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Author Topic: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?  (Read 4000 times)

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ahofle

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Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« on: August 29, 2012, 06:16:44 pm »
I figured by now with their popularity and mass production, LED light bulbs would have taken over the market from incandescent and CFL bulbs, but they are still about 5-10 times as expensive.  Additionally, they either don't put out enough lumens, or use the same wattage as a CFL equivalent (for 5 times the price).  For example,
here is a crappy '40 watt equivalent' LED bulb that doesn't have uniform light direction, is not dimmable, and uses 7 watts (roughly the same as a '40 watt equivalent' CFL) for $25:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882999265
And that's a sale price from $36!

I was looking at replacing some recessed lighting with LED drop ins and those are usually between $100 and $200 each!!!   :dizzy:
I also constantly see reviews of LED bulbs with people complaining that they have strange greenish tints or they aren't bright enough, or the beam is too narrow, etc. 
Does anyone actually buy $25 40 watt light bulbs?  How many decades would it take to recover the extra cost of the bulb with the electricity savings I wonder.
 :angry:

dextercf

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Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 06:25:42 pm »
They last longer.

Samstag

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 07:29:36 pm »
I'm really happy with the 40W LED bulbs I've been using.  They're bright, white, and under $10.  The beam is a bit narrow so you have to put some extra thought into positioning.

Looks like the ones I've been using are discontinued, and the replacement is actually 33% brighter.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 07:39:49 pm »
Anyone used them for any length of time?

I've heard stories of bulbs where a number of the internal individual LEDs blow relatively soon, so the bulbs dim considerably.

I've gone through a number of different CFL bulbs. They sure don't seem to have the lifespan that everyone says they do.

SavannahLion

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 12:44:44 am »
At the risk of shoving this into PnR

I've bought CFL's here and there and I find it's just a marketing ploy largely put forward by the environmentalists or by people parroting their crap. They are not now, nor will they ever be the panacea for lighting. The whole thing is a pile of crap and the environmentalists know it

One of the problems with CFL's is how they're typically mounted. All of the circuitry is stored in the base. Your typical light fixture mounts socket side up. So all that heat is trapped right where the circuit least wants it. Hell, read the packaging. Those ratings are when the CFL is mounted socket side down. So people get suckered into buying a slightly more expensive bulb that last only as long as or less than a standard bulb. Then they're typically discarded, mercury dust and all, into the trash (despite a law in my state requiring they're to be recycled. Even the Home Depot I worked at just throws away the ones customers bring back. It's a crock.).

I have standard FL and CFL put in places where they mount at least sideways or down or in some work spaces. The garage, shed, basement, attic, etc. I absolutely refuse to put CFL's in the bathroom (steam), around the vanity, in the house or anywhere near any of my wife's paintings. I have one FL ring light in the entryway only because it's my wife's artwork and the ring is the only thing that fits.

Don't forget, if you have original artwork hanging on your wall, toss the CFL's, they emit UV.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 12:47:48 am by SavannahLion »

ahofle

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 01:37:26 am »
Oh I'm no fan of CFLs for sure. I was just hoping that LEDs would have made them history by now.

NiN^_^NiN

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 02:38:03 am »
I recently had gotten a 10w Phillips LED lightbulb as per below


It replaced a 9w CFL I had and before that a 50W globe in a lampshade

I have 2 downlights on each side at 50W and I can say that this does a great job it's meant to be the same as a 60W but id say it's on par with a 50W downlight the light is nice and warm like the downlights and brightens up the place very well.

It did cost me $50 which is poo but I wish I could replace my downlights with 2 more of these it would fit perfectly in and would give you that soft warm feel you have when using warm white lights compared to white cfl's

Besides the funky shape (Which i quite like) it hasn't made me notice that i've changed to leds which is good and it will help with the power bill too which I like.

Although the tech is still costly I do think this has been worth the $50 and going by their costing of savings if used for 4hrs each day you would save $8 a year so 7 years for the investment isn't bad but then again I see it as $50 i just used on something and i'm not looking at making it back or why should i pay that when I can get a standard bulb for $2

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 02:43:33 am »
LEDS have manufacturing issues, this is why the cost is high. 

They typically try to use good quality leds when making bulbs.  The problem is making a reliable led without flicker and without manufacturing defects is still very difficult.   The leds you find in most applicances, xmas lights, ect are low quality leds... generally 1 in 50 have a defect in some way and they lifespan can vary greatly from their suggested lifespan.  Also there is a cost of circuitry.  Yeah the leds themselves are realitively inexpensive, but the ac to dc conversion and power regulation circuit you find in a lot of bulbs isn't. 

I don't think led bulbs are going to catch on until they make leds lamps, aka a lamp with all the power regulation stuff in the base, so you only have to buy the leds.   

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 09:23:27 am »
Anyone used them for any length of time?

Almost 2 years on my 10 dollar bulbs.  No failures or degradation in any of them.  I think I have 10 total though some are used a lot more than others.

I'd probably own more but the other half of my house is running on CFLs that have been good for 5+ years.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 09:36:18 am »
Another issue with CFL is that you're not supposed to turn them on and off with little time in between.  When you turn them on, they are supposed to stay on for 15 minutes before being turned off again.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 01:37:37 pm »
Another issue with CFL is that you're not supposed to turn them on and off with little time in between.  When you turn them on, they are supposed to stay on for 15 minutes before being turned off again.

Which is probably one reason they're so prevalent in federal buildings.
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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 03:41:56 pm »
"The problem is making a reliable led without flicker"

Use two, oppositely polarized so they light on both sides of the AC sine wave?
But wasn't it fun to think you won the lottery, just for a second there???

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2012, 04:38:18 pm »
I have CFLs in the majority of my house and there are places I just refuse to have anything but an incandescent. A big issue with CFL's in my area is the cold temperature. Maybe not a big deal in warm climates, but in a place like MN, Try putting one of them up as a porch light in winter and it will be dimmer than a flashlight bulb.

Older and cheap grade models also suck with the lag after turning them on. That split second irritates the crap out of me. Especially with that light on the top of the staircase down to the dark basement.

And with having a little Kid, I wont have CFLs on any of my lamps where my kid can reach. The glass is more brittle and im sure my son could snap a bulb in his hand with little effort. The fact that they are filled with mercury makes the adventure of a broken bulb even more fun.

As for LED's....I haven't used them because of the price. I have a hard time paying more than 0.99 for a light bulb. I love my LED worklights, but the spectrum of light produced is very uncomfortable for my eyes. Do home LED Light bulbs produce a better spectrum of light?

JONTHEBOMB

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2012, 09:57:21 pm »
Good quality LED lamps like the Phillips L Prize bulb haven't been on the market for very long.  CFLs still have better light output and cost significantly less than LEDs.

Do home LED Light bulbs produce a better spectrum of light?

Depends on which LED bulb you buy.  The L Prize bulb gives off a warm white light(2,700K) like an incandescent.

Also, here is a lamp cost comparison chart that shows LEDs aren't quite ready for prime time yet.

Incandescent vs CFL vs LED chart
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 10:01:01 pm by JONTHEBOMB »

SavannahLion

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2012, 12:01:02 am »
LEDs could be built into the walls, ceilings, floors, furniture.  We could totally change how we light up rooms... and... nope... shove a wad of them into a floor lamp.

 :dunno

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 08:54:10 am »
I agree 100% but it's all a matter of adoption rates.  If they started doing innovatite things like that and didn't bother with the (admittedly crappy) led bulbs they might never catch on. 

Try explaining to consumers why they should buy all new furniture and completely remodel their home because now they can light up.  On the other hand, throw a more modest solution out there and people will be willing to try it.  If it catches on enough, people eventually will start buying products specifically designed for LEDs. 

But the problem is our home wiring as well.  Every socket in our home is raw AC current.  That made sense in the early 1900's when power first came to the home, but now I would say about 85% of what we run in our home actually runs dc and low voltage/wattage dc at that.  So every applicance has it's own ad/dc converter.  They are typically active even when the device is off.  This wastes far more power than any bulb could.  Homes really need a centralized ac/dc converter and a low voltage socket. 

Either that, or the way ac/dc converters and/or wall warts operate needs to be radically re-designed.  They are constantly on because most applicances have a "soft" power button.  I don't get this.... back in the day, pcs had "hard" power buttons and they worked just great, but they switched to soft ones and thus all electronics followed suit.  Make all appliances have a hard power button and you are good to go. 

SavannahLion

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2012, 11:44:10 am »
I can answer that last comment. I came across that exact thing about er....   Five or so years ago when I worked at a records storage facility.

Remember the old AT power supplies? They brought a mains switch to the front of the PC. Around the time ATX was introduced there was a concern that the AT style switch put consumers at risk should the switch and cable fail and short to the metal case. I saw hints of lawsuits but I never found them so I never learned if it was just the fear or if there were actual lawsuits. So ATX moved the switch into the PSU and spec'ed a soft switch instead.

Fast forward a few years and companies started dropping "hard" switches entirely. I know I've read a couple of white papers citing the above as the reason for dropping the hard switches. In reality, I think the bean counters are the primary influence. The safety angle is a bunch of crap IMHO.
 
Fast forward again to today. There is/was a bill trying to make its way to law requiring manufactures to include a true hard switch or to reduce power consumption to a specified level during standby (this is a little different than the Energy Star stuff).  IIRC, opponents cite the AT problem as one source of why hard switches should not be required. I didn't follow this paticular bill so I dont know what came of it.

SavannahLion

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2012, 11:52:24 am »
The desire for hard switches is very real. My current home has at least one power socket switched by a wall switch in every room. Annoying as hell since it's always the first switch when walking into the room but the socket is in the most inconvient locations for a proper lamp.

In the UK (IIRC) all sockets have their own "master" switch.

I forgot to comment on that about adoption. No one is saying that people should toss their furniture or remodel their homes. What it is is that there is so very little offered to anyone who would be interested and what is available is crazy expensive.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2012, 12:36:46 pm »
Well that's just dumb.  AT switches had a crazy amount of insulation around them.  The insulation was typically thicker than your average power cord.  They also had a layer of mastic heat-shrunk around the entire switch preventing errant shorts due to switch failure.  I built pcs from scratch during that era.. hundreds of them!  I never ran into a shorting issue, a frayed wire or anything close to a problem.

Also the flaw in that logic is that there is still ac current in the system and thus it does not eliminate the possibility of a short.  The two sense wires run back to the powersupply, which ties those sense wires, via a relay, to the unregulated current.  So a short is still possible. 

And although I agree that safety is paramount, to anything citing risk of shock as a reason for removing a good feature I direct them to the toaster.  Yes the toaster.... a series of un-insulated wires hooked directly to your wall socket that anyone can touch while in operation just by sticking their hand in the bread slot.  They are extremely dangerous and yet you rarely hear of someone getting shocked by their toaster.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2012, 03:17:08 pm »
For $10 apiece I would be all over the Philips L-prize bulbs. But they are selling for $46 on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-10-Watt-60W-LED-A19-Soft-White-Light-Bulb-L-Prize-Award-Winner-423244-/130755659734?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item1e71a507d6

But, then again, my kids are gone now so there aren't any unnecessary lights on in the house anymore. :)
Old, but not obsolete.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2012, 03:41:59 pm »
I never said that made sense. But the documents are (were?) there and failure of the AT switch appeared to be concern. As near as I can figure, the switch might fail when unskilled people attempted to work on the pc, upgrading the audio card for instance, and would damage the switch.

Has that ever happened? I dunno. But the fear of litigation was certainly enough to, at least in part, prompt the change.

Technically, I was always thought the change to ATX was to allow a broader range of power on options.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2012, 10:41:24 am »



I have several places I put CFLs.  Mostly hallway lights, above stairs, places like that.  I had to modify my old housings to accommodate the CFL base.  My experience is just like those above - CFLs do NOT last longer than the traditional bulbs.  I still have to swap them out a couple times a year.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2012, 11:26:07 am »
Well they can but it depends upon a lot of factors. 

We've been using them since they first came out.  What I've found is that the life of the bulb varys greatly depending upon your house wiring and the brand of bulbs you buy.

Old houses hate those things.  I'm not sure why.  I'm assuming the electronics in the ballast are sensitive to unregulated power or something.  They HATE moisture as well due to those damn vents in the base.  Don't expect them to last long in a bathroom or kitchen.

The brand you get makes a difference as well.  GE bulbs tend to do fairly well, phillips noticably worse, anything else is just awful.

On new wiring, in a dry space I can get a cfl bulb to last 2-3 years.  In less optimal condiditons they last about as long as a regular bulb, maybe slightly less.


So on average yeah, they don't last much longer than regular bulbs and when they first came out they were expensive so they weren't worth using.  Now they cost just a little more than a regular bulb (if you buy in bulk) and they use roughly 1/4 the energy so they ARE worth using imho.  LED bulbs, on the other hand are still too costly to be practical.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2012, 12:38:40 pm »



I'm not looking to consider 15 different variables here.  It's a light bulb.  I want to screw it in and have it work for as long as the package says it will work.  If it does not, and I mounted it in a reasonable place, I consider it a disappointment.


Things like "some are made better than others" and "if you mount it inside the toilet tank it will affect lifespan" are obvious. 








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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2012, 12:55:23 pm »
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find anybody believing the claims of ANY product coming from the manufacturer to be a little nieve. 

Super glue can't hold elephants across the grand canyon, those strange adds you sometimes get in your email aren't going to make you "perform better", and when a manufacturer gives you a typical lifespan of a product on their box, at least cut it in half.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2012, 01:19:23 pm »
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find anybody believing the claims of ANY product coming from the manufacturer to be a little nieve. 

Super glue can't hold elephants across the grand canyon, those strange adds you sometimes get in your email aren't going to make you "perform better", and when a manufacturer gives you a typical lifespan of a product on their box, at least cut it in half.




"This light bulb lasts two years" is not exactly "holds an elephant over the grand canyon" when it comes to possibly being true.




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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2012, 03:41:54 pm »
That's kind of the rub Howard. The vast majority of consumers do not go beyong the initial read over on the packaging. Very few people would know to look at the back and see that the 5 year bulb gets that rating because it was tested for 4 hours each day with the base side down in an air conditioned laboratory.

Is it the consumer's fault for not reading the packaging? Sure. But the manufactures shouldn't need to fudge the numbers. So they're equally to blame.

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2012, 09:56:29 pm »
I've got a bunch of CFLs I bought back in 2006 that are still going strong.  I've lost one.  Some back of the envelope calculations would suggest it had 4000-5000 hours on it, which I guess is short of the 8000 hours claimed.  These aren't overly fancy either: just GE brand 13W cheapies (receipt says $9.88+tax for a 6 pack) from Wal-Mart.  I've got a 23W from Home Depot I got about a year ago that gets used for almost 8 hours a day essentially daily.  That would be over 2500 hours already on that one.  Still going fine.  Also have some 23W GEs bought around the same time as the 13Ws also from Wal-Mart.  Most probably have 500-1000 hours on them.  They're also still working fine.

I've also had a couple of "100W equivalent" (and they were never that bright, I assure you) from Lowe's that literally lasted maybe 10 hours.  There were, however, very cheap.  OTOH, I have a cheap 23W from Lowe's that has been in my back porch fixture (outside, upside-down, and enclosed) for about 1.5 years and has been frequently left on 24/7 during that time.  I'd estimate ~7200 hours on it.  It still works fine, but, as when it was new, it does take a while to reach full brightness.

Clearly, there's a lot of variability, but if you're replacing your CFLs as often as you were replacing incandescent lamps, you've got crappy power, are buying crummy CFLs, or both.

The CFLs seem to work better (and this would make sense) in open fixtures where the power electronics in the base are oriented down and so not exposed to the heat.  Typical table lamp setup.  Many people report that they don't do nearly as well in recess cans where the heat gets trapped right up against the power electronics in the base.  If you read the fine print, most of the lamps do warn that this may shorten the lifespan.  You can buy ones specifically designed for it, and aside from the typical CFL "complaints" (color spectrum and warm up time, both of which are way better on the higher end lamps), I've not heard major complaints when using them in recess cans and similar.

LED lighting is mostly a diffusion problem with a secondary problem of cooling.  It's not too terribly hard to make a LOT of light from an LED at this point.  The issue is diffusing it so that it doesn't look like a spot lamp (since most people want to replace normal incandescents which are nearly isotropic radiators) and keeping them cool.  LEDs are even less tolerant of high temperature than CFLs.  Fortunately, they also put out a lot less heat, but the small temperature difference between the lamp and ambient can make cooling a challenge.  That's why you see most LED designs are practically a giant heatsink with LEDs mounted in them.

As others have pointed out, a few tweaks to how we do lighting could help a lot.  Indirect lighting is inherently diffusive, so you can build e.g. strips of mid-power LEDs for that, similar to what people have done for lighting using conventional fluorescent tubes in homes.  Most lighting schemes are still designed around incandescent lamps as the only available technology.  You can do some cool stuff with other lighting tech, but you have to break out of the box.

I think good LED light are really more of an optical problem than an electrical one at this point, but the race to the bottom is certainly highlighting how badly you can make an LED lamp if you want to save a buck or two.  Quality power LEDs are still a bit expensive (but getting cheaper every day), and once you add decent optics, power electronics, and a heatsink, $30-50/lamp doesn't seem outrageous provided they do warranty it for the stated lifespan (and no crap about making you pay return shipping, etc.).

MonMotha

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Re: Why is LED lighting still so expensive?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2012, 12:23:39 am »
I've been told that CFLs do well in areas prone to brown outs.  I guess they don't blow immediately if voltage gets weird?

Seems quite the opposite, actually.  The ballasts are essentially constant power SMPSes, so in a brown-out, they'll increase their current draw to compensate.  This can burn things up, especially on cheap devices.  Similar problems to an electric motor in a brownout condition.  The recovery transient also oven overshoots and could overvoltage some parts of the supply, and the whole thing will make the regulation feedback loop of the power supply in the lamp have "fun".

Halogen lamps are not banned.  Actually, conventional incandescent isn't either, but it's extremely difficult to hit the mandated efficiency standards with them.  High end halogens do hit the requirement, and they have extremely quality light.  If you absolutely can't stand fluorescent or LED lights, halogens with conventional Edison bases can be a good replacement option.  The light quality should actually be better than what you're used to, and they last 2-3 times as long, too.  Then again, they're also more expensive than the cheapie incandescent lamps were.