Best Monitor For MAME

[Harmik]

Hello I am looking for the best monitor for MAME I have been reading other threads on this site and others till my head hurts. I was looking at the Makvision 25”/24.8” but then was reading that it would be useless for me in MAME as the picture would need to be adjusted ever time I changed games or at least for many of them as it is analogue and has no memory. But then I read this on the Arcade VGA site and it confused me a bit.

“  When used with arcade monitor, all video modes timed at 15.7 Khz horizontal frequency to eliminate picture shifting on mode changes.”

So dose that mean it will work ok.

After a lot of reading I have come to the conclusion that the Arcade VGA is an awesome product, and I might just be better of using a standard high end Sony 21” G520 monitor that I have 3 of. And the Arcade VGA would give me a one to one pixel ratio effectively giving the monitor resolutions that it would not normally display. But because it is a high end monitor and has a very fine dot pitch or aperture pitch in Sony's case, if you had a solid red background or character lets say it would be a solid colour rather then seeing the individual squares. If that's the only deference between a real arcade monitor and a computer monitor with the Arcade VGA I might have to live with that.

But then I thought about the Makvision SVGA 800*600 monitor that some have mentioned it has a higher resolution but the Arcade VGA would fix that, and it has a high dot pitch .79 and is digital so would save different settings. Am I on the right track or am I way off.

If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.
       

[Minwah]

For the majority of games a 15khz low resolution screen is best - ie arcade monitor, RGB monitor or TV with RGB Scart input. This is the type of monitor the ArcadeVGA is aimed at, and will give you a spot on picture.

PC monitors are OK but if you are using one of them you may as well use any old graphics card and use some filters for scanlines to try to give a more authentic look. CRT's look better than LCD's.

[rCadeGaming]

If you want an authentic look, you need a 15kHz CRT, meaning a CRT that's capable of displaying resolutions around 320x240.  That would be:

- an arcade monitor (one that specifically can display 15kHz, ie a CGA monitor or a multisync)
- a TV (one that's not marketed as Progressive, but with a component or RGB SCART input)
- or possibly a professional video monitor

Even though it may be a CRT, a PC monitor made anytime in the last twenty years will NOT give anything close to an authentic picture.  The dot pitch is way too high for proper scanlines, and it's highly unlikely that it will be capable of displaying anything lower than 640x480.

An ArcadeVGA is not necessarily an awesome product.  Research Soft15kHz, it allows you to properly set up 15kHz resolutions with a lot more control of timing values than you'll get with an ArcadeVGA.  With Soft15kHz and Powerstrip you can control the geometry and refresh rate for individual resolutions on the PC's end, and leave the monitor alone.  The software is free, and its compatible with dozens of graphics card, most of which are readily available much cheaper than an ArcadeVGA.

What you're paying for with an ArcadeVGA is simplicity, at the expense of control and flexibility.  That's a matter of preference.

The final thing you have to realize is that neither the ArcadeVGA nor Soft15kHz are of any use with a monitor that can't display low resolutions.  All they do is allow the computer to output low resolutions, they can't enable a monitor to display low resolutions that it wouldn't otherwise.  That's not physically possible.  I'm not sure which Makvision you're talking about, but if it only displays 800x600 there's no changing that; and those Sony Monitors won't display anything below 640x480 either.

Basically, you need a 15kHz arcade monitor or tv, and an ArcadeVGA or Soft15kHz.  An arcade monitor and an ArcadeVGA will be the simplest option, but by far the most expensive.  A tv and Soft15kHz will be much cheaper, and it can rival the picture quality IF set up correctly, but this option requires a LOT of work.

[Harmik]

Thanks for the reply's I am looking for an authentic but with a flat tube. I would go for a Makvision 25” but its analogue so I have been told or read that when you change games I would have to adjust the screen height, width and position all the time. If there was a front end or something that I could do it for once for each game I would do that.

I thought about the Arcade VGA and a Sony 21” computer monitor because I read in other forums that it kind of doubled the resolution or something and would give you a petty close to authentic look. Much better than without the Arcade AGA and using direct 3D and stretch but with out the scan lines because of the fine dot pitch.

I then thought about the Makvision 29” witch is a bit to big for my liking but would live with as it is digital and has a memory for different resolutions and has a low dot pitch. Theoretically if what I have read about in other forums and sites is correct is almost perfect.

But just to clarify I would go to the expense of the 25” Tri mode Makvision if I didn't have to adjust it manually for every or nearly every game I want the game to be centred and edge to edge.

Thanks again for the reply's.       

[rCadeGaming]

Thanks for the reply's I am looking for an authentic but with a flat tube. I would go for a Makvision 25” but its analogue so I have been told or read that when you change games I would have to adjust the screen height, width and position all the time. If there was a front end or something that I could do it for once for each game I would do that.

Again, you can get control of the geometry and refresh rate with Soft15kHz and Powerstrip, so you can control all that from the PC end so it changes automatically when a game starts.  This will take quite a good deal of work though.  You have to do the initial setup once for each resolution manually whether you're setting it at the monitor or pc, no front-end or anything like that can do that for you.

I thought about the Arcade VGA and a Sony 21” computer monitor because I read in other forums that it kind of doubled the resolution or something and would give you a petty close to authentic look. Much better than without the Arcade AGA and using direct 3D and stretch but with out the scan lines because of the fine dot pitch.

You're talking about running in EXACTLY double the native resolution to avoid uneven scaling.  That monitor may be capable of this depending on how picky it is about nonstandard resolutions, it's worth a shot of you go that route.

You're also correct that you'll lose the real scan lines because of the dot pitch.  You could add fake scanlines back in with an SLG3000 or MAME's new HLSL effects.  It won't look as good as the real thing, but its fairly close.  Running at exactly double the native resolution is highly beneficial for use with an SLG3000, but I'm not sure how necessary it is with HLSL.

Finally, you should be aware that an ArcadeVGA is in no way necessary for this method either.  This is acheivable with Soft15kHz/Powerstrip and any compatible graphics card.

[adder]

hi rcadegaming no doubt you have really researched your hobby, can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz (or 50hz also if your tv handles 50hz and 60hz), and so if you try running a game such as rtype (a 55hz game) this will not run smooth on a regular tv? or are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?
ps. i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz, which is one way of overcoming the problem of a regular tv only supporting 60hz, but im just curious to find out if there are other ways to overcome this issue...



*or alternatively cabmame, but i prefer mameuifx as cabmame seems to be falling behind with regards to features etc

[rCadeGaming]

This is kind of a thread hijack.  I'm happy to answer your question, but I'll post it here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.0.html

[Firebat138]

authentic smhentic...  get a lcd tv cheap and be on ur way...  :-)

[rCadeGaming]

   Firebat everybody; he'll be here all week.  Don't forget to tip your waitress. 

[Firebat138]

picking up the sarcasm...  :-)  "David Spade, Tommy Boy..."

[rCadeGaming]

Harmik, what's going on in your profile pic.  It's like a bunch of Sony Trinitrons with Mahjong panels in front of them.  Can't really see clearly enough to see what the control panels are though.

[Jack Burton]

authentic smhentic...  get a lcd tv cheap and be on ur way...  :-)

"Best monitor for MAME"

Not most convenient.  IMO the best monitor for MAME is an NEC XM29. 

hi rcadegaming no doubt you have really researched your hobby, can you confirm that if you use a regular tv are you only going to get smooth gameplay with games which run at exactly 60hz (or 50hz also if your tv handles 50hz and 60hz), and so if you try running a game such as rtype (a 55hz game) this will not run smooth on a regular tv? or are you saying there is a method using soft15khz/powerstrip to overcome this problem?
ps. i am aware of using a version of mame such as mameuifx* to force ALL games to run in 60hz, which is one way of overcoming the problem of a regular tv only supporting 60hz, but im just curious to find out if there are other ways to overcome this issue...



*or alternatively cabmame, but i prefer mameuifx as cabmame seems to be falling behind with regards to features etc

Some tv's will accept a 55hz signal.  A lot of older TV's will sync to it, but you might need to adjust your vertical hold to get a steady picture.  Some newer tv's that use more advanced electronics will only accept a small range of signals and you'll get an "out of range" blue screen.  A few don't.  You'll just have to experiment.

As far as being smooth.  Well, with V-sync turned on it will be pretty smooth. Not as much as a real R-type PCB would be.  V-sync will cause a small amount of input delay.  Try it in MAME and see how you like it.  Also note that a 55hz game running at 60hz will run a little bit faster than normal. 

[rCadeGaming]

Easy, he was just kidding.

The TV's I'm talking about are 15kHz only CRT's, which will be flexible on refresh.  Yes, the newer stuff that supports 480p or more is going to be picky, but those TV's aren't good for classic games anyway.

Also, I don't know if you saw my response (linked to), but there I refer to running everything in the correct refresh rate, not forcing to 60Hz.  This makes games run perfectly smooth and at the correct speed, like the real PCB. 

[Jack Burton]

Actually, I've seen a few SDTV's from as far back as the early 90s that wouldn't accept much of anything off of 60hz (little experience with PAL tv's).  Even tweaking the vertical hold they just never got a stable image.  Probably with some clever use of custom modelines it is possible.  I also always ran into issues with getting the image to take up the entire screen when I'd use oddball refresh rates.

Even with exact modelines you can never be "perfectly smooth".  Maybe so smooth that the layman would never notice the difference, but it's there.  That's the achilles' heel of all emulators so far. 

You're right though.  With the availability of good displays and the software to drive them there's little reason to be forcing a game to a set refresh rate. 

[rCadeGaming]

You don't need to tweak things at the TV, you need full control of all the timing values at source.  Custom modelines is the key.  The real problem isn't the vertical scan rate, it's the horizontal.

If you just start lowering the vertical scan rate, the horizontal scan rate will come down with, and that's the first thing that will cause most TV's to lose sync.  They're not designed to work too far from 15,750Hz.  You need to be able manipulate the number of lines in vertical front and back porch, this will allow you move vertical scan rate around while keeping horizontal from moving.

Oh, and yes you can be "perfectly smooth."  Using sync to refresh in MAME causes the emulated cpu and graphics to run at the vertical scan rate, so you are always rendering EXACTLY one frame in game for one frame of video output.

[Harmik]

Harmik, what's going on in your profile pic.  It's like a bunch of Sony Trinitrons with Mahjong panels in front of them.  Can't really see clearly enough to see what the control panels are though.

The first unit is an Intellivision next is an Atari 5200 but basically they are all retro consoles. I have six of the Sonys on display I picked up another one as a spare off eBay about a week ago for about $20.00. 

[Harmik]

rCadeGaming thanks for all your help I'm not 100% yet but I think I'm leaning towards going with the Makvision 25”. I will have to research soft15khz and Powerstrip but if you say I can do the adjustments on that then I guess that's what I’m looking for.

Would I be able to use the Arcade VGA to make the 15khz side of things a bit easier and then use Powerstrip for the adjustments. Dose that make sense and can Powerstrip make pincushion adjustments as well.     

[Firebat138]

after you my friend...  :-)

Firebat wasnt banned?  Wow.

[Firebat138]

lol...  i dont owe anyone ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---...  But by all means, muck up the thread...

[Jack Burton]

You don't need to tweak things at the TV, you need full control of all the timing values at source.  Custom modelines is the key.  The real problem isn't the vertical scan rate, it's the horizontal.

If you just start lowering the vertical scan rate, the horizontal scan rate will come down with, and that's the first thing that will cause most TV's to lose sync.  They're not designed to work too far from 15,750Hz.  You need to be able manipulate the number of lines in vertical front and back porch, this will allow you move vertical scan rate around while keeping horizontal from moving.

Oh, and yes you can be "perfectly smooth."  Using sync to refresh in MAME causes the emulated cpu and graphics to run at the vertical scan rate, so you are always rendering EXACTLY one frame in game for one frame of video output.

Even when I use the exact modeline the game and original hardware ran I still get small amounts of tearing in games.  In emulators with the sync to refresh option if I turn it on the tearing goes away, but there is still a very small, nearly imperceptible amount of stutter.

What setup do you use to get your perfect scrolling?  Which emulator/software/modelines are you using?

[rCadeGaming]

The first unit is an Intellivision next is an Atari 5200 but basically they are all retro consoles.

Ah ok, I think I can kind of make out those numpads on the Intellivision controllers.  I didn't really recognize it because my console experience only goes back to NES, I stick to arcade stuff prior to that.

I have six of the Sonys on display I picked up another one as a spare off eBay about a week ago for about $20.00. 

Yeah those are great TV's, they would be great to go the TV route if you don't want to spend the money on an arcade monitor.

rCadeGaming thanks for all your help I'm not 100% yet but I think I'm leaning towards going with the Makvision 25”. I will have to research soft15khz and Powerstrip but if you say I can do the adjustments on that then I guess that's what I’m looking for.

This one?

http://8linesuperstore.com/products/Makvision-25%22-Tri%252dMode-Flat-Monitor.html

I saw two youtube videos on this, and the scanlines on 15kHz games looked a little thin for my tastes, but that's a preference.  It could have be the camera, or the user setting the brightness/contrast too high.  My biggest reservation with buying an arcade monitor is that it's hard to tell without seeing it in person first.  If you do get that one, please do a review with some close up shots of scanlines.

For my taste, a 15kHz Sony Trintron may look better for 15kHz games, but that monitor will of course have a big advantage in being able to display 24 and 31kHz games in native res, whereas the TV would have to compromise those at 480i.  Depends on what games are most important to you.

Soft15kHz includes support for 24kHz and 31kHz resolutions btw.

Would I be able to use the Arcade VGA to make the 15khz side of things a bit easier and then use Powerstrip for the adjustments. Dose that make sense...

If you're going to do the work of using Powerstrip, there's no need for an ArcadeVGA.  The only benefit of the ArcadeVGA is simplicity, and it sounds like you want to get more flexibility and control, so you need to put the ArcadeVGA out of your mind.  Seriously.

This is the list of graphics cards supported by Soft15kHz:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?7925-Getestete-Grafikkarten

A few of them are readily available on eBay for much cheaper than an ArcadeVGA, and you'll be getting a more powerful card with more flexibility for adjustments.  I picked up two nVidia GeForce 7300GS's for $30 I think.

can Powerstrip make pincushion adjustments as well.     

Not really.  Powerstrip gives you pretty good adjustment of refresh rate, horizontal stretch and position, and vertical position. 

It gives you a little bit of control of vertical stretch with a TV, you might get more on the arcade monitor.  It's not a problem with the TV, because it's generally the thing that needs the least adjustment when everything else is set correctly.

Anyways, no you don't really get control of pincushion in powerstrip, the screen will only pincushion when you've adjusted something too far and you're about to go out of sync.

You set the pincushion on the TV or monitor to a good general level during the initial setup.  You want to set everything on the tv/monitor to a good center point to start with, and then you shouldn't need to touch it after that.

-

Even when I use the exact modeline the game and original hardware ran I still get small amounts of tearing in games.  In emulators with the sync to refresh option if I turn it on the tearing goes away, but there is still a very small, nearly imperceptible amount of stutter.

What setup do you use to get your perfect scrolling?  Which emulator/software/modelines are you using?

I was talking about MAME, I'm not going to vouch for any other emulators. 

I always prefer to play console games on real hardware.  For arcade games I have to make the exception because of the cost of collecting arcade PCBs, and because it's not as convenient to swap a PCB as it is a cartridge or disc.  I'm looking to buy certain PCB's, but only if it's not in MAME or is laggy in MAME.

Aaanyhow, my MAME.ini is posted here, with a good deal of explanation too:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1299513.html#msg1299513

Of course, for all this to work, your PC has to be fast enough.  The most important thing is the processor power, and MAME can be MUCH more demanding when running things in native res in DirectDraw.