What is going on at Twin Galaxies?

[WhereEaglesDare]

The site has been down for about two weeks now.  Does anyone know what is happening over there?  Says server updates, but it shouldn't take this long for some updates. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

This is what I can gather...

A few weeks ago the website was under a DDOS attack which caused the firewall to freakout. During this time the technician in charge of the website and its server was on vacation. He was notified about the problem and said that when he got back from vacation he would fix it which would be about a week later. Attempts were made to make him do it from where ever he is but refused to do anything from a remote location and wanted to be at the server instead. Since then the tech has been very vague on when he would repair the server and has actually stopped replying to emails and phone calls. Now before this was happening apparently there have been attempts to purchase Twin Galaxies from the current owner but all these offers were refused. I am not sure if those business deals falling through had anything to do with it but one can only guess. http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,4925.0.html

[saint]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

[ChadTower]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

First, the battles over ownership.  Then, the haxx0ring.  Then the politics and drama.


Yep, pretty much the arcade hobbyist playlist step by step.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Not getting enough attention?  Why did you drag this garbage here?

Because I only ever use it for console high scores. I've been trying to beat the After Burner high score for a while now.  I have also sat a few Sega High Scores.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Yikes. Politics and drama in the arcade scene, who wuddathunkit?

First, the battles over ownership.  Then, the haxx0ring.  Then the politics and drama.


Yep, pretty much the arcade hobbyist playlist step by step.

I always thought it was a non profit company, since 99% of the staff is supposedly volunteers.  This really sucks, but with some many people investing so much TIME of their lives for nothing but recognition, things can get hairy when that recognition isn't given in a way that the volunteer might like.

Is there another, maybe even better, scoreboard out there?

[Well Fed Games]

This is why I don't submit any scores to Twin Galaxies.

That, and my scores are really, really low. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Windjammers is awesome. Sometimes you gotta harass them unfortunately.

[sharpfork]

I think PBJ's new sig should be:

"I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers."

 

[WhereEaglesDare]

I think PBJ's new sig should be:

"I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers."

 

It's got to be official before he starts bragging to EVERYONE. PBJ did you use WOLF-MAME for your recording?

[ChadTower]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Last I checked I still held the world record on Clockwork Knight for the Saturn for mostly that reason.  It's not a nuisance score, I completed the game, but it wasn't a particularly awesome score for having done so.  I still have trouble believing someone sat there and spent three hours reviewing the VHS I sent them.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I actually submitted a few nuisance scores and they wouldn't add them to the list.  Stuff like playing Windjammers for 30 seconds and submitting a 900 point score.

I did that so when dipshits go around bragging about how "I'm the number 7 player on Kangaroo" I can go, well, I'm 4th best in the world on Windjammers.

Loosing sleep at night, huh?



Last I checked I still held the world record on Clockwork Knight for the Saturn for mostly that reason.  It's not a nuisance score, I completed the game, but it wasn't a particularly awesome score for having done so.  I still have trouble believing someone sat there and spent three hours reviewing the VHS I sent them.

[sharpfork]

They are moving above my local barcade:

http://patrickscottpatterson.com/CultureTwinGalaxies

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-1up/187098864646679?fref=ts

http://the-1up.com/twin-galaxies/

[WhereEaglesDare]

Now they're dead. They started charging people for submissions and a lot of people are really upset that they haven't been verifies in months. The website is gone and the scoreboard is gone. 

[Howard_Casto]

I mentioned this over at Kotaku (and I thought here) when they first announced it.  You can't charge for submissions to world records, it's sort of immoral because it means only people who can afford to continuously re-submit scores can maintain a world record and people that might normally try for a record might become disinterested due to the fees. 

Long story short the list would need to have an asterisk next to the names because you'd have to wonder if the top score really is the top score.  I don't think they were asking for a crazy amount of money, but it's more the principal of the thing.  If they needed money for maintaining the  scores they could have sold merch, or gotten it other ways.

Something like this really needs to remain free and although I'm sad to see TG go, if they can't afford to maintain the system then they really shouldn't be doing it in the first place. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Right but it was working before 1up bought it. I know a few of the volunteer refs and they loved doing it. They all got released of their duties, but still. Now I'm a three time world champion with nowhere to reference.

[ark_ader]

Right so does anyone have a copy of the scores and if they do why not host them on this site.  I am sure Saint wouldn't mind the extra advertisement revenue.

[1500points]

a mostly complete backup of scores is hosted at champow/retrouprising.
if you are a member of their forum, there is a thread that pointed out the whole spreadsheet of TG's scoreboard was posted on some wiki, and a recent copy is available for download. not all that large as you'd think.

[ark_ader]

a mostly complete backup of scores is hosted at champow/retrouprising.
if you are a member of their forum, there is a thread that pointed out the whole spreadsheet of TG's scoreboard was posted on some wiki, and a recent copy is available for download. not all that large as you'd think.

Great lets get it all together on a site and charge each person to list their high score.  That should make some money. 

[1500points]

ha, charging money for score submissions....that didn't work from the day they tried it. Even Guinness turned up a nose to the notion. he he he.

champow doesn't charge, and I can't think of anyone that ever has. there are lots of scoreboards out there. personally I think aurcade has a really neat interactive layout that could take hold.  highscore.com is quite efficient and easy.  then you have lots of grassroots boards for fun, most notably scoreground.com. the granddaddy of all the current online boards has to be MARP. isn't that the be all and end all of current online communities?

if you are into high scores, this is a rich era of communities in which to interact.

[Howard_Casto]

This might very well be true, but TG was "recognized" as the "official" high score system for arcade and console games.  Mostly due to their high level mainstream exposure. 

In order to replace that, a site/organization would have to emerge with high visibility and a good reputation. 

People thought 1up could do this and I hate to break it to them, but 1up is out to make money while keeping scores to such a  niche hobby decidedly drains more money than it makes.  It was doomed to fail from the start.  Keeping scores, like practically everything else in this hobby is a labor of love and people shouldn't get into it for monetary reasons.

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

1up could at least relinquish twin galaxies back to the volunteers. They tried, it failed, let someone that use to do it, do it again.

[pbj]

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

Yeah, it's called Xbox Live and only works with games that people in 2013 actually care about.

 

[Fursphere]

In this day and age I would like to see a digital equivalent.  Have MAME and other emulators enabled with a "submit high score" function.  Of course extreme anti-cheating code would have to be put in place so I don't know how do-able that would be.   

So basically an "always online" version of MAME - that constantly checks in to make sure there is nothing amiss.  Good in theory - but it costs money to host stuff like that.  And as soon as money gets involved - the copyright owners of all these games we're using will want their slice of the pie. 

MAMEHub had a shot - but damn that thing is bug riddled. and messy. 

[Howard_Casto]

I don't think it would be that hard actually.  There are ways to protect memory in windows making it difficult to access.  Take that and add random memory locations upon startup and on top of that only allow certain services/apps to run in the background and you would have something fairly secure. 

Yes hosting is always a problem unfortunately. 

Lol PBJ.... Games haven't had high scores since the mid-90s.  XBL achievements rarely have anything to do with how good you are at the game.   Regardless it isn't permanent.  Once the console is gone those leaderboards are gone as well.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

Well now thirty years worth of scores are gone.

[SavannahLion]

I don't think it would be that hard actually.  There are ways to protect memory in windows making it difficult to access.  Take that and add random memory locations upon startup and on top of that only allow certain services/apps to run in the background and you would have something fairly secure.

I don't think you've actually worked on the problem, you're just figuring it out from the arm chair. It is a constant cat and mouse game where you very quickly realize that in order to achieve said goal, you have to step over boundaries and on toes. Take a look at Punkbuster and VAC to get a better idea what has to go into something like that.

With emulation, as long as the system is isolated, cheating is virtually a non-issue. The only person being harmed is the cheater. That's why I find it amusing when game developers implement anti-cheat measures into games that have ZERO online capability. Locked saves states (MagicGate on PS2 for example), encrypted memory, protected execution, even amusing little messages hidden inside executables that only hackers would ever find. 

As soon as you introduce an online component, whether it's a "live" competition like Counter Strike or a score keeping ability like on Live, you introduce a real incentive for someone to cheat. To find some way to game the system with a little trickery. As soon as you introduce the first anti-cheat measure, someone will find a way around that. Then you get trapped in a constant patch<->break system. The amount of research involved in discovering not only software hacks and how to detect/evade them but hardware hacks as well. Not to mention the potential for serious false negatives and what you must do about them as well.

In the end, it isn't easy. More importantly, it isn't cheap. Developers have to eat too. Money has to be involved and that opens up a whole other can of worms.

I would think such efforts to create such system would be far better utilized in actually creating better game emulation.

My two cents. 

[ark_ader]

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Online gaming protection is to prevent circumvention of game code for unfair online play, and requires intervention by the user when installing said game to activate.  Same goes for reporting such as VAC.  The IP address of the offender is reported to Valve by the owner of the server, so that the ban can be implemented, then the offender has to go and get a new account and game.

Mame is a platform developed for playing classic games, not as preservation initially and could have mechanisms in place to prevent the use of cheats, but are enabled to assist in QA.  There is no mechanism to restrict the user from employing cheats in Mame, as well as creating mechanisms for preventing the use of distribution of game roms, which would defeat the purpose of playing classic games.  If Mame was for preservation then the playing of classic games would be enabled by the developers only for QA, and would be protected archivists under the DMCA.   

Two totally concepts there. 

Scores have to be witnessed before they are able to be implemented, therefore Mame or any supported emulator would have to display a telltale graphic to identify if a cheat was implemented.   

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah and I guess all the extensive memory hacking projects I've worked on over the past year or so don't count? 

I'm by no means an expert, I've barely started, but I am getting pretty competant at this.  Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

Most people aren't going to want to cheat for something like this...it's too obscure.  That being said mame and other emulators are wide open atm.... a little bit of cheat prevention as well as a verification system would be needed just to discourage the random joe on the net from planting a bunch of bogus scores for laughs. 

I'm kind of worried about MAME atm.... it seems to be fairly stagnant.  Off-topic but somewhat relevant.   I just think that in this stage of the game, adding features might be a great way to strum up interest again.  Maybe not this feature, but something. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

Online co op....

[pbj]

If we're gonna maintain this farce about how MAME isn't about playing games but "preserving classics" then things are right out the window when you add leader boards and online co-op.

I wasn't very pleased when Clay took down his "pinball repair guides" and started charging money for access.  I had made contributions with the understanding they'd be available freely.  Other things he ripped off verbatim from my posts on rec.games.pinball.  He wasn't monetizing it and I had posted it openly so no butthurt... but to yank it away and require donations?  Irritated me. 

Lot of MAME contributors wouldn't be happy with changes like what you're suggesting, I'd imagine.   

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

Right, but I think the point is that once you manipulate the fail safes and redundancies it can be done. Look at the multi million dollar software developers that get hacked all the time.

[ChadTower]

Right, but I think the point is that once you manipulate the fail safes and redundancies it can be done. Look at the multi million dollar software developers that get hacked all the time.

Let's not compare the target value of Microsoft to the target value of MAME.  Anything can be cracked with sufficient resources and effort.  The question is not can it be cracked.  The question is would enough people find it of sufficient value to put enough time and effort into the task?

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

[ark_ader]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

I could say the same about putting your referenced idea to paper.  Something that would preclude coding.  Yes I do not have time to hardcode anything, as I am currently working on my doctorate, but I am sure your paper would assist in creating a strategy, but it would be hard for you to research so I understand your lack of enthusiasm.

[SavannahLion]

If it was so easy to implement memory protection to avoid "hacking" then you would see more devs implement such measures. You don't.

Although anything is hackable, some of the memory protection/misdirection techniques employed by some of the modern games are frustrating enough to deal with that  it would take someone very talented and very driven to crack them for one game, much less the thousands of games in mame.  The stuff isn't terribly hard to implement either.

You're saying that implementing individual anti-cheat measures for thousands of games isn't terribly hard? Then why don't you stop talking and implement them?

All it takes is one developer to break your counter measures and make the files available to the masses. You average Joe argument goes out the window along with your "easy" work.

What a load of bollocks.     It isn't terribly hard as long as you design it properly with redundancies and fail-safes.   

IF the game was developed from the ground up. We're talking about MAME which is emulating games that were never intended to be online and whose piracy counter measures (if any) were already circumvented running in a framework written with virtually no anti-cheat measures at all. Irregardless, multi-million dollar companies have a hard time keeping keeping their "easy" code secure online. IF  you and Howard think what I'm saying is a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, put your money where your mouth is and build the online SECURE anti-cheat MAME you think is so easy to implement. Build a Twin Galaxy replacement with it then come back a year or two later and we'll talk then.

How about you write a paper on the merits of your argument?  If you feel so strongly that our beliefs in securing "public" code is complete hubris. 

Just as I thought. Not something you can just slam out eh? What's the matter, not in the right mindset? Is that code that "isn't terribly hard" to implement too hard to implement? Not enough time? Gota pay rent? What's the excuse?

That was my point. Someone comes on and makes a statement to the effect of "it's not hard" without ever actually having done it. Really? Do it then. It's not that hard.

I could say the same about putting your referenced idea to paper.  Something that would preclude coding.  Yes I do not have time to hardcode anything, as I am currently working on my doctorate, but I am sure your paper would assist in creating a strategy, but it would be hard for you to research so I understand your lack of enthusiasm.

Oh turn it around and put the onus on me. Strange, I NEVER said it was easy. With a doctorate on the way I guess comprehension wasn't part of it?

Sure, I'll get right on that. I'm used to writing papers no one actually bothers to read.