that in my mind and body. No need to have one here when I have one there with situational perfection. (Incidentally, she was not bottom heavy, and she didn't have perfect teeth. But she otherwise met my, rather specific, criteria.)

.......

[lilshawn]

Is that where bottom heavy is always better than top heavy?

 

Not just there. The majority of america doesn't seem to have the sensibility to know so, though.  ANHH! ANHH!

Had another beautiful dream last night. I make people, and one of them in this one was a girl. We fell in love. And made love. And I woke with the sweet scent of that in my mind and body. No need to have one here when I have one there with situational perfection. (Incidentally, she was not bottom heavy, and she didn't have perfect teeth. But she otherwise met my, rather specific, criteria.)

.......

isn't this the storyline from an aerosmith music video?

[Gray_Area]

isn't this the storyline from an aerosmith music video?

Hah-hah-hah-hah. No no nooo. In any case, it doesn't matter the content/exploration. The point is, most people are missin out on a natural resource.

[fallacy]

Received all these videos from their mailing list. This is going to be even better than I originally thought. I WANT IT NOW 

[NiN^_^NiN]

I actually have a kit for myself as well from the original Kickstarter way back and I'm very excited about it as well

Here is a cool vid of inside the actual headset.

[Gray_Area]

I actually have a kit for myself as well from the original Kickstarter way back and I'm very excited about it as well

Here is a cool vid of inside the actual headset.

Looks pretty smoove....

[kahlid74]

Half-Life2 moded to work with VR systems and will incorporate with the Occulus Rift when it hits.



Also on Jimmy Falon:

http://www.nbc.com/assets/video/widget/widget.html?vid=n32196

[NiN^_^NiN]

Just thought this would be of interest here

https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=311



It uses the Razer Hydra controllers as well so it should be pretty immersive.

Sadly I still haven't recieved my kit they have only started to send a small batch overseas and even smaller batch for australia so I will have to wait to try this one.

But who knows maybe a Virtual Arcade could be created.

[sdweim85]

In Disneyworld at Downtown Disney they had a few VR games that actually were awesome.  One was where you and 3 people got into this ship, and one piloted, and the other 3 were gunners on each of the other sides of the ship.

And the other one which was amazing was a pirate ship and one person steered the wheel, and the other 2 manned the cannons.  And the guy steering would do his best to avoid the rocks in the water while trying to line up the ship for the cannons.

That was the best ride ever.

[kahlid74]

Just thought this would be of interest here

It uses the Razer Hydra controllers as well so it should be pretty immersive.

Sadly I still haven't recieved my kit they have only started to send a small batch overseas and even smaller batch for australia so I will have to wait to try this one.

But who knows maybe a Virtual Arcade could be created.

My Kit shipped, so hopefully I'll be getting it soon.  Also, don't forget to get this when it kickstarts - http://www.virtuix.com/

[Howard_Casto]

Umm... unless I'm really misunderstanding something that's just a platform.  The project home bills it as an "omi directional treadmill" but seeing as how there are no belts or moving parts of any kind, they've just put a really slick bowl in the middle and you slide around in your socks. 

[yotsuya]

Umm... unless I'm really misunderstanding something that's just a platform.  The project home bills it as an "omi directional treadmill" but seeing as how there are no belts or moving parts of any kind, they've just put a really slick bowl in the middle and you slide around in your socks.