What is going on at Twin Galaxies?

[ark_ader]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   


Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

[SavannahLion]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

re-read my posts. I said it wasn't "not hard", not impossible.

Heh. I can't do anything in my job without documentation or justification. Not even a single line Perl script for batch jobs. I guess it has to do with the last poor bastard I replaced.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   

Why? Are you still waiting for your prescription glasses?

Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

Interesting read, I'll put it on my TODO list to digest at a later, and more leisurely,  time. However... please don't tell me this is something you would seriously consider for a score keeping online version of MAME emulating a twenty year old game with 1 to 6 players? The implication in the paper appears to targeted specifically towards MMP with an FPS-like gameplay in, what I would assume, is a ground up game engine design. Obviously it applies to racing or crawlers as well. But do you really see this being applied to sending scores in on Pac? Gorf? Rush, without rewriting the game itself?

I don't need to write a paper explaining why this proposal is silly. I wouldn't even waste the time modifying MAME for it as a proof of concept even if a proposal was written for it.

[ark_ader]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

re-read my posts. I said it wasn't "not hard", not impossible.

Heh. I can't do anything in my job without documentation or justification. Not even a single line Perl script for batch jobs. I guess it has to do with the last poor bastard I replaced.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   

Why? Are you still waiting for your prescription glasses?

Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

Interesting read, I'll put it on my TODO list to digest at a later, and more leisurely,  time. However... please don't tell me this is something you would seriously consider for a score keeping online version of MAME emulating a twenty year old game with 1 to 6 players? The implication in the paper appears to targeted specifically towards MMP with an FPS-like gameplay in, what I would assume, is a ground up game engine design. Obviously it applies to racing or crawlers as well. But do you really see this being applied to sending scores in on Pac? Gorf? Rush, without rewriting the game itself?

I don't need to write a paper explaining why this proposal is silly. I wouldn't even waste the time modifying MAME for it as a proof of concept even if a proposal was written for it.

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Anyhoo

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

[SavannahLion]

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Did you get your reading glasses yet Doctorate? I suggest you do and re-read my posts before you consider it garbage, you won't look so much like an ass.

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

Based on the paper, it seems like you effectively are saying to run two or more copies of your modified MAME and ensure the state of the Players emulator is the same as those hidden away on the client or running on the server? Meh, might as well put those extra cores to good use I guess. I don't see the same working very well with multiple clients in a server/client configuration unless you throw some serious money at some beefy servers. But hey, I'm sure all the old TG dick waggers would be more than happy to pony up

[ark_ader]

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Did you get your reading glasses yet Doctorate? I suggest you do and re-read my posts before you consider it garbage, you won't look so much like an ass.

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

Based on the paper, it seems like you effectively are saying to run two or more copies of your modified MAME and ensure the state of the Players emulator is the same as those hidden away on the client or running on the server? Meh, might as well put those extra cores to good use I guess. I don't see the same working very well with multiple clients in a server/client configuration unless you throw some serious money at some beefy servers. But hey, I'm sure all the old TG dick waggers would be more than happy to pony up

After I read your reply, I could only conclude that you have not had your cup of coffee yet.  Wake up and look at my avatar.  Enough said. 

[pbj]

Just about any arcade game worth playing has been re-released on PSN or XBLA and has leaderboards.  The problem has been solved.

 

[Howard_Casto]

Again it hasn't pbj.  In a couple of months the 360 side of xbla will be shut down... all of those leaderboards will go with it.  I'm not as familiar with the psn side of things but I'm assuming this will be the case with them as well. 

Man you guys sure had a fight while I wasn't paying attention. 

Here's the thing SL... I have ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to do.  I've got 4 major projects in this hobby that I've been juggling over the past year or so, a couple of them secret.  I don't need something else to distract me.  Now maybe 10+ years ago when I was trying to prove my worth in this hobby that might have egged me into working on something like that, but I've matured somewhat.  I just work on stuff I find fun these days and while a high score system might be something I look into in the distant future it doesn't have any appeal to me atm.  I was suggesting it because I thought someone else might want to have a go.  I shouldn't have to code everything you know. 

Rest assured it could be done fairly easily though like we said.  Now "fairly easily" is a relative term at least... it would be straightforward to implement, but it still takes a lot of time to do so and a lot of effort/money to maintain such a  structure. 

Besides, the MAME team seams to be having some sort of civil war these days.... I wouldn't touch the code base with something that controversial with a 10 foot pole atm.    It's growing pains I think.... everything worth noting on the pcb side of mame has been emulated that can be emulated so the project is searching for a new direction.

[Howard_Casto]

If we're gonna maintain this farce about how MAME isn't about playing games but "preserving classics" then things are right out the window when you add leader boards and online co-op.

Lot of MAME contributors wouldn't be happy with changes like what you're suggesting, I'd imagine.

This, unfortunately, is true.  Some of the MAME devs have a very eccentric way of looking at things.  I used to defend the "preservation only" stance but over the years I began to realize just how silly it is.  If it's for preservation then why not just write a series of papers?  You don't need to distribute a program allowing you to run a rom to explain how the rom can be ran do you?  Ok fair enough maybe you want to distribute a working program for ... reasons... so why distribute compiled binaries?  Surely anyone competent enough to read the source could compile it right?

Yeah the argument starts to fall apart pretty quickly.  Mame is all about preservation... AND playing games, which is the only REAL way to preserve a game.  Saying you shouldn't play the games and simply look at the source to learn about them is like saying you shouldn't watch youtube clips of old, out of print, shows because it's illegal and should instead read the transcripts.

I once asked about why the gamelist implemented when you start up MAME without a command line is random, and asked if I could submit a patch to fix it.... I was told it was supposed to be unusable to help prevent bootleg mame cabs in arcades.  This is the kind of idiocy we have to deal with unfortunately.  Developers that both think arcades still exist, and that adding a non-working feature to prevent piracy is better than either fixing it or leaving it out entirely.   

[pbj]

So, what, we're supposed to carve high scores into golden plates and store them in caves in the desert or something?  C'mon.

[1500points]

it is interesting to see how this notion of scoreboard stuff has evolved in 30 years.
it appears some think a high score is the be-all and end-all of a game titles legacy.
when really the score is a residual outcome of the spirit of fun competition of humans testing their merits against a bunch of cleverly orchestrated 1s and 0s.

whatever avenue currently available that keeps people interacting in the pixelated medium of classic arcade games, is a worthy thing in my opinion. 

[Howard_Casto]

Oh I don't care about high scores at all.  AT ALL.  I'm from the NES era... high scores were over by then... You had fun via playing the game and how good you were came from how far you got in the game. 

I'm not sure what you mean though.  High scores have absolutely nothing to do with a game's legacy, it has to do with game PLAYERS legacy.  Who currently holds the world record on Donkey Kong has no bearing on the historical significance of the game.

That being said, the highest score in the world is akin to a world record and I can see some merit in this and wanting to keep it documented.  No pbj, not gold plates, but maybe something that sticks around longer than 7 years?  Imagine in sports stats just disappeared and there were no longer any record of them after a few seasons... that is what you are suggesting.

In this digital world we live in, books are kind of obsolete but yeah books would be good. 

[spoot]

So, what, we're supposed to carve high scores into golden plates and store them in caves in the desert or something?  C'mon.

Yes, and then it must be blessed by the clergy in the area.

[ark_ader]

High scores have to be verified.  That takes resources that cost money.  Embedding a mechanism into a fork of mame to resolve system integrity and security to provide this information is crucial for success.

The security mechanism can be added into MAME without too much effort.  Also this mechanism can report how many games are being used, types, etc.

If the mentality of the project is preservation, then an auditing system for end user participation is not only feasible,  but a requirement for QA and research.

SL?  Not a fight but a bit of playful banter.

[Howard_Casto]

Well that's what I was talking about in the "requires time and money" part.  Yeah on the client end of things, setting up the anti-cheat stuff is a breeze, but you need some sort of a server to send the scores to, and having some human eyes look at the scores wouldn't hurt either. 

BUT if done this way all the clerical work of an organization like Twin Galaxies is already done for them, so that would help tremendously. 

[ChadTower]

The only scores I have ever really cared about are my own.  Hell I compete in the ACAM tourney and still don't care about other peoples' scores.  I just want to know that I am getting better at any given game.

[pbj]

So XBLA leader boards were up for as long as 7 years for some titles, and that's not long enough?  Meh.  Twin Galaxies has never had a system last that long, it basically disappeared for 20 years and dusted off the same scores from their glory days in the early 80s.

[1500points]

Did anyone take note that http://www.1337loungelive.com/ covered a 23 hour Endurance run on Robotron to 100 million points last Friday?

It hit the front page of TwitchTV and garnered about 200,000 views.  Brand new folks were exposed, beyond the normal Classic Arcade Gaming crowd.

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic gameplay event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?
TwitchTV, the new MTV for a multi-billion dollar industry of gamers?

look beyond the pages of a 30 year old list of scores, and see the sun rising, folks.....

[ark_ader]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

[1500points]

ha ha, I got a kick out of Jace doing a tongue in cheek rant about the fact that modern gamers with an NES controller don't know what real games are like and would get whipped at the arcade classics.

[Howard_Casto]

Did anyone take note that http://www.1337loungelive.com/ covered a 23 hour Endurance run on Robotron to 100 million points last Friday?

It hit the front page of TwitchTV and garnered about 200,000 views.  Brand new folks were exposed, beyond the normal Classic Arcade Gaming crowd.

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic gameplay event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?
TwitchTV, the new MTV for a multi-billion dollar industry of gamers?

look beyond the pages of a 30 year old list of scores, and see the sun rising, folks.....

Well did you also see the story about the league of legends team manager that ran off with all of that money?  Professional gaming is a scary thing because nobody knows how the hell to manage it. 

[Howard_Casto]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

[1500points]

that makes sense. To be honest, we bought a second hand NES about 10 years ago so the kids could play the precursor to gamecube and all that other stuff they were playing.  it lasted about a month, then they tired of it and it got sold for a dollar in a garage sale.

One game that is still a pain for me is Ghosts and Goblins, how people are good at that is beyond me.
I was 12 when Defender came out, didn't even begin to have the rationale thinking or hierarchical strategies to deal with a complexity like that....still whoops my behind.

I see on the 1337 lounge that there is a marathon scheduled for a JAWS console game this weekend. never heard of it before.

[SavannahLion]

I think I have JAWS buried somewhere in a box from three moves ago. Bought it sans box/manual and pre-AOL. I haven't the foggiest what you're supposed to do in that game.

[Howard_Casto]

I think I have JAWS buried somewhere in a box from three moves ago. Bought it sans box/manual and pre-AOL. I haven't the foggiest what you're supposed to do in that game.

If it's the NES version:

Survive the boredom longer than anyone else.  You do a bunch of dives... they are tedious, eventually jaws shows up, so you whoop on him a bit... rinse and repeat. 
I do believe that there is some sort of ending eventually, but if I remember correctly it's super lame... like you kill Jaws on the overhead map or something stupid like that.

There was also a PS2 game where you played as Jaws and the goal was to munch on beach goers and wreck stuff... still kind of lame, but much more fun.   

See Ghosts and Goblins was hard, but it was hard due to bad coding.  I don't count those.  You see the game uses truly random enemy logic... that's a big no-no.  You want to always give the player a situation to get through an area without getting hit.  Due to random spawn points and attack movements, this isn't always possible with GnG.  If you look up play through guides for the game you'll find that some of the only ways to get through certain portions (particularly the tower) is to take advantage of bugs in the game logic.  So while you can certainly argue that it is a classic, I argue that it was a broken piece of crap, only we didn't know any better.  Now subsequent sequels fix a lot of these issues and offer a fair challenge.  I think they were still pulling that crap on super GNG though.

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.  I think the major thing I've noticed from my youth is a change in the perception of time.  When I was little it seemed like I was on these games for months trying to finish them.   Now I can usually do it in an afternoon. 

[ark_ader]

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

[DaveMMR]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

Different for me: games I used to beat easily as a kid give me trouble now. Though I think it's more about giving these games less of my attention. I used to have too much time and too few games. Now the opposite is true.

And "Nintendo Hard" is still a relevant term considering nowadays games do a lot more hand-holding. Even if you find it easy, it's still a fact that NES games didn't pull any punches. Nowadays you have generous save points and a road map to your goals, compared to NES games where you were lucky if your game had a password system and didn't require a subscription to Nintendo Power to make any sort of progress. And don't even get me started on games like Solomon's Key that just seem needlessly cruel in later levels. 

And here's my obligatory link to TV Tropes - a list of "Nintendo Hard" games (divided by category): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard. Have fun!   

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

Don't know if you were just being sarcastic but there are quite a few titles - legit licensed games, mind you, not just titles like "Bubble Bath Babes" or "Cheetahman II" - that many collectors with shallow pockets have trouble getting their hands on.  Suffice to say, an entire set of NES games is very hard to achieve.   

EDIT: (And then I suddenly realize you're probably referring to ROM files....)

[Howard_Casto]

Well again, I don't count games that were poorly designed.  Exploration is certainly important, and modern games seem to be lost on that fact BUT if it's impossible to know what to do in a game without consulting guide books I would argue that it isn't hard, rather it's just a crappy game.  I think the best example I can give is one of the Castlevania games  (The third I think?).  There's that one portion in the game where you have to go to a dead end, equip this obscure crystal item and kneel for 10 seconds to proceed.  The clue in the game is poorly translated so it isn't of any help.  So yeah, that game isn't hard, it just has issues. 

I mean I look at a modern game like Assassin's Creed, and the enemies are so tiny and look so similar that without the goal/map/eagle vision system, I don't think the games would be playable. 

I just give this particular issue as a specific example because if you look at the list of features you linked to, more than half of them are just design/programming issues. 

Maybe "Nintendo Bad" is a better term?  I mean I hate to use it... I think the old NES had the highest ratio of quality games to crap than any other system, BUT designers were still learning back then, so a lot of mistakes were made. 

I'm not saying that there weren't hard games on the NES, there were quite a few, but there are still hard games today... they just don't sell well because these new generations of gamers are big babies.  Back in the day if you couldn't figure out a level you kept at it and hoped that in a month or so it'd be featured in Nintendo power.  Now kids give up and immediately consult gamefaqs. 

[1500points]

this is slightly askew to the topic but yesterday someone showed me the retrouprising website where you can play any emulated game from Atari to arcade to nes, etc.  right from their site.
the setting adjustments are coded out so you can't adjust them in mame, but you can adjust the key settings.
when you are done with a good game, you get to upload it immediately to their scoreboard (says someone reviews the game, but I don't know what that means).

I never knew about this before, but it is just cool as can be.  looks like it has been around awhile, too.

[DaveMMR]

Well again, I don't count games that were poorly designed.  Exploration is certainly important, and modern games seem to be lost on that fact BUT if it's impossible to know what to do in a game without consulting guide books I would argue that it isn't hard, rather it's just a crappy game.  I think the best example I can give is one of the Castlevania games  (The third I think?).  There's that one portion in the game where you have to go to a dead end, equip this obscure crystal item and kneel for 10 seconds to proceed.  The clue in the game is poorly translated so it isn't of any help.  So yeah, that game isn't hard, it just has issues. 

You're referring to Castlevania II: Simon's Quest. It was probably designed to sell Nintendo Power (it graced the cover of Issue #2) with the intentionally misleading clues by the townsfolk and the aforementioned obscure puzzles.  It's basically the oddball of the series. And yeah, that's the only one I ever beat of the originals (i.e. not the modern 'Metrovania' entries.)   
 
And yes, you're right about most difficulty coming from design and/or programming issues (e.g. Ninja Gaiden had a glitch where it kicked you back two levels after dying towards the end; the programmers kept that glitch in on purpose.) Also, some of these games were modeled after the coin-op counterparts (read: not designed to be won without a LOT of quarters.) By the time the 16-bit era rolled around, there was definitely more of an effort to make games winnable with a healthy, balanced challenge. Though I still stick to the term "Nintendo Hard" because many of these hard games are still quite good even if it hands your ass to you on a regular basis, fairly or otherwise.
 

[pbj]

I think the old NES had the highest ratio of quality games to crap than any other system

5 good games out of hundreds?  Awesome ratio.

[Howard_Casto]

Hopefully you are trolling.  I would guestimate that there are 50 to 100 good games on the NES.  It was a fantastic system. 

[pbj]

Excitebike
Punchout
Mario 1-3
Zelda

So, okay, I was wrong.  6.  Done.

[DaveMMR]

Excitebike
Punchout
Mario 1-3
Zelda

So, okay, I was wrong.  6.  Done.

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

[ChadTower]

Baseball Stars and Tecmo Bowl FTW.

[pbj]

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

Nobody buys any of those when they get a wild hair to run out and buy an NES for fun.  (Unless they're from BYOAC and we're already weird and don't count)

I forgot Contra.  So, 7.

[DaveMMR]

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

Nobody buys any of those when they get a wild hair to run out and buy an NES for fun.  (Unless they're from BYOAC and we're already weird and don't count)

I forgot Contra.  So, 7.

And Super C, so 8.  And if people don't care about anything else but those 6,7,8 then they're wasting their money on an NES and should leave it for people who actually will appreciate the console. 

[Howard_Casto]

I would have a hard time making a list of bad games actually.  I mean the LJN garbage and the unlicensed games, but even the worst of the nes games I would consider "not bad". 

I mean if nothing else this is byoac...  all of the arcade titles of that age, the best ports were on the NES. 


Just adding a couple to the list...

The double Dragon games
Kung-fu
Gi Joe Games
Kirby
Metal Gear
the TMNT games
Bad Dudes
Robocop
Gyromite (yes rob sucked, but the game was good)

I'm actually drawing a blank because a lot of my favorites were already listed, but typically on the NES when someone mentions a game I remember liking it. 

[Fursphere]

There is something like 578 games on the "official" Hyperspin XML for NES.

I can spin that wheel randomly and be happy with at least half the games on there.  Yes, there are some HORRIBLE games on the NES too.... 

[pbj]

Now we've gone from 50-100 good games to 300.  Neat.

 

[ark_ader]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

Different for me: games I used to beat easily as a kid give me trouble now. Though I think it's more about giving these games less of my attention. I used to have too much time and too few games. Now the opposite is true.

And "Nintendo Hard" is still a relevant term considering nowadays games do a lot more hand-holding. Even if you find it easy, it's still a fact that NES games didn't pull any punches. Nowadays you have generous save points and a road map to your goals, compared to NES games where you were lucky if your game had a password system and didn't require a subscription to Nintendo Power to make any sort of progress. And don't even get me started on games like Solomon's Key that just seem needlessly cruel in later levels. 

And here's my obligatory link to TV Tropes - a list of "Nintendo Hard" games (divided by category): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard. Have fun!   

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

Don't know if you were just being sarcastic but there are quite a few titles - legit licensed games, mind you, not just titles like "Bubble Bath Babes" or "Cheetahman II" - that many collectors with shallow pockets have trouble getting their hands on.  Suffice to say, an entire set of NES games is very hard to achieve.   

EDIT: (And then I suddenly realize you're probably referring to ROM files....)

 

I have to count them but I am sure I have over 500 NES games, including some rare ones and some others that looks a bit cheesy.  I do not see the point collecting carts.  Unless you have one of those huge lofts going waste, the stuff will be boxed, bagged and stuck in the attic until your Will is read.