What is going on at Twin Galaxies?

[WhereEaglesDare]

The site has been down for about two weeks now.  Does anyone know what is happening over there?  Says server updates, but it shouldn't take this long for some updates. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

This is what I can gather...

A few weeks ago the website was under a DDOS attack which caused the firewall to freakout. During this time the technician in charge of the website and its server was on vacation. He was notified about the problem and said that when he got back from vacation he would fix it which would be about a week later. Attempts were made to make him do it from where ever he is but refused to do anything from a remote location and wanted to be at the server instead. Since then the tech has been very vague on when he would repair the server and has actually stopped replying to emails and phone calls. Now before this was happening apparently there have been attempts to purchase Twin Galaxies from the current owner but all these offers were refused. I am not sure if those business deals falling through had anything to do with it but one can only guess. http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,4925.0.html

[saint]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

[ChadTower]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

First, the battles over ownership.  Then, the haxx0ring.  Then the politics and drama.


Yep, pretty much the arcade hobbyist playlist step by step.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Not getting enough attention?  Why did you drag this garbage here?

Because I only ever use it for console high scores. I've been trying to beat the After Burner high score for a while now.  I have also sat a few Sega High Scores.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

First, the battles over ownership.  Then, the haxx0ring.  Then the politics and drama.


Yep, pretty much the arcade hobbyist playlist step by step.

I always thought it was a non profit company, since 99% of the staff is supposedly volunteers.  This really sucks, but with some many people investing so much TIME of their lives for nothing but recognition, things can get hairy when that recognition isn't given in a way that the volunteer might like.

Is there another, maybe even better, scoreboard out there?

[Well Fed Games]

This is why I don't submit any scores to Twin Galaxies.

That, and my scores are really, really low. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Windjammers is awesome. Sometimes you gotta harass them unfortunately.

[sharpfork]

I think PBJ's new sig should be:

"I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers."

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

I think PBJ's new sig should be:

"I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers."

 

It's got to be official before he starts bragging to EVERYONE. PBJ did you use WOLF-MAME for your recording?

[ChadTower]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Last I checked I still held the world record on Clockwork Knight for the Saturn for mostly that reason.  It's not a nuisance score, I completed the game, but it wasn't a particularly awesome score for having done so.  I still have trouble believing someone sat there and spent three hours reviewing the VHS I sent them.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Loosing sleep at night, huh?



Last I checked I still held the world record on Clockwork Knight for the Saturn for mostly that reason.  It's not a nuisance score, I completed the game, but it wasn't a particularly awesome score for having done so.  I still have trouble believing someone sat there and spent three hours reviewing the VHS I sent them.

[sharpfork]

They are moving above my local barcade:

http://patrickscottpatterson.com/CultureTwinGalaxies

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-1up/187098864646679?fref=ts

http://the-1up.com/twin-galaxies/

[WhereEaglesDare]

Now they're dead. They started charging people for submissions and a lot of people are really upset that they haven't been verifies in months. The website is gone and the scoreboard is gone. 

[Howard_Casto]

I mentioned this over at Kotaku (and I thought here) when they first announced it.  You can't charge for submissions to world records, it's sort of immoral because it means only people who can afford to continuously re-submit scores can maintain a world record and people that might normally try for a record might become disinterested due to the fees. 

Long story short the list would need to have an asterisk next to the names because you'd have to wonder if the top score really is the top score.  I don't think they were asking for a crazy amount of money, but it's more the principal of the thing.  If they needed money for maintaining the  scores they could have sold merch, or gotten it other ways.

Something like this really needs to remain free and although I'm sad to see TG go, if they can't afford to maintain the system then they really shouldn't be doing it in the first place. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Right but it was working before 1up bought it. I know a few of the volunteer refs and they loved doing it. They all got released of their duties, but still. Now I'm a three time world champion with nowhere to reference.

[ark_ader]

Right so does anyone have a copy of the scores and if they do why not host them on this site.  I am sure Saint wouldn't mind the extra advertisement revenue.

[1500points]

a mostly complete backup of scores is hosted at champow/retrouprising.
if you are a member of their forum, there is a thread that pointed out the whole spreadsheet of TG's scoreboard was posted on some wiki, and a recent copy is available for download. not all that large as you'd think.

[ark_ader]

a mostly complete backup of scores is hosted at champow/retrouprising.
if you are a member of their forum, there is a thread that pointed out the whole spreadsheet of TG's scoreboard was posted on some wiki, and a recent copy is available for download. not all that large as you'd think.

Great lets get it all together on a site and charge each person to list their high score.  That should make some money. 

[1500points]

ha, charging money for score submissions....that didn't work from the day they tried it. Even Guinness turned up a nose to the notion. he he he.

champow doesn't charge, and I can't think of anyone that ever has. there are lots of scoreboards out there. personally I think aurcade has a really neat interactive layout that could take hold.  highscore.com is quite efficient and easy.  then you have lots of grassroots boards for fun, most notably scoreground.com. the granddaddy of all the current online boards has to be MARP. isn't that the be all and end all of current online communities?

if you are into high scores, this is a rich era of communities in which to interact.

[Howard_Casto]

This might very well be true, but TG was "recognized" as the "official" high score system for arcade and console games.  Mostly due to their high level mainstream exposure. 

In order to replace that, a site/organization would have to emerge with high visibility and a good reputation. 

People thought 1up could do this and I hate to break it to them, but 1up is out to make money while keeping scores to such a  niche hobby decidedly drains more money than it makes.  It was doomed to fail from the start.  Keeping scores, like practically everything else in this hobby is a labor of love and people shouldn't get into it for monetary reasons.

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

1up could at least relinquish twin galaxies back to the volunteers. They tried, it failed, let someone that use to do it, do it again.

[pbj]

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

Yeah, it's called Xbox Live and only works with games that people in 2013 actually care about.

 

[Fursphere]

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

So basically an "always online" version of MAME - that constantly checks in to make sure there is nothing amiss.  Good in theory - but it costs money to host stuff like that.  And as soon as money gets involved - the copyright owners of all these games we're using will want their slice of the pie. 

MAMEHub had a shot - but damn that thing is bug riddled. and messy. 

[Howard_Casto]

I don't think it would be that hard actually.  There are ways to protect memory in windows making it difficult to access.  Take that and add random memory locations upon startup and on top of that only allow certain services/apps to run in the background and you would have something fairly secure. 

Yes hosting is always a problem unfortunately. 

Lol PBJ.... Games haven't had high scores since the mid-90s.  XBL achievements rarely have anything to do with how good you are at the game.   Regardless it isn't permanent.  Once the console is gone those leaderboards are gone as well.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

Well now thirty years worth of scores are gone.

[SavannahLion]

I don't think it would be that hard actually.  There are ways to protect memory in windows making it difficult to access.  Take that and add random memory locations upon startup and on top of that only allow certain services/apps to run in the background and you would have something fairly secure.

I don't think you've actually worked on the problem, you're just figuring it out from the arm chair. It is a constant cat and mouse game where you very quickly realize that in order to achieve said goal, you have to step over boundaries and on toes. Take a look at Punkbuster and VAC to get a better idea what has to go into something like that.

With emulation, as long as the system is isolated, cheating is virtually a non-issue. The only person being harmed is the cheater. That's why I find it amusing when game developers implement anti-cheat measures into games that have ZERO online capability. Locked saves states (MagicGate on PS2 for example), encrypted memory, protected execution, even amusing little messages hidden inside executables that only hackers would ever find. 

As soon as you introduce an online component, whether it's a "live" competition like Counter Strike or a score keeping ability like on Live, you introduce a real incentive for someone to cheat. To find some way to game the system with a little trickery. As soon as you introduce the first anti-cheat measure, someone will find a way around that. Then you get trapped in a constant patch<->break system. The amount of research involved in discovering not only software hacks and how to detect/evade them but hardware hacks as well. Not to mention the potential for serious false negatives and what you must do about them as well.

In the end, it isn't easy. More importantly, it isn't cheap. Developers have to eat too. Money has to be involved and that opens up a whole other can of worms.

I would think such efforts to create such system would be far better utilized in actually creating better game emulation.

My two cents. 

[ark_ader]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Online gaming protection is to prevent circumvention of game code for unfair online play, and requires intervention by the user when installing said game to activate.  Same goes for reporting such as VAC.  The IP address of the offender is reported to Valve by the owner of the server, so that the ban can be implemented, then the offender has to go and get a new account and game.

Mame is a platform developed for playing classic games, not as preservation initially and could have mechanisms in place to prevent the use of cheats, but are enabled to assist in QA.  There is no mechanism to restrict the user from employing cheats in Mame, as well as creating mechanisms for preventing the use of distribution of game roms, which would defeat the purpose of playing classic games.  If Mame was for preservation then the playing of classic games would be enabled by the developers only for QA, and would be protected archivists under the DMCA.   

Two totally concepts there. 

Scores have to be witnessed before they are able to be implemented, therefore Mame or any supported emulator would have to display a telltale graphic to identify if a cheat was implemented.   

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah and I guess all the extensive memory hacking projects I've worked on over the past year or so don't count? 

I'm by no means an expert, I've barely started, but I am getting pretty competant at this.  Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

Most people aren't going to want to cheat for something like this...it's too obscure.  That being said mame and other emulators are wide open atm.... a little bit of cheat prevention as well as a verification system would be needed just to discourage the random joe on the net from planting a bunch of bogus scores for laughs. 

I'm kind of worried about MAME atm.... it seems to be fairly stagnant.  Off-topic but somewhat relevant.   I just think that in this stage of the game, adding features might be a great way to strum up interest again.  Maybe not this feature, but something. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Online co op....

[pbj]

If we're gonna maintain this farce about how MAME isn't about playing games but "preserving classics" then things are right out the window when you add leader boards and online co-op.

I wasn't very pleased when Clay took down his "pinball repair guides" and started charging money for access.  I had made contributions with the understanding they'd be available freely.  Other things he ripped off verbatim from my posts on rec.games.pinball.  He wasn't monetizing it and I had posted it openly so no butthurt... but to yank it away and require donations?  Irritated me. 

Lot of MAME contributors wouldn't be happy with changes like what you're suggesting, I'd imagine.   

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

Right, but I think the point is that once you manipulate the fail safes and redundancies it can be done. Look at the multi million dollar software developers that get hacked all the time.

[ChadTower]

Right, but I think the point is that once you manipulate the fail safes and redundancies it can be done. Look at the multi million dollar software developers that get hacked all the time.

Let's not compare the target value of Microsoft to the target value of MAME.  Anything can be cracked with sufficient resources and effort.  The question is not can it be cracked.  The question is would enough people find it of sufficient value to put enough time and effort into the task?

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

I could say the same about putting your referenced idea to paper.  Something that would preclude coding.  Yes I do not have time to hardcode anything, as I am currently working on my doctorate, but I am sure your paper would assist in creating a strategy, but it would be hard for you to research so I understand your lack of enthusiasm.

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

I could say the same about putting your referenced idea to paper.  Something that would preclude coding.  Yes I do not have time to hardcode anything, as I am currently working on my doctorate, but I am sure your paper would assist in creating a strategy, but it would be hard for you to research so I understand your lack of enthusiasm.

Oh turn it around and put the onus on me. Strange, I NEVER said it was easy. With a doctorate on the way I guess comprehension wasn't part of it?

Sure, I'll get right on that. I'm used to writing papers no one actually bothers to read. 

[ark_ader]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   


Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

[SavannahLion]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

re-read my posts. I said it wasn't "not hard", not impossible.

Heh. I can't do anything in my job without documentation or justification. Not even a single line Perl script for batch jobs. I guess it has to do with the last poor bastard I replaced.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   

Why? Are you still waiting for your prescription glasses?

Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

Interesting read, I'll put it on my TODO list to digest at a later, and more leisurely,  time. However... please don't tell me this is something you would seriously consider for a score keeping online version of MAME emulating a twenty year old game with 1 to 6 players? The implication in the paper appears to targeted specifically towards MMP with an FPS-like gameplay in, what I would assume, is a ground up game engine design. Obviously it applies to racing or crawlers as well. But do you really see this being applied to sending scores in on Pac? Gorf? Rush, without rewriting the game itself?

I don't need to write a paper explaining why this proposal is silly. I wouldn't even waste the time modifying MAME for it as a proof of concept even if a proposal was written for it.

[ark_ader]

We all (and several thousand lurkers) would read your paper, then add to it.  I, or Howard have nothing to prove, and you are the one saying it is impossible.  You want us to eat crow? Then research the problem and publish your results.  Documentation comes before coding, unless you are one of those idiots who code and not document (plenty of them out there so don't worry), and I am sure that is not the case with you.

re-read my posts. I said it wasn't "not hard", not impossible.

Heh. I can't do anything in my job without documentation or justification. Not even a single line Perl script for batch jobs. I guess it has to do with the last poor bastard I replaced.

The ball is in your court and let's have a 5k word count to flex those creaky mental muscles.  You can ask Shmokes to proof read it for you.   

Why? Are you still waiting for your prescription glasses?

Here is a primer for you to get those creative juices flowing.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1241833

Here is a free copy, so I don't hear any stupid excuses of you not being able to view it:

http://www.csun.edu/~hbecs317/Presentation/p1-baughman.pdf

Interesting read, I'll put it on my TODO list to digest at a later, and more leisurely,  time. However... please don't tell me this is something you would seriously consider for a score keeping online version of MAME emulating a twenty year old game with 1 to 6 players? The implication in the paper appears to targeted specifically towards MMP with an FPS-like gameplay in, what I would assume, is a ground up game engine design. Obviously it applies to racing or crawlers as well. But do you really see this being applied to sending scores in on Pac? Gorf? Rush, without rewriting the game itself?

I don't need to write a paper explaining why this proposal is silly. I wouldn't even waste the time modifying MAME for it as a proof of concept even if a proposal was written for it.

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Anyhoo

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

[SavannahLion]

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Did you get your reading glasses yet Doctorate? I suggest you do and re-read my posts before you consider it garbage, you won't look so much like an ass.

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

Based on the paper, it seems like you effectively are saying to run two or more copies of your modified MAME and ensure the state of the Players emulator is the same as those hidden away on the client or running on the server? Meh, might as well put those extra cores to good use I guess. I don't see the same working very well with multiple clients in a server/client configuration unless you throw some serious money at some beefy servers. But hey, I'm sure all the old TG dick waggers would be more than happy to pony up

[ark_ader]

It takes a strong person with a good moral compass to admit that they are wrong.

Kudos for making that evident. 

The next time you come out with complete garbage, we will know how dispose of it. 

Did you get your reading glasses yet Doctorate? I suggest you do and re-read my posts before you consider it garbage, you won't look so much like an ass.

A fork of mame would need to be coded to interact with a central server, in order to authenticate and record unique score data.  The paper I suggested is part of the solution for implementation, which can be hidden to look like a driver or several drivers, which would act as a watchdog for the program.

Based on the paper, it seems like you effectively are saying to run two or more copies of your modified MAME and ensure the state of the Players emulator is the same as those hidden away on the client or running on the server? Meh, might as well put those extra cores to good use I guess. I don't see the same working very well with multiple clients in a server/client configuration unless you throw some serious money at some beefy servers. But hey, I'm sure all the old TG dick waggers would be more than happy to pony up

After I read your reply, I could only conclude that you have not had your cup of coffee yet.  Wake up and look at my avatar.  Enough said. 

[pbj]

Just about any arcade game worth playing has been re-released on PSN or XBLA and has leaderboards.  The problem has been solved.

 

[Howard_Casto]

Again it hasn't pbj.  In a couple of months the 360 side of xbla will be shut down... all of those leaderboards will go with it.  I'm not as familiar with the psn side of things but I'm assuming this will be the case with them as well. 

Man you guys sure had a fight while I wasn't paying attention. 

Here's the thing SL... I have ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- to do.  I've got 4 major projects in this hobby that I've been juggling over the past year or so, a couple of them secret.  I don't need something else to distract me.  Now maybe 10+ years ago when I was trying to prove my worth in this hobby that might have egged me into working on something like that, but I've matured somewhat.  I just work on stuff I find fun these days and while a high score system might be something I look into in the distant future it doesn't have any appeal to me atm.  I was suggesting it because I thought someone else might want to have a go.  I shouldn't have to code everything you know. 

Rest assured it could be done fairly easily though like we said.  Now "fairly easily" is a relative term at least... it would be straightforward to implement, but it still takes a lot of time to do so and a lot of effort/money to maintain such a  structure. 

Besides, the MAME team seams to be having some sort of civil war these days.... I wouldn't touch the code base with something that controversial with a 10 foot pole atm.    It's growing pains I think.... everything worth noting on the pcb side of mame has been emulated that can be emulated so the project is searching for a new direction.

[Howard_Casto]

If we're gonna maintain this farce about how MAME isn't about playing games but "preserving classics" then things are right out the window when you add leader boards and online co-op.

Lot of MAME contributors wouldn't be happy with changes like what you're suggesting, I'd imagine.

This, unfortunately, is true.  Some of the MAME devs have a very eccentric way of looking at things.  I used to defend the "preservation only" stance but over the years I began to realize just how silly it is.  If it's for preservation then why not just write a series of papers?  You don't need to distribute a program allowing you to run a rom to explain how the rom can be ran do you?  Ok fair enough maybe you want to distribute a working program for ... reasons... so why distribute compiled binaries?  Surely anyone competent enough to read the source could compile it right?

Yeah the argument starts to fall apart pretty quickly.  Mame is all about preservation... AND playing games, which is the only REAL way to preserve a game.  Saying you shouldn't play the games and simply look at the source to learn about them is like saying you shouldn't watch youtube clips of old, out of print, shows because it's illegal and should instead read the transcripts.

I once asked about why the gamelist implemented when you start up MAME without a command line is random, and asked if I could submit a patch to fix it.... I was told it was supposed to be unusable to help prevent bootleg mame cabs in arcades.  This is the kind of idiocy we have to deal with unfortunately.  Developers that both think arcades still exist, and that adding a non-working feature to prevent piracy is better than either fixing it or leaving it out entirely.   

[pbj]

So, what, we're supposed to carve high scores into golden plates and store them in caves in the desert or something?  C'mon.

[1500points]

it is interesting to see how this notion of scoreboard stuff has evolved in 30 years.
it appears some think a high score is the be-all and end-all of a game titles legacy.
when really the score is a residual outcome of the spirit of fun competition of humans testing their merits against a bunch of cleverly orchestrated 1s and 0s.

whatever avenue currently available that keeps people interacting in the pixelated medium of classic arcade games, is a worthy thing in my opinion. 

[Howard_Casto]

Oh I don't care about high scores at all.  AT ALL.  I'm from the NES era... high scores were over by then... You had fun via playing the game and how good you were came from how far you got in the game. 

I'm not sure what you mean though.  High scores have absolutely nothing to do with a game's legacy, it has to do with game PLAYERS legacy.  Who currently holds the world record on Donkey Kong has no bearing on the historical significance of the game.

That being said, the highest score in the world is akin to a world record and I can see some merit in this and wanting to keep it documented.  No pbj, not gold plates, but maybe something that sticks around longer than 7 years?  Imagine in sports stats just disappeared and there were no longer any record of them after a few seasons... that is what you are suggesting.

In this digital world we live in, books are kind of obsolete but yeah books would be good. 

[spoot]

So, what, we're supposed to carve high scores into golden plates and store them in caves in the desert or something?  C'mon.

Yes, and then it must be blessed by the clergy in the area.

[ark_ader]

High scores have to be verified.  That takes resources that cost money.  Embedding a mechanism into a fork of mame to resolve system integrity and security to provide this information is crucial for success.

The security mechanism can be added into MAME without too much effort.  Also this mechanism can report how many games are being used, types, etc.

If the mentality of the project is preservation, then an auditing system for end user participation is not only feasible,  but a requirement for QA and research.

SL?  Not a fight but a bit of playful banter.

[Howard_Casto]

Well that's what I was talking about in the "requires time and money" part.  Yeah on the client end of things, setting up the anti-cheat stuff is a breeze, but you need some sort of a server to send the scores to, and having some human eyes look at the scores wouldn't hurt either. 

BUT if done this way all the clerical work of an organization like Twin Galaxies is already done for them, so that would help tremendously. 

[ChadTower]

The only scores I have ever really cared about are my own.  Hell I compete in the ACAM tourney and still don't care about other peoples' scores.  I just want to know that I am getting better at any given game.

[pbj]

So XBLA leader boards were up for as long as 7 years for some titles, and that's not long enough?  Meh.  Twin Galaxies has never had a system last that long, it basically disappeared for 20 years and dusted off the same scores from their glory days in the early 80s.

[1500points]

Did anyone take note that http://www.1337loungelive.com/ covered a 23 hour Endurance run on Robotron to 100 million points last Friday?

It hit the front page of TwitchTV and garnered about 200,000 views.  Brand new folks were exposed, beyond the normal Classic Arcade Gaming crowd.

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic gameplay event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?
TwitchTV, the new MTV for a multi-billion dollar industry of gamers?

look beyond the pages of a 30 year old list of scores, and see the sun rising, folks.....

[ark_ader]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

[1500points]

ha ha, I got a kick out of Jace doing a tongue in cheek rant about the fact that modern gamers with an NES controller don't know what real games are like and would get whipped at the arcade classics.

[Howard_Casto]

Did anyone take note that http://www.1337loungelive.com/ covered a 23 hour Endurance run on Robotron to 100 million points last Friday?

It hit the front page of TwitchTV and garnered about 200,000 views.  Brand new folks were exposed, beyond the normal Classic Arcade Gaming crowd.

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic gameplay event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?
TwitchTV, the new MTV for a multi-billion dollar industry of gamers?

look beyond the pages of a 30 year old list of scores, and see the sun rising, folks.....

Well did you also see the story about the league of legends team manager that ran off with all of that money?  Professional gaming is a scary thing because nobody knows how the hell to manage it. 

[Howard_Casto]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

[1500points]

that makes sense. To be honest, we bought a second hand NES about 10 years ago so the kids could play the precursor to gamecube and all that other stuff they were playing.  it lasted about a month, then they tired of it and it got sold for a dollar in a garage sale.

One game that is still a pain for me is Ghosts and Goblins, how people are good at that is beyond me.
I was 12 when Defender came out, didn't even begin to have the rationale thinking or hierarchical strategies to deal with a complexity like that....still whoops my behind.

I see on the 1337 lounge that there is a marathon scheduled for a JAWS console game this weekend. never heard of it before.

[SavannahLion]

I think I have JAWS buried somewhere in a box from three moves ago. Bought it sans box/manual and pre-AOL. I haven't the foggiest what you're supposed to do in that game.

[Howard_Casto]

I think I have JAWS buried somewhere in a box from three moves ago. Bought it sans box/manual and pre-AOL. I haven't the foggiest what you're supposed to do in that game.

If it's the NES version:

Survive the boredom longer than anyone else.  You do a bunch of dives... they are tedious, eventually jaws shows up, so you whoop on him a bit... rinse and repeat. 
I do believe that there is some sort of ending eventually, but if I remember correctly it's super lame... like you kill Jaws on the overhead map or something stupid like that.

There was also a PS2 game where you played as Jaws and the goal was to munch on beach goers and wreck stuff... still kind of lame, but much more fun.   

See Ghosts and Goblins was hard, but it was hard due to bad coding.  I don't count those.  You see the game uses truly random enemy logic... that's a big no-no.  You want to always give the player a situation to get through an area without getting hit.  Due to random spawn points and attack movements, this isn't always possible with GnG.  If you look up play through guides for the game you'll find that some of the only ways to get through certain portions (particularly the tower) is to take advantage of bugs in the game logic.  So while you can certainly argue that it is a classic, I argue that it was a broken piece of crap, only we didn't know any better.  Now subsequent sequels fix a lot of these issues and offer a fair challenge.  I think they were still pulling that crap on super GNG though.

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.  I think the major thing I've noticed from my youth is a change in the perception of time.  When I was little it seemed like I was on these games for months trying to finish them.   Now I can usually do it in an afternoon. 

[ark_ader]

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

[DaveMMR]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

Different for me: games I used to beat easily as a kid give me trouble now. Though I think it's more about giving these games less of my attention. I used to have too much time and too few games. Now the opposite is true.

And "Nintendo Hard" is still a relevant term considering nowadays games do a lot more hand-holding. Even if you find it easy, it's still a fact that NES games didn't pull any punches. Nowadays you have generous save points and a road map to your goals, compared to NES games where you were lucky if your game had a password system and didn't require a subscription to Nintendo Power to make any sort of progress. And don't even get me started on games like Solomon's Key that just seem needlessly cruel in later levels. 

And here's my obligatory link to TV Tropes - a list of "Nintendo Hard" games (divided by category): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard. Have fun!   

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

Don't know if you were just being sarcastic but there are quite a few titles - legit licensed games, mind you, not just titles like "Bubble Bath Babes" or "Cheetahman II" - that many collectors with shallow pockets have trouble getting their hands on.  Suffice to say, an entire set of NES games is very hard to achieve.   

EDIT: (And then I suddenly realize you're probably referring to ROM files....)

[Howard_Casto]

Well again, I don't count games that were poorly designed.  Exploration is certainly important, and modern games seem to be lost on that fact BUT if it's impossible to know what to do in a game without consulting guide books I would argue that it isn't hard, rather it's just a crappy game.  I think the best example I can give is one of the Castlevania games  (The third I think?).  There's that one portion in the game where you have to go to a dead end, equip this obscure crystal item and kneel for 10 seconds to proceed.  The clue in the game is poorly translated so it isn't of any help.  So yeah, that game isn't hard, it just has issues. 

I mean I look at a modern game like Assassin's Creed, and the enemies are so tiny and look so similar that without the goal/map/eagle vision system, I don't think the games would be playable. 

I just give this particular issue as a specific example because if you look at the list of features you linked to, more than half of them are just design/programming issues. 

Maybe "Nintendo Bad" is a better term?  I mean I hate to use it... I think the old NES had the highest ratio of quality games to crap than any other system, BUT designers were still learning back then, so a lot of mistakes were made. 

I'm not saying that there weren't hard games on the NES, there were quite a few, but there are still hard games today... they just don't sell well because these new generations of gamers are big babies.  Back in the day if you couldn't figure out a level you kept at it and hoped that in a month or so it'd be featured in Nintendo power.  Now kids give up and immediately consult gamefaqs. 

[1500points]

this is slightly askew to the topic but yesterday someone showed me the retrouprising website where you can play any emulated game from Atari to arcade to nes, etc.  right from their site.
the setting adjustments are coded out so you can't adjust them in mame, but you can adjust the key settings.
when you are done with a good game, you get to upload it immediately to their scoreboard (says someone reviews the game, but I don't know what that means).

I never knew about this before, but it is just cool as can be.  looks like it has been around awhile, too.

[DaveMMR]

Well again, I don't count games that were poorly designed.  Exploration is certainly important, and modern games seem to be lost on that fact BUT if it's impossible to know what to do in a game without consulting guide books I would argue that it isn't hard, rather it's just a crappy game.  I think the best example I can give is one of the Castlevania games  (The third I think?).  There's that one portion in the game where you have to go to a dead end, equip this obscure crystal item and kneel for 10 seconds to proceed.  The clue in the game is poorly translated so it isn't of any help.  So yeah, that game isn't hard, it just has issues. 

You're referring to Castlevania II: Simon's Quest. It was probably designed to sell Nintendo Power (it graced the cover of Issue #2) with the intentionally misleading clues by the townsfolk and the aforementioned obscure puzzles.  It's basically the oddball of the series. And yeah, that's the only one I ever beat of the originals (i.e. not the modern 'Metrovania' entries.)   
 
And yes, you're right about most difficulty coming from design and/or programming issues (e.g. Ninja Gaiden had a glitch where it kicked you back two levels after dying towards the end; the programmers kept that glitch in on purpose.) Also, some of these games were modeled after the coin-op counterparts (read: not designed to be won without a LOT of quarters.) By the time the 16-bit era rolled around, there was definitely more of an effort to make games winnable with a healthy, balanced challenge. Though I still stick to the term "Nintendo Hard" because many of these hard games are still quite good even if it hands your ass to you on a regular basis, fairly or otherwise.
 

[pbj]

I think the old NES had the highest ratio of quality games to crap than any other system

5 good games out of hundreds?  Awesome ratio.

[Howard_Casto]

Hopefully you are trolling.  I would guestimate that there are 50 to 100 good games on the NES.  It was a fantastic system. 

[pbj]

Excitebike
Punchout
Mario 1-3
Zelda

So, okay, I was wrong.  6.  Done.

[DaveMMR]

Excitebike
Punchout
Mario 1-3
Zelda

So, okay, I was wrong.  6.  Done.

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

[ChadTower]

Baseball Stars and Tecmo Bowl FTW.

[pbj]

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

Nobody buys any of those when they get a wild hair to run out and buy an NES for fun.  (Unless they're from BYOAC and we're already weird and don't count)

I forgot Contra.  So, 7.

[DaveMMR]

Zelda 2, Castlevania 1-3, Mega Man 1-6, Duck Tales, Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, Cobra Triangle, RC Pro Am, Rad Racer, Gradius, Life Force, Blaster Master, Ninja Gaiden 1-3, Blades of Steel, Tetris, Batman, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Hudson's Adventure Island, Arkanoid.... I could just go on and on, but there are plenty of "good" games, as well as "great" - and a surprisingly large amount of even "above average".

Nobody buys any of those when they get a wild hair to run out and buy an NES for fun.  (Unless they're from BYOAC and we're already weird and don't count)

I forgot Contra.  So, 7.

And Super C, so 8.  And if people don't care about anything else but those 6,7,8 then they're wasting their money on an NES and should leave it for people who actually will appreciate the console. 

[Howard_Casto]

I would have a hard time making a list of bad games actually.  I mean the LJN garbage and the unlicensed games, but even the worst of the nes games I would consider "not bad". 

I mean if nothing else this is byoac...  all of the arcade titles of that age, the best ports were on the NES. 


Just adding a couple to the list...

The double Dragon games
Kung-fu
Gi Joe Games
Kirby
Metal Gear
the TMNT games
Bad Dudes
Robocop
Gyromite (yes rob sucked, but the game was good)

I'm actually drawing a blank because a lot of my favorites were already listed, but typically on the NES when someone mentions a game I remember liking it. 

[Fursphere]

There is something like 578 games on the "official" Hyperspin XML for NES.

I can spin that wheel randomly and be happy with at least half the games on there.  Yes, there are some HORRIBLE games on the NES too.... 

[pbj]

Now we've gone from 50-100 good games to 300.  Neat.

 

[ark_ader]

And take a closer look they have around the clock coverage of any Epic game play event or discussion....anyone smelling what's cooking?

So the general public is finally finding out that classic gaming is difficult and addictive, with rewarding game play, that requires more skill than the modern day shooters?

Say it isn't so.   

Hmm.. Robotron and a few of the arcade classics being the exception, I've been finding that games I found difficult in my youth aren't at all difficult now.  I'm honestly thinking that "Nintendo hard" is a myth.  I got Ducktales remastered yesterday thinking I was in for a challenge.  Now while the game was enjoyable, the latest NSMBU game was harder than this thing.  Even with "hard pogo" turned on (the nes style controls) I had no trouble clearing the game in about an hour and a half.  This version of the game gives unlimited lives, but I think I died twice? I've been going back and playing similar "hard" games like ninja gaiden and the like, and I've yet to find one really hard.... except battletoads.

I think the problem was I was 10 when it was released.  I was 7 when Metroid came out, ect....  I think this is the perception that skews the difficulty level as well.  Most people who played the NES and these classic console games were fairly young when they did.  Anything is hard to a kid.

Different for me: games I used to beat easily as a kid give me trouble now. Though I think it's more about giving these games less of my attention. I used to have too much time and too few games. Now the opposite is true.

And "Nintendo Hard" is still a relevant term considering nowadays games do a lot more hand-holding. Even if you find it easy, it's still a fact that NES games didn't pull any punches. Nowadays you have generous save points and a road map to your goals, compared to NES games where you were lucky if your game had a password system and didn't require a subscription to Nintendo Power to make any sort of progress. And don't even get me started on games like Solomon's Key that just seem needlessly cruel in later levels. 

And here's my obligatory link to TV Tropes - a list of "Nintendo Hard" games (divided by category): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard. Have fun!   

The NES has a HUGE library, larger than any other console except maybe the ps2.... I really need to start collecting again and go through all of these games that nobody has ever heard of.

I think nearly everyone has the entire set.  I agree there is a lot of titles to go through.

Don't know if you were just being sarcastic but there are quite a few titles - legit licensed games, mind you, not just titles like "Bubble Bath Babes" or "Cheetahman II" - that many collectors with shallow pockets have trouble getting their hands on.  Suffice to say, an entire set of NES games is very hard to achieve.   

EDIT: (And then I suddenly realize you're probably referring to ROM files....)

 

I have to count them but I am sure I have over 500 NES games, including some rare ones and some others that looks a bit cheesy.  I do not see the point collecting carts.  Unless you have one of those huge lofts going waste, the stuff will be boxed, bagged and stuck in the attic until your Will is read.   

[DaveMMR]

I have to count them but I am sure I have over 500 NES games, including some rare ones and some others that looks a bit cheesy.  I do not see the point collecting carts.  Unless you have one of those huge lofts going waste, the stuff will be boxed, bagged and stuck in the attic until your Will is read.   

Do you have 500 actual NES games or 500 ROMs? Because if it's the former, and you think they're pointless, why are you holding onto them instead of putting them on eBay (or better yes, shipping them to me for free?)

[SavannahLion]

I would have a hard time making a list of bad games actually.  I mean the LJN garbage and the unlicensed games, but even the worst of the nes games I would consider "not bad".

Fair enough, but are you actually saying that games like Elevator Action (I'm sorry, I hate that game), JAWS and Deadly Towers are actually, "not bad"?

Don't get me wrong, I like the NES games. But I like my NES games. The ones I selectively chose when I bought them way back when. Now that we have access to the entire NES library, I look at the bulk of NES games I didn't buy and I'm just reminded as to why I didn't buy them back then (as opposed to now when I would buy them as a collector). Even accounting for the era and my own changes in perception, I would have to say that the percentage of crap titles on that console is roughly the same as the number of crap titles on nearly any other main stream console post ATARI.

[Howard_Casto]

Jaws is a LJN produced game, like I said, those are garbage.

Elevator Action is pretty fun... it's short, but earlier titles were like that.  Deadly Towers was actually the best selling game of it's day.  I think it's just "ok" but apparently I'm in the minority on that. 

There are certainly mediocre games on the console, but due to the short length of nes-era games there is still fun to be had in those.  There are very few bad ones though.  Now the SNES and beyond is another story, but the NES had a pretty solid library with the exceptions I previously mentioned.  My point was if you pull a random NES game out of a yard sale the odds are you'll enjoy it.  With other consoles, including Nintendo consoles, the odds aren't always in your favor.

[ark_ader]

I have to count them but I am sure I have over 500 NES games, including some rare ones and some others that looks a bit cheesy.  I do not see the point collecting carts.  Unless you have one of those huge lofts going waste, the stuff will be boxed, bagged and stuck in the attic until your Will is read.   

Do you have 500 actual NES games or 500 ROMs? Because if it's the former, and you think they're pointless, why are you holding onto them instead of putting them on eBay (or better yes, shipping them to me for free?)

Roms  The way I migrate globally having such material gets too expensive to ship.  I had 200 nes carts in my old collection that ended up at my local oxfam shop.